How easy can DT be bypassed?

[rumborak]

One thing for me was also, when I was introduced to DT, I was a budding guitarist myself, and as they (at least used to) say "DT is music for musicians". So, I was super-excited about the blistering solos, the sweeps, the unisons etc.
The more proficient I got on the guitar, the less exciting those things became though, and over time the " omfg fast solo! " gave way to "does it add to the song?", and on that front I think DT never was particularly good.

[tiagodon]

One thing for me was also, when I was introduced to DT, I was a budding guitarist myself, and as they (at least used to) say "DT is music for musicians". So, I was super-excited about the blistering solos, the sweeps, the unisons etc.
The more proficient I got on the guitar, the less exciting those things became though, and over time the " omfg fast solo! " gave way to "does it add to the song?", and on that front I think DT never was particularly good.

So, as a musician, your motto is: sometimes less is more!

[?]

DT is a good gateway band into more complex music, namely prog in general. When you discover DT and fall head-over-heels for them, you're gonna spin the shit out of everything they put out (I know I sure did). And then you start to discover more bands within the same genre and broaden your horizons. It may not be that you don't like DT anymore, just that you're constantly finding newer stuff that grabs your interest just as well.

One explanation is that you end up burning them out and wanna just find something new, thus you embark on an adventure.

This, basically. DT was my introduction to actual prog, and discovering that style of music in turn helped me get into other genres. I still listen to DT when I'm in the right mood, but just like with most bands, it tends to happen in phases.

One thing for me was also, when I was introduced to DT, I was a budding guitarist myself, and as they (at least used to) say "DT is music for musicians". So, I was super-excited about the blistering solos, the sweeps, the unisons etc.
The more proficient I got on the guitar, the less exciting those things became though, and over time the " omfg fast solo! " gave way to "does it add to the song?", and on that front I think DT never was particularly good.

That's a pretty good point. Around the time I discovered DT I was into bands with flashy keyboard playing, being a keyboard player myself. I never became really skilled, but eventually the virtuosity aspect just became less and less important.

That´s awesome and counter-intuitive. After been introduced to DT, I went to Rush. But I feel DT so superior...

Well, Rush is classic band and a few of the prog groups known outside the progressive scene. Buy yeah Rush<DT

I started to get into Rush over a year ago, but it wasn't until recently that I became a huge fan and now I have to say that Rush > DT.

[robwebster]

It's a bit of a false question, really - kind of thing that has very little to do with DT as a band and a lot to do with you as a person.

Some people will love them wholeheartedly for their whole life, others will like them for a few days, most will probably phase back and forth but settle closer to one camp or another. If you're finding DT easy to put down, that's not them making innately putdownable music, that's you moving and changing.

[tiagodon]

It's a bit of a false question, really - kind of thing that has very little to do with DT as a band and a lot to do with you as a person.

Some people will love them wholeheartedly for their whole life, others will like them for a few days, most will probably phase back and forth but settle closer to one camp or another. If you're finding DT easy to put down, that's not them making innately putdownable music, that's you moving and changing.

Yes, very likely! Maybe this is a good sign!

[rumborak]

One thing for me was also, when I was introduced to DT, I was a budding guitarist myself, and as they (at least used to) say "DT is music for musicians". So, I was super-excited about the blistering solos, the sweeps, the unisons etc.
The more proficient I got on the guitar, the less exciting those things became though, and over time the " omfg fast solo! " gave way to "does it add to the song?", and on that front I think DT never was particularly good.

So, as a musician, your motto is: sometimes less is more!

I do now, yeah. Back in the day when I got into DT I was in the Yngwie Malmsteen camp of "How can be less more? More is more obviously, so how can less be more?".

[Sycsa]

Listening to DT, I often get the feeling that they follow the "less is more" principle every now and then. Hearing the guitar solo in These Walls for the first time was a pleasant surprise in that sense. Same with Peruvian Skies. Along for the Ride is the most recent example, where they kept things simple, catchy and to the point, and JP even refrained from taking a solo.

