The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions

[ariich]

It's not about being PC, it's about:

"12. Insults or senseless bashing of the current or former band members of Dream Theater and/or their music will not be tolerated.  Honest, open critique is always allowed, provided it does not cross the line and become bashing, belittling, etc."

Essentially saying that JP has the writing skills of a pre-teen sounds somewhat belittling to me.

I'm not insulting JP, I'm passing my "honest, open critique" on the lyrics. Perhaps I expressed it badly, but come on, I'm sure there's a major consensus that the lyrics are a cheesy-as-hell in places. Other moments they're quite good - especially when they tell the story in a more musical format - Three Days springs to mind.

Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.

I'll get my coat...

That's fine. "I find the lyrics way too cheesy" is a perfectly sensible thing to post. An opinion is an opinion, and everyone is entitled to theirs.

Your post was pretty insulting because of the manner, not the opinion. It's not about being "PC", it's about being respectful to each other and to the band.

OK, I do apologise, not at all my intention...

I'll state again that I'm a very long-term fan, have seen them 15-20 times live, have interviewed James twice, Jordan the once, Mike Mangini in-person back-stage, hung with James pre-gig, etc., so I'd be mortified at offending...

No prob at all dude, we're quite uncommon as far as the internet goes in putting a lot of effort into making this a respectful and enjoyable community. So I totally get why people might come here being more used to other forums or social media, and unintentionally come across as fairly insulting for a bit until settling in.

Like I said, we encourage people to be able to express their opinions, whatever they might be. Hell, that's pretty much the point of this thread.


Ok, so my own, potentially "unpopular", opinion: A New Beginning is pretty overrated and, although it has some great stuff, also has some off the corniest stuff on the album.

[BlobVanDam]

It has some super corny stuff ("just like a drug, remember bug", "how music makes me feel"), but I think most of the album is pretty consistent on that front, so it doesn't bother me.
I think it's a great song overall, except for the super blatant pitch correction at the start. Put me off right away, but the rest of the song won me over eventually.

[ReaPsTA]

DT's lyrics have never been the best, but I really don't get on with TA's at all.

Just to talk about this actual point, I don't like this argument because it presumes I should just have low expectations of what I'm hearing. DT's put out plenty of songs with great lyrics and many more where the lyrics are at least okay. One of the biggest strengths of DT12, to me, was that the lyrics on the album were consistently solid, with two real standouts in TBP and IT. So, the fact that The Astonishing was such a huge step back in this department was disappointing.

For example, in The Answer, the lyrics involve Gabriel talking about how he has this gift that makes him feel lonely. It's neat, but it doesn't really go anywhere. Then, when I was reading the explanations on DT.net, it talks about how Gabriel was a very weird dude who doesn't understand why now people are interested him.  How is he supposed to rally and motivate these people that he doesn't understand and who don't understand him?  This is actually interesting... but why wasn't it in the lyrics at all?

[Lycanthrope]

Back in the late 90's and early 2000's I spent a lot of time on MP's forum - now that place got a bit rough!

I was "Dabby" there, BTW - I assume there are some old-timers from there ended up here. I stopped posting when my count reached 2112, for aesthetic reasons

[Podaar]

Same goes for names like "Faythe" and "Nafaryus" - come on, John is one year younger than I, and I'd never dream of using names like that, they're so corny they're laughable.

My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.

Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.

[Bertielee]

I don't have a problem with the lyrics. Granted, they are cheesy at times, but nothing I can't manage. What bothers me is, while there are brilliant moments  on TA, some others are really and easily forgettable. As I wrote it earlier, it lacks coherence and cohesiveness. And I blame this all on being the brainchild of 1 man and a half and not a band effort.

B.Lee

[Lycanthrope]

DT's lyrics have never been the best, but I really don't get on with TA's at all.

Just to talk about this actual point, I don't like this argument because it presumes I should just have low expectations of what I'm hearing. DT's put out plenty of songs with great lyrics and many more where the lyrics are at least okay. One of the biggest strengths of DT12, to me, was that the lyrics on the album were consistently solid, with two real standouts in TBP and IT. So, the fact that The Astonishing was such a huge step back in this department was disappointing.

For example, in The Answer, the lyrics involve Gabriel talking about how he has this gift that makes him feel lonely. It's neat, but it doesn't really go anywhere. Then, when I was reading the explanations on DT.net, it talks about how Gabriel was a very weird dude who doesn't understand why now people are interested him.  How is he supposed to rally and motivate these people that he doesn't understand and who don't understand him?  This is actually interesting... but why wasn't it in the lyrics at all?

Yes, they're not ALL bad, but they're not consistently up there. Lyrics on Awake were stunning though.

[Ben_Jamin]

I feel people who bought tickets and are thinking of selling them...Just go, it's gonna be an entirely different experience from DT. It might make certain songs you didn't like shine.

[Bertielee]

I feel people who bought tickets and are thinking of selling them...Just go, it's gonna be an entirely different experience from DT. It might make certain songs you didn't like shine.

