Dream Theater's Influences and Inspirations: Love 'em or Hate 'em

[King Postwhore]

The problem with that line of thought Rumbo is that you do still watch shows on other mediums.  It's not that watch shows on TV isn't good anymore, it's just that you haven't searched to know what's really good.  Though you do get to watch what you want, when you want.

[Outcrier]

Because, quite honestly, I find your near-paranoid view of rap to be a much more interesting topic.

It's the classic scenario. One never heard a great (insert genre) album/artist/song so, two things happen: He doesn't want to explore it and, therefore, thinks that all there is to the genre is shit (which, in this case, is far from the truth).

[Skeever]

DT's rap influence has always been really superficial anyway. MP liked some 80's rap and it crept into like two songs. Nowhere near as big of an influence as Rush or Yes, and let's face it, no DT without them.

[Anguyen92]

For the main topic, I really dig Rush, Iron Maiden, and most of Metallica.  That said, when I 1st started listen to the 12-step suite, I just didn't really dig that, what is it, "ass and balls?" metal parts of those songs like in the Glass Prison.  Just something that's not really to my taste and maybe those bands that influenced that sound, maybe, is not really my cup of tea.

[rumborak]

Wow, I had totally forgotten about "eat my ass and balls". That was just awful, and it dragged on for soooo long.

[Zook]

[TheGreatPretender]

DT's rap influence has always been really superficial anyway. MP liked some 80's rap and it crept into like two songs. Nowhere near as big of an influence as Rush or Yes, and let's face it, no DT without them.

Well, this. I mean, if you hate Rap so much that the intro to Take The Time, and that breakdown in This Dying Soul actually offend you, then you have some deep seeded problems beyond hatred for a music genre, as far as I'm concerned.

[RoeDent]

I just meant that I am PUKING sick and DEAD tired of having DISGUSTING rap FORCED on me everywhere I turn, with no apparent choice in the matter!

You do have a choice though. Turn it off. Walk out of the shop.

[BlobVanDam]

DT's rap influence has always been really superficial anyway. MP liked some 80's rap and it crept into like two songs. Nowhere near as big of an influence as Rush or Yes, and let's face it, no DT without them.

Well, this. I mean, if you hate Rap so much that the intro to Take The Time, and that breakdown in This Dying Soul actually offend you, then you have some deep seeded problems beyond hatred for a music genre, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not the slightest bit of a rap fan either, but I haven't minded the tiny influence that has made its way into DT's music at all. DT is not a rap group, so it's never going to resemble a rap song. In the end, it's still being run through the DT musical filter, so it just sounds like DT to me.

[aprilethereal]

DT's rap influence has always been really superficial anyway. MP liked some 80's rap and it crept into like two songs. Nowhere near as big of an influence as Rush or Yes, and let's face it, no DT without them.

Well, this. I mean, if you hate Rap so much that the intro to Take The Time, and that breakdown in This Dying Soul actually offend you, then you have some deep seeded problems beyond hatred for a music genre, as far as I'm concerned.

Wow for some reason I never considered that part of TTT to be rap-influenced, but it's actually totally obvious . And as mentioned by Blob, the "rap sections" actually sound like DT, which make them fit very well with the rest of the song/album.

[TheGreatPretender]

Wow for some reason I never considered that part of TTT to be rap-influenced, but it's actually totally obvious . And as mentioned by Blob, the "rap sections" actually sound like DT, which make them fit very well with the rest of the song/album.

Yeah, well, I never really did either, until it was MP himself who brought it up on the commentaries for Live In Tokyo. He said he was listening to a lot of rap at the time, and that section was influenced by that.

[rumborak]

It's at best "influenced", yeah. In the end it's hardly more than rhythmic singing, especially with the " it's time for a chaaeeeaaange!" at the end.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's at best "influenced", yeah. In the end it's hardly more than rhythmic singing, especially with the " it's time for a chaaeeeaaange!" at the end.

