*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[Kotowboy]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

Not Train of Thought heavy but thick and chuggy guitars.

[RuRoRul]

I kind of thought Dream Theater was one of their least heavy albums... The Enemy Inside is heavy, perhaps Behind The Veil and The Enigma machine would count too as well as parts of Illumination Theory (though overall it doesn't leave the impression of being a heavy epic) but overall I'd possibly have called it the least heavy since FII.

[ariich]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

I agree with you. While it think it's a slightly heavier album than, say, ADTOE, it's doesn't have the heaviness of TOT, SC, or even Awake.

Indeed.

[Enigmachine]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

Not Train of Thought heavy but thick and chuggy guitars.

Yeah, it's instrumentally and sonically heavy, not neccesarily that musically heavy (though FAS, TEI, EM, BtV and IT certainly are).

No it wasn't.  I got the sarcasm, my point was about the mock criticism that DT doesn't put feeling into their music.

Ah ok, sorry. That's something I can agree with. DT's music throughout their discography has always had passion to me even when it's in a 'safe' album.

I kind of thought Dream Theater was one of their least heavy albums... The Enemy Inside is heavy, perhaps Behind The Veil and The Enigma machine would count too as well as parts of Illumination Theory (though overall it doesn't leave the impression of being a heavy epic) but overall I'd possibly have called it the least heavy since FII.

I'd say SfaM, SDoIT, and 8vm are definitely less heavy and it could be seen to be heavier than BCaSL and ADToE too.

[RuRoRul]

Hmm, well I don't think I'm on the same wavelength when it comes to judging which album is heavier or not if DT12 could be considered heavier than some of those

Perhaps I tend to skew my opinion on what is a heavy album based on having the heaviest individual songs (even if it is mixed with material that is not heavy at all). Very little on DT12 comes close to as heavy as Beyond This Life, Home, The Glass Prison, A Nightmare To Rember, The Shattered Fortress, imo.

[rumborak]

I feel all post-MP albums have gone back to pre-ToT amount of heavy. I think MP was a strong drive in that direction.
Personally I think it works better for the band. While JP and MP seemed to be in their element in the heavy sections, JR was often struggling to add anything worthwhile.

[dparrott]

I would like the title of this thread to include "haters stay the f out".       

[KevShmev]

I feel all post-MP albums have gone back to pre-ToT amount of heavy. I think MP was a strong drive in that direction.
Personally I think it works better for the band. While JP and MP seemed to be in their element in the heavy sections, JR was often struggling to add anything worthwhile.

I think that is why DT12 is so good; its a pretty rocking album, and JR does mostly background and atmospheric lead stuff, playing more to his strengths.  Plus, the songs are all really good. 

[Enigmachine]

Hmm, well I don't think I'm on the same wavelength when it comes to judging which album is heavier or not if DT12 could be considered heavier than some of those

Perhaps I tend to skew my opinion on what is a heavy album based on having the heaviest individual songs (even if it is mixed with material that is not heavy at all). Very little on DT12 comes close to as heavy as Beyond This Life, Home, The Glass Prison, A Nightmare To Rember, The Shattered Fortress, imo.

That, as well as Enigma Machine being heavier than any one of those songs and TEI, FAS and BTV being more consistently heavy than BTL, ANtR and TSF.

SfaM has Regression, TMW, THE, OLT, TSCO and FF that aren't very heavy at all.

SDoiT has Dissapear, though BF, Misunderstood and the title track which are largely softer.

BCaSL has Wither and The Best of Times, 18 mins of lighter material as well as big chunks of ANtR, TSF and TCoT.

DT12, however only has three songs with softer sections and two ballady songs, one of which (AftR) is closer to an actual ballad but still has some heavy instrumentation. TBP is reasonably heavy from the first chorus until the bridge and IT has some of the heaviest stuff they've ever done with some of the lightest. The rest of DT12 is heavy prog rock or full-on prog metal.

its a pretty rocking album, and JR does mostly background and atmospheric lead stuff, playing more to his strengths.  Plus, the songs are all really good. 

I agree. Very good album that still holds up (though not much time has passed).

[Kotowboy]

I would like the title of this thread to include "haters stay the f out".       

Are you implying The Astonishing is a dog ?

[fischermasamune]

DT12 was pretty heavy too make up for it. In fact - seeing as how they were planning The Astonishing for two years - they might have deliberately made DT12 heavy .

JP said in the radio interview with Eddie Trunk that he had the initial idea of TA during the promotion of DT12. So no.

[dparrott]

I would like the title of this thread to include "haters stay the f out".       

Are you implying The Astonishing is a dog ?

haha no, just only want positive posts

[KevShmev]

I would like the title of this thread to include "haters stay the f out".       

Are you implying The Astonishing is a dog ?

haha no, just only want positive posts

Pssh, it's a discussion thread, not a "slurp TA" one.

All opinions, good and bad, should be welcomed.

[Kotowboy]

@Bosk or whoever....

