*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[Moor]

Sorry guys byt Mangini's burp at 7:51 is priceless 

[bosk1]

There's a difference between adding/writing a part of a song, and writing a part of the song that is crucial and distinctive enough to the song to be a part of the copyrighted composition.
Drums rarely count (in the legal sense) because their purpose is largely to keep the beat of a song, and is not usually an essential and unique enough component. Does Phil Rudd deserve a writing credit for playing a basic 4/4 beat to every single AC/DC song? Where do we draw the line? Even though that's a more extreme case, I'd say there are very few times the drums count for enough to deserve credit, regardless of how intricate or difficult they may be.

Copyright is really about who created the bare essence of a song. Whether DT want to credit the whole out of diplomacy, or credit people individually, doesn't make a difference to me. We know every member of the band has contributed their own part to the album.

Yup, all of that.  This is an OLD (and somewhat obscure to most) example, but it was a very clear one to me that taught me about songwriting credit a long time ago.  Look at track #4 here:  https://www.allmusic.com/album/contagious-mw0000196388  Jimmy DeGrasso (drummer; you probably know his name from playing in Megadeth later on) is credited as a songwriter on this song and only one other one on the album.  The reason he is credited on this track is that he brought in that cool rock shuffle beat, and guitarist Dave Meniketti and bassist Phil Kennemore then came up with the riffs and chord progressions based on that beat, and they wrote the song around it.  That, to me, is a good example of where a drummer who does not write riffs or chord progressions and does not actively participate much in the arranging gets song writing credit.

[Dream Team]

For those in the know, how does it work for some talentless ho like Britney Spears who has never written a note but makes millions? Is the contract based around "performer" royalties, or what?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The Mangini gives no fucks about anyone or anything.

He just eats.

That's the dream.

[SchecterShredder]

For those in the know, how does it work for some talentless ho like Britney Spears who has never written a note but makes millions? Is the contract based around "performer" royalties, or what?

In many cases (especially in pop) the songs are written by an individual or group, then sold to the artist for a 1 time fee at which point the writers lose all rights to future royalties.

[cramx3]

For those in the know, how does it work for some talentless ho like Britney Spears who has never written a note but makes millions? Is the contract based around "performer" royalties, or what?

In many cases (especially in pop) the songs are written by an individual or group, then sold to the artist for a 1 time fee at which point the writers lose all rights to future royalties.

Why would they do that?  Seems like there's a large potential of money to be made by not selling your rights to a pop artist.

[Calvin6s]

Why would they do that?  Seems like there's a large potential of money to be made by not selling your rights to a pop artist.

Because making a large sum from Britney, Bieber or the latest chart topper is more than making a percentage of some semi-pop star.

It is kind of like the 10% of lots is better than 100% of nothing idiom.

[SchecterShredder]

For those in the know, how does it work for some talentless ho like Britney Spears who has never written a note but makes millions? Is the contract based around "performer" royalties, or what?

In many cases (especially in pop) the songs are written by an individual or group, then sold to the artist for a 1 time fee at which point the writers lose all rights to future royalties.

Why would they do that?  Seems like there's a large potential of money to be made by not selling your rights to a pop artist.

That one's pretty easy. I can write a really great song and record it in my basement no problem, but almost nobody would hear it and I make nothing. If I take that same song and sell it to Taylor Swift then I get paid for the song. Sure, she gets the fame and credit, but I still get paid as a musician. It's not ideal, but that's the way it works for  a lot of professional musicians.

[SchecterShredder]

For those in the know, how does it work for some talentless ho like Britney Spears who has never written a note but makes millions? Is the contract based around "performer" royalties, or what?

In many cases (especially in pop) the songs are written by an individual or group, then sold to the artist for a 1 time fee at which point the writers lose all rights to future royalties.

Why would they do that?  Seems like there's a large potential of money to be made by not selling your rights to a pop artist.

Works the same for photography. You can put it out there on websites like Stocksy or SmugMug and get paid a small amount for its use.

