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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: bosk1 on April 11, 2014, 08:00:35 AM
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I am counting only those epics that are close to 20 minutes or longer. Yes, there are obviously epics I am leaving out. But A Change Of Seasons set the bar higher in terms of gigantic epics for the band, and even they seem to put their longer songs into a different category than, say, their 10-12 minute epics. So, rank the following:
A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A few months ago, I would have ranked IT pretty low. I liked all the parts, but there are so many disparate things going on throughout the course of the song that it wasn't really clicking for me as a whole piece. I have gotten past that and really love it now. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how I would rank it. But I will do my best to post my ranking later.
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A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In The Presence of Enemies
Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany
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Right now, I'm not sure.
A Change of Seasons is still the best of the bunch for me; that would be a borderline top 10 songs for me.
Illumination Theory is about as good as Octavarium and The Count of Tuscany. In what order I put them would probably vary from day to day. All would sit in probably the 18-25 level of my favorite DT songs.
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, as a whole, is so bloated that I can't rate it too highly, although it does have some parts I love to death.
In the Presence of Enemies is definitely the least best of the bunch.
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6 Degrees
ACOS
Tuscany
Enemies
Octavarium
IT
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None of those are in my top 10, probably, but I think they all rank 10-20, save from ITPOE and SDOIT. I'd say ACOS and IT are pretty close, maybe with ACOS having a slight edge of one/two positions, while IT and 8VM are probably equal.
ACOS
IT
8VM
TCOT
SDOIT
ITPOE
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Octavarium - I have to respect longevity. Also, the composition is singularly brilliant.
Illumination Theory - Gonna put it here. I love this song so much.
A Change of Seasons - Classic.
The Count of Tuscany - The music is great.
In the Presence of Enemies - The stuff after the second "servants of the fallen" bridge meanders too much.
Six Degrees - I have no idea how good or bad it is because 42 minutes is too long.
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Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - The most melodic of the epics, and imo the best. Those 42 minutes fly by every single time.
Octavarium - Such strong musical themes, and chill inducing. One of DT's best songs.
The Count of Tuscany - despite the flaws of the lyrical sections, the music of this song is among DT's best ever.
In The Presence Of Enemies - a weaker instrumental section, but otherwise quite underrated. A lot of nice touches throughout.
Illumination Theory - great overall, but it feels more segmented than the higher ranked epics, and thus doesn't feel like a true DT epic, and the outro lets it down.
A Change Of Seasons - it's like a ball of soap made from leftover pieces of other soaps.
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TCOT- just pure brilliance
Octavarium- a very close 2nd
ACOS- still really good
ITPOE- average
IT- not my cup of tea
SDOIT- definitely not my cup of tea
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I love all tracks. Here is my take:
These two are flawless:
8VM
ACOS
IT (Certain sections are awesome but the production kind of brings it down for me. The songwriting kind of lacks in flow IMO )
TCOT (great piece... flows really well but the lyrics kind of drag it down)
While certain sections are amazing, there are just of couple parts that I can live without:
SDOIT
ITPOE
Overall I think all the epics are great and all of these tracks are probably in my top 25 DT songs!
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1. ACOS
2. TCOT
3. 6DOIT
4. IT
5. ITPOE
6. 8V
ACOS is in my top 5, although I don't listen to it too often. TCOT has ridiculous lyrics, but I like the flow of the music, and the ambient section and the ending are amazing. The rest wouldn't make my top 50 and I barely ever listen to them. I like the individual sections in Six Degrees and there are some great themes and melodies, but as a 42-minute piece it's not cohesive enough to feel like one song. IT lacks cohesion as well because of the ambient and orchestral section that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum, but I started to like the song a bit more after hearing it live. ITPOE and 8V both have their flaws, but ITPOE wins based on the strength of the first half.
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1. Octavarium
2. In the Presence of Enemies
3. Illumination Theory
4. A Change of Seasons
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The first 5 are all in my top 10 DT tracks, with Octavarium clearly sitting above the rest. Six Degrees has never clicked for me for some reason and it's way down my rankings. The 4 sandwiched between 8VM and 6DOIT are interchangeable really, especially since IT still has that 'newness' going for it.
