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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Darkstarshades on June 14, 2015, 07:39:16 PM
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Yes, you read me, and indeed I think so.
I will list a few reasons why I think it's better, this is strictly personal and you can feel free to say whathever you want, you please and make your own comparisons.
But here we go...
DT12 has an awesome intro, I&W, doesn't.
Don't like very much Pull me Under. Yeah, the guitar riffs are cool and the prechorus is pretty nice as well, but the chorus kills it, it completely ruins the song and... Well... It just goes on and on until it finishes. The enemy inside is a much better song overall, I think it's more consistent and firm, has much better lyrics and is more emotive as well.
Another Day, along with Pull me Under, are the weakest songs on the album for me. I'm not very fond of the Looking Glass either, but man, TLG is more emotive than AD and would listen to TLG before AD anytime. AD isn't a very creative song.
I've got to recognize Take the Time is so much better than Enigma Machine, which isn't a really impressive instrumental.
Now... I'm not going to compare song by song because I don't think that's a real fair album war. Just these because they are the intros.
After listening to both, I feel like I want to continue listening to Dream Theater much more than I&W, why?
Because DT12 is way more consistent and feels like a much more focused effort.
That's it. I feel like there are much more memorable sections in DT12 than in I&W. And while I&W has Masterpieces such as Metropolis, Surrounded and Take the Time. I cannot say I really hear any other song in the album, maybe Wait for Sleep but on very rare situations.
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I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no. The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.
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Congratulations to you, but I couldn't disagree more. I love DT12 also, but it just doesn't even come close to I&W, not even remotely close.
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Time for a CAT scan.
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I totally agree.
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I totally agree.
About the CAT scan? :)
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Wow, PMU not a cool intro? The subtle whammy bar on the clean notes, the bass harmonics in the 07 version? The lead bass line, and lead into the sweet heavy riff?
I will agree that the chorus is a push between TEI and PMU IMO. But the playing otherwise of PMU is just so great, and a great moderate diving into prog sensibilities.
I&W, and PMU especially being overplayed vs. DT12 is a different discussion.
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LOL, No....I was talking about DT12 and IAW......
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..but I'll grant that IAW is the BEST album from pre-Rudess era....
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LOL, No....I was talking about DT12 and IAW......
Just kidding. I think that over time DT 12 could be my No 2 ( and I don't rate albums like Octavarium , SFAM and Train of Thought near as high as most on DTF) , so I can back up the love for DT 12 no probs. But to me I&W is as close as you get to perfection , so I can't agree with that side of things.
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..but I'll grant that IAW is the BEST album from pre-Rudess era....
That's not saying much and doesn't make your controversial decision any easier to swallow. :lol
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Agree again that it is not saying much, because I have already stated that I do not like early DT stuff.....
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Agree again that it is not saying much, because I have already stated that I do not like early DT stuff.....
I didn't know I was suppose to know that, apologies.
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I'm thinking if my phrasing seeemed a little rude, I 'm from Brazil, I think I have a reasonable grasp at english, but perhaps I say things in a strange way sometimes, anyway, I did not mean to be arrogant or nothing like that.
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I'm thinking if my phrasing seeemed a little rude, I 'm from Brazil, I think I have a reasonable grasp at english, but perhaps I say things in a strange way sometimes, anyway, I did not mean to be arrogant or nothing like that.
That's cool bro haha.
Even though I disagree with the topic, I will add that DT12 is my fav since 8VM, fabulous record.
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For me, the Dream Theater album is just second behind Awake. Awake edges Dream Theater for having more heart. The Dream Theater album, for me, is the most cerebral and purposive of the DT albums. The composition is very rational, which appeals to my sensibilities, but the rationality makes the album sound too calculating at times.
Images and Words is ok, but I really believe that DT has evolved (and improved) over time. Right now, I&W is seventh in my rankings, behind Awake, DT, SDOIT, SFAM, ADTOE, and ToT. I used to rank it higher but I rarely listen to it anymore as my tastes changed with age. I see it as very much a product of its time. Still love Metropolis Pt.1 and Surrounded, which are the songs that aged well for me.
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..but I'll grant that IAW is the BEST album from pre-Rudess era....
The pre-Rudess era is their best era. :coolio
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I cannot understand who does not agree with that!
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..but I'll grant that IAW is the BEST album from pre-Rudess era....
The pre-Rudess era is their best era. :coolio
I cannot understand who does not agree with that!
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..but I'll grant that IAW is the BEST album from pre-Rudess era....
The pre-Rudess era is their best era. :coolio
Which is why Awake is the best album. :p
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OOOPs. I read that wrong. I guess I am a little sleepy, Its midnight here. I think RUDESS ERA is the best era.
Maybe Freud would have some thing to say about my mistake.....
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I&W and Awake are their best two albums, therefore that is the best era. :biggrin:
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Well, in my opinion, Awake is the second worst....don't hate me please!
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I would never hate someone over an opinion like that, no matter how misguided it is. :biggrin:
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My story with DT is this: I am a "traditional" rocker, I like Deep Purple, Sabbath, this kind of band. When DT came to the scene, me and my friends did not like that at all. They kept releasing records and we continue not to like that. Eventually, a lot of those guys simply QUIT giving them a chance, and to this day they still say DT sucks, without even having heard some of the later work. I am SO GLAD I continued listening without prejudice, because I really like very much everything since SFAM. But I still do not like the first albums.....
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Couldn't this have just been posted in the controversial opinions on DT thread?
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yes, as a matter of fact, I did. But it seemed to fit the subject....
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yes, as a matter of fact, I did. But it seemed to fit the subject....
He means the thread subject mate, not your post.
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yes, as a matter of fact, I did. But it seemed to fit the subject....
He means the thread subject mate, not your post.
Oh, I would never realize that. To me, not controversial at all. LOL.
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https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=35056.0
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Couldn't this have just been posted in the controversial opinions on DT thread?
If it could generate many posts, why not? Aren't we saying that we wish there would be more activity in this board, so that it would go back to the old days?
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yes, as a matter of fact, I did. But it seemed to fit the subject....
He means the thread subject mate, not your post.
Oh, I would never realize that. To me, not controversial at all. LOL.
