The Astonishing - Unpopular opinions

[TheAtliator]

ok I'll say it...

WHO THE HELL WOULD SELL THEIR SON IN RETURN FOR MURDERING THEIR BROTHER??!!


Was Daryus threatening to kill Xander or something? That's what I thought the first time, but I don't think that's even it. "Give me your son or I won't kill your brother," how tempting...

[bosk1]

That post makes no sense.

[pantsofeternity]

Wait, but I DO have a question about the mechanics of Daryus's offer... on first listen / read, I thought Daryus basically had Xander with a knife to his throat and said "Tell me where Gabriel is or I'll kill your son."  But that's not it.  Instead he offers Xander a better life... but what is the better life?  With the Empire?  That doesn't seem that much better.  Maybe Arhys is so destitute that anything would be better, even if Xander couldn't stay with him, but that doesn't seem the case.

And then, is he just giving up Gabriel for capture, or death?  Because it didn't seem like Gabriel was going to be executed by Nafaryus according to "Three Days'... the post above might not quite make sense to me, but neither does the action of the plot!

[ariich]

Wait, but I DO have a question about the mechanics of Daryus's offer... on first listen / read, I thought Daryus basically had Xander with a knife to his throat and said "Tell me where Gabriel is or I'll kill your son."  But that's not it.  Instead he offers Xander a better life... but what is the better life?  With the Empire?  That doesn't seem that much better.  Maybe Arhys is so destitute that anything would be better, even if Xander couldn't stay with him.

This is exactly the case, yeah. The whole first few songs are basically about how the Empire lives in luxury while everyone else toils away in pain and misery. Arhys promised Evangeline that he would give Xander a better life, and then Daryus offers to give him that. He is tempted. Ultimately when he steps back and realises what a terrible mistake it would be, he changes his mind.

[pantsofeternity]

Wait, but I DO have a question about the mechanics of Daryus's offer... on first listen / read, I thought Daryus basically had Xander with a knife to his throat and said "Tell me where Gabriel is or I'll kill your son."  But that's not it.  Instead he offers Xander a better life... but what is the better life?  With the Empire?  That doesn't seem that much better.  Maybe Arhys is so destitute that anything would be better, even if Xander couldn't stay with him.

This is exactly the case, yeah. The whole first few songs are basically about how the Empire lives in luxury while everyone else toils away in pain and misery. Arhys promised Evangeline that he would give Xander a better life, and then Daryus offers to give him that. He is tempted. Ultimately when he steps back and realises what a terrible mistake it would be, he changes his mind.

Okay, in that case... I guess it does puzzle me that Arhys would make that decision, "Well, I'll give my brother up to the enemy [again, I'm assuming that in this case he doesn't think Daryus will murder Gabriel, just capture him?], so that I can give up my son to the enemy"...?  It just seems odd that he would let his sworn enemy raise his son, unless they were literally facing death by starvation (which, though they struggle, doesn't quite seem the case).  I understand the part where Nafaryus is going to destroy Ravenskill to get Gabriel anyway, but... I mean, why doesn't Daryus just roll with "Tell me where Gabriel is, or I'll slit the boy's through right now"?

I guess I just feel this is the plot point that raises the most questions / is easiest to poke holes in.  Shoot, this probably belongs in another thread, sorry.

[Scorpion]

So I refined my playlist slightly, and it now reads as follows:

Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
Lord Nafaryus
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
A New Beginning
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World

One hour of outstanding music, basically. I'll give the album another full spin tomorrow, but as of now, these are basically the only songs that I feel a real desire to listen to.

[MirrorMask]

I mean, why doesn't Daryus just roll with "Tell me where Gabriel is, or I'll slit the boy's through right now"?

I guess I just feel this is the plot point that raises the most questions / is easiest to poke holes in.  Shoot, this probably belongs in another thread, sorry.

Well, he can uses Xander as a leverage. An hostage is good only until you have him, what does he do? he drags along the boy all the way to Gabriel's hideout, and then what? Daryus lets Xander go and faces two grown men? he asks the brothers "can you please wait here while I come back with the guards?" if he instead offers Arhys a deal, he can make sure Gabriel gets arrested and that Arhys gives him up of his own accord, so he can tell his father what a brilliant plan he came up with to save the day.

