*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[Mladen]

I think Dream Theater officially reached their anthemic peak with the Brother can you hear me theme. Truly glorious.

[SebastianPratesi]

This is weird:

"Dream Theater's world tour in support of The Astonishing ends in South America in July."

(source: https://teamrock.com/news/2016-05-24/dream-theater-the-astonishing-follow-up-no-concept-album-jordan-rudess)

I know the album trailer states implies that there will be further touring for the album in 2017, and I know they haven't played Japan, Australia, the south of the States, etc. That's why I think it's weird.

[goo-goo]

My guess is that they are going to do another touring cycle with selected songs from The Astonishing and other albums. I don't think the touring cycle is over for this album but will not play the TA album completely.

[MirrorMask]

Wasn't bosk himself that reported that Petrucci told him that it's a too much expensive production to use it one time only? I assume there will be more full Astonishing shows, we'll see I guess...

[barho]

Wasn't bosk himself that reported that Petrucci told him that it's a too much expensive production to use it one time only? I assume there will be more full Astonishing shows, we'll see I guess...

"Yes, we shall see" 

[bosk1]

I don't remember saying exactly that.  But what I did say is that JP said they had plans to definitely film and release a performance.

[MirrorMask]

I may remember wrong, of course. I do remember however *someone* (Noxon maybe?) reporting that Petrucci told him specifically that this tour was something too big and expensive to do it as a one time thing.

[hefdaddy42]

I was totally hoping a "My brother Gabriel is all the hope..." TGOM reprise at Astonishing, was a colossal letdown when it didn't happen.
I think the issue with the last part of the album is that it lacks this anthemic feel that TGOM sets, sure, it's awesome at Hymn of a Thousand Voices, but that's pretty much it.

For me, the ending is pretty anthemic, specifically the following:

The ending of Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World, which really feels like a 90s rock anthem
The ending of The Astonishing "Eternally in harmony..." is really an epic closer

I agree 100%.  Like, I can't even understand when people say that the ending is lackluster or even that Disc 2 is weak.  I understand that opinions vary, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

[smegolas]

There are already 11 single-disc DT albums. TA is great as it is. If it was a matter of choosing, I would prefer it to be longer than shorter.

Exactly.  I don't get the people who say it is too long.  You don't have to listen to it all in one go!  I think I've done that just once, and its my favourite album ever.  One of the most varied albums ever made, and certainly DTs most varied.  Shortening it would diminish its greatest strength.

[Evermind]

Wasn't bosk himself that reported that Petrucci told him that it's a too much expensive production to use it one time only? I assume there will be more full Astonishing shows, we'll see I guess...

I'm not sure it was bosk, but I definitely remember seeing this statement somewhere on DTF.

[KevShmev]

Given the lukewarm reaction by fans to the album, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed plans.

[JRuless]

Given the lukewarm reaction by fans to the album, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed plans.

lukewarm? What brings you to this conclusion?

[SwedishGoose]

Indeed... love this album...
DTs best in a long while....

[jakepriest]

Given the lukewarm reaction by fans to the album, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed plans.

lukewarm? What brings you to this conclusion?

DT's FB being spammed by haters more often than ever would be something that supports this theory.

[KevShmev]

Given the lukewarm reaction by fans to the album, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed plans.

lukewarm? What brings you to this conclusion?

For one, too many negative reviews about the shows, especially when compared to just about every other tour they've done since I've been a fan.

To jakepriest's point about FB, social media usually does bring out the loudest and biggest dopes on the net, who love to criticize, but just what I have read just about everywhere, while there are a lot of us who love the album, there are a lot who do not, and if the live shows are not getting as positive reaction as their shows usually do, which probably isn't helped by they all being seated shows, the band will notice that and adjust accordingly.  I can't imagine they would keep touring playing just this record for another year plus if the reactions aren't glowing.  They could have toured for three years straight with Scenes from a Memory, because that album pretty much got universal praise from the fans; sadly, The Astonishing has not.

[Mosh]

It seems lukewarm even on this forum. An album like The Astonishing was pretty much guaranteed to divide the fan base.

Yup.  I still think a track early on in Act II about the fighting between the common folk and the GNE would have been cool and added just a bit more depth and dimension to the story, while also serving to make Act II just feel a bit more meaty and adding balance between the two acts.