[gmillerdrake]

DT has been my favorite band for 22 years.  So I have no thoughts on that.

Ditto on this. Since 1992 they've remained my favorite band. I enjoy other bands but no other music has influenced me the way DT's has.

[robwebster]

Listening to DT, I often get the feeling that they follow the "less is more" principle every now and then. Hearing the guitar solo in These Walls for the first time was a pleasant surprise in that sense. Same with Peruvian Skies. Along for the Ride is the most recent example, where they kept things simple, catchy and to the point, and JP even refrained from taking a solo.

The entire album, really - it's so much tighter than anything else they've done. There's still plenty of instrumental witchcraft, but they rarely indulge; songs are generally pared down to their essential elements, and so much more effective for it.

[Sycsa]

Listening to DT, I often get the feeling that they follow the "less is more" principle every now and then. Hearing the guitar solo in These Walls for the first time was a pleasant surprise in that sense. Same with Peruvian Skies. Along for the Ride is the most recent example, where they kept things simple, catchy and to the point, and JP even refrained from taking a solo.

The entire album, really - it's so much tighter than anything else they've done. There's still plenty of instrumental witchcraft, but they rarely indulge; songs are generally pared down to their essential elements, and so much more effective for it.

I agree. Actually, I mentioned what you said in my initial comment (DT12, as a whole, encompasses the "less is more" mentality more than any album before), but then I thought of IT with the big orchestra section in the middle and Behind the Veil with the 1,5 minute sample at the beginning (which I love) and decided that's too big of a loophole, so I ditched that line. I find that it's a more sustainable argument to say that many songs and ideas on DT12 feel like they could have been extended and explored deeper. It's absolutely delightful that they didn't do that and it leads me to believe that cutting the fat was a conscious decision on their part, a concept even.   

[robwebster]

I think Illumination Theory feels earned, though, specifically because the rest of the album is so curt. It feels like a huge release - the entire album, no melody's stuck around for longer than it needs to, but the Embracing Circle is slow, and rich, and sumptuous, and it dwells, and keeps on going and going until it wrings every last strand of agony out of those violins. It's a sort of huge sigh, and justified by what came before.

Embracing Circle aside, it feels more honed than a lot of their epics. It's not nineteen minutes long because long songs are what DT do, it's nineteen minutes long because it's exploding with ideas. It's a lot more symphonic, too, the movements are quite distinct but feel like necessary parts of the same story, they wouldn't work as well apart. I think DT12, more than any of their other albums, showcases Dream Theater as songwriters.

[rumborak]

In terms of honedness, ACOS >>>>>> IT.

[ReaPsTA]

In terms of honedness, ACOS >>>>>> IT.

Don't agree.  It's not that ACOS isn't a five star song, but it's just a little looser.  The Darkest of Winters instrumental is just a bit silly for the subject matter, and to me the song doesn't do the best job building momentum for the ending.  This is one aspect of the song I think the '93 version actually does a bit better.  When the starting from the ambient, guitar solo, the whole build to the end and the end itself are much more epic, which in ACOS is a good thing.

[robwebster]

In terms of honedness, ACOS >>>>>> IT.

Arguably, song for song - although it's one > max, serious nostalgia filter! ACoS has The Darkest of Winters as ReaPsTA points out, and Illumination Theory has The Embracing Circle. I think IT has some incredibly tight bits and some deliberately not bits, whereas ACoS is more evenly spread, but I'd say Illumination Theory uses the contrast to better effect. When it indulges, it indulges harder, but it's I think it's justified by the intensity of what came before, and what follows. It's deliberate and invoked, rather than something that's crept in. On balance, though, I'd say it's close enough that it's basically down to whatever the listener prioritises.

Which is a bit of a feat, considering they spent six years with A Change of Seasons right and a few months at most with Illumination Theory. It's still a feat of songwriting - moreso, given Illumination Theory is almost certainly the flabbiest song on the album. DTXII is one lean disc. Smart and intense. Bursts with ideas.

