Dream Theater entered the studio in February v. No News is Good News

[Kotowboy]

Thank you.

[wizard of Thought]

Panic Attack Pt.2: A Right Sence of Urgency

[Kotowboy]

Metropolis Part III : Whyiiiii'm alive again .

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Only A Matter Of Time 2: Any Minute Now

[Grizz]

Metropolis Part III : Whyiiiii'm alive again .

Dockniss fah behind me
Whyiiiii'm invincible dis pair will nevah find meehee

[JLa]

So many hilarious suggestions in here. 

How about an artwork thread? Those always crack me up.

[rumborak]

Do it!

[Dreamer81]

From Mike Mangini Fb page

Doing some preparations for getting set up in the studio next week for Dream Theater.

[Prog Snob]

That's exciting news! 

[bosk1]

From Mike Mangini Fb page

Doing some preparations for getting set up in the studio next week for Dream Theater.

Pardon me, Stewardess, I speak Mangini.  He said, "I'm trying to rent a fleet of U-Hauls to get all my drums from Boston to New York."

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Kotowboy]

Do it!

Oh god please. Those threads are always full of win.

[King Postwhore]

From Mike Mangini Fb page

Doing some preparations for getting set up in the studio next week for Dream Theater.

Pardon me, Stewardess, I speak Mangini.  He said, "I'm trying to rent a fleet of U-Hauls to get all my drums from Boston to New York."

He'll need a sleigh right now.  Trust me.

[OsMosis2259]

Great news! 

Just hoping that he'll bring a better sounding snare this time!

[BlackInk]

Just hoping that he'll bring a better sounding snare this time!

100% this.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Just hoping that he'll bring a better sounding snare this time!

100% this.

Was the awful DT12 snare a result of the drum itself or the production?

[sneakyblueberry]

I think the result of having a guitarist as a producer.

[bosk1]

I never really had much issue with the snare, so I don't really know what you guys are talking about. 

[Kotowboy]

I never really had much issue with the snare, so I don't really know what you guys are talking about. 

It worked for the most part but sounded dreadful especially on Along For The Ride. For a nice ballad like that you want something like and airy - not some big fat

huge sounding snare stomping all over the song.

[King Postwhore]

It doesn't drive me nuts like most but I like most recording of instruments to have dynamics and DT12 did not have dynamics in the instruments.

[commanderbob]

Well here's this for contrary opinion: the drum sound on DT12 was one of my favorite things about it.

[bosk1]

I never really had much issue with the snare, so I don't really know what you guys are talking about. 

It worked for the most part but sounded dreadful especially on Along For The Ride. For a nice ballad like that you want something like and airy - not some big fat

huge sounding snare stomping all over the song.

Actually, that contrast is one of the things I like about the song.  It grabbed me right away that it was so unusual and was not a typical "ballad."  I find Along For The Ride's indecision about whether it is a ballad or something else to be one of its best features.  But I guess by virtue of you pointing it out, I can understand how it might be jarring and turn some people off.

[RaiseTheKnife]

It doesn't drive me nuts like most but I like most recording of instruments to have dynamics and DT12 did not have dynamics in the instruments.

My sentiments as well.  I think Rich Chycki may have been trying to push the DT sound toward what he achieved on Impermanent Resonance and I hope DT uses a different engineer just in case.

[goo-goo]

It doesn't drive me nuts like most but I like most recording of instruments to have dynamics and DT12 did not have dynamics in the instruments.

My sentiments as well.  I think Rich Chycki may have been trying to push the DT sound toward what he achieved on Impermanent Resonance and I hope DT uses a different engineer just in case.

I think you mean Elements of Persuasion. Rich didn't engineer IR or Static Impulse

[TheCountOfNYC]

I never really had much issue with the snare, so I don't really know what you guys are talking about. 

It worked for the most part but sounded dreadful especially on Along For The Ride. For a nice ballad like that you want something like and airy - not some big fat

huge sounding snare stomping all over the song.

Actually, that contrast is one of the things I like about the song.  It grabbed me right away that it was so unusual and was not a typical "ballad."  I find Along For The Ride's indecision about whether it is a ballad or something else to be one of its best features.  But I guess by virtue of you pointing it out, I can understand how it might be jarring and turn some people off.

This. Nothing Else Matters does the same thing and it's one of the greatest rock ballads of all time.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I never really had much issue with the snare, so I don't really know what you guys are talking about. 