This would've actually worked well for the narrative. It isn't uncommon for the second act of a 2 act structure to open with something that doesn't focus on the main characters, but rather highlights the overarching conflict/etc, before going back to the story with the main characters. Not only does this give the audience a break from the main storyline, but it creates suspense and gives us an idea of the stakes and struggle of the story. The album is kind of missing these things, especially in the second act. It just gets too focused on the main characters and the whole conflict seems extremely small scale.

That's really nitpicking it though. The major problem with the second disc for me is that the music just isn't very interesting and it's too focused on the story. The first disc really hit that sweet spot between telling a story while also having really engaging music and the second disc dropped the ball on that. In DT's defense though, this is a pitfall of nearly every double concept album ever made.

[BelichickFan]

I love The Astonishing. Whenever I put it on, at whatever starting point, I'm blown away. That said, I'm not sure it was a great financial move. It was a costly CD to make and while ticket prices were higher, they played generally a little smaller venues, some of which weren't sold out. I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled the plug on The Astonishing tour and toured again next year in a standard format to make some money before starting the next CD in 12-18 months. I may be wrong, they may have made big money from this CD/tour but I don't think so.

[Dream Team]

I was totally hoping a "My brother Gabriel is all the hope..." TGOM reprise at Astonishing, was a colossal letdown when it didn't happen.
I think the issue with the last part of the album is that it lacks this anthemic feel that TGOM sets, sure, it's awesome at Hymn of a Thousand Voices, but that's pretty much it.

For me, the ending is pretty anthemic, specifically the following:

The ending of Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World, which really feels like a 90s rock anthem
The ending of The Astonishing "Eternally in harmony..." is really an epic closer

I agree 100%.  Like, I can't even understand when people say that the ending is lackluster or even that Disc 2 is weak.  I understand that opinions vary, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

Totally agree. That run from TWS through ONW is flawless IMO.

[KevShmev]

The major problem with the second disc for me is that the music just isn't very interesting and it's too focused on the story. The first disc really hit that sweet spot between telling a story while also having really engaging music and the second disc dropped the ball on that. In DT's defense though, this is a pitfall of nearly every double concept album ever made.

So true. Double concept albums like Snow and The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway have a similar format: terrific first disc; second disc that is good, but not nearly as good as the first.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

People on the internet are jerks. It's like being behind a computer entitles everyone to talk shit about anything/anyone. This is one of the few places where I can have nice conversation with people about music (prog, for example) without them going like DT SUX LAME JLB SUX HAKEN IS TEH NEW DT THEY GODS THE REST OF PROG SHIT.

[Mosh]

People on the internet are jerks. It's like being behind a computer entitles everyone to talk shit about anything/anyone. This is one of the few places where I can have nice conversation with people about music (prog, for example) without them going like DT SUX LAME JLB SUX HAKEN IS TEH NEW DT THEY GODS THE REST OF PROG SHIT.

Unless you go into the Haken thread.

[cramx3]

People on the internet are jerks. It's like being behind a computer entitles everyone to talk shit about anything/anyone. This is one of the few places where I can have nice conversation with people about music (prog, for example) without them going like DT SUX LAME JLB SUX HAKEN IS TEH NEW DT THEY GODS THE REST OF PROG SHIT.

True. I mean its cool to have negative opinions given music is subjective, but when people just say something like the example above (which is exaggeration, but we've all seen it) is when it's just annoying.  Here we can talk about the album freely given the rules of the forum, just be respectful.  The album's great if you ask me, but that doesn't mean I have some negative feelings towards different parts.  I'm still lost on how this album ranks compared to the discography, but I know it's not near the bottom nor is it near the top.

[Prog Snob]

I was totally hoping a "My brother Gabriel is all the hope..." TGOM reprise at Astonishing, was a colossal letdown when it didn't happen.
I think the issue with the last part of the album is that it lacks this anthemic feel that TGOM sets, sure, it's awesome at Hymn of a Thousand Voices, but that's pretty much it.

For me, the ending is pretty anthemic, specifically the following:

The ending of Hymn of a Thousand Voices
Our New World, which really feels like a 90s rock anthem
The ending of The Astonishing "Eternally in harmony..." is really an epic closer

I agree 100%.  Like, I can't even understand when people say that the ending is lackluster or even that Disc 2 is weak.  I understand that opinions vary, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm with you on that. I feel like the second half of the second disc especially is filled with such climactic events that bring the story's themes to the forefront. Between Faythe's "death", Gabriel regaining his voice, and Nefaryus' realization, the ending is laden with emotion.

[red barchetta]

It seems lukewarm even on this forum. An album like The Astonishing was pretty much guaranteed to divide the fan base.

