New Live Release: BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL discussion thread

[a51502112]

Again, JP with the lip synching. 

He even makes the "screaming face" as if he's singing the high part.

Yeah, my guess is that he's making that face because he's actually singing the notes.  You might want to check your facts before you make silly accusations.

Relax!

On LALP, are you saying JP is ACTUALLY singing the screams on BMUBMD?
'Cause he does it there too.

[mikeyd23]

If you think about it, commentary with Mike would be awesome, he is very enthusiastic and funny, so it would be very interesting.

Agreed.  Also the fact that he would be a new voice in the commentary that hasn't been heard before would be cool.  I'm sure he could provide interesting details about how he learned particular songs or tough sections, the lighting and video cues, etc...

[aprilethereal]

It's so annoying that every time DT releases any promo video for anything, it's not available in my country

[425]

Whether or not JP is singing, I think everyone can agree that except for the odd section here and there (including one on The Looking Glass), he's nearly inaudible. Personally, I wish we could hear his voice always. Yeah, I get that he doesn't necessarily have the best voice and probably messes up much more often than James does, but in my opinion it sounds better more often than not to have a second voice audible in the mix. On record it's fine if they want to just have James sing more than one part, but on live albums I'd like to be able to John singing whatever parts he does actually sing. And if he messes up, they can either have him overdub it later (which I would significantly prefer to just editing or mixing his voice out) or leave the mistake intact to preserve the uncorrected nature of the performance on the release.

Aside from that, this new release seems cool. I think the name is interesting; far better than the names of any of their past live releases. I am disappointed that I can't get a DVD/CD set—I haven't any use for a BluRay but I would like to have all the audio and visual discs. It may not matter that much, though, as this one probably won't be a priority for me. I might get the DVD for Christmas or something, though.

[bl5150]

I've never really got into the whole HD Tracks thing , so forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree , but is it possible the CD files might be made available in high res digital format for those who bought the DVDs and want the CD??  Just a thought to check out later.

[SeRoX]

It's so annoying that every time DT releases any promo video for anything, it's not available in my country

Zenmate is your friend. Very useful for that kind of things.

[Nick]

I think some are still under the foolish impression that just because we can't hear him singing that that he means he isn't singing, rather than the obvious, which is that he singing, but very low in the mix at times or singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal that is higher in the mix.

Honestly, I fault DT for this, same as I fault Rush at times with Lifeson. We know they are singing because *at times* you can hear them, however if you're going to use a backing track you need to adjust levels so that the people singing can be heard at least on level with the backing tracks, otherwise it ends up looking silly.

[425]

I've never really got into the whole HD Tracks thing , so forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree , but is it possible the CD files might be made available in high res digital format for those who bought the DVDs and want the CD??  Just a thought to check out later.

Well, Luna Park was never released on HDTracks, but I assume it's possible that such a thing could happen. I'm one of those people who wants to have actual CDs, though, so I'd really prefer being able to buy that without buying also the BluRay.

See, I think the best way to do live releases is to set a price for the CD set, a price for the DVD set and a price for the BluRay set. And then they could sell a set of, for example, BluRay+CD, at a price that's like $5-$10 lower than the price of the BluRay plus the price of the CD. And same thing for DVD+CD and perhaps also for Blu-Ray+DVD+CD. This whole "hope they have a set in the specific configuration that you want" thing is kind of silly. They may think that they're increasing profits by luring people who want CDs to a more expensive package, and that might be so for some people, but I'm more likely to just skip the CD than buy a BluRay that I don't want just to get it.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I never thought I'd be "that" guy, but I've gotten a little tired of every new release by every band getting waves of commentary regarding the YouTube teaser sounding bad.

Personally, I'm pumped for this. I loved the setlist this past tour.

[Mladen]

If JP is singing, they should either ditch the backing tracks or make sure he's audible. It looks ridiculous this way, no wonder people think he's lip syncing.

[bosk1]

I think some are still under the foolish impression that just because we can't hear him singing that that he means he isn't singing, rather than the obvious, which is that he singing, but very low in the mix at times or singing along to a pre-recorded backing vocal that is higher in the mix.

Honestly, I fault DT for this, same as I fault Rush at times with Lifeson. We know they are singing because *at times* you can hear them, however if you're going to use a backing track you need to adjust levels so that the people singing can be heard at least on level with the backing tracks, otherwise it ends up looking silly.

I don't know that there is anything to "blame" them for.  The thing is, John doesn't want to be higher up in the mix.  He wants to do a harmony that is much lower in the mix.  I realize it may look odd at times when we cannot pick his voice out, but we can see him totally going for something that looks like it is challenging for him.  But he just wants his voice to blend in lightly in the background.  That's what he explained to me when I asked him about it.  And I get it. 

