*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

On the Eddie Trunk interview, JP said that he and JR approached the band and asked that the entire thing be written by them, without input from the other guys.

I can see why they had that idea, but it might have been beneficial to present the band with the finished product (as we hear it today) and get their input. Really all The Astonishing needed was an editor. It sounds like nobody wanted to question JP's creative decisions.

That's what happens when the producer of the album is a band member. Someone has to be on the helm, and it happens to be JP in this case. I know that some people have been pleading for an outside producer for DT for years, but that isn't gonna happen. Even if JP (and MP) have made some questionable decisions as producers, they have also made some outstanding work as well (SFAM? SDOIT?).

[King Postwhore]

To me, the,band needs an outside producer.   It always invigorates a band.

[BlobVanDam]

For me, it simply comes down to, JP and JR aimed way too high. Like, wayyyyy too high. So, even though they gave themselves more time than usual, the vast scope of the album (music, lyrics, story, artwork etc etc) stretched them so thin that each aspect came out poor.

This is how I feel, and it's the reason that from the start I was apprehensive about a concept album (or anything similar), and didn't want a double album.
I think the album is very ambitious, and kicks off with a bang, with some of DT's best music in a long time, but I think they over-extended themselves with the whole idea, and for me it starts to fizzle out about 1/3 of the way in, and then largely feels like needing to put music behind the rest of the story, with some exceptions where it still shines such as Our New World. Starting the creative process with a story that requires a double album to tell boxes you into an obligatory amount of music to cover it.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

To me, the,band needs an outside producer.   It always invigorates a band.

Probably, yeah. I've been on that wagon many times, but I don't think it's of any use of wishing that because it ain't gonna happen. They're happy where they are, and they're successful where they are. Also, more than half of their discography has been self-produced. Why change that now? I'm quite sure they would look elsewhere for an outside producer if an album had strong negative impact on the fanbase, but that has never been DT's case. The haters are a vocal minority, and as with every album the opinions are kinda polarised in some circles; but all in all the albums are incredibly well received and the concerts are still going strong. It wouldn't make sense to change a dynamic that works for them.

[KevShmev]

Just because something is working doesn't mean you still can't change it.  There's no fun in being safe.   To use Rush as an example again, things were going awesome for them in the early 80s - that was arguably the height of their popularity - but they needed a change, so they chucked their longtime friend and producer Terry Brown, because they wanted a challenge and different ears to treat their music.  I doubt DT will ever get an outside producer again, but I'd love it if they did.

[Mosh]

I generally agree with that. The Astonishing had mixed results but I'm glad they tried it. Before this album people were complaining that DT were playing it safe and getting generic. You can't really use that argument anymore. At least not until the next album, we'll see what happens.

I think the first disc is generally solid throughout so I don't think it's that bad. It's still 70 minutes worth of enjoyable music when you cut out the bad stuff, so it's already better than a few DT albums.

I've been thinking about the outside producer thing a lot lately, listening to some DT stuff as well as the latest Flying Colors album (which also suffers partially due to not having an outside producer IMO). I totally get why MP and JP have an aversion to that and I think self producing worked with fantastic results all the way until Octavarium. I think signing on to Roadrunner would've been a good chance to seek out a producer who understands the band and their needs. I don't think having an outside producer was the problem as much as the record label was assigning the wrong people.

[Darkstarshades]

Maybe I am too much of a noob, but my band and me are just starting writing our first material, this is the first time we sit down and jam/write together and so far it's going great.

One of us one day has an idea, and writes some stuff for it, and then presents it to us and we work on it. Other times, for example myself, I wrote a song totally by myself, but I couldn't push it forward without showing it to the other guys because I feel it certainly needs other influences. I'm this Angra/DT/Nightwish/Stratovarious musician and another bandmate is very Coldplay/Nirvana/Jazz fellah and another guy is this Muse/PinkFloyd and the last one is just a straightforward metalhead, so we get this interesting fusion which so far I'm loving. The point is, when I present the product, they all go like "Sure this is great, but what if we try this?" and they would try something else to play along with it, without altering all from what I had. I sincerely can't understand those guys who belong in a band and write everything by themselves and just teach the other bandmembers how to play it. I honestly can't imagine myself just "forcing" my bandmates to play what I want without hearing their thoughts first.

Which is why I hope TA, which as much as I consider it to be a masterpiece, goes as just as a temporal experiment and it doesn't mean JP and JR will write everything from now on. JM and MM are much more experimented musicians than we are, so their inputs and ideas must be truly colossal.
Just thoughts.