Yeah, but when you break it down, Rhythmic Singing is exactly what rap is.  But that's the problem exactly with condemning a genre. Or at least, condemning rap in particular, because there really is a fine line between what's singing and what's rapping. It doesn't have to have a turntable 2 step beat to be considered rap. Heck, look at Nu Metal.
But more to the point, if you really want to break it down, TDS and TTT aren't the only songs that invovle "rapping". That Vincent Price section of Michael Jackson's Thriller is considered a rap and by that definition, any kind of spoken word passages in DT songs can technically be considered rapping, even the Intervals section in Octavarium. I'm not saying that it was influenced by the Hip-Hop culture in any way, but it is rapping.
A much more obvious example of DT's rapping would be the second verse of Constant Motion. The back and forth between JLB and MP. Yeah, that's a rap. There are a couple of sections in ITNOG and ITPOE 2m as well as the Full Circle section of Octavarium that are borderline rapping too. Personally, I'd say any kind of a passage where the vocal parts are more focused on a steady rhythmic delivery, and less on the melodies, would be pretty much considered rapping. Even if these sections are still sung. Because as far as Rap itself is concerned, there's nothing that says rapping can't involve some focus on what notes the rapper is actually pronouncing. Meaning just because the focus is on the rhythm, doesn't mean that the lyrics can't be sung at the same time. That's just not the main focus of it.
Another example that comes to mind, for those who listened to JLB's Elements of Persuasion, is that repeating section in Oblivious. Another clear example of JLB rapping.

And then, of course, there's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BKmnlvO47E

[KevShmev]

That kind of rhythmic talking or singing has been around way longer than rap has been, so I don't think anything resembling that automatically qualifies as rap. 

[TheGreatPretender]

That kind of rhythmic talking or singing has been around way longer than rap has been, so I don't think anything resembling that automatically qualifies as rap.

Well, in that case we can just say that "Rapping" has been around since before it became a term and a music genre. There just wasn't a word for it, probably because it was used as a partial element of a bigger picture, and it wasn't until that element became the focus of a slew of new artists that they decided to give it a name. But these days, because it is a thing, when you hear someone using a specific rhythmic pattern with not much emphasis on a melody (or heck, even plain old spoken poetry over music in a song) you could say that he's "Rapping". And if you disagree, well, in that case, Rapping in itself is just a form of rhythmic singing, brought into a new context. My point is, it's not something that's exclusive to the Hip-Hop genre, and just because it's elements may not be blatantly obvious to some people, doesn't mean that they aren't there. And we can't say that Rap as a genre is or should be devoid of melody. Because there will be elements from every music genre bleeding into each other at the very least in small quantities. Just like some Hip-Hop artists rap over a heavy metal beat, and use certain melodic patterns in their verses, so too can an artist whose focus is singing, incorporate rapping in his music. Not necessarily because he likes rap, but because focusing on the rhythm instead of the melody serves the song better sometimes.

I mean, second verse of Constant Motion. Would you consider that a rap? Because I honestly can't bring myself to calling it anything else.

[KevShmev]

I'd consider it more, well, a word that rhymes with rap, than rap. 

[chaossystem]

If you listen to "Just Let Me Breathe" and "Lie" they seem to have seem to have a bit of a "rap influence" as well. Ironically, I like BOTH of those songs. Always have.

[TheGreatPretender]

 

Okay, what about the "Born into this world a broken home, Surrounded by love yet all alone," section of This Dying Soul?

If you listen to "Just Let Me Breathe" and "Lie" they seem to have seem to have a bit of a "rap influence" as well. Ironically, I like BOTH of those songs. Always have.

Totally forgot about Just Let Me Breathe, you're right.

But that's what I'm saying, your bitter disdain for Rap is a bit misguided, I think. I'm not saying you should explore the genre and listen to the better artists out there, but don't just throw the entire thing into a pile and say that it sounds... The way you said it sounded.

[chaossystem]

If you go back and re-read my introduction, you might notice that I changed a few things. So if you're going to keep harping on what I said before, that's on you. My "bitter disdain" is over the fact that I practically have to be a HERMIT to avoid having it forced on me! I've already heard more than enough rap to know that I never want to hear it again. Those songs I've already mentioned is/are the closest I'll ever come to liking rap. No closer. So please don't bother to try anymore to "sell" or "convert" me, or WHATEVER it is you're trying to do, okay? There is no such thing as "good" or "better" rap! Rap is just rap. Period. And I will NEVER consider a rapper to be an "artist!"

[TheGreatPretender]

Aww darn, and here I was about to make it my life's purpose to try and convert you.

[KevShmev]

If you go back and re-read my introduction, you might notice that I changed a few things. So if you're going to keep harping on what I said before, that's on you. My "bitter disdain" is over the fact that I practically have to be a HERMIT to avoid having it forced on me! I've already heard more than enough rap to know that I never want to hear it again. Those songs I've already mentioned is/are the closest I'll ever come to liking rap. No closer. So please don't bother to try anymore to "sell" or "convert" me, or WHATEVER it is you're trying to do, okay? There is no such thing as "good" or "better" rap! Rap is just rap. Period. And I will NEVER consider a rapper to be an "artist!"

I will ask again: how old are you?  I am genuinely curious.

