Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News

[erwinrafael]

Is it really that loud compared to recent stuff from other artists? When I play DT12 and Restoration or The Mountain by Haken, for example, the difference to my ears is not that much.

Just played The Enemy Inside and James LaBrie's  Pretender back to back. LaBrie's song is louder. Will test with an Annihilator song.

[Kotowboy]

Try playing The Enemy Inside and then " Calling Elvis " by Dire Straits. Make sure it's not a remastered version

[TL]

I had some music on shuffle when I was doing some work around the house the other day, and at one point The Looking Glass came on. It just sounded so much more flat than most of the other music that had been playing. For reference, the version of DT12 I have in my library is the HD Tracks version. The album version is flat, and also way too loud.

For me, it's usually not about looking at waveforms and checking out dynamic range ratings. It's about if something sounds noticeably off when I'm listening to it. With DT12, it's noticeably flat. It's a shame, because a lot of the music on there is really great, and would really shine in a more dynamic mix.

I was listening to Rush's Power Windows yesterday. There's a record where the louder you turn the volume on your stereo, the better it sounds. With DT12, I want to listen to it at a decent volume, but with the way it sounds, I usually find myself turning the volume down a bit.

It's fine if some people don't really notice or care about differences in mixes and dynamic production. The good news for those people is, they probably wouldn't mind if the mix was more dynamic, and there would be the added benefit of not having to listen to a bunch of us complain on and on about the sound quality. 

Edit: It's worth noting, there are certainly worse sounding albums out there. It's just more likely that people are going to complain about it on a record by a band like DT, where there's often a lot going on, and a lot of smaller details and nuances that get drowned out a bit when the mix/master isn't good.

[erwinrafael]

The HDTRacks DT12 is loud? It is compressed, but it is not loud. I often had to adjust the volume upwards when played in a shuffled playlist because the volume suddenly goes down. The HDTracks volume is almost one third less loud than the CD's.

Try playing The Enemy Inside and then " Calling Elvis " by Dire Straits. Make sure it's not a remastered version

Well, I did say recent recording right? Generally, most of the recent recordings are relatively louder compared to older ones.

But I have a feeling that you are messing with me, comparing a metal song to a country song. 


To also put into context, I do have a high tolerance for loudness. I can listen to a full volume James LaBrie Elements of Persuasion album, the Dream Theater album, or Tribe of Judah's Exit Elvis album using in-ears when I am commuting outdoors. In a quiet room, I can listen at 60% total volume (as I am doing now). 

[Kotowboy]

Well - On Every Street by Dire Straits is a really well produced album.

[erwinrafael]

Most albums in the 1990s are well-produced. I just think the notion that "i had to remove my earphones because it's suddenly so loud when a DT12 song comes up" is a bit overblown. If that really happens, then your playlist must be full of songs that were released more than 10 years ago, or, if more recent recordings, must be of a quieter genre (or a Steven Wilson album, which has very good dynamics).

[Kotowboy]

Most modern smartphones can adjust each track to the same volume anyway...

[KevShmev]

That's true, but most of their albums from the past 12 years still sound a bit too muddy.  For example, go to listen to anything from I&W and then immediately listen to the beginning of This Dying Soul or Breaking All Illusions; it's like someone threw a blanket over your speakers.  Any hope that DT will go back to making records that sound great is pretty much gone, for me at this point.

[me7]

Is it really that loud compared to recent stuff from other artists? When I play DT12 and Restoration or The Mountain by Haken, for example, the difference to my ears is not that much.

It's a bad comparison. Haken's material released under Inside Out is brickwalled as well.
Better compare it to a heavier song from "Hand Cannot Erase" - now that's a well produced album.

[TL]

The HDTRacks DT12 is loud? It is compressed, but it is not loud. I often had to adjust the volume upwards when played in a shuffled playlist because the volume suddenly goes down. The HDTracks volume is almost one third less loud than the CD's.

No, that's not what I was saying, though I can see how my post could be misinterpreted. To clarify, the HD Tracks version, while certainly an improvement over the album version, is still very flat.
The album version (CD, standard MP3 version) is flat and overly loud.

With the HD Tracks master, I'll turn it up because it is a bit quieter, but because of the flatness of the track, cranking the volume doesn't do it any favors, and I usually end up turning it back down a bit. While it's certainly less fatiguing than the album version, and is a bit of an improvement, it's still pretty flawed.

Basically, the level to which they reduced the base volume vs how much they improved the range is disappointingly disproportionate.

[erwinrafael]

Is it really that loud compared to recent stuff from other artists? When I play DT12 and Restoration or The Mountain by Haken, for example, the difference to my ears is not that much.