It's actually very controversial IMO.
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Couldn't this have just been posted in the controversial opinions on DT thread?
If it could generate many posts, why not? Aren't we saying that we wish there would be more activity in this board, so that it would go back to the old days?
At the same time though, the board shouldn't be clogged up with endless amounts of threads that could be discussed collectively in one thread. Threads would go missing to easy too.
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I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no. The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.
This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.
Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.
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yes, as a matter of fact, I did. But it seemed to fit the subject....
He means the thread subject mate, not your post.
Oh, I would never realize that. To me, not controversial at all. LOL.
It's actually very controversial IMO.
I know, just kidding. Over here, and I guess in the rest of the world too, it's almost unanimous among DT fans that early material is better. I fail to see why. BC&SL e SC rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I'd like to play both albums to a number of people that have never heard DT before and gather results and see what the general consensus would be.
EDIT: Actually, no that would be dumb and a waste of my time.
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From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography.
For me, it would make for a sad narrative of a band hitting a peak with its breakthrough and never matching it ever.
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I consider myself a pretty narratively-minded person as well, and I usually have a more favorable view of bands' later albums than many of their fans do.
But I can't ignore the fact that I think this album is far and away the band's best just for the sake of a narrative.
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To be fair to zecawolf , he has been here just over a week......he may not even know there is a controversial opinions thread - or that his opinion is so controversial :lol
From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography.
For me, it would make for a sad narrative of a band hitting a peak with its breakthrough and never matching it ever.
I agree but it's true in many cases , including I&W for me. In fact you could easily argue that case with many of my favourite bands , including Van Halen with their debut. I know from my very limited recording experience that making an album using all your best ideas from many years prior is different to following it up soon after with something of equal quality........unless you just have endless brilliant ideas coming out of your @$$. In Van Halen's case ,many of their best songs from later albums can be easily traced back to demos prior to their debut too.
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I agree but it's true in many cases , including I&W for me. In fact you could easily argue that case with many of my favourite bands , including Van Halen with their debut. I know from my very limited recording experience that making an album using all your best ideas from many years prior is different to following it up soon after with something of equal quality........unless you just have endless brilliant ideas coming out of your @$$. In Van Halen's case ,many of their best songs from later albums can be easily traced back to demos prior to their debut too.
The model for me is the Beatles, whose later body of work is vastly superior to the earlier era.
For Van Halen, I am one of the few who actually liked the Hagar era more than the DLR era.
For Dream Theater, I think I just connected with how their music evolved over the years. I felt a bit of diconnnect during the 8V - BC&SL era, but I now appreciate it as something akin to a mid-life crisis, of struggling with the direction you want to take your life in. ADTOE and DT, for me, sounded like a mature Dream Theater who is finally secure with who they are. I am in a similar place in my life right now, so I have this connection with the last two albums.
Awake remains my favorite album, though, because it just sounds so honest.
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If I were to rank every song from both albums, I think every single IaW track would be above every single DT12 track, and I only rank IaW 3rd or 4th. Not even in the ballpark.
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Not even close for me. I&W is my 2nd favorite, DT 12 would be ranked 8th. In a nutshell, not a song on DT 12 can match any song on I&W.
B.Lee
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This thread is very weird to read through :lol
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To be fair to zecawolf , he has been here just over a week......he may not even know there is a controversial opinions thread - or that his opinion is so controversial :lol
But he didn't even make the thread. :lol
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To be fair to zecawolf , he has been here just over a week......he may not even know there is a controversial opinions thread - or that his opinion is so controversial :lol
But he didn't even make the thread. :lol
This thread has obviously messed me up :lol
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I like the thread - I don't think it's too controversial. When I saw the header I thought, no way...but then I thought about it a bit. I never listen to I&W. All of my favorite songs are on the live albums, particularly UAGM, Metropolis and LTL. (I love SFNY and Score) This might be different if I hadn't overplayed TTT and PMU so many years ago.
DT12, on the other hand, gets a lot of listens from me. So even though I like the UAGM, Metropolis and LtL better than any on DT12, in a weird way I agree with the OP.
Aside - both albums have terrible overcompressed/triggered snare sounds.
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IMO, this statement (DT12's better than I&W) belongs to "Your controversial opinions on DT" thread.
Having said this, DT12 is to this day, a major dissapointment to me.
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I think the controversial part is the idiotic notion that some art can be "superior" to other art (especially by the same artists, more or less). If you like DT12 more than the rest, then own that opinion, don't apologize for it and don't caveat it. But on the same token, don't pretend that you have any insight or any ability to say what is "best" or not.
For me, I got into the band with Images and Words back when it was first released. I liked Maiden and Priest and Rush, but I liked Yes and Genesis and Tull, and it was a cool example of how you could like both, and incorporate both into your music. It will always be my favorite (and is, in fact, in my Top Ten favorite albums of all time). For me, DT12 is relatively unlistenable. Yeah, I like "The Looking Glass" a lot but the rest is interesting, but I don't ever get the feeling "Oh! I have to listen to DT12 today!" like I do with I&W. That also gives me a perspective that I have listened to each new album in real time, with the waits in between, and in the order produced.
That doesn't make "I&W" "better" or "superior" or anything like that. It just means... I like it more. It's not a contest, and I don't have to trash later albums, and don't have to make silly comments about how the band "evolved" (or didn't) or how they are "repetitive" now (or not). There are trends, and that is to be expected because the band is human, humans grow and evolve, and the band itself has taken on (and left behind) members. I don't know how one can say "better" or "superior" when 40% of the members are different, and of those that remain, they are 20 years older (with all that entails).
There's my "controversial opinion on DT". :)
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https://www.allmusic.com/album/dream-theater-mw0002559805
Allmusic rates it 4/5 stars, surprisingly high I think. The reviewers calls it 'one of the more dynamic, far-reaching albums in DT's catalog'. I cannot agree more.
OP, I don't know your age, but I can definitely imagine that someone who grew up on modern DT prefers DT12 over I&W. I discovered I&W when I was 11 years old in 1997. I&W didn't sound as dated as it perhaps does now.
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I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no. The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.