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In The Presence Of Enemies
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A Change Of Seasons
Octavarium
I'd like to note Count of Tuscany/Illumination Theory are interchangable in positioning for me.
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I can't quite put my finger on what "epicness" is, but I don't think it's something Six Degrees, In the Presence of Enemies, and certainly The Count of Tuscany have. They're long songs, and good long songs, but they don't feel like journeys in the same way as the three mega-epics - The Count of Tuscany has way more in common with A Nightmare to Remember than it ever has with A Change of Seasons.
So within the pantheon of epics, IT sits as follows...
1. Illumination Theory
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
I think Octavarium's probably a better song, but I wore it out in 2005 and it never quite recovered. It stays near the top because it's properly brilliant, but Octavarium is a "sometimes" song, whereas Illumination Theory bowls me over every single time.
That said, just because I don't think the other three are epics doesn't mean they're not as good as - or sometimes better than - their epic counterparts.
1. Illumination Theory
2. Octavarium
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. A Change of Seasons
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies
Still at the top. But, context and all that!
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1. ACOS
2. 6DOIT
3. 8V
4. IT
5. TCOT
6. ITPOE
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ITPOE
8VM
ACOS
IT
TCOT
SDOIT
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IT
SDOIT
ACOS
TCOT
8VM
ITPOE
Only IT would make it near my top 20.
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Illumination Theory
Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
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Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory
In the Presence of Enemies
Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany
That being said, the bottom four could easily change positions from day to day and I find little about them that I would dare criticize. Only the top two are sacrosanct and will probably never be bumped out of their positions. Though I'm hesitant to say never.
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Octavarium
Illumination Theory
A Change of Seasons
The Count of Tuscany
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In the Presence of Enemies
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I'm really envious of all of you who actually like Illumination Theory
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I actually think IT is one of their greatest epics. It just blows my mind on multiple levels, especially part I+II for me are part of the best compositions they have ever done. The rest is also just phenomenal.
1. Illumination Theory // A Change of Seasons
3. In the Presence of Enemies
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5. The Count of Tuscany
X. Octavarium
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Octavarium
Illumination Theory
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies
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Six Degrees
Octavarium/A Change Of Seasons
The Count Of Tuscany
In The Presence Of Enemies
Raw Dog
Illumination Theory
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Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
The 1st 4 quite far from the last 2, which I would rank very close.
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Hmmmm....gut instinct tells me...
1. A Change of Seasons
2. Octavarium
3. Six Degrees
4. Illumination Theory
5. Count of Tuscany
6. ITPOE
EDIT: The top 4 are so close that it's practically a dead heat. Very difficult to choose among them, and I'm sure they could swap places on a whim. TCOT is really excellent, but doesn't quite reach the brilliance of the top 4. ITPOE is just not very good. I almost never listen to it, and every time I do I usually don't care to repeat the experience. The first part is pretty cool. Part 2.....isn't.
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Best: A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, Six Degrees.
Good: In The Presence Of Enemies.
Indifference: The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory.
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8V
6DOIT
IT
ACOS
TCOT
ITPOE
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To me, IT loses big time points for the orchestra section, which just doesn't work for me. From 6:00 to 7:00 is literally one of my favorite minutes in the entire DT catalog, and then boom, it's gone.
Now I've heard the same complaints about TCOT's swell section, but to me, that section just works better.
But other than that, I just love IT. But I almost always FF through that part, which is a real drag.
For me:
Octavarium
A Change Of Seasons
The Count Of Tuscany
IT/ITPOE
6 D's
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Octavarium
A Change Of Seasons
Illumination Theory
In The Presence of Enemies
The Count Of Tuscany
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
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To me, IT loses big time points for the orchestra section, which just doesn't work for me. From 6:00 to 7:00 is literally one of my favorite minutes in the entire DT catalog, and then boom, it's gone.
Now I've heard the same complaints about TCOT's swell section, but to me, that section just works better.