[red barchetta]

I see that a lot of people are thinking the same way than me about TA. I thought many times I could change my mind after many listens to it but recently I had surrender. And then all these comments towards my thoughts of the album. But I say that with respect because I love these guys.

[Ben_Jamin]

JP and JR did write all the music, but not what's recorded by JM and MM. They are free to add their own flavor to it. Which means nothing really, just that they didn't write the melodies, structures and tempos, rhythms.

Guaranteed this next album will have input from everybody. Since, it'll be a nice change and maybe more JLB and Myung lyrics.

[Mladen]

The more I listen to The Astonishing, the more I appreciate Myung's subtle contributions. Every now and then, neither the guitar nor the keyboard is in the forefront, and JM knows that's his time to add a little something to a section that might sound slightly empty otherwise. He sure found his place on this album, it's impressive.

[Prog Snob]

Just because something is working doesn't mean you still can't change it.  There's no fun in being safe.   To use Rush as an example again, things were going awesome for them in the early 80s - that was arguably the height of their popularity - but they needed a change, so they chucked their longtime friend and producer Terry Brown, because they wanted a challenge and different ears to treat their music.  I doubt DT will ever get an outside producer again, but I'd love it if they did.

It would be interesting to see who they would actually pick. Of course I'd hope for Steven Wilson, but that would never happen. As far as sound, I think getting Kevin Shirley would be awesome. FII, while one of their poorest albums as far as song composition and song choice, was sonically one of their best releases. I don't want him fucking with the songs themselves! We don't need another Hawaiian intro to Take Away My Pain. 

[Kotowboy]

For me, it simply comes down to, JP and JR aimed way too high. Like, wayyyyy too high. So, even though they gave themselves more time than usual, the vast scope of the album (music, lyrics, story, artwork etc etc) stretched them so thin that each aspect came out poor.

Nope. The artwork is the best they've had in YEARS. If anything - the previous three or four were really poor.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

  Petrucci put the story first above everything, and if the listener won't care about the story, then the music suffers for it.

I still totally disagree with this.  I have been listening to this a lot since the day it came out, 5 1/2 months ago, and I still have NEVER go out of my way to read the lyrics, and while I know the general gist of the story now, I still don't much of the particulars, yet I love most of it*...because the music is mostly great.

I second this.

[KevShmev]

Just because something is working doesn't mean you still can't change it.  There's no fun in being safe.   To use Rush as an example again, things were going awesome for them in the early 80s - that was arguably the height of their popularity - but they needed a change, so they chucked their longtime friend and producer Terry Brown, because they wanted a challenge and different ears to treat their music.  I doubt DT will ever get an outside producer again, but I'd love it if they did.

It would be interesting to see who they would actually pick. Of course I'd hope for Steven Wilson, but that would never happen. As far as sound, I think getting Kevin Shirley would be awesome. FII, while one of their poorest albums as far as song composition and song choice, was sonically one of their best releases. I don't want him fucking with the songs themselves! We don't need another Hawaiian intro to Take Away My Pain. 

I don't even know what that means.   Nothing wrong at all with the intro to Take Away My Pain or the song in general; it's a fine tune overall, as recorded and released on FII.

[mikeyd23]

It would be interesting to see who they would actually pick. Of course I'd hope for Steven Wilson, but that would never happen.

I like DT. I like Steven Wilson (as a musician, songwriter, and producer). But, I don't think that would be a good match for variety of reasons.

[Prog Snob]

Just because something is working doesn't mean you still can't change it.  There's no fun in being safe.   To use Rush as an example again, things were going awesome for them in the early 80s - that was arguably the height of their popularity - but they needed a change, so they chucked their longtime friend and producer Terry Brown, because they wanted a challenge and different ears to treat their music.  I doubt DT will ever get an outside producer again, but I'd love it if they did.

It would be interesting to see who they would actually pick. Of course I'd hope for Steven Wilson, but that would never happen. As far as sound, I think getting Kevin Shirley would be awesome. FII, while one of their poorest albums as far as song composition and song choice, was sonically one of their best releases. I don't want him fucking with the songs themselves! We don't need another Hawaiian intro to Take Away My Pain. 

I don't even know what that means.   Nothing wrong at all with the intro to Take Away My Pain or the song in general; it's a fine tune overall, as recorded and released on FII.

I prefer the demo version with the straight acoustic/vocal intro. 