Yup.  I still think a track early on in Act II about the fighting between the common folk and the GNE would have been cool and added just a bit more depth and dimension to the story, while also serving to make Act II just feel a bit more meaty and adding balance between the two acts.

This would've actually worked well for the narrative. It isn't uncommon for the second act of a 2 act structure to open with something that doesn't focus on the main characters, but rather highlights the overarching conflict/etc, before going back to the story with the main characters. Not only does this give the audience a break from the main storyline, but it creates suspense and gives us an idea of the stakes and struggle of the story. The album is kind of missing these things, especially in the second act. It just gets too focused on the main characters and the whole conflict seems extremely small scale.

That's really nitpicking it though. The major problem with the second disc for me is that the music just isn't very interesting and it's too focused on the story. The first disc really hit that sweet spot between telling a story while also having really engaging music and the second disc dropped the ball on that. In DT's defense though, this is a pitfall of nearly every double concept album ever made.

Could not agree more. Disc 2 music is very boring. Out new world is about the only the thing good. Ī was listening today to SFAM and noticed that the lenght of it is about 70 minutes. A great concept album and TA, imo, would have been better if shorter.

[red barchetta]

People on the internet are jerks. It's like being behind a computer entitles everyone to talk shit about anything/anyone. This is one of the few places where I can have nice conversation with people about music (prog, for example) without them going like DT SUX LAME JLB SUX HAKEN IS TEH NEW DT THEY GODS THE REST OF PROG SHIT.

True. I mean its cool to have negative opinions given music is subjective, but when people just say something like the example above (which is exaggeration, but we've all seen it) is when it's just annoying.  Here we can talk about the album freely given the rules of the forum, just be respectful.  The album's great if you ask me, but that doesn't mean I have some negative feelings towards different parts.  I'm still lost on how this album ranks compared to the discography, but I know it's not near the bottom nor is it near the top.

There is a lot of crap comments on Facebook, I agree. But there are a lot of positive and negative comments from people who attended the shows. Or they are all a bunch of liars?

Here it's not easy to understand what is ok or not. If you have a negative comment, be very politicaly correct about it.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

There are positive comments as well, but it usually goes like this:

*In response to Rudess saying that the next album is gonna be different*
Person 1: I'm glad... because The Astonishing BLOWS. I really hope they get their shit together and write something heavy, dark with balls!! They are so lame now.
Person 2: Yeah, WTF were they thinking? DT died with Portnoy's departure
Person 3: Hey, I LOVED The Astonishing. Keep it up DT! Screw the haters.
Person 4: Last good album was Metropolis Pt. 2.

Same people that keep posting on MP's facebook page 6 years after his departure after he has stated several times that reading such comments is hurtful to some extent:
Pls come back...DT is not the same without you. OR
DT is so much better without you.

I mean, internet is a good place to be open about things but are people just that ungrateful and bitter about some things? It's music, for God's sake. It's something that exists to make our lives better, not to create a friggin' competition and hate. I don't like Beyoncé, but I don't go through life bitching about how much she sucks or how much pop music sucks or whatever. I respect and admire that her music touches the souls of so many people, and that should be enough... I mean, that's what music is about, isn't it? It's okay if you don't like a certain album or band, but you don't have to be so bitchy and vocal about it, while insulting the band's hard work (and the band themselves) on the process.

At moments, I feel that such comments fall easily under the 'HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME! I HATE THIS ALBUM BECAUSE MY MUSIC TASTE IS SO REFINED AND SUPERIOR!' category, and sadly I think that many prog fans over the globe fall under that category.

[Mladen]

I really hope the band sticks to their guns and continues performing the entire album throughout the rest of the tour. It would be weird if they needed to compromise now, it's not like their other albums never divided the fan base. It's up to the band's management to find locations that are willing to bring the band even though they're performing only the new stuff and figure out how to make enough money out of it.

It was evident that there wasn't as much interest for this type of show in the Eastern Europe, that's why no Eastern Europe cities got this show. But if they come to Budapest or Vienna going "alright, we fixed the set, we'll only play some of The Astonishing, plus stuff like Pull me under, The Spirit carries on and On the backs of angels", I'd be disappointed not to see the entire rock opera the way it was intended to be seen.

[red barchetta]

There are positive comments as well, but it usually goes like this:

*In response to Rudess saying that the next album is gonna be different*
Person 1: I'm glad... because The Astonishing BLOWS. I really hope they get their shit together and write something heavy, dark with balls!! They are so lame now.
Person 2: Yeah, WTF were they thinking? DT died with Portnoy's departure
Person 3: Hey, I LOVED The Astonishing. Keep it up DT! Screw the haters.
Person 4: Last good album was Metropolis Pt. 2.