It worked for the most part but sounded dreadful especially on Along For The Ride. For a nice ballad like that you want something like and airy - not some big fat

huge sounding snare stomping all over the song.

Actually, that contrast is one of the things I like about the song.  It grabbed me right away that it was so unusual and was not a typical "ballad."  I find Along For The Ride's indecision about whether it is a ballad or something else to be one of its best features.  But I guess by virtue of you pointing it out, I can understand how it might be jarring and turn some people off.

This. Nothing Else Matters does the same thing and it's one of the greatest rock ballads of all time.

So do most '80s power ballads. The snare sounds on some of them are just massive, and really assist. I don't find AFTR to be a particularly good song, but that's because it seems a bit underbaked (as if they wrote the (admittedly quite good) chorus and then just rushed it into a song by pasting on a couple other relatively inoffensive sections) rather than the actual tonality of the instruments. I strongly dislike the snare in general, but I like it there more than I do on the TEI heavy riffs, where it gets dangerously close to St. Anger territory for me.

[RaiseTheKnife]

It doesn't drive me nuts like most but I like most recording of instruments to have dynamics and DT12 did not have dynamics in the instruments.

My sentiments as well.  I think Rich Chycki may have been trying to push the DT sound toward what he achieved on Impermanent Resonance and I hope DT uses a different engineer just in case.

I think you mean Elements of Persuasion. Rich didn't engineer IR or Static Impulse

Oh Snap!  I stand corrected big time.  Elements of Persuasion sounded great.

[BlackInk]

Aside from the snare not even sounding like a real snare, my biggest problem with it is that it doesn't sound like he's hitting a drum with a stick, it sounds like he's pressing a button.  It sounds like the exact same "hit" sampled over and over again. Also, the volume moderation (I don't know any proper technical terms) is really lazy. Sometimes when there are a few snare hits after each other in a fill or something, the hits all sound identical in both sound and volume.

It is a completely unfathomable mystery to me how a band with DT's resources and experience can produce something that amateur-sounding. Actually, it is even rare to come across amateurs with drum production that lazy.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Aside from the snare not even sounding like a real snare, my biggest problem with it is that it doesn't sound like he's hitting a drum with a stick, it sounds like he's pressing a button.  It sounds like the exact same "hit" sampled over and over again. Also, the volume moderation (I don't know any proper technical terms) is really lazy. Sometimes when there are a few snare hits after each other in a fill or something, the hits all sound identical in both sound and volume.

It is a completely unfathomable mystery to me how a band with DT's resources and experience can produce something that amateur-sounding. Actually, it is even rare to come across amateurs with drum production that lazy.

Of course, the same can be said of Images and Words...but they had an outside producer who had the good sense to use a sample that was sonically pleasing (though the sampling method obviously came with some drawbacks that have been much discussed and don't need to be rehashed). Here, you have similar issues with the dynamics but a tone that sounds...yeah, amateur isn't far off. Sounds kind of like some sort of sound a garage-thrash band would be getting.

Which makes it all the more (pleasantly) surprising that BTFW had easily the best snare sound of DT's career.

[BlackInk]

Just checked out 'The Shattered Fortress' from BtFW, and yeah, that snare is great. I hope they use something like that for the new album.

Although, I sincerely hope JP doesn't use that mess of a guitar tone. Those lower notes are basically indistinguishable.

[Lynxo]

Yeah, I also hope for a better drums sound this time around. I've had my opinions of Mike Portnoy but one thing I always thought he brought to the table was GREAT sounding drums, at least from Awake and forward. Always really clear, massive and you can hear every little nuance in his playing.

Not so much with Mike Mangini. A lot of the brilliant things he's doing gets lost and I can only hear them if I'm really trying to listen for it.

[erwinrafael]

Aside from the snare not even sounding like a real snare, my biggest problem with it is that it doesn't sound like he's hitting a drum with a stick, it sounds like he's pressing a button.  It sounds like the exact same "hit" sampled over and over again. Also, the volume moderation (I don't know any proper technical terms) is really lazy. Sometimes when there are a few snare hits after each other in a fill or something, the hits all sound identical in both sound and volume.

It is a completely unfathomable mystery to me how a band with DT's resources and experience can produce something that amateur-sounding. Actually, it is even rare to come across amateurs with drum production that lazy.

But what if MM is actually talented enough to hit the snare at almost the same velocity and same position in the drum for short spurts or rolls to maintain a consistent sound? I remember that he made  a big deal about it in some interviews. For example:

"My challenge was keeping the velocities extremely high – if I hit one hit light in the middle of a run, it got lost. And to me it wasn't light, because I could hear it perfectly fine. But with the recording software we use today, if it's just a couple of dBs shy, it's no good."