It would be interesting to see who they would actually pick. Of course I'd hope for Steven Wilson, but that would never happen.

I like DT. I like Steven Wilson (as a musician, songwriter, and producer). But, I don't think that would be a good match for variety of reasons.

That's why I said I it would never happen. 

[TAC]

I prefer the Fix For '96 version.

[mikeyd23]

That's why I said I it would never happen. 

So why would you hope for it if you agree it wouldn't be a good match?

[erwinrafael]

The more I listen to The Astonishing, the more I appreciate Myung's subtle contributions. Every now and then, neither the guitar nor the keyboard is in the forefront, and JM knows that's his time to add a little something to a section that might sound slightly empty otherwise. He sure found his place on this album, it's impressive.

Yep, Myung is amazing in this album. Even in the ballads like Chosen.

[Prog Snob]

That's why I said I it would never happen. 

So why would you hope for it if you agree it wouldn't be a good match?

I think DT could benefit from his production expertise.

[mikeyd23]

That's why I said I it would never happen. 

So why would you hope for it if you agree it wouldn't be a good match?

I think DT could benefit from his production expertise.

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, I'm asking out of curiosity... What specifically do you think Steven would bring to the table as a producer in DT that would be benefical for the band? You thinking more on the song arranging side of things or the sonic side of production?

[Prog Snob]

I don't think they need any help with song arrangements, though I'm sure they would be open to a producer's opinion. I think SW would be exceedingly beneficial from a sonic perspective. I love how his albums sound. They're this perfect balance between each instrument and vocals. Granted, his albums portray a different mood from that of DT, but I can't help but feel that there are a handful of moments on the last few releases that could have been approached better.

[mikeyd23]

I don't think they need any help with song arrangements, though I'm sure they would be open to a producer's opinion. I think SW would be exceedingly beneficial from a sonic perspective. I love how his albums sound. They're this perfect balance between each instrument and vocals. Granted, his albums portray a different mood from that of DT, but I can't help but feel that there are a handful of moments on the last few releases that could have been approached better.

That's fair, I'd agree that Steven's stuff usually sounds fantastic from a sonic perspective. It's the difference in mood that would cause me to pause, but it would definitely be an interesting collaboration.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I know that SW working with DT is a lot of folks' prog wet dream, but it ain't gonna happen. DT's style doesn't fit SW in any sense, so it wouldn't be very beneficial to the band having him.

[King Postwhore]

I know that SW working with DT is a lot of folks' prog wet dream, but it ain't gonna happen. DT's style doesn't fit SW in any sense, so it wouldn't be very beneficial to the band having him.

Though at the time of Stupid Dream did you ever think SW would work with Opeth?  I sure didn't.

[erwinrafael]

I don't think they need any help with song arrangements, though I'm sure they would be open to a producer's opinion. I think SW would be exceedingly beneficial from a sonic perspective. I love how his albums sound. They're this perfect balance between each instrument and vocals. Granted, his albums portray a different mood from that of DT, but I can't help but feel that there are a handful of moments on the last few releases that could have been approached better.

That's fair, I'd agree that Steven's stuff usually sounds fantastic from a sonic perspective. It's the difference in mood that would cause me to pause, but it would definitely be an interesting collaboration.

From a sonic perspective, I think The Astonishing sounded great so maybe DT is on the right track. The cymbals could be higher in the mix but my guess is that it's already competing with the sonic space filled by the orchestra, so they dialed it down.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I know that SW working with DT is a lot of folks' prog wet dream, but it ain't gonna happen. DT's style doesn't fit SW in any sense, so it wouldn't be very beneficial to the band having him.

Though at the time of Stupid Dream did you ever think SW would work with Opeth?  I sure didn't.

Not at all, but it's different. SW has stated several times that he's a fan of death metal and of Mikael Akerfeldt's work, so working with Opeth made sense. On the other hand, he has also stated he's not a big fan of Dream Theater.

[mikeyd23]

I don't think they need any help with song arrangements, though I'm sure they would be open to a producer's opinion. I think SW would be exceedingly beneficial from a sonic perspective. I love how his albums sound. They're this perfect balance between each instrument and vocals. Granted, his albums portray a different mood from that of DT, but I can't help but feel that there are a handful of moments on the last few releases that could have been approached better.

That's fair, I'd agree that Steven's stuff usually sounds fantastic from a sonic perspective. It's the difference in mood that would cause me to pause, but it would definitely be an interesting collaboration.