This
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:lol :rollin :lol :rollin :lol :rollin :lol
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I think the controversial part is the idiotic notion that some art can be "superior" to other art (especially by the same artists, more or less). If you like DT12 more than the rest, then own that opinion, don't apologize for it and don't caveat it. But on the same token, don't pretend that you have any insight or any ability to say what is "best" or not.
For me, I got into the band with Images and Words back when it was first released. I liked Maiden and Priest and Rush, but I liked Yes and Genesis and Tull, and it was a cool example of how you could like both, and incorporate both into your music. It will always be my favorite (and is, in fact, in my Top Ten favorite albums of all time). For me, DT12 is relatively unlistenable. Yeah, I like "The Looking Glass" a lot but the rest is interesting, but I don't ever get the feeling "Oh! I have to listen to DT12 today!" like I do with I&W. That also gives me a perspective that I have listened to each new album in real time, with the waits in between, and in the order produced.
That doesn't make "I&W" "better" or "superior" or anything like that. It just means... I like it more. It's not a contest, and I don't have to trash later albums, and don't have to make silly comments about how the band "evolved" (or didn't) or how they are "repetitive" now (or not). There are trends, and that is to be expected because the band is human, humans grow and evolve, and the band itself has taken on (and left behind) members. I don't know how one can say "better" or "superior" when 40% of the members are different, and of those that remain, they are 20 years older (with all that entails).
There's my "controversial opinion on DT". :)
Well, I think that's exactly our OPINIONS we're expressing. But I do think that we can, to some extent, judge and compare art. Anything man can create can be compared and analized with a similar thing. What cannot be measured is the subjective effect that it has on each individual.
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Answering to the OP: I'm actually very happy to know that there's some people out there who are enjoying the latest music by DT at this level! I do like DT12, really, and I consider it to be a great album and a step in the right direction in terms of songwriting. But, according to my personal taste, I&W-Awake era is just on another planet. A sort of... perpetual state of art, inspiration beyond a mind's grasp... a dazzling vision of grace.
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I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no. The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.
This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.
Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.
Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.
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I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no. The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.
This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.
Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.
Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.
I think that is (mostly) due to their release dates. If DT12 and I&W had their release dates swapped, who knows?
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no
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DT12 is fantastic and is neck and neck with Awake for my number 2 favorite from DT. But it will never touch I&W.
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I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no. The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.
This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.
Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.
Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.
I think that is (mostly) due to their release dates. If DT12 and I&W had their release dates swapped, who knows?
Who knows, indeed? To the extent that it's not a point worth bringing up.
I was around in 1992 when I&W came out and rocked my world. I love DT12, but it isn't comparable.
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I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no. The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.
This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.
Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.
Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.
Agreed. And Images & Words is a FANTASTIC ALBUM.
...but DT12 is still a better album.
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DT12 has awful production (especially vocals) and very uninspired songwriting, there's no real cool riffs or powerful melodies or anything that makes the songs worth listening to, and IT is a jumbled incohesive mess that goes nowhere
tbh i barely remember what any of the songs sound like, i've had that little desire to ever revisit the album, at least wdadu is interesting even when it fails (lfaga, oamot)
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These are my top 2 DT albums but Images is probably my fav of all time.
Amazing that a band so long into their career can put out such a brilliant album and Illumination Theory is in my top 5 DT songs.
Plus (more importantly than all that) my 13 year old son has shown more interest in DT12 than any other DT album especially AFTR and IT for what thats worth!
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I like Dream Theater more than most, it seems, but just, no. The best four or five songs on I&W are better than every song on DT12.
This. Dream Theater is definitely in my top 5 DT albums, but it does not come close to touching IAW.
Honestly, in my opinion, nothing does. From my perspective it's rather strange that some people say that any DT album is better than IAW. To me, IAW is on a level all of its own in this band's discography. While my ranking might change sometimes on what, say, my #3 DT album is, my #1 has never changed and probably never will.
Outside of this forum, I&W is generally considered a landmark album in ALL of prog rock/metal. DT12 has no chance of reaching such a status, and that's coming from someone who likes it quite a bit.
I think that is (mostly) due to their release dates. If DT12 and I&W had their release dates swapped, who knows?
Who knows, indeed? To the extent that it's not a point worth bringing up.
I was around in 1992 when I&W came out and rocked my world. I love DT12, but it isn't comparable.
I disagree. Just because it's impossible to know what would be the outcome of such swap, It's a valid argument on WHY I&W raniks higher for so many people. And I was around too in 1992, and the album did nothing for me.
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Then you just didn't like it. That says something about you, not the album, especially since it is easily their biggest-selling album. So it obviously did a lot for a lot of other people.
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Sure, I totally agree on this. But my original argument especulates on WHY is that. Of course, just especulation. I can imagine a handful of other arguments (including the possibility that the album is totally awesome and I am wrong) for its success.
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And I like to add that I&W is my favourite album from pre Rudess era.
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I can imagine a handful of other arguments (including the possibility that the album is totally awesome and I am wrong) for its success.
This seems the most likely answer.
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Wow! I never expected this to get so many views, indeed it was controversial!
Anyway, I did consider posting this at the Controversial thread, but I thought it would be better if we started a full discussion since, you know, it's very likely that my post would be ignored there along with all the other posts hahaha
Anyway, I still think DT12 is overall more enjoyable even though it's longer.
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I can imagine a handful of other arguments (including the possibility that the album is totally awesome and I am wrong) for its success.
This seems the most likely answer.
I would like to note that almost everyone here has failed to give a real argument about I&W being better than DT12. While I made this thread to appeal personal opinions, you can absolutely write down WHY you think it's the best one out of the two, yet everyone says because it's... I&W, alright, why? James Voice? I agree, James's voice was awesome, yet I think it was better at SFAM and Awake (Not fond of high voices).
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I&W is the more quintessential album, surely. It has so many classics, sold so many copies, and has so many live staples that it will always be THE Dream Theater album in a sense.
That said, I love DT12, and have listened to it more in the past two years than I have I&W. I think it's in the top tier of DT albums.
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While I like DT12, I put my ranking on what albums I play the most. To me, there's a reason I gravitate to those albums and I play I&W more than DT12.
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I can imagine a handful of other arguments (including the possibility that the album is totally awesome and I am wrong) for its success.