[ReaPsTA]

I don't even consider IT indulgent.  Embracing Circle is an important emotional contrast and setup for the rest of the song, and even the solos before STAP are important because, by using a riff from PDLL, they signal that the end of the song is coming.

I don't want to suggest that ACOS runs off the rails at all, but it plays a little more loosely with its songwriting.

[AngelBack]

1975 - 2000 Rush
2000 - today DT

Yes I am that old, you bunch of whipper-snappers...

[Scorpion]

I guess I'm kind of like a lot of people here: I used to love everything that DT ever touched or even squinted sideways at, and I will always be grateful for that phase, because it's brought me to a lot of new music... I'd say easily a third of my music library were discovered due to DT and, subsequently, this forum. Nowadays, I rarely listen to DT anymore, but I always enjoy them when I do. It's just that... there's so much other stuff! DT would still rank highly on my list of favourite bands... probably - but I simply stopped playing them every waking hour.

[hefdaddy42]

DT was definitely my gateway band to whole new kinds of music.  But I never left DT behind for that music, I just added it to the music I already loved.  And as far as this particular genre of music, I find there are few bands that measure up to the quality of DT.  But that's just me.

[Super Dude]

Took me 2 years.

[DoctorAction]

(expect I love HEAVY metal - just not DT doing it).

Interesting. DT is not heavy enough or they can´t compete with the average heavy metal bands?

I just don't enjoy them trying to be VERY heavy. They naturally sound a bit heavier than Maiden to me and when they try to beef up much more than (TOT, bits of SC/BCASL) that it makes me cringe somehow. Just sounds unnatural and awkward to my ears.

I love The Glass Prison. For all it's chuggery it sounds like unforced DT. But ANTR? Or TDS? What's the one with Crooked Step in it? Bleh... 

[tiagodon]

(expect I love HEAVY metal - just not DT doing it).

Interesting. DT is not heavy enough or they can´t compete with the average heavy metal bands?

I just don't enjoy them trying to be VERY heavy. They naturally sound a bit heavier than Maiden to me and when they try to beef up much more than (TOT, bits of SC/BCASL) that it makes me cringe somehow. Just sounds unnatural and awkward to my ears.

I love The Glass Prison. For all it's chuggery it sounds like unforced DT. But ANTR? Or TDS? What's the one with Crooked Step in it? Bleh... 

Same here, pal!

[FlyingBIZKIT]

When I got into DT, which was shortly after BC&SL released, I absolutely loved them. It got to a point where they were about the only band I would listen to, and I was content with that. Well, a year passed and I started listening to new bands like Porcupine Tree, Coheed and Cambria, and Between the Buried and Me. DT was still my favorite, and I would still listen to them a lot. But, I realized, I couldn't do that forever. Nowadays, I don't listen to them a whole lot, but that doesn't change how I feel about them. I still love them, and they REALLY opened my eyes to new music. Today, I listened to Scarred. It was great. I don't want to burn out on any band, which is possible. DT is always going to be one of my favorites, but they can't take all the spotlight.

[The Curious Orange]

Most music I've listened to, I've tended to love for a few years or so, and then kinda moved on. I still love stuff like Floyd, Zeppelin and Sabbath, etc,  but it's been years since I actually listened to any of those albums.

I was thinking about the music I was listening to back in 1992, when I first heard DT. At the time I was really in to Guns n Roses, Metallica, Queensryche, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Janes Addiction, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, REM, Throwing Muses, the Pixies - none of which I actually listen to that much these days.

So I don't think it's unusual to stop listening to music, your tastes change as you get older. I find it unusual that I'm still listening to DT some 22 years later. There have been times when I haven't listened to them that much, but I've always come back to them sooner or later. They've provided me with something fresh and different with every album, and kept my interest alive.