That's funny! I'm sort of on the other side of this one.
I think The Count of Tuscany's swell section is a bit like a half-formed wisp of what would later go into Illumination Theory. It's a good stab, but it's not emotive enough to be interesting, and it isn't stark enough to form much of a contrast to the rest of the song. It's still nice, you can lose yourself in it, but Illumination Theory dances on my heartstrings, where The Count of Tuscany just manages pleasant, warm and diverting. IT is way more affecting, for me. But the variety is good! Something for everyone.
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It's funny how those two songs have the same kind of thing going on in the middle, yet different people have the same complaints about each.
The live version from the Worcester Palladium in 2010 had JP going off during that part. Incredible.
And ITPOE also seems to stop short.
I think that's the thing that gets me about IT. If they had done that one first, , I might feel differently about it. But I had high hopes that this lineup put an epic on this album whereas ADTOE didn't have one.
I think IT suffers from some pretty high expectations on my part. So I was especially disappointed when the stopped the song dead in its tracks, just as they have done the last two epics they'd recorded. I guess I was hoping for something a little more creative this time around, not the same.
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Again - I'm the opposite! The Count of Tuscany sounds like Illumination Theory's prototype. Like they were getting somewhere with it, they were writing along the right lines, you can hear the germ of a concept that would later become Illumination Theory, but they didn't quite achieve that for another few years. Illumination Theory, for me, is like The Count of Tuscany with the creativity, invention and madness cranked all the way up to eleven.
I mean, that's an oversimplification, and a shorthand - in truth, they're just two heavyish songs with ambient midsections, the outskirts couldn't be more different - but those ambient midsections are central, so it's not entirely superficial. I feel like Illumination Theory is innately epic, where every last moment is essential to the next, whereas The Count of Tuscany is a (completely badass!) verse-chorus-verse-chorus type rocker that spiralled out of control.
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Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
6DOIT
Illumination Theory
ITPOE
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That's cool. I understand your POV.
But Rob, if the next epic stops dead in its tracks 7-8 minutes in, please think of me. ;D
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A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
1. Octavarium. My favourite song from my favourite album. I can EASILY listen to the full 24 minutes in one go.
2. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence. Easier to digest if you think of it as 8 individual pieces. All of which are great.
3. Illumination Theory. Great riffage. Great vocals from James. Good sections. And THAT middle section.
4. The Count of Tuscany. As Rob said - it sounds in retrospect like a precursor to Illumination Theory. Still rocking and fun in it's own right.
5. In The Presence Of Enemies. Part 1 > Part 2 for my money. Not their best / most well written / most interesting 20+ minute song.
6. A Change Of Seasons. But at least it doesn't sound like lots of random bits of songs all shoved together like ACOS does in my opinion. Never got the big deal with this song. I've heard it like three times but i've not enjoyed it any of those times. It doesn't flow very well at all.
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Octavarium
6DOIT
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory
ITPOE
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That's cool. I understand your POV.
But Rob, if the next epic stops dead in its tracks 7-8 minutes in, please think of me. ;D
Hahahaha - I'm sure I will!
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A Change Of Seasons
The Count Of Tuscany
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
Illumination Theory
In The Presence Of Enemies
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So why does everyone rate ACOS so highly ?
Every time i've heard it i've been like ??? This is nowhere near as good as Octavarium in my opinion. It sounds like bits and pieces they left out of other songs
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I'm not sure that anything flows as nice as 8V, as I feel it is truly one of DT's best written songs.
ACOS also has a great flow, and is pretty powerful lyrically. That final "I will live oooooonnnnnnn" is goosebumps inducing everything. One of my favorite moments in their catalog.
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Octavarium's perfect - it's the constant intensifying. It fades from silence, into ambience, into orchestra, into a soft acoustic guitar bit, into soft rock, into harder rock, into technical metal, and culminates in an agonised scream. It earns the fuck out of that ending. Bloody stellar.