[Calvin6s]

People sometimes make poor decisions with their songwriting as well.  Too attached to their own work like it is their ticket to fame.  That's true for so few people and sometimes it is just the luck of events out of your control.

Some that won't give up the song for that local entrepreneur to use in their TV commercial or the YouTube X-Games bike sensation.  "No way.  That's my best song. That's for my breakout album."  Maybe the breakout was all the people talking about it on YouTube because they tuned in to watch the crazy bike gymnastics.  Oh no.  Now you are the X-Games music guy.  You aren't anybody's monkey.  You are more than X-Games tricks.

Get over yourself.  If you don't want to share your music, then expect a long hard road that most likely will lead nowhere.

[cramx3]

Oh wait, so these song writers are writing songs just in general?  I was thinking the writer was writing it FOR Britney and then selling it to Britney.  If not, then yeah, that's a no brainer take the money and run. 

[MirrorMask]

Well, there are session musicians, they learn a set and fill in for a drummer or guitarist and they don't even know the name of the albums the songs are on. It's a job in the end, you write a song and then you give it away.

[Kotowboy]

Meh.

There's a website online called www.sentricmusic.com . You upload music and if a suitable commercial or placement comes up - they can buy your song for that ad or whatever.

I gave up using it myself as I was getting bored of submitting music and getting nothing back.

But yeah . I'd gladly write music for ads or tv shows or whatever and be 100% anonymous.


If I could get a big paycheck every month because I got a piece of music on a commercial or TV show or whatever and nobody knew who I was ? That would be the ultimate.

I don't give a flying crap about being famous.

[cramx3]

Im not a musician or have links to the business in anyway so I am just ignorant how it all works.  I find it amazing that a session musician wouldn't know who the music is for that they are playing.

[mikeyd23]

My band used to play out with another group whose guitarist wrote stuff for TV. If I remember right, he recorded a bunch of stuff for Spike TV for their promos and whatnot. All these deals can vary, but I think he negotiated a deal where he got paid a certain amount of money every time they aired his work. He had one thing they used to run almost every commercial break, he cleaned up.

[Calvin6s]

Some of that is just knowing somebody (or somebody that knows a dude that knows a chick)

[Kotowboy]

That's the goal.

Write instrumental music or jingles or whatever to order. Work from home.

[mikeyd23]

Some of that is just knowing somebody (or somebody that knows a dude that knows a chick)

For sure, my buddy totally had a connection at the network and that was the only reason he got the opportunity. He was a good player, but nothing special.

[bosk1]

The above scenario (i.e. where the writer sells the song, including all rights, to the artist) is very common, for the reasons already stated.  To put one of the reasons that happens slightly differently, some of these writers simply do not have the leverage to insist on retaining rights to the songs.  Think about it.  There are LOTS of song writers out there.  If you wrote a cookie-cutter potential pop hit, but want to retain certain publishing rights, and writer Y out there wrote one and is willing to sell away all rights, whose song is Taylor Swift (or Britney, or whoever) going to buy?

But some artists do write songs and retain the rights.  Go back to the site I posted above.  Actually, here it is:  https://www.allmusic.com/album/contagious-mw0000196388  Look at track #3.  Al Pitrelli was not in the band, but he co-wrote that song.  And Taylor Rhodes shows up on tracks 1, 8, and 9.  He is (was) a professional writer for a lot of bands.  He was not in this band.  But the band and label wanted to use him to try to get some potential "hits."  Or think of a guy like Prince or Bowie, who wrote tons of songs for tons of bands.  Or another professional writer like Desmond Child, who is credited with You Not Me, for example, or who wrote/co-wrote the Scorpions album Humanity: Hour 1, and has done the same for tons of other artists.  There are lots of guys like this.  Sometimes they retain the publishing rights; sometimes not.  It just depends on the contract.  But there is money to be made either way.