It's a bad comparison. Haken's material released under Inside Out is brickwalled as well.
Better compare it to a heavier song from "Hand Cannot Erase" - now that's a well produced album.

Yes, but Ibwas referring to the reaction that ome conaistently has to rempve earphones when a DT12 song kicks in a shuffled. Which leads me to the conclusion that the shuffled playlist may be composed mostly of songs produces more than a decade ago, non-metal songs, or a well produced recent albun like Steven Wilson's. Or maybe the poster just loves hyperbole.

[erwinrafael]

Just wanted to chime in that I forgot that there were interviews back during the Along for the Ride tour which indicates that the next album would be different because there would be more LaBrie input.

https://www.rockurlife.net/interview/english/dream-theater-19-08-13

"Well, here's the funny thing. I didn't write any lyrics on this album. I step back. Because I was finishing up with my solo album and I just felt that my head, you know; as much as I was involved with all of this Dream theater album, when it came to the lyrics, I just said to John and the guys, "you know what, I'm gonna step back. I'll get involved in the next album, but right now, I've written all these words for my solo album and I'm gonna step back" that's just where I wanted it to be...I just felt I've expressed myself enough as it is and everyone was cool, they wanted me to write like John "you got to write a couple, man." I was like "no, I think you should do it."

Am a bit not clear with Mangini. His statement could either mean he's going to develop ideas more fully for Dream Theater...or for a solo project?

https://www.technologytell.com/entertainment/32930/entertainment-tell-interview-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-makes-his-dream-a-reality/

"Whitman: Some of the other guys are involved in other projects. Jordan has his CD with Tony Levin and Marco Minnemann, Levin Minnemann Rudess. Are looking to do anything on the side, like a solo project or a grouping with some other musicians?

Mangini: I wasn't, because I felt like joining this band meant that I had musicians to work with. For example, I have a lot of song chunks, a lot of demos, a lot of work that I've done, and I thought "Wow, I would love these guys to take some of my ideas, no matter what, and just do something with it." But what I have learned is that the band really kind of does things together, and if I was to offer something, it would have to be extraordinary and be something that already fits the mold. So now, I've changed my tune and by default I would like to use these ideas at some point. But only after I do my work for the band. And once we're on the road next year, then all this work, all this preproduction work I'm doing for the show, and preparation, will be finished. And I will be able to concentrate on bringing my ideas into making them a reality. Also, because I have now remodeled the top of my home, so I have a nice-looking area to have a B-room studio and my drum room is great, and I have all the equipment that I think I could ever need, so I'm kind of ready to do this now."

[goo-goo]

I remember that JLB interview. It alwas a bittersweet read because I love JLb lyrics. But I can't complain since DT12 (and ADTOE) was a great return to better written lyrics by JP compared to BCaSL

[Mladen]

I thought ADTOE was a massive step in the right direction lyrically. DT also has some fine words, though.

[rumborak]

For example, I have a lot of song chunks, a lot of demos, a lot of work that I've done, and I thought "Wow, I would love these guys to take some of my ideas, no matter what, and just do something with it." But what I have learned is that the band really kind of does things together, and if I was to offer something, it would have to be extraordinary and be something that already fits the mold.

[Nihil-Morari]

For example, I have a lot of song chunks, a lot of demos, a lot of work that I’ve done, and I thought “Wow, I would love these guys to take some of my ideas, no matter what, and just do something with it.” But what I have learned is that the band really kind of does things together, and if I was to offer something, it would have to be extraordinary and be something that already fits the mold.

Yeah, totally. Fit the mold. You get a great, creative drummer, but the moment he starts drumming for your band he needs to fit the mold.

[Tim van Duijn]

So, about the new album. What's it gonna be? Will it be more in the line of DT12 or did they create something more experimental? Or something completely new? Something tells me this album will be magnificent.

[SuperTaco]

For example, I have a lot of song chunks, a lot of demos, a lot of work that I've done, and I thought "Wow, I would love these guys to take some of my ideas, no matter what, and just do something with it." But what I have learned is that the band really kind of does things together, and if I was to offer something, it would have to be extraordinary and be something that already fits the mold.

That is worrisome.

[rumborak]

For example, I have a lot of song chunks, a lot of demos, a lot of work that I've done, and I thought "Wow, I would love these guys to take some of my ideas, no matter what, and just do something with it." But what I have learned is that the band really kind of does things together, and if I was to offer something, it would have to be extraordinary and be something that already fits the mold.

Yeah, totally. Fit the mold. You get a great, creative drummer, but the moment he starts drumming for your band he needs to fit the mold.