So I'd say "More scattershot than Octavarium" is faint scorn. I do remember it wasn't that long ago people used to complain about how wanky The Darkest of Winters was. Misplaced ire, I felt then as now. A Change of Seasons is one of those songs I never end up listening to, though - it's probably among my least-listened DT songs. It's not like Don't Look Past Me, where you can just stick it onto the end of Images and Words, or Cover My Eyes et al. where it's part and parcel of the FII demos - it doesn't fit snugly into any era or album, so it's not something I end up groping for when I fancy putting some Dream Theater on. I might pop it on a disc with Raise the Knife, as was the original plan. Figure in a couple more FII cuts, see what comes out.
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ACOS. It's after all *the* DT epic. I remember hearing about it before the EP came out, and it was a giddy sense of excitement to hear this "secret song" live.
Octavarium. There's just almost nothing to be criticized about, it flows very cool.
SDOIT, even though I don't see it as an epic
TCOT. Always liked the "openness" of the song.
Illumination Theory. OK song I guess, but it's just sooo "been there, done that". Single most redeeming thing is the orchestral section.
ITPOE. WTF.
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BUT the orchestra section is the "been there done that" part of the song! The only difference is that they are actually using an orchestra.
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The orchestra section is my favorite part of the song.
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Hey, you can call it "Been there done that" but IT isn't about doing something new and innovative with the TD formula, it's about perfecting it.
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I'd like to preface this by saying that DT are masters in the epics department. Not a single one disappoints me.
1. A Change of Seasons / Octavarium
These two are interchangeable for me at any time. No matter how many times I listen to either, I can't bring myself to choose one or the other. Octavarium has that absolutely amazing ambient intro and some of DT's best instrumental passages ever, as well as some of JLB's most stunning vocal performances. The entire song flows so incredibly well, I still have trouble wrapping my head around that. ACOS has other strengths and is consistently impressing throughout. It never feels like it delves in something for too long and soon moves on to the next interesting idea.
2. Illumination Theory: Amazing riffage, amazing grooves, JLB is on fire and MM's drumming truly shining. The controversial orchestral section sits so well with me, I can't possibly see any issue in it.
3. The Count of Tuscany: The intro and ending are definite highlights not only for Black Clouds as an album, but in all of DT's discography. Seriously some of the most beautiful stuff they've ever composed, as well as the ambient section in the middle.
4. In the Presence of Enemies: Obviously their heaviest, and one that delivers. I can never understand how anyone can say it isn't amazing. Yes, this falls right into "typical DT wankery", but I fucking love it, and the instrumentation fits the theme so well.
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: The fact that this one comes last shouldn't be seen as any sort of detriment. I think the only thing it might suffer from is some sections feeling somewhat long and drawn out and not flowing quite as well as their other epics. It's much easier to see it as seven separate songs, but each one leaves me satisfied in the end and there are still definite highlights to be found throughout.
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So why does everyone rate ACOS so highly ?
Every time i've heard it i've been like ??? This is nowhere near as good as Octavarium in my opinion. It sounds like bits and pieces they left out of other songs
I agree. There's no section of it I think is *bad*, but it doesn't have the high points of any of the other epics to me, and for me the songwriting still has too many relics of the WDADU era style of songwriting. The final version was much improved, but it still feels like a young band who just threw everything in there to be prog.
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Throwing it all in there just to be prog sums up Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence for me in a nutshell, and the transitions in that are far more jarring and forced than any you hear in A Change of Seasons.
Don't get me wrong, I still love most of the individual sections of SDOIT, but a cohesive and well-flowing whole, it is certainly not.
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Six Degrees
Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory
In The Presence of Enemies
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Throwing it all in there just to be prog sums up Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence for me in a nutshell, and the transitions in that are far more jarring and forced than any you hear in A Change of Seasons.
Don't get me wrong, I still love most of the individual sections of SDOIT, but a cohesive and well-flowing whole, it is certainly not.
But SDOIT isn't long just to be prog, in fact the reason it works so perfectly is because it's a long piece that benefits from more "pop" structured sensibilities in each section to give it strong melodies and hooks.
ACOS just feels scrappy to me. It feels like a 20 minute WDADU song with JLB on vocals. The 1995 version was an improvement, but it still retained a lot of those problems.