The only weird part would be "Hey dad, we kinda have to care of this kid now"... but was he even intending to keep his word?

[bosk1]

I don't think he was going to take Xander back to the palace.  I think the plan was for Xander to stay in Ravenskill, but that he would be financially supported.  Or that he and Arhys could move to the capitol together and would be financially rewarded there.  It is ambiguous in that regard.  But I don't think the plan was for Xander to go off and live with Daryus.  That isn't hinted at anywhere in the song. 

[BlobVanDam]

So I refined my playlist slightly, and it now reads as follows:

Dystopian Overture
The Gift of Music
Lord Nafaryus
A Savior in the Square
When Your Time Has Come
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
A New Beginning
Moment of Betrayal
Heaven's Cove
The Path That Divides
Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World

One hour of outstanding music, basically. I'll give the album another full spin tomorrow, but as of now, these are basically the only songs that I feel a real desire to listen to.

Similar to mine, except I have a bit more Act I, and less Act II (ie. just Our New World).

[WheyWaffles]

Leave the rock operas to Vanden Plas.  They do this sort of thing because they love it, and not simply because it's something they haven't tried yet in their long careers.  The difference in passion is evident in the outcome.

[erwinrafael]

Leave the rock operas to Vanden Plas.  They do this sort of thing because they love it, and not simply because it's something they haven't tried yet in their long careers.  The difference in passion is evident in the outcome.

I think there are a lot of things open to criticism in TA, but lack of passion is evident? Come on.

[Adami]

Before I write this, I should note that there are way too many pages of this thread and the other multiple Astonishing threads for me to read completely, so if this has been mentioned, I do apologize and feel free to ignore me.

However, as I've said before, the highs on this album are among DTs highest. Some great stuff. Though, one major complaint I have about this album are the mid-temp, half time, soaring vocals epic sections that appear.....constantly. They all just blur together to me. They all end up sounding the same unless I listen to each song 20 times to memorize it. They all have the same mood, they all have almost the same tempo and feel (though I admit that some are in 4/4 and some are in 6/8) and honestly it just feels like they tried to re-write the ending to 6 degrees and took the 20 or so attempts and put them all on the album.

[Crow]

Begin Again is pure album filler and could've been cut entirely without the album losing anything. It doesn't add anything to the story, it's musically redundant (it's like the 5th soft ballad track), and it kills the moment built up by the previous tracks in act 2.

[pcs90]

Begin Again is pure album filler and could've been cut entirely without the album losing anything. It doesn't add anything to the story, it's musically redundant (it's like the 5th soft ballad track), and it kills the moment built up by the previous tracks in act 2.

I have to agree, even though I do like Begin Again. If I had to pick one track that was "filler", this would be it. If anything, they could have put it before Heaven's Cove and I think it would have worked a little better there.
However I do think the ending instrumental is pretty cool...definitely doesn't sound like anything else DT has done.

[SebastianPratesi]

I have to agree, even though I do like Begin Again. If I had to pick one track that was "filler", this would be it. If anything, they could have put it before Heaven's Cove and I think it would have worked a little better there.
However I do think the ending instrumental is pretty cool...definitely doesn't sound like anything else DT has done.

Yeah, I like "Begin Again" too, but I also think it's placement is weird, since "Heaven's Cove" and "The Path That Divides" takes place on the same night and this one takes place earlier that day (according to the booklet).

[NoseofNicko]

It's a good album.

That's a pretty unpopular opinion outside of this site.

[Lax]

It's a good album.

That's a pretty unpopular opinion outside of this site.

I felt like this, then remembered that we read WAAAAAAAAAY more unhappy people, than the majority who is busy listening to the album

[Ben_Jamin]

After listening a couple more times. The outro to A New Beginning still feels a bit too long, it drags a bit until the solo starts. Maybe, it's because all the others end quicker instead of on a fadeout.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Begin Again is pure album filler and could've been cut entirely without the album losing anything. It doesn't add anything to the story, it's musically redundant (it's like the 5th soft ballad track), and it kills the moment built up by the previous tracks in act 2.