Judging by JR's playing on LMR, I'm pretty sure the same story applies to him. Only that he has side/solo projects where he can use his ideas.

[emtee]

None of us here know what the truth is. Supposedly MM is a full member of the band. To me that means he has an equal say in the
creative department. Maybe they only want creative ideas from MM in the "drum" department. Like freedom to create drum parts
that fill a certain mold within a song but nothing more than that. Who knows. Only time will tell if he is totally happy with his
role in DT.

[erwinrafael]

For example, I have a lot of song chunks, a lot of demos, a lot of work that I've done, and I thought "Wow, I would love these guys to take some of my ideas, no matter what, and just do something with it." But what I have learned is that the band really kind of does things together, and if I was to offer something, it would have to be extraordinary and be something that already fits the mold.

That is worrisome.

I think you guys are reading this in a negative light. I think the key thought in MM's statement is that the DT guys wants to do things together. So a DT composition is a song that they come up with AS A GROUP together. If it is a musical idea that you came up with on your own, then it is yours. This only reinforces why the song credit for DT songs is always Music by Dream Theater. I think this is the reason whu JR and JLB always have a lot of solo material. If you came up with it on your own, then it is yours.

Maybe they do not want another Space Dye Vest situation.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

For example, I have a lot of song chunks, a lot of demos, a lot of work that I've done, and I thought "Wow, I would love these guys to take some of my ideas, no matter what, and just do something with it." But what I have learned is that the band really kind of does things together, and if I was to offer something, it would have to be extraordinary and be something that already fits the mold.

That is worrisome.

I think you guys are reading this in a negative light. I think the key thought in MM's statement is that the DT guys wants to do things together. So a DT composition is a song that they come up with AS A GROUP together. If it is a musical idea that you came up with on your own, then it is yours. This only reinforces why the song credit for DT songs is always Music by Dream Theater. I think this is the reason whu JR and JLB always have a lot of solo material. If you came up with it on your own, then it is yours.

Maybe they do not want another Space Dye Vest situation.

JP wrote songs like Wither and Beneath the Surface before the band entered to the studio. He came in, presented the songs in their demo forms for the band to learn and make arrangements if necessary. That's a 'Space Dye-Vest' situation if you ask me, which has nothing wrong with it IMO. Portnoy was the one that put the dark label on SDV by saying Kevin Moore wrote the song, and after they decided to include it in the Awake album he left the band; leaving the song unplayable.

[BlobVanDam]

I see no problem with coming up with musical ideas outside of the studio, and then developing them as a band. This is actually how many bands operate, and it works. I don't think writing everything together right there is necessarily always the best approach for every band member, and I think it's part of why the music shows less of their individual styles lately.
I want to hear all of these ideas that they might not think fits the "DT" mold, or something that differs from routine.

[erwinrafael]

Then maybe it is what MM meant that if you will offer something you came up with on your own, then it has to be extraordinary and fit the mold.

[erwinrafael]

I see no problem with coming up with musical ideas outside of the studio, and then developing them as a band. This is actually how many bands operate, and it works. I don't think writing everything together right there is necessarily always the best approach for every band member, and I think it's part of why the music shows less of their individual styles lately.
I want to hear all of these ideas that they might not think fits the "DT" mold, or something that differs from routine.

I don't think the "mold" is more important than the idea that you came up with it on your own. For example, a lot of JLB's solo stuff sounds like Dream Theater, but he came up with it outside DT, so he uses is for his solo project.

[BlobVanDam]

There are so many examples of great songs throughout history that almost didn't exist because the individual member who came up with it was reluctant to show it because it didn't fit the band's mold, but that's what made it extraordinary.

[erwinrafael]

Maybe Mangini brought his Chix N Stix demo. LOL

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know what that is but it sounds perfect for DT!

[erwinrafael]

This is the only surviving remnant of that project in the internet that I can find:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFUJSUJBJks&feature=youtu.be&t=3m14s

[TheCountOfNYC]

There are so many examples of great songs throughout history that almost didn't exist because the individual member who came up with it was reluctant to show it because it didn't fit the band's mold, but that's what made it extraordinary.

Nothing Else Matters almost wasn't a Metallica song. James wrote it as a personal song and the rest of the band somehow got a hold of it. He didn't want it to be a Metallica song because he didn't think it fit their style but the rest of the band really liked it. I think that if a member of any band comes up with a musical idea on their own, they should feel comfortable showing it to their fellow band mates. I would love to hear a song based around ideas from James or Jordan. It would certainly make the album more diverse.