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I am counting only those epics that are close to 20 minutes or longer. Yes, there are obviously epics I am leaving out. But A Change Of Seasons set the bar higher in terms of gigantic epics for the band, and even they seem to put their longer songs into a different category than, say, their 10-12 minute epics. So, rank the following:
A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
A few months ago, I would have ranked IT pretty low. I liked all the parts, but there are so many disparate things going on throughout the course of the song that it wasn't really clicking for me as a whole piece. I have gotten past that and really love it now. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how I would rank it. But I will do my best to post my ranking later.
Of these listed, only 6DOIT would make my list. ITPOE would be up there too, but only part one - the rest couldn't hold my interest. Never liked ACOS, or 8VM and I always found TCOT to be one of their worst songs.
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ACOS (demo version)
Tied:
IT
TCOT
ACOS (album version)
Octavarium
SDOIT
ITPOE
It pains me to rank ITPOE that low because I really love the song, but it's up against harsh competition!
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I made an entire ranking of their discography a few years ago but its different than off the top of my head. I need to listen the epics again. Rankings change constantly for me.
Six Degrees
Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
ITPOE
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
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Throwing it all in there just to be prog sums up Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence for me in a nutshell, and the transitions in that are far more jarring and forced than any you hear in A Change of Seasons.
Don't get me wrong, I still love most of the individual sections of SDOIT, but a cohesive and well-flowing whole, it is certainly not.
But SDOIT isn't long just to be prog, in fact the reason it works so perfectly is because it's a long piece that benefits from more "pop" structured sensibilities in each section to give it strong melodies and hooks.
ACOS just feels scrappy to me. It feels like a 20 minute WDADU song with JLB on vocals. The 1995 version was an improvement, but it still retained a lot of those problems.
I know what you mean, but I quite like that it's got aspects of the entire Moore era. I like that it doesn't belong to any one album cycle - you can hear the band that wrote The Killing Hand, the band that wrote Under a Glass Moon and the band that wrote Voices all sort of jostling about, and I think they dovetail nicely. It summarises an entire era in a way that no song ever did before or since - and while I don't think that's the definitive Dream Theater, I think it's a golden age but the first of many, I completely respect that for some people, those albums are about as good as it got, so I totally get that for some of those people, something that reeks of all three of them, for twenty minutes, with technicality and riffs and emotion, would kind of be the last word in Dream Theater.
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A Change Of Seasons
Illumination Theory
Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In The Presence Of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
TCOT would probably be higher if it weren't for the mind-numbing lyrics. But even so, both that and ITPOE don't feel as "epic" to me as the other four - they seem just like really long songs. Just a "feel" thing for me.
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Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
Six Degress of Inner Turbulence
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
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Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Illumination Theory
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies
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Octavarium - The best constructed and most cohesive of their epics, plus Floyd filled goodness
ACOS - While there are still some flaws, nostalgia keeps this one high up my rankings a bit. It is the epic I judge ever epic against.
6DOIT - This was probably the single most played disc in my music collection combined with the Score version for years
IT - The strings and the "easter egg" nudge this just a smidge above TCOT for me...also stronger lyrical themes
TCOT - Better musical themes overall than IT, but far weaker lyrics drag it just below IT.
ITPOE - If they would have released this as a single combined song with a good connector and trimmed about a 1m or so from the 2nd part it would be better than TCOT.
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Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
In The Presence of Enemies
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1. A Change of Seasons
2. Octavarium
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In the Presence of Enemies
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So damn tough because they are all great. At this moment, on this day...
1) ACoS
2) All tied - SDoIT, TCoT, ItPoE, IT
3) 8V
I will say that the middle section of IT is some of the most beautiful music I've ever heard. By any band.
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Throwing it all in there just to be prog sums up Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence for me in a nutshell, and the transitions in that are far more jarring and forced than any you hear in A Change of Seasons.
Don't get me wrong, I still love most of the individual sections of SDOIT, but a cohesive and well-flowing whole, it is certainly not.