I think the snare could definitely improve, but not about the hits sounding even because it can be done. Music school actually emphasizes evenness of hits as part of the discipline.

[Sycsa]

Was the awful DT12 snare a result of the drum itself or the production?

It has little to do with the drum itself, with proper setup and production, even a 'cheap' snare can sound great (conversely, a hi-end, top of the line snare can be made to sound like a tin can, as it so often happens). I'd say tuning is the most crucial factor when it comes to the DT12 snare. It was tuned really low, thus it doesn't have the crispness and crack that snare drums usually do. It was also muffled a lot, so it's really dry, with a short attack, no ringing and no overtones. Overall, I don't have much of a problem with it, but it's kind of dull, in the end. A really nice example of a crisp, organic and lively snare (with some pleasant overtones and lots of dynamics) is the FII snare, it's especially conspicuous at the beginning of Trial of Tears. I'm really hoping for a FII sounding album next time around.

Also, the volume moderation (I don't know any proper technical terms)

Dynamics.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

Just checked out 'The Shattered Fortress' from BtFW, and yeah, that snare is great. I hope they use something like that for the new album.

Although, I sincerely hope JP doesn't use that mess of a guitar tone. Those lower notes are basically indistinguishable.

Yeah. Give me BTFW's drums and Train Of Thought's guitar, along with audible non-muddy bass and...well, I can't say I've ever really had issues with how Jordan's been produced.

Yeah, I also hope for a better drums sound this time around. I've had my opinions of Mike Portnoy but one thing I always thought he brought to the table was GREAT sounding drums, at least from Awake and forward. Always really clear, massive and you can hear every little nuance in his playing.

Not so much with Mike Mangini. A lot of the brilliant things he's doing gets lost and I can only hear them if I'm really trying to listen for it.

Couple things here:

Agreed, MP generally sounded good. Every now and then, he'd have something off on an album (the ACOS snare is too thin, sometimes the kicks had too many overtones), but the clarity and nuances were quite clear. One of the very few drummers who I can immediately pick out, just on cymbal sound alone. The only drawback with MP's sound was the toms, which always seemed a little...punchless? Maybe that's not the right word. They always came off a bit trebly and muffled to me compared to the kick and snare. But I'm guessing that's more a matter of taste than oversight on his part, especially given how consistent that sound was.

The second thing, of course, is that a big difference between MP and MM is that MP produced while MM didn't. Part of the reason you can hear every nuance in MP's playing is that his production was designed to bring out those nuances. With all due respect to JP and Chycki, it's hard to imagine MM's parts are given the same scrutiny on the production side. When they finally got it right on BTFW, I don't think Mangini's any less clear than Portnoy. If anything, he's clearer, I'd think, though I'd have to do a side-by-side comparison to stand behind that claim with authority.

Was the awful DT12 snare a result of the drum itself or the production?

It has little to do with the drum itself, with proper setup and production, even a 'cheap' snare can sound great (conversely, a hi-end, top of the line snare can be made to sound like a tin can, as it so often happens). I'd say tuning is the most crucial factor when it comes to the DT12 snare. It was tuned really low, thus it doesn't have the crispness and crack that snare drums usually do. It was also muffled a lot, so it's really dry, with a short attack, no ringing and no overtones. Overall, I don't have much of a problem with it, but it's kind of dull, in the end. A really nice example of a crisp, organic and lively snare (with some pleasant overtones and lots of dynamics) is the FII snare, it's especially conspicuous at the beginning of Trial of Tears. I'm really hoping for a FII sounding album next time around.

Thanks for clarifying--this was basically what I thought but I wasn't fully sure. So clearly it's more a production thing than an equipment (or even playing) thing--hence the massive sound difference between BTFW and ADTOE/LALP/DT. So overall, to place the blame on Mangini for the sound issues with the drums on the two studio albums, while not completely erroneous, seems to be a significant overreach at the least. And I do like the FII snare as well. MP also had good snare sound on Awake and from ToT through his exit. It got a bit dry in the SFAM-SDOIT era and ACOS was an odd misstep, but otherwise (I&W samples disregarded, since that's not really him), he was pretty consistent with the snare. Not my favorite snare sound by any stretch, but comfortably above average.

[erwinrafael]

I am not that fond of the Systematic Chaos drum sound. Awake and FII are tops for me. ToT is also good.