[red barchetta]

I know guys that many of you love TA but my unpopular opinion is that I don't understand this album.  Sounds like music made for movies.  Too much orchestral, repetitive and boring.  I keep having in mind this image;  Petrucci in concert with is usual position, one foot up standing on the tool he has in front of him, playing simple chords and lifting his arm up and  looking at the crowd like it is soooooo amazing, doing it 500 hundred times for the complete show because there are about 20 ballads on the album. 

With Rush, DT has been my favorite band but they are very far from what I have always liked about them..... but I will keep listen to that album.  Maybe after a few months I will like these melodies.

[jakepriest]

Petrucci in concert with is usual position, one foot up standing on the tool he has in front of him, playing simple chords and lifting his arm up and  looking at the crowd like it is soooooo amazing, doing it 500 hundred times for the complete show because there are about 20 ballads on the album. 

Have we been listening to the same album? I hear a lot more than just "simple chords".

[Train of Naught]

..because there are about 20 ballads on the album. 

Name 10

[Enigmachine]

Speaking of ballad ratio, here's the post I did about the relative amount. There's a lot, but not quite as much as some would think.

The amount of time the ballads take up is 15:39 (TA, AoF, Chosen, The X Aspect) to 30:59 at a stretch (adding WYTHC, BCYHM, ALLB) on Act 1 and 9:44 (BA, LF, WotW) to 19:14 (adding HoaTV and Astonishing). The pure ballads take up 25:23 of the album and adding the loosely defined ones makes it 50:13. About 19%-38% of ballads on the album from 7-12 tracks. There's a lot more ballad than most / all other DT albums but there isn't really really that much. DT12 has 7%, ADToE has 21%, BCaSL has 7%, SC has 14%, 8vm has 24%, ToT has 4%, SDoIT has 6%, SfaM has 19%, FII has 22%, Awake has 23%, IaW has 12% and WDaDU has 0% (lol).

[BlobVanDam]

By my quick count a while ago, I recall I counted 9 songs I'd consider ballads from start to finish. I think everyone will have a slightly different idea of what counts there. I think the problem is that on top of that, there are also a lot of songs that start off soft and clean, with piano/acoustic, so even though the remaining tracks aren't what you'd call ballads at all, when you're listening to the album, a lot of songs give the impression of being ballad-y from the start, and when you have a whole album of songs and themes continuously, it feels more prominent because there's less definition between songs.

For the record, I have no problem at all with ballads, and typically enjoy them more than most, so percentages and ratios mean nothing to me. I don't listen to an album with a pie chart. I do have a bit of an issue with some of the ballad/softer sections feeling kinda samey though, and blurring together.

[Enigmachine]

By my quick count a while ago, I recall I counted 9 songs I'd consider ballads from start to finish. I think everyone will have a slightly different idea of what counts there. I think the problem is that on top of that, there are also a lot of songs that start off soft and clean, with piano/acoustic, so even though the remaining tracks aren't what you'd call ballads at all, when you're listening to the album, a lot of songs give the impression of being ballad-y from the start, and when you have a whole album of songs and themes continuously, it feels more prominent because there's less definition between songs.

Yeah, I wouldn't dare call 'My Last Farewell' or 'Three Days' a ballad yet both begin with piano intros.

[BlobVanDam]

By my quick count a while ago, I recall I counted 9 songs I'd consider ballads from start to finish. I think everyone will have a slightly different idea of what counts there. I think the problem is that on top of that, there are also a lot of songs that start off soft and clean, with piano/acoustic, so even though the remaining tracks aren't what you'd call ballads at all, when you're listening to the album, a lot of songs give the impression of being ballad-y from the start, and when you have a whole album of songs and themes continuously, it feels more prominent because there's less definition between songs.

Yeah, I wouldn't dare call 'My Last Farewell' or 'Three Days' a ballad yet both begin with piano intros.

From the first minute of My Last Farewell and the short track time, you could easily be led to believe it was going to be a ballad, before it changes completely as most of the tracks do. I think these are the kinds of sections that contribute to many people's feeling there are too many ballads, even though there aren't that many.
I'm sure if you broke down the album further to see how many minutes of ballad-y sections there are on the album (as opposed to entire songs), the figure would probably support the point more.