This seems the most likely answer.
I would like to note that almost everyone here has failed to give a real argument about I&W being better than DT12. While I made this thread to appeal personal opinions, you can absolutely write down WHY you think it's the best one out of the two, yet everyone says because it's... I&W, alright, why? James Voice? I agree, James's voice was awesome, yet I think it was better at SFAM and Awake (Not fond of high voices).
- Technically, James's voice is better. He has that soaring majestic quality to his voice that a lot of people really enjoy and identify him with.
- Because it's their second album, it has a youth and vitality to it that most people generally enjoy in music. A band's earlier albums are going to be generally more liked because they take more risks and haven't worn off their rough edges. Especially in the case of I&W, DT was in the process of inventing a new genre of music and establishing its conventions.
- Pull Me Under is DT's one legitimate hit single. This shouldn't matter, but it does. It makes the song feel bigger and more exciting.
- MP's drumming is very unrestrained and intuitively musical. MM's drumming on DT12 is very precise and mechanical. Some people prefer the former, some people prefer the latter. (For me, I think the drumming on I&W is better overall, but the drumming on IT is better than any song on I&W).
- I&W's mix isnt nearly as compressed, which is nicer on the ear. While the bass mix on DT12 is very good, it's better on DT12.
- Myung's bass work on I&W overall is more inventive and unusual. This matters to some people.
- Overall, the guitar solos on I&W are better. They have the jazzy elements that eventually got pushed out of JP's soloing. And while DT12 has some soaring melodies, they feel more casually effortless on I&W.
- KM's keyboards, depending on how you look at it, are more atmospheric than JR's on DT12. And his keyboard solos tend to blend melody and the technical aspects more naturally.
- The biggest factor, I think, is that even though DT12 moves between many genres and styles, the whole album is very heavy and very dark music. Even AFTR has a very slamming mix and the darker bridge section. I&W goes from heavy metal to ballad in its first two tracks.
You don't have to agree with these reasons, but I&W isn't so well liked purely for nostalgia reasons. This isn't meant to diminish DT12 either. IT is better than anything on I&W (IMO!!!!!!) and the album as a whole is in my top 5.
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I think that is (mostly) due to their release dates. If DT12 and I&W had their release dates swapped, who knows?
That could never happen. If they released DT12 as their second album, it probably would have been their last album.
I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice. The first time it made their career. The second time it saved it.
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Couldn't disagree more, but whatever floats your boat. However, the part that I am struggling to process and have difficulty making a concession with is the idea that TLG is more emotive than AD. No way, man. Even stripping away the fact that AD is a really personal song, does TLG really stir up anything emotionally? It has great lyrics for recent JP and is easy to relate to, and I don't know what kind of reaction you had to it, but "emotive" isn't really a word that comes to mind when listening to it.
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The main reason is that the songwriting on I&W is just much better, far above whatever their new material has to offer. The heavy parts are better, the softer parts are better, the melodies are better, the song structures are better, the instruments sound better, the lyrics are better, the mood and emotions conveyed by the songs are much stronger.
I would even say that the members from DT wouldn't dare comparing both albums and saying that DT12 is even close to Images & Words :lol
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I would even say that the members from DT wouldn't dare comparing both albums and saying that DT12 is even close to Images & Words :lol
I suspect that you would be mistaken.
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- MP's drumming is very unrestrained and intuitively musical. MM's drumming on DT12 is very precise and mechanical. Some people prefer the former, some people prefer the latter. (For me, I think the drumming on I&W is better overall, but the drumming on IT is better than any song on I&W).
Myung's bass work on I&W overall is more inventive and unusual. This matters to some people.
I disagree with these two statements. MM had drumming masterpieces in The Enemy Inside, The Looking Glass. Behind the Veil, Surrender to Reason and Illumination Theory. The only songs with comparable drumming in Images and Words are Metropolis Pt. 1 and Under A Glass Moon.
For the bass work, Myung is better in the Dream Theater album. Surrender to Reason, The Looking Glass and Illumination Theory are great. In Images and Words, Learning to Live is the highlight. Metropolis Part 1 has the good bass solo, but his work in the song outside the solo is not that great.
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I wonder if any of the people who like DT12 more than I&W's have been fans for more than a couple years. I can't imagine any of the old guard thinking 12 is better. My favorite song on 12 MIGHT be able to edge out my least favorite on I&W a couple of days a week. That is more a testament to how well crafted I&W is than anything.
I don't dislike 12, but I can't honestly rate it in the top half of their discography. I was pretty much done with it two weeks after it was released.
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I have been a fan since 1996 (or is it 1997?) and I like DT the album more. Again, it's more for me growing with DT and appreciating how their music matured over the years. I loved I&W but it ia not on the top of my list anymore because my musical tastes have moved on from that sound, which I think is a bit dated already. Awake remains my favorite, the honesty and emotion just gets me all the time.
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Wish I could get into DT12. The Bigger Picture and Surrender to Reason are awesome though.
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I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice. The first time it made their career. The second time it saved it.
lol
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I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice. The first time it made their career. The second time it saved it.
Am I missing a subtle ADTOE joke? Or did the band actually re-record the album at some point and I totally missed it while I was gone?
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I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice. The first time it made their career. The second time it saved it.
Am I missing a subtle ADTOE joke? Or did the band actually re-record the album at some point and I totally missed it while I was gone?
I'll give you a hint: it's not the latter.
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For the bass work, Myung is better in the Dream Theater album.
I disagree. It is certainly better on that album than on most of the previous albums, but it isn't better than I&W.
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I wonder if any of the people who like DT12 more than I&W's have been fans for more than a couple years. I can't imagine any of the old guard thinking 12 is better.
Imagine it. I have been a fan since '92.
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I&W is such a good album, they recorded and released it twice. The first time it made their career. The second time it saved it.
Am I missing a subtle ADTOE joke? Or did the band actually re-record the album at some point and I totally missed it while I was gone?
it's that old " A Dramatic Turn of Events is just Images & Words all over again " chestnut.
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i don't know. I totally fail to see the resemblance.
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Nor do I but i think someone on here mentioned it and Portnoy saw it * and commented on it like he noticed it all on his own and that gave is some traction.