Same people that keep posting on MP's facebook page 6 years after his departure after he has stated several times that reading such comments is hurtful to some extent:
Pls come back...DT is not the same without you. OR
DT is so much better without you.

I mean, internet is a good place to be open about things but are people just that ungrateful and bitter about some things? It's music, for God's sake. It's something that exists to make our lives better, not to create a friggin' competition and hate. I don't like Beyoncé, but I don't go through life bitching about how much she sucks or how much pop music sucks or whatever. I respect and admire that her music touches the souls of so many people, and that should be enough... I mean, that's what music is about, isn't it? It's okay if you don't like a certain album or band, but you don't have to be so bitchy and vocal about it, while insulting the band's hard work (and the band themselves) on the process.

At moments, I feel that such comments fall easily under the 'HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME! I HATE THIS ALBUM BECAUSE MY MUSIC TASTE IS SO REFINED AND SUPERIOR!', and sadly I think that many prog fans over the globe fall under that category.

There is a distinction we have to make about FC comments.  I understand your point about Beyoucé but the fact is that you are not really interested by her music.  You won't bash, you won't love it.   People on FB bashing DT are usually people not really fans.  But many are fans and have been disappointed by the album or the show.  Their opinions has a value.  I mean, I remember when Rush did Mystics Rythms.  I could not dig that song and for a few tours they were playing it.  What? My all time fav band is now doing what? I'm sure that if FB or a online band forum would have existed back then, they would have known about it.  Even if Mystics Rythms had a nice flow and the chords together were fine, it was not something I was expecting to hear from Rush.  And I could name some others like Tai Chan or whatever it was called.

As a fan, as a client, you have the right to expose your opinions.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I don't think that anyone is saying you can't expose your opinions. I think the point is that people should expose their opinions as though they were giving feedback to the band face-to-face, in which case most people would probably be cool about it, and not say ridiculous things like, "DT SUCKS THIS BAND IS EMBARRASSING ROAR!"

There are positive comments as well, but it usually goes like this:

*In response to Rudess saying that the next album is gonna be different*
Person 1: I'm glad... because The Astonishing BLOWS. I really hope they get their shit together and write something heavy, dark with balls!! They are so lame now.
Person 2: Yeah, WTF were they thinking? DT died with Portnoy's departure
Person 3: Hey, I LOVED The Astonishing. Keep it up DT! Screw the haters.
Person 4: Last good album was Metropolis Pt. 2.

Same people that keep posting on MP's facebook page 6 years after his departure after he has stated several times that reading such comments is hurtful to some extent:
Pls come back...DT is not the same without you. OR
DT is so much better without you.

I mean, internet is a good place to be open about things but are people just that ungrateful and bitter about some things? It's music, for God's sake. It's something that exists to make our lives better, not to create a friggin' competition and hate. I don't like Beyoncé, but I don't go through life bitching about how much she sucks or how much pop music sucks or whatever. I respect and admire that her music touches the souls of so many people, and that should be enough... I mean, that's what music is about, isn't it? It's okay if you don't like a certain album or band, but you don't have to be so bitchy and vocal about it, while insulting the band's hard work (and the band themselves) on the process.

At moments, I feel that such comments fall easily under the 'HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME! I HATE THIS ALBUM BECAUSE MY MUSIC TASTE IS SO REFINED AND SUPERIOR!', and sadly I think that many prog fans over the globe fall under that category.

Awesome post.

[hefdaddy42]

while there are a lot of us who love the album, there are a lot who do not

That literally happens with every album they have put out since I&W.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

As a fan, as a client, you have the right to expose your opinions.

True, but a couple of observations:

1) The band is not doing you any favors when they release new music. If you don't like their most recent output, you're totally free to ignore it and state you don't like it in a respectful, constructive manner; which is very, very different to state you absolutely hate it, that you think it's pure shit and that the band should quit and fire James LaBrie because he can't sing anymore and that the band died when Mike Portnoy left (I'm purposely using hyperbole in my recent posts to help me illustrate my point and not because every criticism sounds like that). That's pure, unaltered education.

2) As TOX stated, the face-to-face thing is very important in my opinion. Writing whatever mindless hate and bashing comes to you behind a computer makes things easier because you can just rant about things and no one will care or see you, except those who take very seriously comments found on websites like youtube. I mean, one can meet James LaBrie at the subway or something and just be respectful even if you don't like what the man brings to the table. Is it so hard to be like that on the internet? I think it is. Speaking of the prog fans I mentioned on my post, the urge of letting the world know your music taste is so refined is big.