Okay, what about the "Born into this world a broken home, Surrounded by love yet all alone," section of This Dying Soul?

No.  For one, that kind of rapid fire delivery of lyrics is not exclusive to rap, and for two, you have to consider what is going on musically as well, and nothing about the music there strikes me as rap. 

[TheGreatPretender]

Okay, what about the "Born into this world a broken home, Surrounded by love yet all alone," section of This Dying Soul?

No.  For one, that kind of rapid fire delivery of lyrics is not exclusive to rap, and for two, you have to consider what is going on musically as well, and nothing about the music there strikes me as rap.

Not exclusive to rap? If it was exclusive to rap, we wouldn't be hearing it on a Dream Theater song. 
I'd be hard pressed to tell you what is exclusive to rap. Like I said, music genres borrow from each other. I mean, heck, they used turn table scratches on The Glass Prison. At one point, those WERE exclusive to rap. But at some point, someone decided to borrow it for a different genre, and it made its way out of the hip-hop culture and into Metal etc.

Rap as a genre stands for "Rhythmic American Poetry", so as a genre, yes, those elements are what built it, and at the very least the first and the last are kind of a must when it comes to Rap music itself. But Rapping as an act is just a term used for a style of singing that's  focused on rhythm instead of melody. That's all it is. If you don't want to call what he's doing rapping, that's fine. But it's really nothing different from what rappers do. If I had the A Cappella version of it, I could easily take those JLB verses and put them over a rap beat, and have it sound perfectly fitting.

[KevShmev]

To clarify what I mean, I don't consider that part of the song to be rap as a whole.  Just like, if a rap artist put a guitar part with heavy distortion in one of their songs, I wouldn't call the song metal. 

[chaossystem]

I feel a little better knowing that it isn't just me who is being dragged into this asinine argument. However, I wish that you people would PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! try to remember that I started this thing to talk about D.T.'s influences and how we feel about them...let's try to focus on OUR love for DREAM THEATER, not MY hatred for rap. There's a lot more to me than just that one thing. I've started at least one other thread, and have a couple more that I hope to start today. I've posted on other people's threads, and I have tried to demonstrate that I DO have a sense of humor, which I'm starting to feel is sorely lacking in a lot of you people.
In fact, that is one of the things I hate about rap: When it first sarted out, it was pretty much a novelty that didn't take itself too seriously. You had acts like Run D.M.C, Digital Underground and the Beastie boys that actually had a senes of humor about themselves and what they were doing. I didn't like them enough to want to rush out and buy thier albums or singles, but at least I could listen to them without wanting gouge my eardrums out!

And speaking of the Beastie Boys, greatpretender, I wanted to respond to what you said about distortion turning rap into metal: I've actually had rap fans tell me that they don't consider the Beastie Boys to BE rap, and I think it's because of the heavy drum and guitar sounds in some of their "songs."

[Outcrier]

Lol, they are just casual rap fans if they think Beastie Boys isn't rap.

[Dublagent66]

...let's try to focus on OUR love for DREAM THEATER, not MY hatred for rap...

...In fact, that is one of the things I hate about rap:...

I'm confused.  You say not to focus on your hatred for rap and then you proceed to focus on your hatred for rap.  I don't even consider rap to be a DT influence.  They've thrown a little bit in here and there to mix it up just like ragtime and circus type stuff.  It's not really influencing their music per say.

[TheGreatPretender]

To clarify what I mean, I don't consider that part of the song to be rap as a whole.  Just like, if a rap artist put a guitar part with heavy distortion in one of their songs, I wouldn't call the song metal.

Oh, no, I definitely agree with you. I'm just saying that what JLB is doing in that part of the song is rapping. It's not a "rap section" of the song, but I'd say it's a rap section of the vocals.
To use your example, you're right, if a rap artist put a guitar part with heavy distortion, it wouldn't make it a Metal song. But if he took a break from rapping, and the guitar started playing something different, it would still be a guitar solo. In a rap song... Actually, I'd love to hear something like that.

[Rodni Demental]

I feel a little better knowing that it isn't just me who is being dragged into this asinine argument. However, I wish that you people would PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! try to remember that I started this thing to talk about D.T.'s influences and how we feel about them...let's try to focus on OUR love for DREAM THEATER, not MY hatred for rap.

Fair enough, but you keep bringing it up and continuing the discussion so it's obviously essentially part of the topic now.

Considering the structure of poetic word arrangements in rap, and the nature of their rhythmic application; it's possible we're underappreciating the effect this had on MP as a drummer, not just as a lyricist. Makes sense for certain types of rap to appeal to a drummer because they're more likely to be listening for the 'flow' of the rhythm and where the emphasis is made on different beats. It can't be correlated with anything specific, but might relate to I dunno, the drumming style of every single song with MP in it. 