1.  Does anyone know if the NOMAC eyes are ever supposed to do anything ?


2. Have we now seen both videos which should be filling the slots  ?

[noxon]

nope yes

[Kotowboy]

why make something clickable that doesn't do anything ?

[mike099]

why make something clickable that doesn't do anything ?

They did it just to mess with us

[theanalogkid7]

I guess the music video is supposed to be the second video on the page.

[ariich]

I would like the title of this thread to include "haters stay the f out".       

Are you implying The Astonishing is a dog ?

haha no, just only want positive posts

Pssh, it's a discussion thread, not a "slurp TA" one.

All opinions, good and bad, should be welcomed.

Indeed. dparrott's post does not represent the views of DTF.

[Kotowboy]

Forced to bear the lion's share

Ravenskill Shepherd of Ravenskill


The AnimalStonishing !

[BlobVanDam]

I can't be the only person who doesn't think DT12 was especially heavy. I don't know if maybe the overly loud production makes it sound heavier to a lot of people.

The songwriting wasn't very heavy, but the arrangements/mix were, and the completely overwhelming guitar makes the songs sound heavier than they should have been, as well as the in your face metal drum sound. So I sort of agree with both sides.

[Ben_Jamin]

I still don't understand what people mean by ballads. Is it because most songs begin with piano?

[theanalogkid7]

I still don't understand what people mean by ballads. Is it because most songs begin with piano?

I think that's very much part of it, but I also think it has to do with how the songs tend to be a more emotional than other DT songs in the past.  Even that, though, isn't saying it right as there are plenty of emotional DT songs.  I think it's because it's emotional and narrative.

[dparrott]

There are actually not too many full ballads on the album, they just start that way.  Those were an interesting surprise.

[erwinrafael]

Oh, and to add to my last post -- I think SFAM did a much better job of using the music to convey the story.

I made this point to a friend the other day, I think the problem is that JP was trying to drive along the plot with the lyrics of the songs. Not even musicals do that, they always have a lot of spoken dialogue to drive the plot, and then have the songs reserved for crucial sections that usually showcase a crucial emotional element of the plot.
So, TA wastes precious time on lyrics like "can you help me? Nope, busy. Oh, OK." or that Nafaryus goes on a trip. Key parts, like Nefaryus' change of mind from switching from an oppressive ruler to a benign supporter of the art, are shortchanged and don't come across as believable.
IMHO, TA should have been a written short story in the booklet, with all the details necessary to make all parts believable, and the songs would have focused on key characterand plot parts.

Some musicals are sung-through, Les Mis being probably the most famous example, and not to mention all operas which have little to no spoken parts. It's not like there isn't precedent for this in the arts, but you could still make the argument that some of the tracks aren't as engaging as others because they deal in less interesting subject matter.

Exactly. People who keep on insisting that they could have reduced this to 1 CD and insist that there is a lot of filler just keep on refusing to judge the work on its own terms. It is a rock musical, with the songs almost 95% telling the story.

[Lucien]

There is no filler.

[gm5k]

why make something clickable that doesn't do anything ?

Why have a gift you can't embrace?

I think "Chosen" is my favorite DT ballad since the FII era.

[BlobVanDam]

Exactly. People who keep on insisting that they could have reduced this to 1 CD and insist that there is a lot of filler just keep on refusing to judge the work on its own terms. It is a rock musical, with the songs almost 95% telling the story.

And some people keep insisting on using "rock opera" to refuse all criticism of the album, as if people who don't like it just don't get it. It's getting tiring and arrogant. Everyone gets it. It's a rock opera. It's different. Moving along....

The point rumby and others are making is that over two hours was not warranted to tell this story. Just because all of the lyrics are telling story doesn't mean it was all necessary, and couldn't have been told much more concisely and effectively. It's arguable it wasn't all that effective as it was, given there were parts of the story that weren't understood even from the lyrics, and required further explanation on the official site. It is still possible to have filler in a story, and it is still possible to have musical filler. Being a rock opera doesn't negate these criticisms, nor does debating the semantics of what constitutes "filler" or not. It's like with a movie. Just because a scene may have had a purpose, doesn't mean it's essential, which is why they can trim them down for the story and pacing to work more effectively as a whole unit.

[Adami]

Exactly. People who keep on insisting that they could have reduced this to 1 CD and insist that there is a lot of filler just keep on refusing to judge the work on its own terms. It is a rock musical, with the songs almost 95% telling the story.

And some people keep insisting on using "rock opera" to refuse all criticism of the album, as if people who don't like it just don't get it. It's getting tiring and arrogant. Everyone gets it. It's a rock opera. It's different. Moving along....

The point rumby and others are making is that over two hours was not warranted to tell this story. Just because all of the lyrics are telling story doesn't mean it was all necessary, and couldn't have been told much more concisely and effectively. It is still possible to have filler in a story, and it is still possible to have musical filler. Being a rock opera doesn't negate these criticisms, nor does debating the semantics of what constitutes "filler" or not. It's like with a movie. Just because a scene may have had a purpose, doesn't mean it's essential, which is why they can trim them down for the story and pacing to work more effectively as a whole unit.