* not fact but I think it was a good explanation as Portnoy didn't "notice" it until after the post was made...
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For the bass work, Myung is better in the Dream Theater album.
I disagree. It is certainly better on that album than on most of the previous albums, but it isn't better than I&W.
In I&W, I feel that Myung was still in the speed and fill-up-many-notes per line mode. In Dream Theater, he sounds really confident in letting the bass breathe and really give the songs the rhythmic foundation. His bass playing carried the rhythm in TLG, Enigma Machine, BTV, STR, AFTR and IT. He also played a lot of nice counterpoints to what the other instruments are doing. I love his "duet" with JR in the AFTR solo, and with JP in the solo in Live.Die.Kill in IT and of course in TLG. The bass work in STR is the monster in the album.
In I&W, the standout track for Myung is LtL, which is a real masterpiece. Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.
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Man, I really like Portnoy. But honestly, I will never accept any opinion of his about DT without being a little suspicious....I think that he never imagined the band making great albums without him, and in my OPINION, they totally proved him wrong. But that's another thread.
By the way, and yet ANOTHER thread, to me DT is John Petrucci.
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Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.
That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.
He is great on DT12, no doubt. But it doesn't touch I&W.
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Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.
That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.
He is great on DT12, no doubt. But it doesn't touch I&W.
But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.
If we're just talking mere chops, it would be like saying that 6:00 is the masterpiece song of Myung.
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Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.
That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.
He is great on DT12, no doubt. But it doesn't touch I&W.
But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.
If we're just talking mere chops, it would be like saying that 6:00 is the masterpiece song of Myung.
hit the nail on the head
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Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.
That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.
He is great on DT12, no doubt. But it doesn't touch I&W.
But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.
If we're just talking mere chops, it would be like saying that 6:00 is the masterpiece song of Myung.
On WDADU I definitely think he hadn't found his role, and was playing for technicality rather than musicality (which I'd say about every member on WDADU), but on IaW he really nailed that balance (which I'd say about every member on IaW). Even when he's playing fast and higher up on the neck, it's always adding to the song and complementing the rest of the band.
And there's nothing on DT12 even half as awesome as the bassline to TtT. Case closed. :biggrin:
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But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.
On the face of it, this seems incredibly pretentious. You seem to be saying that you know what the function of the bass in the songs on I&W is better than Myung does.
In fact, the bass playing on I&W is perfect for the style of songwriting that is on that album. DT12, although still within the same genre, displays a somewhat different quintet of musicians writing different songs at a different time in their lives. It is different. Some of the approaches that Myung chose on DT12 wouldn't have fit in with the compositions on I&W, which makes perfect sense.
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But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.
On the face of it, this seems incredibly pretentious. You seem to be saying that you know what the function of the bass in the songs on I&W is better than Myung does.
In fact, the bass playing on I&W is perfect for the style of songwriting that is on that album. DT12, although still within the same genre, displays a somewhat different quintet of musicians writing different songs at a different time in their lives. It is different. Some of the approaches that Myung chose on DT12 wouldn't have fit in with the compositions on I&W, which makes perfect sense.
But if you think that the playing on one album wouldn't fit on the other, and that he did exactly what was required for each one, it becomes a matter of taste and the comparison about "which is better" totally becomes senseless.
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But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.
On the face of it, this seems incredibly pretentious. You seem to be saying that you know what the function of the bass in the songs on I&W is better than Myung does.
In fact, the bass playing on I&W is perfect for the style of songwriting that is on that album. DT12, although still within the same genre, displays a somewhat different quintet of musicians writing different songs at a different time in their lives. It is different. Some of the approaches that Myung chose on DT12 wouldn't have fit in with the compositions on I&W, which makes perfect sense.
Not being pretentious at all. I'm going by how I hear Myung's approach evolved over the course of the different albums, and his approach in the Dream Theater album is in line with how his approach started to evolve starting with Falling Into Infinity. More counterpoints, more carrying the rhythms, less of the fast finger-breaking stuff he did in the earlier albums. For me, it is still a toss-up between FII and SFAM for best Myung bass work. His work in Octavarium (the song, not the album) is also up there. His work in the Dream Theater album is also near that level.
If we are just going to assume that Myung did what fits for every album, then we'll end up just basing our evaluations on how well we regard the songs themselves, not on how Myung played them.
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Not necessarily.
But there is certainly an element of that.
I think it is fair to say that on I&W, he was playing a lot of "lead bass", so to speak, and not playing with MP in a traditional rock "rhythm section" role. But that's OK, because they weren't a traditional rock band. Musicianship was an important part of their formula.
However, with the songs on DT12, he (for the most part) is playing more WITH MM than he ever did with MP. They are a lot closer to a rhythm section than on any other DT album I can remember. And that's fine; the songwriting style on that album is more concise and less flamboyant overall, with all of the musicians.
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Nor do I but i think someone on here mentioned it and Portnoy saw it * and commented on it like he noticed it all on his own and that gave is some traction.
* not fact but I think it was a good explanation as Portnoy didn't "notice" it until after the post was made...
For the record, MP did see the connections way before that post was made. I saw the AMob show on Sept 2, 2011 and spoke with him both before and after the show. One of the topics that came up with was ADToE. He had already heard a leaked copy of it (BobS, who was with me, and I, had not heard the album yet aside from OtBoA) and he was telling us how all the parts of several songs matched up with songs on IaW. He didn't comment on the connection between AD and TitL, but he did with the PMU/OtBoA, LNF/UaGM, Outcry/Metropolis and FFH-BAI/WFS-LtL. The ONLY reason why he didn't say something before Thiago did was because of the backlash he expected to face online by commenting on these "coincidences". So no, he "didn't "notice" it until after the post was made..." - he was well aware of them before.
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Also, if I'm not mistaken, he said that same thing when he finally did say something about it.
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Also, if I'm not mistaken, he said that same thing when he finally did say something about it.
Yeah, but unfortunately, many people are gonna assume that he was lying until he or someone else can prove what he said, despite the fact that he's always been truthful (perhaps too truthful in some cases, and maybe a bit biased in others) in what he's said.
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Also, if I'm not mistaken, he said that same thing when he finally did say something about it.
