The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions

[King Postwhore]

I thought progressive music can encapsulate all styles of music?!  When did DT say we are a prog metal band ect.....?

[bosk1]

When did DT say we are a prog metal band ect.....?

  Uh...pretty much since day 1. 

[King Postwhore]

When did DT say we are a prog metal band ect.....?

  Uh...pretty much since day 1. 

They've always talked about influences and never stated that they are just (this style of music) 

Labels are so silly anyway.  You and I know they are a prog rock band that also love metal.  We as fans love to label.  So nee ner, nee ner.

[rumborak]

If you go by what bands call themselves, they are all completely overturning music as we know it, defying all labels.
In reality though, DT is prog metal.

[King Postwhore]

And I agree that they are but DT when they came out never called themselves Prog Metal.  That label came after.

[BlobVanDam]

How many bands pioneering a subgenre label themselves as such? The great bands are more concerned with playing music than inventing labels. I find that the bands who define their own new subgenres usually don't deserve that status.
It's only in hindsight that these turning points of music are usually given these new labels. And that label for DT is prog metal.

[jakepriest]

DT is obviously djent.

[Train of Naught]

How many bands pioneering a subgenre label themselves as such? The great bands are more concerned with playing music than inventing labels. I find that the bands who define their own new subgenres usually don't deserve that status.
It's only in hindsight that these turning points of music are usually given these new labels. And that label for DT is prog metal.

That's how the beautiful art of djent was born.

[hefdaddy42]

"rock opera" and "progressive metal" aren't even the same category of thing.

THIS THING CANNOT POSSIBLY BE AN AUTOMOBILE.

IT IS CLEARLY BLUE.

[Podaar]

The only thing I have to add to the current conversation is that, I think TA would be infinitely more interesting, to me, if it had some truly brootal passages in the same vein of the Test That Stumped Them All.

[Ben_Jamin]

One main problem I've noticed others saying is the structures. Mainly the intros starting off soft. I don't got a problem with it, I actually enjoy them.

I knew The Astonishing would divide the fan base a bit.

[CDrice]

DT is obviously djent.

DjenT

As for The Astonishing, I'd compare it to Octavarium in term of heaviness. Not super heavy as a whole, a lot of softer sections, but still a lot of rocking moments spread throughout. The only thing that Octavarium has that The Astonishing doesn't is a fast-paced song who is heavy all the way through.

[Lucien]

I remember saying on youtube how Our New World was some kind of pop metal song and that it deserved to get radio play, and some guy argued with me for a good while about how Dream Theater was only a prog metal band and basically how I don't know anything about music and should stop talking lol

[chaossystem]

When did DT say we are a prog metal band ect.....?

  Uh...pretty much since day 1. 

They've always talked about influences and never stated that they are just (this style of music) 

Labels are so silly anyway.  You and I know they are a prog rock band that also love metal.  We as fans love to label.  So nee ner, nee ner.

There have been a lot of bands-such as Black Sabbath and Motley Crue-who have rejected the label of "heavy metal" for themselves.

As for DT, if anyone was to ask me to "define" I would say that they are a band that is influenced by MANY different kinds of music, and heavy metal just happens to be ONE of them.

[SebastianPratesi]

Regarding the style/genre conversation, I thought this would be of interest (sorry if it's already been posted):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X39qjhg165w

[Dublagent66]

It somewhat baffles me how something that is considered to be a rock opera is somehow progressive metal.

You do realize that "progressive" and "metal" both fall under the very broad umbrella of "rock," right?

Yes, and I'm sure you realize that metal and rock are also considered to be separate genres or sub genres if you will.  An album with a rock opera theme can have elements of progressive metal and still not be considered a progressive metal album as a whole.  I believe that was the point I was trying to make.

Wait, what?  No!  You have it precisely backwards.  Metal and rock are not separate genres.  Metal is a type of rock, and has been since its inception.  I have no idea where the idea that they are somehow separate comes from.  And although quibbling over labels is kinda silly and counterproductive, I'm still not sure how the Astonishing could not be considered a "progressive metal" album.  It is in every sense of the word.  As already pointed out, "progressive metal" and "rock opera" are not in any way mutually exclusive.  They are different types of descriptions altogether, and can easily describe the same album (just as they are both used to describe albums from other bands besides Dream Theater).

Well, if quibbling over labels is counterproductive, then I guess we're all guilty of that. Maybe I misused the word "genre" and I'm not an expert in all the different labels that music is given.  That doesn't mean I can't distinguish one type of music from another.  Nevertheless, they are different types of descriptions as you mentioned simply because that's what they are, different.  That's the separation I was talking about.  I don't believe that a rock opera theme and progressive metal are even remotely close to each other.  TA simply isn't heavy enough to be considered a metal album in any descriptive form.  It falls under the "rock" descriptive and leans even more toward "soft rock" but not "metal" or "progressive metal" for that matter.  For a band that has been predominantly "progressive metal" through out most of their catalog, TA is probably the polar opposite of that representation.  If that happens to be an unpopular opinion, then I came to the right place.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Rock opera doesn't really mean anything about how heavy or light it is though, it just means there's a narrative to it.