Yes, agreed. I was talking about it with my brother and we came to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see them.

B.Lee

[Zook]

The cheesiest thing on The Astonishing still isn't as cheesy as "day after day."

[BlobVanDam]

TA is actually easily my least favourite DT album lyrically. Too many parts where the lyrics take me out of the moment, and too many inconsistencies and issues that stop me from relating to it or believing the story.

[SebastianPratesi]

I think it's a great song overall, except for the super blatant pitch correction at the start. Put me off right away, but the rest of the song won me over eventually.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember hearing that. When does it happen?

[erwinrafael]

I don't have a problem with the lyrics. Granted, they are cheesy at times, but nothing I can't manage. What bothers me is, while there are brilliant moments  on TA, some others are really and easily forgettable. As I wrote it earlier, it lacks coherence and cohesiveness. And I blame this all on being the brainchild of 1 man and a half and not a band effort.

B.Lee

How is TA not coherent and cohesive? I really can not get this vibe at all. It is not any less cohesive than many musicals I have listened to.

And what is this obsession about "band" effort? The Beatles never wrote songs as a band. The Eagles never wrote songs as a band. Much of Savatage's work is just a two to three man effort. Steven Wilson does concept albums as a solo act with a bunch of session musicians. And the songwriting for the much-loved Haken here is basically just Richard Henshall, with the other band members pitching in lyrics.

[BlobVanDam]

I think it's a great song overall, except for the super blatant pitch correction at the start. Put me off right away, but the rest of the song won me over eventually.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember hearing that. When does it happen?

0:48 - 0:52. The worst bit is "but I knew we were meant to be". It has that drowning computer sound that pitch correction gets when laid on way too heavily. The rest is totally fine, it's just those few seconds.

[Ben_Jamin]

I feel people who bought tickets and are thinking of selling them...Just go, it's gonna be an entirely different experience from DT. It might make certain songs you didn't like shine.

Yes, agreed. I was talking about it with my brother and we came to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see them.

B.Lee

It's why I'm doing what I can to go. Closest place is Denver, a 7 hour drive. Plus, it's gonna be my 3rd time seeing DT, 2nd with a long set, 1st evening with show.

[Zook]

I don't have a problem with the lyrics. Granted, they are cheesy at times, but nothing I can't manage. What bothers me is, while there are brilliant moments  on TA, some others are really and easily forgettable. As I wrote it earlier, it lacks coherence and cohesiveness. And I blame this all on being the brainchild of 1 man and a half and not a band effort.

B.Lee

How is TA not coherent and cohesive? I really can not get this vibe at all. It is not any less cohesive than many musicals I have listened to.

For me, The Astonishing didn't become coherent until the 3rd or so listen. That's when I started to pick up things, and the lyrics started to make sense. There's just a lot to take in.

[Bertielee]

I feel people who bought tickets and are thinking of selling them...Just go, it's gonna be an entirely different experience from DT. It might make certain songs you didn't like shine.

Yes, agreed. I was talking about it with my brother and we came to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see them.

B.Lee

It's why I'm doing what I can to go. Closest place is Denver, a 7 hour drive. Plus, it's gonna be my 3rd time seeing DT, 2nd with a long set, 1st evening with show.

Wow, you're brave! There is no way I would make such a trip. Even for DT.

B.Lee

[Bertielee]

I don't have a problem with the lyrics. Granted, they are cheesy at times, but nothing I can't manage. What bothers me is, while there are brilliant moments  on TA, some others are really and easily forgettable. As I wrote it earlier, it lacks coherence and cohesiveness. And I blame this all on being the brainchild of 1 man and a half and not a band effort.

B.Lee

How is TA not coherent and cohesive? I really can not get this vibe at all. It is not any less cohesive than many musicals I have listened to.

For me, The Astonishing didn't become coherent until the 3rd or so listen. That's when I started to pick up things, and the lyrics started to make sense. There's just a lot to take in.

The problem is that I'm on my 11th or 12th listen now. But I think it has more to do with me than with DT. I've come to the sad conclusion that their music may just not be for me anymore.

B.Lee

[ReaPsTA]

My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.

Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.

I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.

[erwinrafael]

My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.

Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.

I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.

He is portrayed seriously in the story moments where he needed to be serious. Do you expect him to be played with cheese in Losing Faythe?

[ariich]

I like the fact that he's been given this cheesy name, but isn't actually as nefarious as his name suggests.

And the songwriting for the much-loved Haken here is basically just Richard Henshall, with the other band members pitching in lyrics.

While I entirely agree with your point, I just thought I'd point out that this is less and less the case with each release. By the Mountain Hen came up with most of the original ideas but the whole band fleshed them out (except one song which was entirely Diego), and for the new album coming out in April, the whole band has brought the initial ideas as well.

[bosk1]

And what is this obsession about "band" effort? The Beatles never wrote songs as a band. The Eagles never wrote songs as a band. Much of Savatage's work is just a two to three man effort. Steven Wilson does concept albums as a solo act with a bunch of session musicians. And the songwriting for the much-loved Haken here is basically just Richard Henshall, with the other band members pitching in lyrics.