Yeah, but unfortunately, many people are gonna assume that he was lying until he or someone else can prove what he said, despite the fact that he's always been truthful (perhaps too truthful in some cases, and maybe a bit biased in others) in what he's said.
Scotty, have you talked to him at all about what he feels about where the band is right now? I feel like I read something recently where a reporter asked him for his opinion on current DT and he said "You don't want to know" or something. I could be remembering wrong.
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Is it okay to talk about this yet? The structures on PMU/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, and AD/TITL are almost exactly the same. And the WFS/LTL connection is used again for FFH/BAI.
This comment is not meant to be a disparagement of Dream Theater or their songwriting. On the most basic, perhaps cynical level, they did the smart thing. I like listening to Dream Theater albums so I prefer that they keep their career going. In terms of subjective opinion, it's not like any of the songs actually feel like ripoffs. I actually like TITL better than AD. OTBOA and LNF are excellent songs.
I think the problem was that all the Thiago posts were insinuating that DT were a bunch of hacks, and then MP got on that train, and the fans who agreed with it got on that train, and so rather than a discussion of the song structures it became a dividing line between whether or not you respect the band on even a basic level.
But it's like almost five years later. Is it finally cool?
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Is it okay to talk about this yet? The structures on PMU/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, and AD/TITL are almost exactly the same. And the WFS/LTL connection is used again for FFH/BAI.
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and so rather than a discussion of the song structures it became a dividing line between whether or not you respect the band on even a basic level.
I gave a measure by measure breakdown of a few songs on the John Petrucci forum. I can understand that some may never get it. Especially if they've never made a serious attempt to write some songs. This was about reusing song forms, not copying riffs note for note. A few joined the discussion, but it was mainly treated as blasphemy. And yet Muse comparisons are just dandy.
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Is it okay to talk about this yet? The structures on PMU/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, and AD/TITL are almost exactly the same. And the WFS/LTL connection is used again for FFH/BAI.
This comment is not meant to be a disparagement of Dream Theater or their songwriting. On the most basic, perhaps cynical level, they did the smart thing. I like listening to Dream Theater albums so I prefer that they keep their career going. In terms of subjective opinion, it's not like any of the songs actually feel like ripoffs. I actually like TITL better than AD. OTBOA and LNF are excellent songs.
I think the problem was that all the Thiago posts were insinuating that DT were a bunch of hacks, and then MP got on that train, and the fans who agreed with it got on that train, and so rather than a discussion of the song structures it became a dividing line between whether or not you respect the band on even a basic level.
But it's like almost five years later. Is it finally cool?
The two problems with Thiago's posts were (1) what you mentioned above, and (2) he posted it before the album was officially released. Other than the specific timing of his posts, there has never been a problem with discussing it. In fact, it has been discussed pretty in depth. Again, it was just the tone and the timing of his posts that got him in trouble.
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Also, if I'm not mistaken, he said that same thing when he finally did say something about it.
Yeah, but unfortunately, many people are gonna assume that he was lying until he or someone else can prove what he said, despite the fact that he's always been truthful (perhaps too truthful in some cases, and maybe a bit biased in others) in what he's said.
With all due respect, someone's version of the truth is not always the truth. I know he is your friend, and you feel like you have to defend him at every turn (and I do the same with friends, so I get it), but he has definitely said things over the years that have turned out to be, well, not so truthful, so this "he always tells the truth" mantra is just not believable.
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I have no doubt Portnoy recognized the reused structures after three listens at most.
As they said, Thiago posted prior to release. I was listening to the songs on YouTube prior to release myself and was waiting patiently to talk about it. If Portnoy was doing the same, then of course he wasn't going to be the first to point it out. It is best that he wasn't the first. It would have received ten fold the venom if that were the timeline.
Whether Petrucci was aware is a totally different story. People tend to repeat themselves, and when you don't paint visually or with words, it is harder to recognize when you are having a similar inspiration. Usually takes someone else to point it out to you. But that is usually confined to a section of a song as opposed to an entire song with an abstract structure to begin with.
But back to the original thread point. This must mean DT12 is a copy of Awake. And because Awake > I&W, then DT12 >I&W. Clearly, Illumination Theory is a rehash of Space Dye Vest. How can you not hear it?
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The parallels are glaring to be sure, but my theory is that DT tried to make an album "in the style of" I&W. Similar to Metallica making Death Magnetic "in the style of" their classic stuff.
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I gave a measure by measure breakdown of a few songs on the John Petrucci forum. I can understand that some may never get it. Especially if they've never made a serious attempt to write some songs. This was about reusing song forms, not copying riffs note for note. A few joined the discussion, but it was mainly treated as blasphemy. And yet Muse comparisons are just dandy.
Given the attention most DT fans give to their music, there should be no reason why anyone should not get it. I got railroaded in 2012 I think for saying LNF "tickle section" was in the same spirit to UAGM atonal/chromatic unison or whatever. It sounded completely different I was told.
I think that if anyone doesn't get it who has good knowledge of I&W, then the DT rose colored glasses are glued to the head. I haven't written a song, and I believe many non-musicians who know I&W very well can pick up on them.
Solid point about the inspiration corner rips being acceptable conversation.
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I think it is fair to say that on I&W, he was playing a lot of "lead bass", so to speak, and not playing with MP in a traditional rock "rhythm section" role. But that's OK, because they weren't a traditional rock band. Musicianship was an important part of their formula.
However, with the songs on DT12, he (for the most part) is playing more WITH MM than he ever did with MP. They are a lot closer to a rhythm section than on any other DT album I can remember. And that's fine; the songwriting style on that album is more concise and less flamboyant overall, with all of the musicians.
He played a lot of rhythm on I&W, but he just has a sharp dichotomy back then between rhythm and lead playing, where the lead playing is superb but the rhythm playing is just ok. The exceptions would be TTT and LtL. If you would listen to SFAM, for example, where songs are quite in the same area stylistically as in I&W, you could hear a much better John Myung, where his rhythm sections give the songs the heft that bass playing should do in a song while blending in flamboyance and a confident voice that does not just get lost behind the sound of the other instruments. If SFAM-era Myung did Images and Words, that would be amazing.
