Where does Illumination Theory sit in relation to the other "mega-epics"?

[bosk1]

I am counting only those epics that are close to 20 minutes or longer.  Yes, there are obviously epics I am leaving out.  But A Change Of Seasons set the bar higher in terms of gigantic epics for the band, and even they seem to put their longer songs into a different category than, say, their 10-12 minute epics.  So, rank the following:

A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

A few months ago, I would have ranked IT pretty low.  I liked all the parts, but there are so many disparate things going on throughout the course of the song that it wasn't really clicking for me as a whole piece.  I have gotten past that and really love it now.  Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how I would rank it.  But I will do my best to post my ranking later.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In The Presence of Enemies
Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany

[KevShmev]

Right now, I'm not sure. 

A Change of Seasons is still the best of the bunch for me; that would be a borderline top 10 songs for me.

Illumination Theory is about as good as Octavarium and The Count of Tuscany. In what order I put them would probably vary from day to day. All would sit in probably the 18-25 level of my favorite DT songs.

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, as a whole, is so bloated that I can't rate it too highly, although it does have some parts I love to death.

In the Presence of Enemies is definitely the least best of the bunch.

[Marion Crane]

6 Degrees
ACOS
Tuscany
Enemies


Octavarium








IT

[wasteland]

None of those are in my top 10, probably, but I think they all rank 10-20, save from ITPOE and SDOIT. I'd say ACOS and IT are pretty close, maybe with ACOS having a slight edge of one/two positions, while IT and 8VM are probably equal.

ACOS
IT
8VM
TCOT
SDOIT
ITPOE

[ReaPsTA]

Octavarium - I have to respect longevity.  Also, the composition is singularly brilliant.

Illumination Theory - Gonna put it here.  I love this song so much.

A Change of Seasons - Classic.

The Count of Tuscany - The music is great.

In the Presence of Enemies - The stuff after the second "servants of the fallen" bridge meanders too much.

Six Degrees - I have no idea how good or bad it is because 42 minutes is too long.

[BlobVanDam]

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - The most melodic of the epics, and imo the best. Those 42 minutes fly by every single time.
Octavarium - Such strong musical themes, and chill inducing. One of DT's best songs.

The Count of Tuscany - despite the flaws of the lyrical sections, the music of this song is among DT's best ever.

In The Presence Of Enemies - a weaker instrumental section, but otherwise quite underrated. A lot of nice touches throughout.
Illumination Theory - great overall, but it feels more segmented than the higher ranked epics, and thus doesn't feel like a true DT epic, and the outro lets it down.
A Change Of Seasons - it's like a ball of soap made from leftover pieces of other soaps.

[Tom Bombadil]

TCOT- just pure brilliance
Octavarium- a very close 2nd
ACOS- still really good
ITPOE- average
IT-  not my cup of tea
SDOIT- definitely not my cup of tea

[OsMosis2259]

I love all tracks. Here is my take:

These two are flawless:
8VM
ACOS

IT (Certain sections are awesome but the production kind of brings it down for me. The songwriting kind of lacks in flow IMO )
TCOT (great piece... flows really well but the lyrics kind of drag it down)

While certain sections are amazing, there are just of couple parts that I can live without:
SDOIT
ITPOE

Overall I think all the epics are great and all of these tracks are probably in my top 25 DT songs!

[?]

1. ACOS
2. TCOT
3. 6DOIT
4. IT
5. ITPOE
6. 8V

ACOS is in my top 5, although I don't listen to it too often. TCOT has ridiculous lyrics, but I like the flow of the music, and the ambient section and the ending are amazing. The rest wouldn't make my top 50 and I barely ever listen to them. I like the individual sections in Six Degrees and there are some great themes and melodies, but as a 42-minute piece it's not cohesive enough to feel like one song. IT lacks cohesion as well because of the ambient and orchestral section that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum, but I started to like the song a bit more after hearing it live. ITPOE and 8V both have their flaws, but ITPOE wins based on the strength of the first half.

[krands85]

1. Octavarium

2. In the Presence of Enemies
3. Illumination Theory
4. A Change of Seasons
5. The Count of Tuscany




6. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

The first 5 are all in my top 10 DT tracks, with Octavarium clearly sitting above the rest. Six Degrees has never clicked for me for some reason and it's way down my rankings. The 4 sandwiched between 8VM and 6DOIT are interchangeable really, especially since IT still has that 'newness' going for it.

[GentlemanofDread]

In The Presence Of Enemies
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A Change Of Seasons
Octavarium

I'd like to note Count of Tuscany/Illumination Theory are interchangable in positioning for me.

[robwebster]

I can't quite put my finger on what "epicness" is, but I don't think it's something Six Degrees, In the Presence of Enemies, and certainly The Count of Tuscany have. They're long songs, and good long songs, but they don't feel like journeys in the same way as the three mega-epics - The Count of Tuscany has way more in common with A Nightmare to Remember than it ever has with A Change of Seasons.

So within the pantheon of epics, IT sits as follows...

1. Illumination Theory
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons

I think Octavarium's probably a better song, but I wore it out in 2005 and it never quite recovered. It stays near the top because it's properly brilliant, but Octavarium is a "sometimes" song, whereas Illumination Theory bowls me over every single time.

That said, just because I don't think the other three are epics doesn't mean they're not as good as - or sometimes better than - their epic counterparts.

1. Illumination Theory
2. Octavarium
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. A Change of Seasons
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies

Still at the top. But, context and all that!

[CharlesPL]

1. ACOS
2. 6DOIT
3. 8V
4. IT
5. TCOT
6. ITPOE

[TheGreatPretender]

ITPOE

8VM
ACOS

IT
TCOT

SDOIT

[bl5150]

IT


SDOIT
ACOS
TCOT
8VM




ITPOE


Only IT would make it near my top 20.

