I think DT12 is better than Images & Words

[wolfking]

I'd like to play both albums to a number of people that have never heard DT before and gather results and see what the general consensus would be.

EDIT: Actually, no that would be dumb and a waste of my time.

[erwinrafael]

From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography.

For me, it would make for a sad narrative of a band hitting a peak with its breakthrough and never matching it ever.

[425]

I consider myself a pretty narratively-minded person as well, and I usually have a more favorable view of bands' later albums than many of their fans do.

But I can't ignore the fact that I think this album is far and away the band's best just for the sake of a narrative.

[bl5150]

To be fair to zecawolf , he has been here just over a week......he may not even know there is a controversial opinions thread - or that his opinion is so controversial 

From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography.

For me, it would make for a sad narrative of a band hitting a peak with its breakthrough and never matching it ever.

I agree but it's true in many cases , including I&W for me.  In fact you could easily argue that case with many of my favourite bands , including Van Halen with their debut.      I know from my very limited recording experience that making an album using all your best ideas from many years prior is different to following it up soon after with something of equal quality........unless you just have endless brilliant ideas coming out of your @$$.  In Van Halen's case ,many of their best songs from later albums can be easily traced back to demos prior to their debut too.

[erwinrafael]

I agree but it's true in many cases , including I&W for me.  In fact you could easily argue that case with many of my favourite bands , including Van Halen with their debut.      I know from my very limited recording experience that making an album using all your best ideas from many years prior is different to following it up soon after with something of equal quality........unless you just have endless brilliant ideas coming out of your @$$.  In Van Halen's case ,many of their best songs from later albums can be easily traced back to demos prior to their debut too.

The model for me is the Beatles, whose later body of work is vastly superior to the earlier era.

For Van Halen, I am one of the few who actually liked the Hagar era more than the DLR era.

For Dream Theater, I think I just connected with how their music evolved over the years. I felt a bit of diconnnect during the 8V - BC&SL era, but I now appreciate it as something akin to a mid-life crisis, of struggling with the direction you want to take your life in. ADTOE and DT, for me, sounded like a mature Dream Theater who is finally secure with who they are. I am in a similar place in my life right now, so I have this connection with the last two albums.

Awake remains my favorite album, though, because it just sounds so honest.

[BlobVanDam]

If I were to rank every song from both albums, I think every single IaW track would be above every single DT12 track, and I only rank IaW 3rd or 4th. Not even in the ballpark.

[Bertielee]

Not even close for me. I&W is my 2nd favorite, DT 12 would be ranked 8th. In a nutshell, not a song on DT 12 can match any song on I&W.

B.Lee

[Elite]

This thread is very weird to read through

[wolfking]

To be fair to zecawolf , he has been here just over a week......he may not even know there is a controversial opinions thread - or that his opinion is so controversial 

But he didn't even make the thread. 

[bl5150]

To be fair to zecawolf , he has been here just over a week......he may not even know there is a controversial opinions thread - or that his opinion is so controversial 

But he didn't even make the thread. 

This thread has obviously messed me up 

[Rickharris1011]

I like the thread - I don't think it's too controversial.    When I saw the header I thought, no way...but then I thought about it a bit.  I never listen to I&W. All of my favorite songs are on the live albums, particularly UAGM, Metropolis and LTL. (I love SFNY and Score)  This might be different if I hadn't overplayed TTT and PMU so many years ago.   

DT12, on the other hand, gets a lot of listens from me.  So even though I like the UAGM, Metropolis and LtL better than any on DT12, in a weird way I agree with the OP.

Aside - both albums have terrible overcompressed/triggered snare sounds. 

[JediKnight1969]

IMO, this statement (DT12's better than I&W) belongs to "Your controversial opinions on DT" thread.

Having said this, DT12 is to this day, a major dissapointment to me.