[erwinrafael]

Rock opera does not have any real limits to musical style, as I have heard rock operas go from hard rock to heavy metal. Prog metal and rock opera do not contradict each other.

Now as to whether DT is prog metal enough, well, that would be up to the listener's appreciation. If you take Images and Words, Falling Into Infinity, or SFAM as comparison, I think TA is comparable.

[Dream Team]

People that listen to metal all the time don't realize how heavy parts of TA are. Try playing TWS or TPTD for your mother or grandmother or some Bieber fan girl and watch their reaction.

[chaossystem]

I agree.

There are parts of it that are PLENTY heavy enough.

Also parts of it that are plenty DREAM THEATER enough.

[Darkstarshades]

MOB is incredibly heavy.

It actually could have been a TOT song.

[Prog Snob]

This album is no less heavy than Images and Words. As a matter of fact, I think there are a few heavier spots on TA that are heavier than anything on I & W.

[TAC]

This album is no less heavy than Images and Words. As a matter of fact, I think there are a few heavier spots on TA that are heavier than anything on I & W.

No question.

[erwinrafael]

I think the problem with Disc 2 that some people have but were not articulating is that in a big section of the disc, the heavy and the soft songs are lumped, instead of alternating.

Lump of heavy songs:

The Path That Divides
The Walking Shadow
My Last Farewell

Lump of soft songs:

Losing Faythe
Whispers on the Wind
Hymn of a Thousand Voices

[KevShmev]

Well, if quibbling over labels is counterproductive, then I guess we're all guilty of that. Maybe I misused the word "genre" and I'm not an expert in all the different labels that music is given.  That doesn't mean I can't distinguish one type of music from another.  Nevertheless, they are different types of descriptions as you mentioned simply because that's what they are, different.  That's the separation I was talking about. I don't believe that a rock opera theme and progressive metal are even remotely close to each other.  TA simply isn't heavy enough to be considered a metal album in any descriptive form.  It falls under the "rock" descriptive and leans even more toward "soft rock" but not "metal" or "progressive metal" for that matter.  For a band that has been predominantly "progressive metal" through out most of their catalog, TA is probably the polar opposite of that representation.  If that happens to be an unpopular opinion, then I came to the right place.

Just because you do not believe it does not mean it is not true.

Metal falls under the very broad rock umbrella (as I said already).

"Opera" in the rock sense means something of a conceptual and/or symphonic nature with a running narrative or story.

I know you won't agree, but you are pretty much arguing against what is commonly known as fact.

If you don't like TA, that is fine. I can see why it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but you are basically saying you expected something else and then are trying to argue that it's not something that it clearly is.

[red barchetta]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.

In reading through your recent posts for the first few days, it is pretty clear that the one showing a lack of respect is you.  You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you choose, and you are welcome to express those likes and dislikes here.  However, your constant baiting of others is not allowed here and needs to stop.  Consider this an official warning.

Really?  I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album.  And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla.  I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his.  Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr.  Your skin is as soft as DT last album

[Enigmachine]

Well, if quibbling over labels is counterproductive, then I guess we're all guilty of that. Maybe I misused the word "genre" and I'm not an expert in all the different labels that music is given.  That doesn't mean I can't distinguish one type of music from another.  Nevertheless, they are different types of descriptions as you mentioned simply because that's what they are, different.  That's the separation I was talking about. I don't believe that a rock opera theme and progressive metal are even remotely close to each other.  TA simply isn't heavy enough to be considered a metal album in any descriptive form.  It falls under the "rock" descriptive and leans even more toward "soft rock" but not "metal" or "progressive metal" for that matter.  For a band that has been predominantly "progressive metal" through out most of their catalog, TA is probably the polar opposite of that representation.  If that happens to be an unpopular opinion, then I came to the right place.

Just because you do not believe it does not mean it is not true.

Metal falls under the very broad rock umbrella (as I said already).

"Opera" in the rock sense means something of a conceptual and/or symphonic nature with a running narrative or story.

I know you won't agree, but you are pretty much arguing against what is commonly known as fact.

If you don't like TA, that is fine. I can see why it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but you are basically saying you expected something else and then are trying to argue that it's not something that it clearly is.

This is true. Also along with the fact that most (apart from one) Ayreon albums are Rock Operas and yet are thought to be Progressive Metal apart from 'The Dream Sequencer'. Most of their albums (particularly The Final Experiment, Into the Electric Castle and The Human Equation) hover around the heaviness of TA.