But SDOIT isn't long just to be prog, in fact the reason it works so perfectly is because it's a long piece that benefits from more "pop" structured sensibilities in each section to give it strong melodies and hooks.
ACOS just feels scrappy to me. It feels like a 20 minute WDADU song with JLB on vocals. The 1995 version was an improvement, but it still retained a lot of those problems.
Well, I am pretty sure we will never agree on this, so we can agree to disagree. :lol :biggrin:
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A Change Of Seasons
Octavarium
The Count of Tuscany
In The Presence Of Enemies
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Illumination Theory
With some scaling for emphasis.
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Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium / A Change Of Seasons
Illumination Theory
The Count Of Tuscany
In The Presence Of Enemies
Now, don't get me wrong - I really enjoy ITPOE (especially as one track, which is the only way I listen to it anymore), but TCOT has better musical moments. It is rather interesting, though, how IT has shot up past them. It really has some great parts and it's a very beautiful epic. The top three, however, will always be top three, and SDOIT will always be my favorite epic by DT.
-Marc.
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A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
I had not heard A Change of Seasons in quite a while, but when I heard it perhaps a month ago, it still held on to the great song I remembered it to be. Perhaps the most chill-inducing DT song ever, so I couldn't rank IT on the first spot. It takes the second, quite fairly I think. Very entertaining to listen, has a ton of jaw-dropping moments, nice lyrical content.
TCoT has never felt like an epic to me, but if it was to be considered one, it's better than SDoIT. I like the individual pieces of the latter, but as one whole song it's extremely bloated. Too much different stuff going on in an overly-long period for a song (please don't even mention TA's The Whirlwind).
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Octavarium
In The Presence Of Enemies
Illumination Theory
The Count Of Tuscany
A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
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The OP listed what I think are some of the greatest DT tracks in the entire discography. I think Illumination Theory is good but not quite on that level. It would certainly make the second highest tier (in the ranks of Breaking All Illusions, Finally Free, and In the Name of God), but it lacks that certain magic factor necessary to boost it to top tier status. Here's how I'd rank 'em:
1. A Change of Seasons
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. Octavarium
4. In the Presence of Enemies - This is the only one that probably needs to be justified. I really like this epic and think it tells a great story. Good lyrics, gnarly riffs, solid mix...nothing to complain about, IMO. (Well, maybe the Super Mario wah-wah-wah-wah-wah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah Ruddess thing right before the final verse.)
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. Illumination Theory
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1. A Change Of Seasons
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. Octavarium
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. Illumination Theory
6. The Count of Tuscany
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It is second highest-rating epic for me, behind Six Degrees of Inner turbulence. Octavarium would come in third.
Some posters here have seen my reason for liking IT, but JUST because I see yet another complaint about disjointedness of the piece, I will quote myself again on my explanation on why IT is not a disjointed piece. It is actually a very cohesive piece in that each movement has a purpose in the whole narrative. Even moreso than Octavarium.
I commented on this in the Illumination Theory appreciation thread, so I will just transfer here a modified version of what I said since we are talking about disjointedness. IT is very cohesive for me because of the symmetry of the song.
Section 1: Paradox of the Black Light. Slow, majestic, a bit heavy so it is not yet "illuminated". This is an overture to the un-illuminated sections of the song.
Section 2: The heavy riffing section. At first this seems to be just a wanky instrumental but it actually acts as a bridge between Section 1 and Section 3. This serves an important narrative function once we get to the later sections. Note also that it is mostly a standard rocking beat, with some time signature changes only at the end upon approaching the Live, Die, Kill section.
Section 3: Live, Die Kill. The section poses the questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found". The section has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.
Section 4: Embracing Circle, ambient section. If Live, Die, Kill referred to a more down-to-earth plane of existence, to grounded reality, the Embracing Circle is situated in a transcendental plane. The ambient section is formless and lengthy, which signifies that the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence and it remains quite unanswered for a long time. The length of the section is important because it serves the narrative function of indicating that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily.
BREAK in the Narrative: Now we start to mirror the previous sections.
