The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions

[Prog Snob]

For me, it's harder to compare the lyrics of a project like The Astonishing or even Scenes From a Memory, since the purpose of the lyrics on those projects are slightly different: to move along the plot of the overall story.  In that vein, the lyrics of both are fine - nothing stellar, but not too much awful, either.

Yeah, that too.  The point has been made many times over that lyrical context matters.  I may subjectively prefer deep symbolism and a lot of literary and poetic devices, such as the typical KM lyrics, or some of the lyrics to Voices, for example.  But those types of devices are not appropriate in songs where the lyrics are meant to be a prose narrative.  That style calls for a different type of writing.

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.


That's what I find puts me off. SFAM was tons better as far as concept album lyrics go, to my tastes.

That is because those were written as concept albums. TA is written as if it is a musical acted onstage.

This.  Even though the forms seem similar, they aren't the same thing.

The way I understand it is that a rock opera is a story being told through music, whereas a concept album is when a group of songs follow a similar theme. I know this is very vague explanation but there aren't too many things dividing the two. The Astonishing is a rock opera, where Six Degrees could be considered a concept piece. That's probably the most familiar explanation I could give for people here to understand.

[ariich]

I think most places define a rock opera as a concept album that (1) has a clear narrative, and (2) has dialogue for most or all of the lyrics.

But within that there is plenty of scope for variety. A "rock opera" concept album could be largely the internal narrative of one or two characters, pretty much like those you mentioned. Whereas in form, TA bears much more resemblance to a stage musical, and is deliberately meant as such, with a cast of characters and everything.

Now, that says nothing about the quality of the lyrics for any individual listener, merely that it is a different thing and so some of those comparisons are pretty meaningless.

But then I always prefer to judge things on their own rather than by comparison with other things. I think I'm a little uncommon in that regard.

[bosk1]

The song is great. I have no problem with that at all. Like I said, a few lines in a song aren't going to ruin it for me. It's just discussion, that's all. People get so sensitive over an opinion.    Sheesh

No, I get it.  It's just a pet peeve of mine when people just throw out a lyric as supposedly an indisputable objective example of "bad lyrics" as if that just somehow settles it and makes the lyric poor.  You probably didn't mean it that way, but like I said...pet peeve.  Personally, I don't feel that DT writes poor lyrics, ever.  There are certainly lyrics I do not like.  There are even occasions where I dare say I have come up with alternate lines that I think may have been improvements (I have a specific line on this very album).  But I would never try to say they are just objectively poorly written. 

Bosky, Bosky, Bosky. It's just my opinion. I could probably close my eyes and point to a dozen instances where people were literally and blatantly bashing the band. I wasn't even close to that. Like you just said, there have been instances where you have come up with a better alternative to a lyric. That's all I was implying, that I felt it could have been written with a bit more thought, but maybe he was going for the obviousness and cliche.

I know.  Like I said, it just happens to be a pet peeve.  Your post wasn't necessarily intended to be in the same vein as those.  I was just a matter of your post happening to be there.  Innocent, your only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Prog Snob]

I think most places define a rock opera as a concept album that (1) has a clear narrative, and (2) has dialogue for most or all of the lyrics.

But within that there is plenty of scope for variety. A "rock opera" concept album could be largely the internal narrative of one or two characters, pretty much like those you mentioned. Whereas in form, TA bears much more resemblance to a stage musical, and is deliberately meant as such, with a cast of characters and everything.

Now, that says nothing about the quality of the lyrics for any individual listener, merely that it is a different thing and so some of those comparisons are pretty meaningless.

But then I always prefer to judge things on their own rather than by comparison with other things. I think I'm a little uncommon in that regard.

That seems reasonable enough. As far as the lyrics, it's all subjective to me. If I say something about the band, it's because of how I feel, not because of how I think it should be. I don't usually criticize Dream Theater's lyrics. As a matter of fact, those lines in A Better Life are the first lyrical passages I've ever expressed distaste for. Well, that and all of Never Enough.

[BlobVanDam]

And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.

Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.