I see Myung's playing in the Dream Theater album as being along that vein. It plays well its role as the rhythmic backbone of the songs, but at the same time, it has a particular flair and voice that does not let itself just be drowned out by the other instruments. The bass playing in the Dream Theater album does not lack flamboyance, engaging Petrucci and Ruddess' lead parts a lot of times while also doing outstanding rhythm work.
I think I'll just start a thread on this. :lol
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But back to the original thread point. This must mean DT12 is a copy of Awake. And because Awake > I&W, then DT12 >I&W. Clearly, Illumination Theory is a rehash of Space Dye Vest. How can you not hear it?
They aren't as directly similar, but the Awake influences are clear. I think JP even said in some interview that they looked at Awake for inspiration when it came to making a DT album of more concise sounds. Like Awake, DT12 is a very dark album. And DT doing an Awake set during their last tour has to indicate at least some level of respect.
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Some good rhythm work in PMU, TTT and good soloing in Metropolis. But none in the level of the songs in the DT album where you can hear him really carrying the songs along with MM. Not much counterpointing also.
That has more to do with the songwriting and arrangement than what he is actually playing.
He is great on DT12, no doubt. But it doesn't touch I&W.
But composing and arranging your parts so that it will perform the function it needs to in a song is, for me, the real sign of playing skills and intelligence than mere chops. He definitely showed a lot of chops in I&W, but in terms of playing the bass in terms of its function in a song, he really did better in Dream Theater.
If we're just talking mere chops, it would be like saying that 6:00 is the masterpiece song of Myung.
On WDADU I definitely think he hadn't found his role, and was playing for technicality rather than musicality (which I'd say about every member on WDADU), but on IaW he really nailed that balance (which I'd say about every member on IaW). Even when he's playing fast and higher up on the neck, it's always adding to the song and complementing the rest of the band.
And there's nothing on DT12 even half as awesome as the bassline to TtT. Case closed. :biggrin:
He's got a lot of great sad, emotional basslines on WDADU. This was mentioned in the commentary for WDADRU. He wasn't just flying around the fretboard.
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Is it okay to talk about this yet? The structures on PMU/OTBOA, UAGM/LNF, and AD/TITL are almost exactly the same. And the WFS/LTL connection is used again for FFH/BAI.
This comment is not meant to be a disparagement of Dream Theater or their songwriting. On the most basic, perhaps cynical level, they did the smart thing. I like listening to Dream Theater albums so I prefer that they keep their career going. In terms of subjective opinion, it's not like any of the songs actually feel like ripoffs. I actually like TITL better than AD. OTBOA and LNF are excellent songs.
I think the problem was that all the Thiago posts were insinuating that DT were a bunch of hacks, and then MP got on that train, and the fans who agreed with it got on that train, and so rather than a discussion of the song structures it became a dividing line between whether or not you respect the band on even a basic level.
But it's like almost five years later. Is it finally cool?
I'm on the same page as you here. ADTOE is a terrific album, and I always enjoy it, but I don't feel like listening to it much for the reasons stated above. I dunno... It doesn't have its own identity or something. The similarities to I&W are enough that I'd rather just listen to I&W.
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He had already heard a leaked copy of it (BobS, who was with me, and I, had not heard the album yet aside from OtBoA) and he was telling us how all the parts of several songs matched up with songs on IaW. He didn't comment on the connection between AD and TitL, but he did with the PMU/OtBoA, LNF/UaGM, Outcry/Metropolis and FFH-BAI/WFS-LtL. The ONLY reason why he didn't say something before Thiago did was because of the backlash he expected to face online by commenting on these "coincidences".
So he waited until after someone said something so he could say he noticed the same thing, and somehow expected that only then would he not face any backlash?! :rollin
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Stop being like that.
Most of you had no idea of the similarities until you read about it.
The only part most of you felt familiar was the Lost not Forgotten guitar intro and the relation FFH/BAI.
Because that's the only thing that is really really similar in any way of both albums.
Oh sure, it has intro, voice, lenghty instrumental and then voice again to the end, must be Metropolis! Except that Endless Sacrifice and Beyond This Life also match this description. Most of these things are so detailed I doubt the vast majority of you had a slight idea.
I agree that when seen at a much more detailed point of view you can spot references here and there. But I really think that going as far as saying that one would rather listen I&W instead just because it's "so similar" to ADTOE doesn't really make that much sense.
And I still think DT12 pwns I&W.
(Which btw, some of you actually gave some nice arguments! It's awesome to see these opinions and thoughts, altho I really didn't expect it to spark SUCH controversy, I tho it was largely viewed as a good album around here)
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Oh sure, it has intro, voice, lenghty instrumental and then voice again to the end, must be Metropolis! Except that Endless Sacrifice and Beyond This Life also match this description.
If you can't hear it, that's fine. But don't assume we can't or how and when we figured it out.
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The ONLY reason why he didn't say something before Thiago did was because of the backlash he expected to face online by commenting on these "coincidences". So no, he "didn't "notice" it until after the post was made..." - he was well aware of them before.
...and he would've admitted that he had listened to a leak of the album. :P
I think the problem was that all the Thiago posts were insinuating that DT were a bunch of hacks
I don't get that impression from the original post: https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150771825130184
I have no idea why Dream Theater did this. Maybe because it was the album that “made them” in a time where it was a do or die for their careers, so it’s an inspiring model. Maybe because this represents a new beginning for them with Mike Mangini, as it was when James Labrie joined the band back then. Maybe to celebrate 20 years of the album that defined the Dream Theater sound? Maybe they just thought it would be a fun challenge to write unique songs over pre-established charts, much like a few fans did (myself included) when they held the Stream of Consciousness song-writing contest back in 2002-2003. Either way, I applaud them for having the balls to do it and for the overall quality the end result turned out to have. I know how hard it is to write a song based off of a pre-established arrangement and have it sound concise, genuine and inspired. The tendency is to have a fucked up Frankenstein instead of music, so props to DT for pulling it off.
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I'm in constant inner-conflict about which album I like more out of these two. Going song-by-song I might prefer DT12, but Images and Words always manages to put a huge smile on my face when listening through.