[Stadler]

I think the controversial part is the idiotic notion that some art can be "superior" to other art (especially by the same artists, more or less).   If you like DT12 more than the rest, then own that opinion, don't apologize for it and don't caveat it.  But on the same token, don't pretend that you have any insight or any ability to say what is "best" or not.

For me, I got into the band with Images and Words back when it was first released.   I liked Maiden and Priest and Rush, but I liked Yes and Genesis and Tull, and it was a cool example of how you could like both, and incorporate both into your music.  It will always be my favorite (and is, in fact, in my Top Ten favorite albums of all time).  For me, DT12 is relatively unlistenable.  Yeah, I like "The Looking Glass" a lot but the rest is interesting, but I don't ever get the feeling "Oh!  I have to listen to DT12 today!" like I do with I&W.  That also gives me a perspective that I have listened to each new album in real time, with the waits in between, and in the order produced. 

That doesn't make "I&W" "better" or "superior" or anything like that.   It just means... I like it more.  It's not a contest, and I don't have to trash later albums, and don't have to make silly comments about how the band "evolved" (or didn't) or how they are "repetitive" now (or not).   There are trends, and that is to be expected because the band is human, humans grow and evolve, and the band itself has taken on (and left behind) members.  I don't know how one can say "better" or "superior" when 40% of the members are different, and of those that remain, they are 20 years older (with all that entails). 

There's my "controversial opinion on DT". 

[PixelDream]

https://www.allmusic.com/album/dream-theater-mw0002559805

Allmusic rates it 4/5 stars, surprisingly high I think. The reviewers calls it 'one of the more dynamic, far-reaching albums in DT's catalog'. I cannot agree more.

OP, I don't know your age, but I can definitely imagine that someone who grew up on modern DT prefers DT12 over I&W. I discovered I&W when I was 11 years old in 1997. I&W didn't sound as dated as it perhaps does now.

[hefdaddy42]

I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no.  The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.

This

[Dublagent66]

 

[zecawolf]

I think the controversial part is the idiotic notion that some art can be "superior" to other art (especially by the same artists, more or less).   If you like DT12 more than the rest, then own that opinion, don't apologize for it and don't caveat it.  But on the same token, don't pretend that you have any insight or any ability to say what is "best" or not.

For me, I got into the band with Images and Words back when it was first released.   I liked Maiden and Priest and Rush, but I liked Yes and Genesis and Tull, and it was a cool example of how you could like both, and incorporate both into your music.  It will always be my favorite (and is, in fact, in my Top Ten favorite albums of all time).  For me, DT12 is relatively unlistenable.  Yeah, I like "The Looking Glass" a lot but the rest is interesting, but I don't ever get the feeling "Oh!  I have to listen to DT12 today!" like I do with I&W.  That also gives me a perspective that I have listened to each new album in real time, with the waits in between, and in the order produced. 

That doesn't make "I&W" "better" or "superior" or anything like that.   It just means... I like it more.  It's not a contest, and I don't have to trash later albums, and don't have to make silly comments about how the band "evolved" (or didn't) or how they are "repetitive" now (or not).   There are trends, and that is to be expected because the band is human, humans grow and evolve, and the band itself has taken on (and left behind) members.  I don't know how one can say "better" or "superior" when 40% of the members are different, and of those that remain, they are 20 years older (with all that entails). 

There's my "controversial opinion on DT". 

Well, I think that's exactly our OPINIONS we're expressing. But I do think that we can, to some extent, judge and compare art.  Anything man can create can be compared and analized with a similar thing. What cannot be measured is the subjective effect that it has on each individual.

[The Stray Seed]

Answering to the OP: I'm actually very happy to know that there's some people out there who are enjoying the latest music by DT at this level! I do like DT12, really, and I consider it to be a great album and a step in the right direction in terms of songwriting. But, according to my personal taste, I&W-Awake era is just on another planet. A sort of... perpetual state of art, inspiration beyond a mind's grasp... a dazzling vision of grace.

[Dream Team]

I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no.  The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.

This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.

Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.

Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.

[zecawolf]

I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no.  The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.

This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.

Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.

Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.

I think that is (mostly) due to their release dates. If DT12 and I&W had their release dates swapped, who knows?

[Crow]

no

[jjrock88]

DT12 is fantastic and is neck and neck with Awake for my number 2 favorite from DT.  But it will never touch I&W.

[hefdaddy42]

I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no.  The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.

This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.

Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.

Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.

I think that is (mostly) due to their release dates. If DT12 and I&W had their release dates swapped, who knows?

Who knows, indeed?  To the extent that it's not a point worth bringing up.

I was around in 1992 when I&W came out and rocked my world.  I love DT12, but it isn't comparable.

[bosk1]

I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no.  The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.

This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.

Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.

Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.

Agreed.  And Images & Words is a FANTASTIC ALBUM.

...but DT12 is still a better album.

[Crow]

DT12 has awful production (especially vocals) and very uninspired songwriting, there's no real cool riffs or powerful melodies or anything that makes the songs worth listening to, and IT is a jumbled incohesive mess that goes nowhere

tbh i barely remember what any of the songs sound like, i've had that little desire to ever revisit the album, at least wdadu is interesting even when it fails (lfaga, oamot)

[MarkFitDT]

These are my top 2 DT albums but Images is probably my fav of all time.

Amazing that a band so long into their career can put out such a brilliant album and Illumination Theory is in my top 5 DT songs.

Plus (more importantly than all that) my 13 year old son has shown more interest in DT12 than any other DT album especially AFTR and IT for what thats worth!

[zecawolf]

I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no.  The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.

This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.

Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.

Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.

I think that is (mostly) due to their release dates. If DT12 and I&W had their release dates swapped, who knows?

Who knows, indeed?  To the extent that it's not a point worth bringing up.

I was around in 1992 when I&W came out and rocked my world.  I love DT12, but it isn't comparable.

I disagree. Just because it's impossible to know what would be the outcome of such swap, It's a valid argument on WHY I&W raniks higher for so many people. And I was around too in 1992, and the album did nothing for me.

[hefdaddy42]

Then you just didn't like it.  That says something about you, not the album, especially since it is easily their biggest-selling album.  So it obviously did a lot for a lot of other people.

[zecawolf]

Sure, I totally agree on this. But my original argument especulates on WHY is that. Of course, just especulation. I can imagine a handful of other arguments (including the possibility that the album is totally awesome and I am wrong) for its success.

[zecawolf]

And I like to add that I&W is my favourite album from pre Rudess era.

[hefdaddy42]

I can imagine a handful of other arguments (including the possibility that the album is totally awesome and I am wrong) for its success.

This seems the most likely answer.

[Darkstarshades]

Wow! I never expected this to get so many views, indeed it was controversial!
Anyway, I did consider posting this at the Controversial thread, but I thought it would be better if we started a full discussion since, you know, it's very likely that my post would be ignored there along with all the other posts hahaha

Anyway, I still think DT12 is overall more enjoyable even though it's longer.

[Darkstarshades]

I can imagine a handful of other arguments (including the possibility that the album is totally awesome and I am wrong) for its success.

This seems the most likely answer.

I would like to note that almost everyone here has failed to give a real argument about I&W being better than DT12. While I made this thread to appeal personal opinions, you can absolutely write down WHY you think it's the best one out of the two, yet everyone says because it's... I&W, alright, why? James Voice? I agree, James's voice was awesome, yet I think it was better at SFAM and Awake (Not fond of high voices).

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I&W is the more quintessential album, surely. It has so many classics, sold so many copies, and has so many live staples that it will always be THE Dream Theater album in a sense.

That said, I love DT12, and have listened to it more in the past two years than I have I&W. I think it's in the top tier of DT albums.

[King Postwhore]

While I like DT12,  I put my ranking on what albums I play the most.  To me, there's a reason I gravitate to those albums and I play I&W more than DT12.