Those particular lines still make me cringe. And the melody for that section is only average too. I think they could have made the same point without it feeling like it's just filling up space.
Then there are other parts such as "my music player" where the amazingness of the music more than compensates for the lyrics.
In general I don't care about lyrics much, but this album has many moments where they're distracting. And I didn't even have a problem with any of the lyrics on BCASL. That said, for the most part the lyrics on TA are fine too.

[pantsofeternity]

If you're not very into musicals, I get why you would be annoyed by some of the lyrics in here. Musicals are known to make *everything* in life a singing moment (like doing the laundry), so you kind of have to be in that state of mind to enjoy 'em.

Whoa now, some musicals might be cheese, but there are plenty with excellent, thoughtful lyrics.  (And I would say the same of DT songs!)  I think lyric writing is not the band's strongest point -- not that their lyrics are consistently bad, just that they're not consistently excellent, and often if I'm feeling a song has one minor flaw, it's lyrical.  But their best lyrics are as good as it gets -- Beneath the Surface, for my money (YMMV).

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

If you're not very into musicals, I get why you would be annoyed by some of the lyrics in here. Musicals are known to make *everything* in life a singing moment (like doing the laundry), so you kind of have to be in that state of mind to enjoy 'em.

Whoa now, some musicals might be cheese, but there are plenty with excellent, thoughtful lyrics.  (And I would say the same of DT songs!)  I think lyric writing is not the band's strongest point -- not that their lyrics are consistently bad, just that they're not consistently excellent, and often if I'm feeling a song has one minor flaw, it's lyrical.  But their best lyrics are as good as it gets -- Beneath the Surface, for my money (YMMV).

I love musicals myself! I didn't make that comment under any negative light, I just said that in musicals it's not that common to find some thought provoking-metaphysical-reflexive-deep-I'llNeverBeOpenAgain lyrics like the ones DT fans seem to value the most.

And yeah, I'm with you. Beneath the Surface is an example of a well-written song with well-written lyrics that anyone can relate to. It's so beautiful!

[Lax]

As a french guy, I'm not offensed by relative "simplicity" of english text, but I think Victor Hugo made us prefer narrative/descriptive rather than direct speech.
For me here is the part that I would have changed :

"Please excuse me;
Sir, can you help me?
Where can I find this man?"
"Sorry, can't speak, someone is waiting"
"Yes, I understand."

If the answer was more useful I would have understand, but I've got the feeling "I've got to pee" would have sounded the same :/
I know this part is to emphasize the fact that she can't find arhys or gabriel in ravenskill

[Prog Snob]

And you're right regardless. The context for both songs are completely different. However, they just read as amateurish. That's all. We could compare them to the lyrics in TCOT which is also telling a story. I have no problem with those lyrics. There's something about that line in A Better Life that I just don't like.

Fair enough if you just don't like the line then. I guess it could be a number of things, like predictability (when you hear "Could things be any tougher?", you just know he's going to say yes), the mention of a name in 1st person or the cliche of "you bet your life!". I personally think things like this are offset by the strength of the melodies and the convincing way they are 'acted' out by JLB.

Those particular lines still make me cringe. And the melody for that section is only average too. I think they could have made the same point without it feeling like it's just filling up space.
Then there are other parts such as "my music player" where the amazingness of the music more than compensates for the lyrics.
In general I don't care about lyrics much, but this album has many moments where they're distracting. And I didn't even have a problem with any of the lyrics on BCASL. That said, for the most part the lyrics on TA are fine too.

I love the music during the "my music player" part. It sounds really trippy and ethereal. Those lyrics don't bother me as much as the others I was talking about.

[The Astonished]

"Brother, Can You Hear Me?" is a top 3 TA track, and Act 2 is criminally underrated.

[alexofsweden]

I just skip the whole album...

[Elaitch]

At this point I would enjoy the album more as an instrumental release because the story is incoherent, unengaging and frankly quite cheesy.

[erwinrafael]

Incoherent? I could understand how some would find it unengaging and cheesy (basically, it's not their cup of tea), but incoherent? Come on.

[King Postwhore]

I just skip the whole album...

[Dream Team]

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.

Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?

Nice point Tim, and I'm still waiting for energythief's response.

[Kotowboy]

I just skip the whole album...