This is very well said, articulated and explained. I really agree and appreciate you saying what I couldn't manage to.

[Tomislav95]

It's good sign when first thing in my head when I woke up was: "I remember your father was moved by my song..." and I didn't listened to that song in a few days.

[ariich]

Exactly. People who keep on insisting that they could have reduced this to 1 CD and insist that there is a lot of filler just keep on refusing to judge the work on its own terms. It is a rock musical, with the songs almost 95% telling the story.

And some people keep insisting on using "rock opera" to refuse all criticism of the album, as if people who don't like it just don't get it. It's getting tiring and arrogant. Everyone gets it. It's a rock opera. It's different. Moving along....

The point rumby and others are making is that over two hours was not warranted to tell this story. Just because all of the lyrics are telling story doesn't mean it was all necessary, and couldn't have been told much more concisely and effectively. It's arguable it wasn't all that effective as it was, given there were parts of the story that weren't understood even from the lyrics, and required further explanation on the official site. It is still possible to have filler in a story, and it is still possible to have musical filler. Being a rock opera doesn't negate these criticisms, nor does debating the semantics of what constitutes "filler" or not. It's like with a movie. Just because a scene may have had a purpose, doesn't mean it's essential, which is why they can trim them down for the story and pacing to work more effectively as a whole unit.

I disagree with the word "filler", in a narrative context. Complaints about pacing are one thing, and I get why people might feel the pacing is off, but it's all relevant to the narrative. "Filler" has a precise meaning - padding something out just to make it longer - that I just don't think applies in this context, particularly given the amount of narrative that was excluded. And that's probably what is bugging a lot of people. I know it's just semantics, but using a more derogatory word is naturally going to elicit that sort of reaction.

[Bertielee]

Exactly. People who keep on insisting that they could have reduced this to 1 CD and insist that there is a lot of filler just keep on refusing to judge the work on its own terms. It is a rock musical, with the songs almost 95% telling the story.

And some people keep insisting on using "rock opera" to refuse all criticism of the album, as if people who don't like it just don't get it. It's getting tiring and arrogant. Everyone gets it. It's a rock opera. It's different. Moving along....

The point rumby and others are making is that over two hours was not warranted to tell this story. Just because all of the lyrics are telling story doesn't mean it was all necessary, and couldn't have been told much more concisely and effectively. It's arguable it wasn't all that effective as it was, given there were parts of the story that weren't understood even from the lyrics, and required further explanation on the official site. It is still possible to have filler in a story, and it is still possible to have musical filler. Being a rock opera doesn't negate these criticisms, nor does debating the semantics of what constitutes "filler" or not. It's like with a movie. Just because a scene may have had a purpose, doesn't mean it's essential, which is why they can trim them down for the story and pacing to work more effectively as a whole unit.

I disagree with the word "filler", in a narrative context. Complaints about pacing are one thing, and I get why people might feel the pacing is off, but it's all relevant to the narrative. "Filler" has a precise meaning - padding something out just to make it longer - that I just don't think applies in this context, particularly given the amount of narrative that was excluded. And that's probably what is bugging a lot of people. I know it's just semantics, but using a more derogatory word is naturally going to elicit that sort of reaction.

Yep, I agree (once again?) with you, ariich. It's a problem of pacing, not of fillers. I feel that every track is necessary to the economy of the story even if I don't like the whole album and every single track on it.

B.Lee

edit : 1441 posts. Wow, I like mirror effects!

edit 2 : from JLB twitter : "Received my wardrobe from Wornstar, their threads are incredible. Can't wait for you all to see them. The tour is fast approaching. Raaawwk". Will he change clothes for every character? Can't wait to see his Arabelle and Faythe dresses!

[Jinx]

Agree with the ariich too. Actually I think they must have trimmed down a lot, there's much more that could've gone into it like the turning of Lord Nafaryus  (WHY does he use NOMACS if he loved music?), a more in depth explanation of Daryus' comeuppance, more info with the NOMACS themselves...

Also agree with a lot of people about Whispers On The Wind. Pretty sure it could've been one track with Losing Faythe. Also would be a double meaning with Gabriel losing faith in himself.

[Mladen]

I only recently realized a highly ironic thing - my favorite song from the album, A New Beginning, has to be the least relevant song to the actual story. I'm not sure what it added to the album lyrically.

[Bertielee]

Agree with the ariich too. Actually I think they must have trimmed down a lot, there's much more that could've gone into it like the turning of Lord Nafaryus  (WHY does he use NOMACS if he loved music?), a more in depth explanation of Daryus' comeuppance, more info with the NOMACS themselves...

Also agree with a lot of people about Whispers On The Wind. Pretty sure it could've been one track with Losing Faythe. Also would be a double meaning with Gabriel losing faith in himself.

As far as the NOMACS go, my 13-year-old son who likes TA a lot told me this morning : "The NOMACS don't really serve any purpose. It's a shame, I would have liked something more coming out of it". I completely agree with him.