How easy can DT be bypassed?

[jjrock88]

DT has been in my top ten for many years and they will always remain there.

[Sycsa]

Agreed, yet from where I'm standing, saying that "Haken has raised the bar on what progressive metal is today." is just as invalid as tiagodon's statement.

Well, not really.  What I said comes more from an opinion standpoint.  I never claimed what I said to be fact by stating absolutes.  Although, I probably should have said "progressive rock" instead of "progressive metal".  Still, it is my belief that Haken is producing some of the most solid musical arrangements in the business right now, regardless of what category they fall into.

I just stated my opinion as well. While your statement is far more acceptable and sustainable by arguments, I still disagree with it, just as I disagree with the other one. I'm not a Sith to deal in absolutes. I listened to quite a lot of Haken, but never had the feeling that "wow, these guys are raising the bar musically", like I had with some fusion groups (Planet X back in the day, Niacin, and more recently, Virgil Donati's new solo album). They had some moments I really liked and found interesting, like the Nintendo part in Insomnia or Cockroach King, in its Gentle Giant-esque glory (a band which raised the prog rock bar higher than everyone else back in the '70s), but I could never quite grasp the huge appreciation they get from some people. What is your favorite Haken song, btw?

[tiagodon]

Yeah, yeah, Virgil Donati's In This Life. That's an over-the-top piece!

Btw, I was a little bit unfair towards Haken. Sorry about that!

[rumborak]

I agree with Sysca's assessment of Haken. It's all well-executed and indeed has some quite good moments, but it's hardly breaking any new ground, which IMHO is a key ingredient for a prog band.

[hefdaddy42]

Haken is great, but their proposal is a very different one. They are not heavy, their musical phrases are simple, they are very easy-listening... Maybe prog for beginners. Hard to compare with DT. Well, I can put his way: Haken is kindergarten. DT is high school.

  I'm wondering just how much of Haken you've actually heard. 

Gotta admit, I wondered the same thing.

[tiagodon]

Haken is great, but their proposal is a very different one. They are not heavy, their musical phrases are simple, they are very easy-listening... Maybe prog for beginners. Hard to compare with DT. Well, I can put his way: Haken is kindergarten. DT is high school.

  I'm wondering just how much of Haken you've actually heard. 

Gotta admit, I wondered the same thing.

Yes, their 3 albums - Aquarius, Visions and The Mountain.

Let me make myself a little bit clearer: in average, a Haken song bears some complexity, because it changes tempo, has many chords, heavier and faster parts, more melodic and slower parts and so on... But the musical phrases are simple. The guitar lines, the keyboard lines, they all fit well in the overall picture but they have no technnical complexity.

[King Postwhore]

Why does it have to be technical to the 100th dergree to be good?

JP's best line ever it the one lasting note at the end of the "Razor's Edge".  That single, emotion filled note is his better than any run or scale he has ever played.

[Scorpion]

While I agree with your basic premise king, Razor's Edge bores me to tears, so I wouldn't pick that as an example.

[King Postwhore]

While I agree with your basic premise king, Razor's Edge bores me to tears, so I wouldn't pick that as an example.

You are in the minority my friend.

[BlobVanDam]

While I agree with your basic premise king, Razor's Edge bores me to tears, so I wouldn't pick that as an example.

You are in the minority my friend.

A minority of about one.


Been there before.

[Scorpion]

Eh, I think I've had this discussion with Blob once or ten times before, but I don't mind being in the minority...


... because I am obviously correct. 

[?]

I think the solo is alright, but Razor's Edge on the whole is a snoozefest and a pretty clichéd ending for an epic.

Anyway, LITS is a great example of JP's tasteful playing

[King Postwhore]

So because it's clichéd, it's bad?!

sorry but that one note, which has been done on many songs is pure emotion and it so much better than a run that has a million note, which BTW is  clichéd as well.

[Scorpion]

I don't dislike it because it's clichéd, I dislike it because I find it boring.

[tiagodon]

Why does it have to be technical to the 100th dergree to be good?

No, it doesn't. I was just justifying why I said earlier that Haken was kindergaten and DT was high school.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Why does it have to be technical to the 100th dergree to be good?

No, it doesn't. I was just justifying why I said earlier that Haken was kindergaten and DT was high school.

I guess that argument can be made (in terms of technical ability), though I'm not sure what it's setting out to prove, or what merit it has, if any.

[tiagodon]

No merit at all. Life's a bitch!

[Dublagent66]

Haken is great, but their proposal is a very different one. They are not heavy, their musical phrases are simple, they are very easy-listening... Maybe prog for beginners. Hard to compare with DT. Well, I can put his way: Haken is kindergarten. DT is high school.

  I'm wondering just how much of Haken you've actually heard. 

Gotta admit, I wondered the same thing.

Yes, their 3 albums - Aquarius, Visions and The Mountain.

Let me make myself a little bit clearer: in average, a Haken song bears some complexity, because it changes tempo, has many chords, heavier and faster parts, more melodic and slower parts and so on... But the musical phrases are simple. The guitar lines, the keyboard lines, they all fit well in the overall picture but they have no technnical complexity.

Not everything hinges on complexity or technicality alone.  Musical phrasing can be simple with a complex arrangement.  Anybody can throw in complex technicality, but that doesn't always mean it's good for the song.  Haken blends a lot of crucial elements both simple and complex.  Overall songwriting is what I'm talking about.  Simple or not, Haken is doing it as good as anybody these days if not better.

Why does it have to be technical to the 100th dergree to be good?

JP's best line ever it the one lasting note at the end of the "Razor's Edge".  That single, emotion filled note is his better than any run or scale he has ever played.

Agreed.  Although, I like a lot of JP's faster and complex shredding, his slower more emotional type stuff is even better and I think RE is one of the best endings to an awesome epic that I've ever heard.

[bosk1]

DT was definitely my gateway band to whole new kinds of music.  But I never left DT behind for that music, I just added it to the music I already loved.  And as far as this particular genre of music, I find there are few bands that measure up to the quality of DT.  But that's just me.

This sums up my stance perfectly.

Haken is great, but their proposal is a very different one. They are not heavy, their musical phrases are simple, they are very easy-listening... Maybe prog for beginners. Hard to compare with DT. Well, I can put his way: Haken is kindergarten. DT is high school.

  I'm wondering just how much of Haken you've actually heard. 

Gotta admit, I wondered the same thing.

Yes, their 3 albums - Aquarius, Visions and The Mountain.

Let me make myself a little bit clearer: in average, a Haken song bears some complexity, because it changes tempo, has many chords, heavier and faster parts, more melodic and slower parts and so on... But the musical phrases are simple. The guitar lines, the keyboard lines, they all fit well in the overall picture but they have no technnical complexity.

I can't stand Haken, and I still think you're dead wrong.