I just imagine him inserting disc 1

skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip  skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip

removes Disc 1. Inserts Disc 2

  skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip

removes Disc 2.

[Prog Snob]

I just skip the whole album...

I just imagine him inserting disc 1

skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip  skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip

removes Disc 1. Inserts Disc 2

  skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip skip

removes Disc 2.

No, I think he means he skips around to the rhythm of the album.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, consider The Wall, or Operation: Mindcrime, or even American Idiot. Nothing in there is as straightforward and "story-telling" as The Astonishing, and I feel that the ambiguity is better. The fans have endless stuff to speculate on, the cheese factor is lower, the story isn't just handed to you on a silver platter - you have to invest time and work for it. It allows a deeper maturity to emerge, as people can find meaning in the lyrics outside the narrative. I will never be able to relate personally to most songs on The Astonishing, as the story is pushed so far forward the songs can't be about anything except the story.

Really? You can't relate to love, honor, respect, sorrow, jubilation, community?

For me it's not about the topics, but how they're written/handled.
For example, the love story between Gabriel and Faythe seemed superficial to me, maybe she just likes rebelling against her parents and going for the musician bad boy. At least Nafaryus knew this much in ANB. A lot of the other topics are just dealt with in ways that irk me personally.

[Elaitch]

Incoherent? I could understand how some would find it unengaging and cheesy (basically, it's not their cup of tea), but incoherent? Come on.

A fair amount of things go unexplained in the story (I'm aware that there's a more detailed version on the official website, but this is taking the album at face value). For example, what exactly were the NOMACs? I felt like it was supposed to be part of a critique from JP on today's music industry, but they were set up to be some sort of plot device and then kind of fell short of anything other than... filler? Another point is (spoilers ahead) the big reveal on the Nafaryus/Faythe arc when it turns out Nafaryus was somehow part of Faythe's "music player" or similar, however the name mentioned (Bug) that makes Faythe react has not occurred earlier in the lyrics, so that ended up feeling like a little messy for me. "Incoherent" might not be the right word, but suffice it to say that some pretty major parts of the story didn't flow together all that well. IMO, of course.

[BlobVanDam]

There's also the thing with Daryus going deaf from the scream.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The "bug" thing is an example of something that probably could have been written a little better. You absolutely need to read the detailed story write-up on DT's site to understand what that word means within the context of the story.

[rumborak]

There's also the thing with Daryus going deaf from the scream.

That whole section, yeah. Daryus goes deaf from a scream, but Faythe has headphones on so she's good. Gabriel then becomes Jesus and resurrects Faythe, because he's the Savior.
I think had they alluded to powers of that kind it would have worked, but up until then he's just a dude wanting to sing. Suddenly music being able to resurrect people is total Deus ex machina.

[CDrice]

It's like because music helps heal the pain and wounds we feel or something. It's like such a deep meaning man 

[ErHaO]

I am a person that often finds that dialouge in film, novels, and sound "too perfectly" written. I have seen dozens of art house films with "fantastic" dialouge in which every person behaves in a completely unnatural manner. Yes, it can be very intruiging when done right, but not every conversation needs to be a poem or have deep symbolism in the world of art. Same goes for happy music versus depressing music. Quite some people are quick to call happy/upbeat stuff total cheese and the dark, depressing moments beautiful touching art. But both represent legitimate aspects of the human psychology.

Rock operas (and definitely musicals) can be very literal and blatant in terms of dialouge, but so am I when I am talking to another person. Trying to make another person clear what my intentions/thoughts are is in fact mostly the whole purpose of having any conversation. I can see why people find certain lyrics cringy (for me it is the music player part that always gets me), but in general the way they were written on TA makes sense to me.

Not judging the actual story content here, btw. I agree it goes a bit too silly out of nowhere towards the end. In fact, I wish they went the route of Gabriels singing inspiring people to change their ways, keep the will to fight for their lives etc., instead of his voice functioning as the eagles in Lord of the Rings and have the healing power of Elven magic. (On a sidenote, I thought The Hunger Games with that Hanging Tree song was a great example of using a song symbolising a rebellion).

"Brother, Can You Hear Me?" is a top 3 TA track, and Act 2 is criminally underrated.