Agreed.  Other examples abound, but those are some great ones.

[Bertielee]

I like the fact that he's been given this cheesy name, but isn't actually as nefarious as his name suggests.

Yes, I like that too. Kind of a red herring so to speak.

B.Lee

[ReaPsTA]

My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.

Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.

I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.

He is portrayed seriously in the story moments where he needed to be serious. Do you expect him to be played with cheese in Losing Faythe?

Definitely not. The problem is there are basically two Nefaryus characters on the album. There's Nafaryus from his introduction track and most of three days, and the Nafaryus from the rest of the album who's more threatening. Either one would have been fine, but when you have both I can't enjoy the cheese as cheese and I can't take the serious moments seriously.

[bosk1]

My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.

Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.

I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.

He is portrayed seriously in the story moments where he needed to be serious. Do you expect him to be played with cheese in Losing Faythe?

Definitely not. The problem is there are basically two Nefaryus characters on the album. There's Nafaryus from his introduction track and most of three days, and the Nafaryus from the rest of the album who's more threatening. Either one would have been fine, but when you have both I can't enjoy the cheese as cheese and I can't take the serious moments seriously.

I hear you.  But I view that is simply part of the duality/complexity of his character.  He is scary, powerful, threatening, and, in some aspects, nefarious.  But on the other hand, beneath the surface, he is also emotional, caring, and...cheesey.  Perhaps that duality/complexity wasn't done perfectly, or wasn't done to your or my satisfaction.  But I don't feel that that is a reason to write it off or that that should stand in the way of my enjoyment of the album.

[Podaar]

He's a Disney villain. It all makes perfect sense to me...but then again... I'm weird.

[bosk1]

He's a Disney villain. It all makes perfect sense to me...

That too. 

[hefdaddy42]

I agree with bosky.  There is no contradiction with people being multifaceted, much less with fictional characters being multifaceted.

Sometimes I am stern, and sometimes I am funny, and sometimes I am goofy.

[Zook]

The Astonishing needs a dark and gritty reboot.

[bosk1]

The Astonishing needs a dark and gritty reboot.

[hefdaddy42]

*won't sleep tonight*

[ariich]

My only problem with this critique is that it assumes that JP is completely unaware. It's silly. I've seen this kind of comment before somewhere in the thousands of posts on this album.

Do folks really think that JP wasn't aware that these names were corny? Do we really believe he left his intelligence at the door when he wrote down Nafaryus? That his tongue wasn't firmly thrust into his cheek? Give him more credit than that. It seems the fans take themselves way more seriously than the band.

I don't think you're wrong, but then then why didn't JP just roll with it. The Nafaryus song and Three Days have some decent cheese in them. But then there are other Nafaryus moments that are played completely serious. I don't know how I'm supposed to feel.

He is portrayed seriously in the story moments where he needed to be serious. Do you expect him to be played with cheese in Losing Faythe?

Definitely not. The problem is there are basically two Nefaryus characters on the album. There's Nafaryus from his introduction track and most of three days, and the Nafaryus from the rest of the album who's more threatening. Either one would have been fine, but when you have both I can't enjoy the cheese as cheese and I can't take the serious moments seriously.

There aren't two characters, but is the character himself, and then how he wants people to see him. You mention his introduction track, but even in there he talks about his love for his family. And Three Days is clearly him putting fear into the proles but that doesn't mean he is big bad evil villain.

[ReaPsTA]

There aren't two characters, but is the character himself, and then how he wants people to see him. You mention his introduction track, but even in there he talks about his love for his family. And Three Days is clearly him putting fear into the proles but that doesn't mean he is big bad evil villain.

This is the only interpretation that makes sense to me. He puts on pomp and circumstance for the public and it's ridiculous because that kind of stuff always is.

He's a Disney villain. It all makes perfect sense to me...but then again... I'm weird.

Two problems with this:

- In Disney movies, the villains' lighter moments accentuated their darker moments. Like, before Scar (SPOILER ALERT!!!!!) kills Mufasa, the lighter moments show his sophistication, cunning, and ability to rally Hyenas to his cause. You always take him seriously. Or, in The Beauty and the Beast, when Gaston acts like an asshole and a joke, it makes you root against him more. With Nafaryus, the sillier stuff (including his name) doesn't make him darker.

- Disney movies tend to have an overall comedic tone until they get serious at the end. Except for Nafaryus, everything in the Astonishing is played straight, which makes it odd that this one element stands out as silly.

[NonstopPurpleForce]

I actually like the clapping in Hymn of a Thousand Voices.

[ariich]

- Disney movies tend to have an overall comedic tone until they get serious at the end. Except for Nafaryus, everything in the Astonishing is played straight, which makes it odd that this one element stands out as silly.

I wouldn't say the album is played entirely straight. None of it is comedic or anything, but I think it's pretty intentionally larger-than-life. In a way, that's kinda why I enjoy it and find it easier to immerse in it than, say, SFAM.