[hefdaddy42]

I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his.

He didn't show any lack of respect.  He literally said this was an opinion he had never heard before. 

In what universe is that a lack of respect?

[Shooters1221]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it.

Well this is a new one.

It's funny how you can't respect other people's opinion.

In reading through your recent posts for the first few days, it is pretty clear that the one showing a lack of respect is you.  You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you choose, and you are welcome to express those likes and dislikes here.  However, your constant baiting of others is not allowed here and needs to stop.  Consider this an official warning.

Really?  I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album.  And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla.  I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his.  Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr.  Your skin is as soft as DT last album

[King Postwhore]

*Makes an agressive proclamation*

*Is sensitive when one responds*

I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?

[Prog Snob]

*Makes an agressive proclamation*

*Is sensitive when one responds*

I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?

Is he making cookies, because I am totally in the mood for some right now.

Really?  I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album.  And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla.  I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his.  Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr.  Your skin is as soft as DT last album

I think you're completely misconstruing everyone's comments. For the most part, we're all a respectful group of people. Every so often someone will make a completely inappropriate comment, but you know right away it's inappropriate and disrespectful. If anyone is hostile here, it's you when people disagree with what you say. There's a way to discuss differing opinions without turning it into a mess. Nobody here has been blatantly disrespectful towards you. However, when you respond like someone has, you might incite aggression in others. Before you respond to someone's comment, think really hard about whether or not you truly believe this person was being disrespectful. If you have the slightest doubt then logic would tell you they weren't. This would be an example of a disrespectful comment after your too soft and too cheesy critique: "Well that's fucking stupid. You must have no brain." or "Maybe your mom should take you to get your hearing tested."

Get it?   

[King Postwhore]

My mistake worked perfectly for you as a metaphor. 

[Prog Snob]

My mistake worked perfectly for you as a metaphor. 

   

But now I want cookies.   

[red barchetta]

*Makes an agressive proclamation*

*Is sensitive when one responds*

I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?

Is he making cookies, because I am totally in the mood for some right now.

Really?  I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album.  And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla.  I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his.  Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr.  Your skin is as soft as DT last album

I think you're completely misconstruing everyone's comments. For the most part, we're all a respectful group of people. Every so often someone will make a completely inappropriate comment, but you know right away it's inappropriate and disrespectful. If anyone is hostile here, it's you when people disagree with what you say. There's a way to discuss differing opinions without turning it into a mess. Nobody here has been blatantly disrespectful towards you. However, when you respond like someone has, you might incite aggression in others. Before you respond to someone's comment, think really hard about whether or not you truly believe this person was being disrespectful. If you have the slightest doubt then logic would tell you they weren't. This would be an example of a disrespectful comment after your too soft and too cheesy critique: "Well that's fucking stupid. You must have no brain." or "Maybe your mom should take you to get your hearing tested."

Get it?   

You're so kind for being so explicite. I'm around in other topics, the exchanges between members and myself are constructive and creative. Here? I pointed out something. It did not please you.

[Prog Snob]

*Makes an agressive proclamation*

*Is sensitive when one responds*

I wonder how he would react if one responded baking the same way to him?

Is he making cookies, because I am totally in the mood for some right now.

Really?  I haven't done much, just my opinions towards the album.  And when I was basically showing a negative aspect of it, I got a lot of "wow, that's new to me", "you just like to hate for no reason" bla, bla, bla.  I just said something about someone who does not appear to express appropriate respect towards other people opinion when they are the opposite of his.  Sorry if I'm not in your fan club and honestly if it takes only that to be kicked out, well go ahead Mr.  Your skin is as soft as DT last album

I think you're completely misconstruing everyone's comments. For the most part, we're all a respectful group of people. Every so often someone will make a completely inappropriate comment, but you know right away it's inappropriate and disrespectful. If anyone is hostile here, it's you when people disagree with what you say. There's a way to discuss differing opinions without turning it into a mess. Nobody here has been blatantly disrespectful towards you. However, when you respond like someone has, you might incite aggression in others. Before you respond to someone's comment, think really hard about whether or not you truly believe this person was being disrespectful. If you have the slightest doubt then logic would tell you they weren't. This would be an example of a disrespectful comment after your too soft and too cheesy critique: "Well that's fucking stupid. You must have no brain." or "Maybe your mom should take you to get your hearing tested."

Get it?   

You're so kind for being so explicite. I'm around in other topics, the exchanges between members and myself are constructive and creative. Here? I pointed out something. It did not please you.

Your original post regarding this topic was not constructive or creative. This was your comment: "It's way too soft and so cheezy.  It looks like Jordan and James wrote it."  That was neither constructive nor creative. You didn't expound on your statement. It was just that, a statement, so why should anyone in return give you a long thought out response?