This track, along with Road to Revolution and the title track, have grown massively on me over time.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

There's also the thing with Daryus going deaf from the scream.

That whole section, yeah. Daryus goes deaf from a scream, but Faythe has headphones on so she's good. Gabriel then becomes Jesus and resurrects Faythe, because he's the Savior.
I think had they alluded to powers of that kind it would have worked, but up until then he's just a dude wanting to sing. Suddenly music being able to resurrect people is total Deus ex machina.

I pretty much agree with all of this, although I guess it doesn't bother me as much because, earlier on, Gabriel is referenced as a "god among us" and a "savior", so the intention all along was probably that he has some kind of magical power. They just didn't flesh it out enough in my opinion.

[Elaitch]

There's also the thing with Daryus going deaf from the scream.

That whole section, yeah. Daryus goes deaf from a scream, but Faythe has headphones on so she's good. Gabriel then becomes Jesus and resurrects Faythe, because he's the Savior.
I think had they alluded to powers of that kind it would have worked, but up until then he's just a dude wanting to sing. Suddenly music being able to resurrect people is total Deus ex machina.

I pretty much agree with all of this, although I guess it doesn't bother me as much because, earlier on, Gabriel is referenced as a "god among us" and a "savior", so the intention all along was probably that he has some kind of magical power. They just didn't flesh it out enough in my opinion.

I didn't think that the Gabriel's music magic plot device was weirdly used either, it was pretty fairly obvious that the gift of music (literally) was somehow connected to the supernatural in that world. Regarding Daryus, JP absolutely dropped the ball in the lyrics; when he disappeared from the story I just kind of assumed that Gabriel killed him, or simply that JP forgot about him.

[Elaitch]

Rock operas (and definitely musicals) can be very literal and blatant in terms of dialouge, but so am I when I am talking to another person. Trying to make another person clear what my intentions/thoughts are is in fact mostly the whole purpose of having any conversation. I can see why people find certain lyrics cringy (for me it is the music player part that always gets me), but in general the way they were written on TA makes sense to me.

I think that has less to do with the format and more to do with JPs way of writing.I mean, heck, people still dislike most of his lyrics from e.g. Systematic Chaos (In the Presence of Enemies, The Dark Eternal Night) etc. because of the overly "fantasmic" way he tends to write lyrics. Some were making fun of his full story write-up on the official website in a thread the other day because of the same reason. I personally didn't have too much problem with it before because he was usually not the only one who wrote lyrics, however this time we got an entire double album of his style, and I'm starting to understand where his critics were coming from 

[Dublagent66]

I just skip the whole album...

To be fair, I actually listened straight through its entirety 3 times.  Didn't start skipping until certain tracks popped in on shuffle.  Not really sure I can stomach listening through entirely for a 4th time.  TA is NOT a progressive metal album.  Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.

[KevShmev]

  TA is NOT a progressive metal album.  Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.

So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.

[jakepriest]

If I gave up on albums after three listens I wouldn't even like half of DT's discography to be honest.

[bosk1]

  TA is NOT a progressive metal album.  Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.

So the problem is not the album, it's your expectations.

Which doesn't even begin to address how it somehow isn't a "progressive metal album."  That one baffles me.

[pcs90]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

[TAC]

I'm convinced there are some people who simply do not want to like the album, and no matter what happens they will refuse to enjoy it.

I don't know. I think people get frustrated when they feel they are let down by something. This album may not appeal to everyone.

[erwinrafael]

The "bug" thing is an example of something that probably could have been written a little better. You absolutely need to read the detailed story write-up on DT's site to understand what that word means within the context of the story.

Yeah, the specific significance of the word "bug' was not explained well,  but there are enough contextual clues in the words to tell you that Nafaryus was the owner of the music player Faythe found. I got it on first listen and what I first thought of was that Nafaryus was the half-blood prince. 

[mike099]

I just skip the whole album...

To be fair, I actually listened straight through its entirety 3 times.  Didn't start skipping until certain tracks popped in on shuffle.  Not really sure I can stomach listening through entirely for a 4th time.  TA is NOT a progressive metal album.  Something I've come to expect from a progressive metal band.

I have the new Redemption cd coming Friday for my progressive metal fix.