This album has my favourite ballad sections in over a decade, so I'm certainly not complaining. I don't have any complaints about a DT album being too much of any particular side of the band, all that matters to me is whether it's done well.

[devieira73]

Just a random thought about this album... I really liked it a lot and admire very much the courage, creativity DT put on this album. But to me maybe it will be a bit like "Kiss - The elder": a truly great album, but when I think of what kind of album I would like them to do, I never think in that album as a reference.
However, I already see myself wanting that DT takes the diversity of styles showed in TA to a more traditional approach to its traditional writing style, with longer songs, more instrumental sections and solos, like they already did in A New Beginning.

[Enigmachine]

From the first minute of My Last Farewell and the short track time, you could easily be led to believe it was going to be a ballad, before it changes completely as most of the tracks do. I think these are the kinds of sections that contribute to many people's feeling there are too many ballads, even though there aren't that many.
I'm sure if you broke down the album further to see how many minutes of ballad-y sections there are on the album (as opposed to entire songs), the figure would probably support the point more.

This album has my favourite ballad sections in over a decade, so I'm certainly not complaining. I don't have any complaints about a DT album being too much of any particular side of the band, all that matters to me is whether it's done well.

Yeah, some good points there. I think it's a good thing that most of the songs aren't static in terms of their style.

[ariich]

From the first minute of My Last Farewell and the short track time, you could easily be led to believe it was going to be a ballad

wut

The start of that song is really, really dark tonally.

[Ħ]

Maybe not an unpopular opinion - the characters look ugly and weird (as does pretty much every non-musical thing released for the album, like the music video).

[CrimsonSunrise]

I'm trying REALLY hard  to like the end of TA.  I enjoy the majority of the album, but from Hymn of a Thousand Voices till the end It feels very..... blah and overall weak.  The last track, "Astonishing" to me is very Un-Astonishing and probably my least favorite of the major tracks.  The beginning sounds like something straight out of Illumination Theory (which I wasn't a big fan of).  I really hope it grows on me as most of the album has.  Otherwise, it has the potential too be a real bummer ending to the live show for me.  Especially with no encores being played.

[Ħ]

I'm trying REALLY hard  to like the end of TA.  I enjoy the majority of the album, but from Hymn of a Thousand Voices till the end It feels very..... blah and overall weak.  The last track, "Astonishing" to me is very Un-Astonishing and probably my least favorite of the major tracks.  The beginning sounds like something straight out of Illumination Theory (which I wasn't a big fan of).  I really hope it grows on me as most of the album has.  Otherwise, it has the potential too be a real bummer ending to the live show for me.  Especially with no encores being played.

I completely agree, the end of the album is the worst. I don't like the title track very much at all.

[Architeuthis]

I like the title track and it closes out the ending of the story well. I would prefer a more epic ending though with the huge WOW factor..  I guess the album in it's entirety has that though.. So what more could we want?  I wouldn't be surprised if they do something extra special live for the finale.

[rumborak]

I really hope they do something special in terms of live presentation, particularly to allow people to follow the plot (not everybody will be aware of it).

[deslock]

"The Astonishing" is a disappointment after the self-titled album (which was a step down from "A Dramatic Turn of Events").

I respect Petrucci's ambition and willingness to try new things, but I couldn't take all the cringe-inducing melodramatic lyrics and singing (LaBrie's voice isn't well suited for ballads) and after the first few all-the-way-through listens, I cut out the cheesiest 10 songs. Then a few days later I dropped 5 more. For the last week I've been listening to 15 songs, and I'm probably going to cut out 5 more songs this week.

To be fair, no Dream Theater album is good start-to-finish, and the remaining 10 songs are still 45 minutes of music. "Moment of Betrayal" and "A New Beginning" are standout tracks, and there are a lot of other wonderful moments: the ending of "The Gift of Music", the middle and end of "Three Days", the middle of "2285 Entr'acte", and most of "Heaven's Cove", "The Path That Divides", "The Walking Shadow", and "My Last Farewell". It's a shame the awesome intro of "A Life Left Behind" isn't part of a different song... it's mostly terrible after 1:23.

I may stitch together the best parts of the songs into one giant "Astonishing" medley.