Here's an example that kind of illustrates what they are doing:  I will submit to you that most of us do not hear a lot of what is going on in backing tracks on albums.  An example that helped me see this point rather vividly was when I entered a contest years back where Queensryche would send you an instrumental backing track for some of their songs, and you could record your own lead part and send it back, and if it was good enough, you got picked as a finalist to compete to sing onstage with the band.  I got mine, and when listening to the instumental only demos, I was shocked at the fact that with the lead vocals missing, I could hear backing vocals very low in the mix that I had never even realized were there.  I could not consciously hear them because of the much more clear and dominant (and louder) lead.  But they absolutely enhanced the lead vocal once the whole thing was mixed together. 

The last time I saw DT, I was there when they were sound checking On The Backs Of Angels and part of The Enemy Inside.  For whatever reason, James did not come out for soundcheck, so it was only the band.  Without James singing lead, and with a much quieter auditorium (there were only three of us there, not counting Frank Aresti and his wife, who were watching from stage left), and standing just a few feet from John, I could hear exactly what he was singing and could hear how low he was in the mix, and how his harmonies would not necessarily be very audible once we had James loudly singing lead and an auditorium full of screaming fans.  And I could also hear how his harmonies, despite being very low in the mix, would enhance the lead vocal even if you could not pick them out, much like the soft harmonies in that Queensryche instrumental track that I mentioned above.

So, we might not necessarily agree with the decision as fans, but it is a conscious decision by the band, and I get the rationale.

Again, JP with the lip synching. 

He even makes the "screaming face" as if he's singing the high part.

Yeah, my guess is that he's making that face because he's actually singing the notes.  You might want to check your facts before you make silly accusations.

Relax!

On LALP, are you saying JP is ACTUALLY singing the screams on BMUBMD?
'Cause he does it there too.

I am quite relaxed, but I find it comical and misinformed to make such a dumb statement. 

And as to your question, I think it is highly unlikely that John is doubling the main scream that we are hearing in James' voice.  That is James on the backing track.  But based on what I know from what I have seen and heard myself, I can say two things with different degrees of certainty:  (1) I am fairly certain (I would say in the 80-90% range) that he is actually singing something and not lip synching.  (2) My educated guess is that he is not mirroring James' scream that you hear in the backing track, but is "screaming" a harmony with it that is much lower in the mix.  (he does a similar thing on the parts in "The Mirror" where the lead "spoken word" part is definitely the backing track, and JP is doing a low harmony.  It is much harder to hear because he is so low in the mix and is also basically "speaking" the note at low volume on top of that, but he is definitely not faking it)

[BlobVanDam]

If JP is singing, they should either ditch the backing tracks or make sure he's audible. It looks ridiculous this way, no wonder people think he's lip syncing.

This. It looks silly on LALP, and it looks silly here. If he's singing, why wouldn't they either use those vocals in the mix or dub them if they weren't up to scratch? The more live it is, the better. With the canned background vocals, it's hard to tell the ADTOE stuff apart from the studio versions on LALP.

[PixelDream]

I personally found nothing exciting to hear here.. look, the band members obviously did a good job playing this song. But, the song sounds almost exactly like the studio version, and the drums sound dead.. again. I was hoping they would have fixed that, but no. The argument that it's just 'youtube quality'  is not valid at all; the sounds and the mix of it are as they are. Of course the finished product will sound better (higher bitrate and all), but it's not as if the drums will suddenly sound alive. And was that snare triggered? Not a good decision at all IMO.

Guess I'm going to have to accept that I like the MP era DVD's very much, and the recent DVD's not so much. I was just hoping it'd be a completely different animal, but DT (or should I say Richard Chycki) again opts for a live registration that is mixed and mastered as if it were a modern studio production. I miss the more open and powerful sound of LSFNY and Score.

Sorry for all the negativity, I do still love the band and the playing is all top notch, that's why I'm so disappointed with how their recent material is produced.

[cramx3]

I dont know, the drums sound so much better to my ears and if you dont like it, thats fine as its your opinion, but i also disagree that it is significantly different than LALP based on this one video.  The camera angles are much better IMO which I really enjoy.

[BlobVanDam]

The weak sounding drums were one thing that bothered me on LALP, but these drums definitely sound more powerful and pleasant to me. They sound like what the DT12 drums were meant to sound like.

[?]

On LALP, are you saying JP is ACTUALLY singing the screams on BMUBMD?
'Cause he does it there too.