[Calvin6s]

I had a friend that passed on putting out music for BMX promos that would go everywhere. I don't remember my advice to him, but there is a good chance my youth had me telling him "No way dude.  That's selling out."     Can't remember the exact time I went from protective of copyright to not even caring if the latest hemorrhoid commercial somehow stole my music.

[Calvin6s]

Not that it is a real possibility in my case, but not only do I no longer care about the legal claim, I don't even care about a nod.

But what would bother me is if I was accused of being derivative of a song I wrote because nobody knew I wrote the song.  "Dude, your song on SoundCloud is just a ripoff of that Y&T song (or Metallica song (or Images and Words song)).  Yeah.  I ripped myself off.

Also, the Y&T example is probably yet another reason that Al Pitrelli has managed to achieve what he has.  He might not be Lars Ulrich level fame, but he's doing well.  And it's because he isn't hung up on only putting out the Al Pitrelli Band debut, titled "Mine.  Don't Touch", that is just gonna redefine the music world.

[dtrocker25]

This discussion  has drifted  away from The Astonishing it seems

[BlobVanDam]

After 90 pages of discussion, I'm surprised we haven't drifted off further.

[Moor]

The Mangini gives no fucks about anyone or anything.

He just eats.

That's the dream.

In French eating means "manger" spelled "mangeh" and who he eats may be called mangini  .

[cramx3]

The Mangini gives no fucks about anyone or anything.

He just eats.

That's the dream.

In French eating means "manger" spelled "mangeh" and who he eats may be called mangini  .

Mangiare means eat in Italian.  It all makes sense now.

[Logain Ablar]

A "Making Of" video now up on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65nGsTQSnv8

It's about the making of the visuals for the tour, rather than the recording of the album.

[cramx3]

A "Making Of" video now up on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65nGsTQSnv8

It's about the making of the visuals for the tour, rather than the recording of the album.

I don't think that was meant to be released yet as it is now private.

[Logain Ablar]

A "Making Of" video now up on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65nGsTQSnv8

It's about the making of the visuals for the tour, rather than the recording of the album.

I don't think that was meant to be released yet as it is now private.

You're right! I must have been lucky to watch it before they set it as private.

Oh well, I'm sure it will be released in due course. I'll not spoil the surprise. 

[Shooters1221]

A "Making Of" video now up on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65nGsTQSnv8

It's about the making of the visuals for the tour, rather than the recording of the album.

I don't think that was meant to be released yet as it is now private.

You're right! I must have been lucky to watch it before they set it as private.

Oh well, I'm sure it will be released in due course. I'll not spoil the surprise. 

Man, I got an official email and it is set to private......

[Logain Ablar]

Looks like the video is there again, but at this link now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZcT5ECISN4

[Enigmachine]

Some of the visual work was actually really cool in context of the live performance. However, what the video did the most was remind me how awesome TGoM is. The opening three tracks of TA (DotN+DO+TGoM) would probably be among the best 10 songs tbh.

[Kotowboy]

For the first time in DT history watch a band member eating and drinking for 9 minutes straight !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NnLo-ihSF8

What is that thing ? Ice Cream and chocolate ?!

[Another_Won]

For the first time in DT history watch a band member eating and drinking for 9 minutes straight !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NnLo-ihSF8

What is that thing ? Ice Cream and chocolate ?!

It's very distracting, but appears to be delicious  Once you can actually hear some of the other questions and answers, it's very informative.

[chaossystem]

Wonder where James and John M. were...

[SebastianPratesi]

Wonder where James and John M. were...

James is to John Petrucci's left. At 9:27 he is asked a question, so you can see him there.
I don't think John Myung is there, though.

Looks like the video is there again, but at this link now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZcT5ECISN4

Great video, thanks. It looks like it was a lot of work to create the visuals and silhouettes (they even had the kids dressed as Xander and Faythe) - to think I was bitching about the visuals in the trailer in January.

I just realized that the European leg has just finished! Hope you European fans had a great time in the shows.