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And I still think DT12 pwns I&W.
(Which btw, some of you actually gave some nice arguments! It's awesome to see these opinions and thoughts, altho I really didn't expect it to spark SUCH controversy, I tho it was largely viewed as a good album around here)
It can still be viewed as a good album, yet not as good as I&W. I like DT12 seemingly more than most here, but I&W still spanks it. :hat
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Most of you had no idea of the similarities until you read about it.
Well, yes. But that is because Tiago posted it BEFORE THE ALBUM CAME OUT. Hence, most of us read it before we had a chance to hear the album.
But quite a few of the similarities are pretty up front and obvious. True that many people WAY overstate them and/or reach for similarities that just aren't there. But on a very nontechnical level, it is obvious, for example that:
-On the Backs of Angels shares many similar sounds and structural elements with Pull Me Under--so much so that I found it very distracting for the longest time, which, sadly, hampered me from appreciating what a terrific song OTBOA is in its own right for awhile. The fact that it is the opening track enhances the similarity.
-The beginning of Lost Not Forgotten, as well as some other parts of the song, sound pretty similar to Under A Glass Moon. Moreover, the similar parts appear in similar sections of the two songs.
-This one is more attenuated, but Outcry sounds similar in many respects to Metropolis and contains similar structural elements at similar points in the song.
-You already noted the similarities of FFH/BAI and WFS/LTL.
I think a lot of folks would have picked up on a lot of those just from listening to the album a few times.
And I still think DT12 pwns I&W.
(Which btw, some of you actually gave some nice arguments! It's awesome to see these opinions and thoughts, altho I really didn't expect it to spark SUCH controversy, I tho it was largely viewed as a good album around here)
I think "pwns" is too strong. But, again, I generally agree. I love I&W. But I think DT12 is the stronger, more consistent album.
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Apologies for looking too harsh, Bosk.
The whole point of the post was to say that many people over-exaggerate the similarities. Anyway, DT12 feels more like the band knew what they were going to work on, unlike I&W, where they were still pretty uncertain of how they wanted to sound like. I understand this, they were still unknown before I&W came out, and had way less experience, which isn't the case with DT12
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Not sure I am ready to go there, myself. DT12 is a great album beginning to end. I can listen to every song and enjoy it. I&W had a couple of "Stinkers" on it.. Surrounded and Another Day. I used to make cassettes of I&W to listen to in my car and would always cut those 2 songs from it.
That being said, I think the more memorable (and arguably their better) songs have come from I&W. Learning to Live, Metropolis, Take the Time, Pull Me Under, Under a Glass Moon, and even Wait for Sleep. So I still have to say I&W is the better release.
But, as always, just my opinion. I do believe that DT12 is their best effort since SDOIT with ADTOE running a close second.
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Personally I'd much rather have I&W as the "inspiration corner" for every DT album than any other band or album.
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Personally I'd much rather have I&W as the "inspiration corner" for every DT album than any other band or album.
It obviously was for ADToE! :P
But I know that BCaSL didn't have an inspiration corner, and I'd wager that the s/t album didn't either.
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I'd guess inspiration corner left with MP. They don't channel other bands as blatantly as they used to. Obvious exception being Rush but I'm sure JP knows the Rush discography just as well as his own. :lol
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Not sure I am ready to go there, myself. DT12 is a great album beginning to end. I can listen to every song and enjoy it. I&W had a couple of "Stinkers" on it.. Surrounded and Another Day. I used to make cassettes of I&W to listen to in my car and would always cut those 2 songs from it.
That being said, I think the more memorable (and arguably their better) songs have come from I&W. Learning to Live, Metropolis, Take the Time, Pull Me Under, Under a Glass Moon, and even Wait for Sleep. So I still have to say I&W is the better release.
But, as always, just my opinion. I do believe that DT12 is their best effort since SDOIT with ADTOE running a close second.
I agree with almost everything you have posted - even your "controversial" ones (ToT is one of the least favourite albums by anyone in my collection and not much changes until ADTOE)- but to me Surrounded and Another Day are just nice variations on a perfect album.
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I'd guess inspiration corner left with MP.
Well, remember that BCaSL was with MP, and that was the first album that didn't have an inspiration corner. When I interviewed him in 2009 and asked him how things went without inspiration corner, he said it was a good thing. The impression being that going forward they would continue without an inspiration corner. So I wouldn't say that it left with MP. Besides, as I said before, IaW served as an obvious inspiration corner for ADToE. :P
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they were still pretty uncertain of how they wanted to sound like
So they made DT12 sound like Metallica and Rush
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I'd guess inspiration corner left with MP.
Well, remember that BCaSL was with MP, and that was the first album that didn't have an inspiration corner. When I interviewed him in 2009 and asked him how things went without inspiration corner, he said it was a good thing. The impression being that going forward they would continue without an inspiration corner. So I wouldn't say that it left with MP. Besides, as I said before, IaW served as an obvious inspiration corner for ADToE. :P
Interesting. Do we know if Mp brought it to other bands? Flying Colors at least sounded like it had an inspiration corner of some sort.
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I'd guess inspiration corner left with MP.
Well, remember that BCaSL was with MP, and that was the first album that didn't have an inspiration corner. When I interviewed him in 2009 and asked him how things went without inspiration corner, he said it was a good thing. The impression being that going forward they would continue without an inspiration corner. So I wouldn't say that it left with MP. Besides, as I said before, IaW served as an obvious inspiration corner for ADToE. :P
Interesting. Do we know if Mp brought it to other bands? Flying Colors at least sounded like it had an inspiration corner of some sort.
That I don't know. But considering that all the guys in FC and most of the other projects he's involved with are already seasoned professionals, I doubt he would. He strikes me as the kind of person that just enjoys collaborating with others and seeing what develops from the blend of personalities. With DT, back in the days of WDaDU, the band probably wanted to try a lot of different ideas and so used various CDs as references for ideas, thus starting "inspiration corner". I'd wager it probably just became a habit to always have an inspiration corner from that time onward just to take the band in different directions.
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they were still pretty uncertain of how they wanted to sound like
So they made DT12 sound like Metallica and Rush
Plus a bunch of similarities of previously released DT material thrown in for good measure.