In addition to the screaming and the lead melody there's a lower harmony in that section, which is probably what JP is singing.

Anyway, hopefully his voice will be mixed higher this time, because his backing vocals were perfectly audible and sounded good when I saw them live.

[TheAtliator]

In BMUBMD, that part with the scream is a three part harmony, not two part. John (audible or not, and I think toward the beginning of the tour he was more audible) is singing the lowest harmony, James sings the middle, and the track has the high screams. John's part is the one that stays on the same note for all 6 words.

Edit- ninjad and just barely!

[hefdaddy42]

the drums sound dead.. again.

You must not have listened to the same thing I did.

[RodrigoAltaf]

 HAs this NOT been posted yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DI7E_QvetVM

[cramx3]

HAs this NOT been posted yet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DI7E_QvetVM

What do you think we are all talking about? 

[Nick]

Bosk, what you're saying from an audio perspective I COMPLETELY get and agree with. That said, from a visual perspective, it's still silly. I understand why it's done the way it does, but that doesn't keep it from looking silly to myself, and obviously many others. I suppose there really isn't much that can be done about it, while keeping the audio John wants in tact, so it will go on looking silly to us.

[OsMosis2259]

The weak sounding drums were one thing that bothered me on LALP, but these drums definitely sound more powerful and pleasant to me. They sound like what the DT12 drums were meant to sound like.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

[RodrigoAltaf]

The weak sounding drums were one thing that bothered me on LALP, but these drums definitely sound more powerful and pleasant to me. They sound like what the DT12 drums were meant to sound like.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

Agreed. A HUGE step up drum-sound wise from their previous three rteleases with Mangini.

[theseoafs]

The weak sounding drums were one thing that bothered me on LALP, but these drums definitely sound more powerful and pleasant to me. They sound like what the DT12 drums were meant to sound like.

Yup.

[aprilethereal]

It's so annoying that every time DT releases any promo video for anything, it's not available in my country

Zenmate is your friend. Very useful for that kind of things.

thanks

[Dani Helios]

Soon.

Too soon?!

It's just a matter of time, yo.

I think you mean ONLY a matter of time...
ahuhuhuh, so punny! 

[dparrott]

See, I think the best way to do live releases is to set a price for the CD set, a price for the DVD set and a price for the BluRay set. And then they could sell a set of, for example, BluRay+CD, at a price that's like $5-$10 lower than the price of the BluRay plus the price of the CD. And same thing for DVD+CD and perhaps also for Blu-Ray+DVD+CD. This whole "hope they have a set in the specific configuration that you want" thing is kind of silly. They may think that they're increasing profits by luring people who want CDs to a more expensive package, and that might be so for some people, but I'm more likely to just skip the CD than buy a BluRay that I don't want just to get it.

+1.  They must think all DT fans are rich.  I sure don't have time to watch a live DVD, but I can blast the CD's in my car, where I spend a lot of my time.

[Sycsa]

Some really unorthodox YouTube comments under the video, it's like those guys live in a parallel universe:

Portnoy leaving isn't the answer either. Dream Theater joined the loudness war all the way back to Falling Into Infinity and haven't redeemed themselves yet. In fact, ACOS is their absolute worst.

ACoS maybe be one of their best songs, but the mix is just, weird. The drums are super buried, and the mix sounds too much like I&W, which didn't have the best of mixes.

it because I&W producer is producing ACoS, the band just generally hate the producer to guts. I really hate I&W in term of production, that's why I rather listen to Pull Me Under and Another Day on their greatest hits album.

[TheGreatPretender]

Actually, I'm not crazy about the mix of ACOS. Nothing to do with the drums or anything, there's just something about it... I don't know how to describe it, but it's not great.

[jingle.boy]

Oh good lord I'm regretting posting in this thread.   

[Grizz]

I hope I can have a second of being seen in the audience, but thus far I've only seen the lower mezzanine.

[metrojam]

So ONCE again, just like LALP, those of us who would like the live CD's but dont have a blu ray player are going to be unlucky again!!

[TheGreatPretender]

Get a blu-ray player!

[TAC]

So ONCE again, just like LALP, those of us who would like the live CD's but dont have a blu ray player are going to be unlucky again!!

My LALP is a CD/DVD combo.

[bosk1]

So ONCE again, just like LALP, those of us who would like the live CD's but dont have a blu ray player are going to be unlucky again!!

I understand.  But the label is following the technology, so it shouldn't be a surprise. 

(but LALP had a CD/DVD version, so I am not sure what you are referring to there)