Awesome post.

[Mladen]

Wow, how I love when someone completely nails it. Great points all around.

[cramx3]

I really hope the band sticks to their guns and continues performing the entire album throughout the rest of the tour. It would be weird if they needed to compromise now, it's not like their other albums never divided the fan base. It's up to the band's management to find locations that are willing to bring the band even though they're performing only the new stuff and figure out how to make enough money out of it.

It was evident that there wasn't as much interest for this type of show in the Eastern Europe, that's why no Eastern Europe cities got this show. But if they come to Budapest or Vienna going "alright, we fixed the set, we'll only play some of The Astonishing, plus stuff like Pull me under, The Spirit carries on and On the backs of angels", I'd be disappointed not to see the entire rock opera the way it was intended to be seen.

Even if they didnt continue playing TA, I don't think that is really a sign of compromise.  Typically when DT has done multiple legs for support of an album they shuffle the setlist between legs of the same regions.  Granted, if it was true that DT spent a lot on this tour and took a hit to no longer play TA, then I would say that is the band compromising, but there is no reason to believe that.   The only thing that would suck is for like your example, if they played in cities that didnt get TA on the next leg.  Still, that's part of touring and how it works out sometimes.

[red barchetta]

I don't think that anyone is saying you can't expose your opinions. I think the point is that people should expose their opinions as though they were giving feedback to the band face-to-face, in which case most people would probably be cool about it, and not say ridiculous things like, "DT SUCKS THIS BAND IS EMBARRASSING ROAR!"

There are positive comments as well, but it usually goes like this:

*In response to Rudess saying that the next album is gonna be different*
Person 1: I'm glad... because The Astonishing BLOWS. I really hope they get their shit together and write something heavy, dark with balls!! They are so lame now.
Person 2: Yeah, WTF were they thinking? DT died with Portnoy's departure
Person 3: Hey, I LOVED The Astonishing. Keep it up DT! Screw the haters.
Person 4: Last good album was Metropolis Pt. 2.

Same people that keep posting on MP's facebook page 6 years after his departure after he has stated several times that reading such comments is hurtful to some extent:
Pls come back...DT is not the same without you. OR
DT is so much better without you.

I mean, internet is a good place to be open about things but are people just that ungrateful and bitter about some things? It's music, for God's sake. It's something that exists to make our lives better, not to create a friggin' competition and hate. I don't like Beyoncé, but I don't go through life bitching about how much she sucks or how much pop music sucks or whatever. I respect and admire that her music touches the souls of so many people, and that should be enough... I mean, that's what music is about, isn't it? It's okay if you don't like a certain album or band, but you don't have to be so bitchy and vocal about it, while insulting the band's hard work (and the band themselves) on the process.

At moments, I feel that such comments fall easily under the 'HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME! I HATE THIS ALBUM BECAUSE MY MUSIC TASTE IS SO REFINED AND SUPERIOR!', and sadly I think that many prog fans over the globe fall under that category.

Awesome post.

Well, people saying that DT sucks and that this band is embarrassing are not fans.

[red barchetta]

As a fan, as a client, you have the right to expose your opinions.

True, but a couple of observations:

1) The band is not doing you any favors when they release new music. If you don't like their most recent output, you're totally free to ignore it and state you don't like it in a respectful, constructive manner; which is very, very different to state you absolutely hate it, that you think it's pure shit and that the band should quit and fire James LaBrie because he can't sing anymore and that the band died when Mike Portnoy left (I'm purposely using hyperbole in my recent posts to help me illustrate my point and not because every criticism sounds like that). That's pure, unaltered education.

2) As TOX stated, the face-to-face thing is very important in my opinion. Writing whatever mindless hate and bashing comes to you behind a computer makes things easier because you can just rant about things and no one will care or see you, except those who take very seriously comments found on websites like youtube. I mean, one can meet James LaBrie at the subway or something and just be respectful even if you don't like what the man brings to the table. Is it so hard to be like that on the internet? I think it is. Speaking of the prog fans I mentioned on my post, the urge of letting the world know your music taste is so refined is big.

Awesome post.

I agree with you. And comments like these can't come from fans. For exemple, if you want to fire JLB, that's not serious. You have to hate him I guess to say that and you cannot be a fan of a band if you don't like the singer.