[Dark Castle]

Illumination Theory

Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany

[Podaar]

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory
In the Presence of Enemies
Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany

That being said, the bottom four could easily change positions from day to day and I find little about them that I would dare criticize. Only the top two are sacrosanct and will probably never be bumped out of their positions. Though I'm hesitant to say never.

[Syzzle]

Octavarium

Illumination Theory

A Change of Seasons

The Count of Tuscany

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

In the Presence of Enemies

[Marion Crane]

I'm really envious of all of you who actually like Illumination Theory

[naranha]

I actually think IT is one of their greatest epics. It just blows my mind on multiple levels, especially part I+II for me are part of the best compositions they have ever done. The rest is also just phenomenal.

1. Illumination Theory // A Change of Seasons

3. In the Presence of Enemies
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5. The Count of Tuscany








X. Octavarium

[Lucien]

Octavarium
Illumination Theory
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Six Degrees
Octavarium/A Change Of Seasons
The Count Of Tuscany
In The Presence Of Enemies
Raw Dog
Illumination Theory

[Octavarious]

Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons

In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory

The 1st 4 quite far from the last 2, which I would rank very close.

[jammindude]

Hmmmm....gut instinct tells me...

1. A Change of Seasons
2. Octavarium
3. Six Degrees
4. Illumination Theory

5. Count of Tuscany






















6. ITPOE


EDIT:  The top 4 are so close that it's practically a dead heat.   Very difficult to choose among them, and I'm sure they could swap places on a whim.    TCOT is really excellent, but doesn't quite reach the brilliance of the top 4.    ITPOE is just not very good.   I almost never listen to it, and every time I do I usually don't care to repeat the experience.    The first part is pretty cool.    Part 2.....isn't.   

[Outcrier]

Best: A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, Six Degrees.

Good: In The Presence Of Enemies.

Indifference: The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory.

[theseoafs]

8V
6DOIT
IT
ACOS


TCOT



ITPOE

[TAC]

To me, IT loses big time points for the orchestra section, which just doesn't work for me. From 6:00 to 7:00 is literally one of my favorite minutes in the entire DT catalog, and then boom, it's gone.
Now I've heard the same complaints about TCOT's swell section, but to me, that section just works better.

But other than that, I just love IT. But I almost always FF through that part, which is a real drag.

For me:

Octavarium
A Change Of Seasons
The Count Of Tuscany

IT/ITPOE



6 D's

[Infinite Cactus]

Octavarium
A Change Of Seasons
Illumination Theory
In The Presence of Enemies

The Count Of Tuscany



Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

[robwebster]

To me, IT loses big time points for the orchestra section, which just doesn't work for me. From 6:00 to 7:00 is literally one of my favorite minutes in the entire DT catalog, and then boom, it's gone.
Now I've heard the same complaints about TCOT's swell section, but to me, that section just works better.

That's funny! I'm sort of on the other side of this one.

I think The Count of Tuscany's swell section is a bit like a half-formed wisp of what would later go into Illumination Theory. It's a good stab, but it's not emotive enough to be interesting, and it isn't stark enough to form much of a contrast to the rest of the song. It's still nice, you can lose yourself in it, but Illumination Theory dances on my heartstrings, where The Count of Tuscany just manages pleasant, warm and diverting. IT is way more affecting, for me. But the variety is good! Something for everyone.

[TAC]

It's funny how those two songs have the same kind of thing going on in the middle, yet different people have the same complaints about each.

The live version from the Worcester Palladium in 2010 had JP going off during that part. Incredible.

And ITPOE also seems to stop short.

I think that's the thing that gets me about IT. If they had done that one first, , I might feel differently about it. But I had high hopes that this lineup put an epic on this album whereas ADTOE didn't have one.
I think IT suffers from some pretty high expectations on my part. So I was especially disappointed when the stopped the song dead in its tracks, just as they have done the last two epics they'd recorded. I guess I was hoping for something a little more creative this time around, not the same.

[robwebster]

Again - I'm the opposite! The Count of Tuscany sounds like Illumination Theory's prototype. Like they were getting somewhere with it, they were writing along the right lines, you can hear the germ of a concept that would later become Illumination Theory, but they didn't quite achieve that for another few years. Illumination Theory, for me, is like The Count of Tuscany with the creativity, invention and madness cranked all the way up to eleven.

I mean, that's an oversimplification, and a shorthand - in truth, they're just two heavyish songs with ambient midsections, the outskirts couldn't be more different - but those ambient midsections are central, so it's not entirely superficial. I feel like Illumination Theory is innately epic, where every last moment is essential to the next, whereas The Count of Tuscany is a (completely badass!) verse-chorus-verse-chorus type rocker that spiralled out of control.

[Scrub206]

Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
6DOIT
Illumination Theory
ITPOE

[TAC]

That's cool. I understand your POV.

But Rob, if the next epic stops dead in its tracks 7-8 minutes in, please think of me.

[Kotowboy]

A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory

1. Octavarium. My favourite song from my favourite album. I can EASILY listen to the full 24 minutes in one go.
2. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence. Easier to digest if you think of it as 8 individual pieces. All of which are great.
3. Illumination Theory. Great riffage. Great vocals from James. Good sections. And THAT middle section.
4. The Count of Tuscany. As Rob said - it sounds in retrospect like a precursor to Illumination Theory. Still rocking and fun in it's own right.
5. In The Presence Of Enemies. Part 1 > Part 2 for my money. Not their best / most well written / most interesting 20+ minute song.
6. A Change Of Seasons. But at least it doesn't sound like lots of random bits of songs all shoved together like ACOS does in my opinion. Never got the big deal with this song. I've heard it like three times but i've not enjoyed it any of those times. It doesn't flow very well at all.