Anyway, if it makes you feel better, raps generally not the way I have my tea either, but some people drink different types of tea or make their tea differently to me and some people don't drink it at all. There's some pretty lazy rap out there, but there's just as many 'lazy' pop punk metal (etc.) acts. And even then, it's only a point of view resulting in the listener comparing their experience to something that they prefer. Which mostly has nothing to with an objective judgement on what they're experiencing and everything about comparing it with something unrelated. And you also have to remember that if you're hearing it around you to the point where you can't escape it, then someone obviously appreciates something in it. Even if you think they need to broaden their horizons or completely don't understand why it's appealing. I don't think any of those rappers would even have an audience if it wasn't resonating with people on some level.

As for DTs more traditional influences; well I was into Pink Floyd, Muse and a tiny bit of Deep Purple before DT because I like keyboards (especially organs) in Rock music, I have appreciated some Genesis and King Crimson in the past but never really heard or knew who they were properly until the DT connection. I was also into some Iron Maiden and had a HUGE Metallica phase before discovering DT. More recently I've been digging through the Rush discog. and I have DT to thank for that. I was aware of Rush (pretty hard not to be at this point) but I knew Tom Sawyer, YYZ and Spirit of the Radio (might have heard Closer to the Heart aswell and not known who it was) so hardly appreciated them properly. But I've been really into listening through all their albums and observing the subtle changes through the eras and watching the evolution of the live shows, quite the journey.

Edit: Just a few more thoughts, I tried but I was never quite able to get into Queensryche or Fates Warning. But I can still appreciate some of it. Also, regarding something the TC said about some bands like perhaps Between the Buried and Me not being relevant, I'm fairly sure that particular band was a direct influence on some of the guitar tones JP used on the new album. As demonstrated perhaps by the kind of 'djent' tone used on The Enemy Inside which may well be the first time he has used a tone with such sharp a release, or as djenty, if you will. Periphery and Animals as Leaders were cited by John Petrucci as recent influences aswell.

[aprilethereal]

Also, regarding something the TC said about some bands like perhaps Between the Buried and Me not being relevant, I'm fairly sure that particular band was a direct influence on some of the guitar tones JP he used on the new album. As demonstrated perhaps by the kind of 'djent' tone used on The Enemy Inside. Periphery and Animals as Leaders were cited by John Petrucci as recent influences aswell.

This is probably the case, and also it's safe to call BTBAM one of the most popular and influential progressive metal bands out there right now, so saying they are not relevant enough to discuss is a little questionable.

[tiagodon]

Let's separate the wheat from the chaff... Gangsta Paradise is really good rap! The songs by Snoop Dogg are not!

[hefdaddy42]

Rap as a genre stands for "Rhythmic American Poetry"

No it doesn't. 

[King Postwhore]

Rap as a genre stands for "Rhythmic American Poetry"

No it doesn't.

I think it came from sitting around and talking --as to rap, to talk amongst others so the verb of that is rapping.  I may be wrong but that's what I heard in the 80's when it hit big.

[Plasmastrike]

If you go back and re-read my introduction, you might notice that I changed a few things. So if you're going to keep harping on what I said before, that's on you. My "bitter disdain" is over the fact that I practically have to be a HERMIT to avoid having it forced on me! I've already heard more than enough rap to know that I never want to hear it again. Those songs I've already mentioned is/are the closest I'll ever come to liking rap. No closer. So please don't bother to try anymore to "sell" or "convert" me, or WHATEVER it is you're trying to do, okay? There is no such thing as "good" or "better" rap! Rap is just rap. Period. And I will NEVER consider a rapper to be an "artist!"

wtf? Awesome posts. Some of the discussions in threads lately have been so silly.

[TheGreatPretender]

Rap as a genre stands for "Rhythmic American Poetry"

No it doesn't.

Well, it's your word against The D.O.C. so unless you're gonna elaborate and give me a more definitive answer, don't just say I'm wrong.

I think it came from sitting around and talking --as to rap, to talk amongst others so the verb of that is rapping.  I may be wrong but that's what I heard in the 80's when it hit big.

I mean, it's always possible that they came up with an acronym for it after the fact, but really, it sums up the essence of the genre pretty well, I'd say.

[SuperTaco]

Since we're talking about the rap influence in DT, for me it's just another shade in the colorful variety of influences that inspire DT.

In The Glass Prison, they make it fit so seamlessly. Those turntable scratches just add another layer of awesomeness to a heavy and kick-ass song.