From a sonic perspective, I think The Astonishing sounded great so maybe DT is on the right track. The cymbals could be higher in the mix but my guess is that it's already competing with the sonic space filled by the orchestra, so they dialed it down.

It was better, I'd say the one sonic element that could have been better were the drums.  Like you said, a lot of the cymbal work was lost.

Steven usually goes for a mix that has a good bit of breathing room, DT usually does not.

[King Postwhore]

I know that SW working with DT is a lot of folks' prog wet dream, but it ain't gonna happen. DT's style doesn't fit SW in any sense, so it wouldn't be very beneficial to the band having him.

Though at the time of Stupid Dream did you ever think SW would work with Opeth?  I sure didn't.

Not at all, but it's different. SW has stated several times that he's a fan of death metal and of Mikael Akerfeldt's work, so working with Opeth made sense. On the other hand, he has also stated he's not a big fan of Dream Theater.

Ah, got it.   Not that I thing he would do it but Steven always seemed to me more open minded.

[Darkstarshades]

Now that I remember, in the original TA announcement thread, I joked with other guys (Don't recall who) about a possible TA plot

"Arhys will be the hero, as he will sacrifice his life and neglect his kid and wife, all for Gabriel to be happy"

Well, shit.

YES, THE ASTONISHING idea was originally MINE, not HIS, I conceived it waaay back in 2005 with OCTAVARIUM, the song NEVER ENOUGH was foreshadowing this, but I couldn't work on it because that was THE CONCEPT ALBUM I planned to do after BC&SL!!! The first act would have been this new album and the second act would be MY 12 STEP SUITE.

So it's confirmed.

[MinistroRaven]

Now that I remember, in the original TA announcement thread, I joked with other guys (Don't recall who) about a possible TA plot

"Arhys will be the hero, as he will sacrifice his life and neglect his kid and wife, all for Gabriel to be happy"

Well, shit.

YES, THE ASTONISHING idea was originally MINE, not HIS, I conceived it waaay back in 2005 with OCTAVARIUM, the song NEVER ENOUGH was foreshadowing this, but I couldn't work on it because that was THE CONCEPT ALBUM I planned to do after BC&SL!!! The first act would have been this new album and the second act would be MY 12 STEP SUITE.

So it's confirmed.

What's that you wrote in green letters? Who said those words? Where? Source?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I don't think they need any help with song arrangements, though I'm sure they would be open to a producer's opinion. I think SW would be exceedingly beneficial from a sonic perspective. I love how his albums sound. They're this perfect balance between each instrument and vocals. Granted, his albums portray a different mood from that of DT, but I can't help but feel that there are a handful of moments on the last few releases that could have been approached better.

That's fair, I'd agree that Steven's stuff usually sounds fantastic from a sonic perspective. It's the difference in mood that would cause me to pause, but it would definitely be an interesting collaboration.

From a sonic perspective, I think The Astonishing sounded great so maybe DT is on the right track. The cymbals could be higher in the mix but my guess is that it's already competing with the sonic space filled by the orchestra, so they dialed it down.

It was better, I'd say the one sonic element that could have been better were the drums.  Like you said, a lot of the cymbal work was lost.

Steven usually goes for a mix that has a good bit of breathing room, DT usually does not.

I would also take a SW mix over a DT any day, any time; but to be fair they're far too different, arrangement-wise, to be compared.

On The Astonishing, Rudess is playing 95% of the time, and the orchestra is playing also 95% of the time (in one form or the other). Steven Wilson has mastered a craft, as I see it, of making something sound big without the need of layering it endlessly; so the mixing approach is completely different. It's easier to make all your elements in a song pop out if you have less layers of stuff going on.

[mikeyd23]

Oh yeah totally agree. DT are typically going for much denser arrangements than SW, so the end result usually ends up being a denser mix.

[dtvoices94]

I'd still be listening to it today if Fates Warning hadn't released Theories of Flight.

[KevShmev]

Like has been said, SW isn't a fan of DT's style, so I am not sure he would be a good fit when it came to helping shape the songs and whatnot, but he could certainly help when it comes to mixing and sound.  Listening to TA today in the car, there is a mellow moment in The X Aspect where the vibe is really nice overall, but Mangini is hitting the drums way too hard during that section; I remember some saying that was a problem in Along for the Ride, as well. A guy like SW as the producer would a) tell Mangini to hit the drums softer, and b) mix it to where they weren't so damn loud during a section where everything else is toned down to fit the vibe they were clearly going for.