[erwinrafael]

Well, the downside of strong ownership of an individual member over an idea developed on his own that is used by the band is that it could lead to messy disputes in the future. I always find it sad when I see former bandmates engaging in a legal batle over a song they have played for decades.

[Setlist Scotty]

None of us here know what the truth is. Supposedly MM is a full member of the band. To me that means he has an equal say in the
creative department. Maybe they only want creative ideas from MM in the "drum" department. Like freedom to create drum parts
that fill a certain mold within a song but nothing more than that. Who knows. Only time will tell if he is totally happy with his
role in DT.

You're right, we don't. But when MP was in the band, both he and JP directed things and as producers had the authority to veto an idea. That certainly was true especially when JR first came into the band - he had all these ideas he'd already come up with, but was vetoed numerous times. Recall even the crazy instrumental section in TDEN - JR had that idea but was almost afraid to share it with the other guys for fear of it being rejected.

With MP gone and JP being the sole producer, I'd imagine that he still is the authority to veto ideas, and with MM joining, it was probably similar to what happened when JR first joined. So I imagine that they are welcomed to introduce different ideas, but they don't have equal say in the creative department.

For example, I have a lot of song chunks, a lot of demos, a lot of work that I've done, and I thought "Wow, I would love these guys to take some of my ideas, no matter what, and just do something with it." But what I have learned is that the band really kind of does things together, and if I was to offer something, it would have to be extraordinary and be something that already fits the mold.

That is worrisome.

I think you guys are reading this in a negative light. I think the key thought in MM's statement is that the DT guys wants to do things together. So a DT composition is a song that they come up with AS A GROUP together. If it is a musical idea that you came up with on your own, then it is yours. This only reinforces why the song credit for DT songs is always Music by Dream Theater. I think this is the reason whu JR and JLB always have a lot of solo material. If you came up with it on your own, then it is yours.

Maybe they do not want another Space Dye Vest situation.

JP wrote songs like Wither and Beneath the Surface before the band entered to the studio. He came in, presented the songs in their demo forms for the band to learn and make arrangements if necessary. That's a 'Space Dye-Vest' situation if you ask me, which has nothing wrong with it IMO. Portnoy was the one that put the dark label on SDV by saying Kevin Moore wrote the song, and after they decided to include it in the Awake album he left the band; leaving the song unplayable.

When MP was in the band, I think there was more of a push to write everything as a band in the studio - that's what MP likes to do, and it's for the most part what he still does in his other projects (aside from when he's just a hired gun), altho he obviously is open to fully written songs, if they are good enough (such as Wither and Bridges Across Forever). After he left, I remember reading interviews with JP and JR where they commented about how they'd work and develop ideas over time - if I'm not mistaken, they might have had the seeds planted in the studio, but then took some time away to work them out and fully develop them. So theoretically, they should be more open to MM's ideas than they would've previously.

I think that if a member of any band comes up with a musical idea on their own, they should feel comfortable showing it to their fellow band mates. I would love to hear a song based around ideas from James or Jordan. It would certainly make the album more diverse.

I agree - while I do think DT is a fairly diverse band, there is always room for more. And now with new personnel in the line up, there can be an injection of new and different ideas than previously. That's not to say I want to see DT make a 180º turn into something they're not, but certainly moving in some different directions than previously while still maintaining their core sound is something I welcome.

[cramx3]

Who's to say these ideas aren't so off the wall that "fitting the mold" actually makes sense.  Just because someone has a musical idea and DT are diverse doesn't mean those ideas can't be too diverse for DT.  Just a thought.

[Stadler]

I used to do this thing in the classes I would teach:  I'd ask everyone to look around the room and count the number of blue shirts and write the number on a slip of paper.  And I'd collect the papers and start looking at them, and really dramatically stop and go (the clean version of) "WTF?  You are all adult professional people.  How come so many of you don't know what "blue" is?" because invariably (it never failed even once) I would get like four or five different numbers.

The point being, ALL words are subjective to a degree.  What does "the mold" mean?   DT is not a band to have a song like "Five Percent For Nothing" on it.  Or a song with banjos.  Or kazoos.   Not knowing what it is that MM is bringing in, or the context for how it is presented to the group, I think it is foolhardy and presumptuous to conclude that DT is neglecting or not taking full advantage of it's new star drummer. 

[bosk1]

Not knowing what it is that MM is bringing in, or the context for how it is presented to the group, I think it is foolhardy and presumptuous to conclude that DT is neglecting or not taking full advantage of it's new star drummer. 

Well, yes, but this is Dream Theater Forums, where some folks have virtually it their life's calling to bend over backwards to misconstrue everything the band says