[Dublagent66]

DT used to set the standard (at least on what progressive metal was in the 90's) on every album up until and including SDOIT.  Since that time, not so much.  Rush has been and always will be my favorite band of all time.  I thought DT was my 2nd favorite but not so sure about that anymore.  Haken has raised the bar on what progressive metal is today.  DT seems to be settling into a more commercialized rhythm these days.  It would be nice if they could get back to what they used to be.

[rumborak]

Haken has raised the bar on what progressive metal is today.

Come one. I mean, come ooon.

[Dublagent66]

Come on yourself Rumby.

[tiagodon]

Haken is great, but their proposal is a very different one. They are not heavy, their musical phrases are simple, they are very easy-listening... Maybe prog for beginners. Hard to compare with DT. Well, I can put his way: Haken is kindergarten. DT is high school.

[haceeb]

This is an interesting issue to me. Let me explain.

I know maybe 5 or 6 guys that love DT. No more.
They all have gone through a very similar experience in the past years. Once you get to know DT, and if the time is right and the spirit is right, you fall in love. It´s a major crush. And you can´t stop listening to it. They are the best. Everything else begins to sound uninsteresting.

Many months go by... one or two years go by... and then a new band pop up or you go back to the oldies you haven´t touched in a while... Suddenly you don´t listen to DT anymore.

Once I heard that DT is a very easy band to let go. Because of the complexity of their sound and the picture of nice boys they put up – no rebelliousness appeal, no stage attitude etc. – they are very easily bypassed with time.

Those 5 or 6 guys still love DT. But DT is not the main course on the table anymore. The band didn´t last more than 2 years as number one. One of them had Guns N Roses for 10 years. The other had Aerosmith for 12 years.... Metallica for 6 years... Pain of Salvation for 8 years... DT couldn´t hold 2...

What are your thoughts on that?

Sorry to say but your guys were dumb.

[Dublagent66]

Haken is great, but their proposal is a very different one. They are not heavy, their musical phrases are simple, they are very easy-listening... Maybe prog for beginners. Hard to compare with DT. Well, I can put his way: Haken is kindergarten. DT is high school.

  I'm wondering just how much of Haken you've actually heard.  They are not heavy?  Music arrangements are simple?  Very easing listening?  All of that is false in the context you stated as absolute.  They have a mixture of heavy and easy incorporating both the simple and complex, with a much better flow in and out of each.  Not kindergarten by any stretch and certainly not prog for beginners.  That's just outright laughable.

[Sycsa]

Agreed, yet from where I'm standing, saying that "Haken has raised the bar on what progressive metal is today." is just as invalid as tiagodon's statement.

[Tick]

I introduced myself to DT out of curiousity in 2005, and I have been a diehard ever since!

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

Haken is great, but their proposal is a very different one. They are not heavy, their musical phrases are simple, they are very easy-listening... Maybe prog for beginners. Hard to compare with DT. Well, I can put his way: Haken is kindergarten. DT is high school.

Their musical phrases are simple? 

I agree that they aren't "heavy" but they do incorporate many elements of metal into their music.

Prog for beginners? Haken is much more difficult to digest than DT for me, and their vocalist even moreso than James, which is quite a statement. Haken is sort of like Mr. Bungle of prog (not the best analogy, but you catch my drift)

If DT is Harvord, Haken is Cornell.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

DT is prog for beginners. How many people have you heard of who got into DT through Haken? Probably zero, whereas virtually all Haken fans were probably also DT fans first.

Doesn't make one better than the other, just saying that calling Haken "prog for beginners" is a bit fallacious.

[Dublagent66]

Agreed, yet from where I'm standing, saying that "Haken has raised the bar on what progressive metal is today." is just as invalid as tiagodon's statement.

Well, not really.  What I said comes more from an opinion standpoint.  I never claimed what I said to be fact by stating absolutes.  Although, I probably should have said "progressive rock" instead of "progressive metal".  Still, it is my belief that Haken is producing some of the most solid musical arrangements in the business right now, regardless of what category they fall into.

[King Postwhore]

Come on guys!  Haken writes simple phrases and Cosmo never uses his guitar as a phallic symbol.