Section 5: Embracing Circle, orchestral section. This mirrors Section 4. We are still in the transcendental plane, but unlike Section 4, illumination starts to creep in slowly with the build up of the orchestral part. Illumination climaxes with a moment of enlightenment, signified by the orchestral version of the intro melody. It sort of mirrors Section 1 as well. The end of the orchestral section is an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.
Section 6. The Pursuit of Truth. This mirrors Section 3. The section starts with reverse swells, which signals a return from the transcendental plane to grounded reality. After the moment of enlightenment in The Embracing Circle, the song now has answers to the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill. What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth. The Pursuit of Truth answers the questions of Live, Die, Kill. Still mirroring Section 3, the section also has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.
Section 7: The heavy riffing section. This mirrors Section 2. It follows the same structure and uses the same riff! This serves as a bridge between Section 6 and Section 8. While Section 2 bridged the Paradox to the questions, Section 7 bridged the answers to the Paradox. Like Section 2, this section has a lot of wanky instrumentals and plays to a standard rocking beat, with a change in the tempo at the end approaching the Surrender, Trust and Passion section.
Section 8. Surrender, Trust and Passion. And now we have come full circle. This mirrors Section 1. Section 8 is also slow and majestic, but unlike Section 1, it is uplifting because illumination has already been achieved. Section 1 is titled the Paradox of the Black Light, and the lyrics in Section 8 spell out the paradox. And if I overanalyze the lyrics, even the lyrics here are symmetrical. LOL
Introduce with a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"
Surrender: Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing light.
"When you surrender to the light
You can face the darkest days"
Trust: Middle section, still in keeping the visuality of the Illumination Theory, we refer to opening one's eyes.
"If you open up your eyes
And you put your trust in love
On those cold and endless nights
You will never be alone"
Passion: Mirror the Surrender subsection. Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing bright.
"Passion glows within your heart
Like a furnace burning bright"
Mirror the intro. End with a paradox:
"Until you struggle through the dark
You'll never know that you're alive"
And as one more bit of analysis, which may be stretching a bit. Paradox of the Black Light started with a crescendo drum roll. Surrender, Trust and Passion ends with a decrescendo drum roll.
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This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.
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Erwinrafael, I really like your interpretation of IT! A lot of that actually makes sense, and I wouldn't be that surprised if some of it turned out to be intentional.
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I rank it dead last so I'm not gonna bother listing the others. IT just doesn't make the cut. Sounds like a mash up of a bunch of unoriginal ideas that don't flow together. I compare it to a suit that looks like the lining to a better suit. IT has a few moments here and there, but overall very disappointing.
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I've read that analysis and it's good, but unfortunately it hasn't managed to affect my opinion of IT.
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I rank it dead last so I'm not gonna bother listing the others. IT just doesn't make the cut. Sounds like a mash up of a bunch of unoriginal ideas that don't flow together. I compare it to a suit that looks like the lining to a better suit. IT has a few moments here and there, but overall very disappointing.
Exactly how I feel about A Change Of Seasons.
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I rank it dead last so I'm not gonna bother listing the others. IT just doesn't make the cut. Sounds like a mash up of a bunch of unoriginal ideas that don't flow together. I compare it to a suit that looks like the lining to a better suit. IT has a few moments here and there, but overall very disappointing.
Exactly how I feel about A Change Of Seasons.
I'd say the same about either TCOT or 8VM.
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I like all of their epics, but I'd feel either SDOIT or ACOS are the most disjointed. Doesn't make them bad, after all, most multimovement pieces (namely Symphonies) are completely disjointed between movements that have nothing to do with each other.
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I like all of their epics, but I'd feel either SDOIT or ACOS are the most disjointed. Doesn't make them bad, after all, most multimovement pieces (namely Symphonies) are completely disjointed between movements that have nothing to do with each other.
Yeah, I really don't get why things like being disjointed, or the presence of wankery are considered bad things. They're what makes TD unique. Having one song that sounds like several songs in one, going back and forth between different themes, is one of the greatest things about DT.
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1. Octavarium
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. A Change of Seasons
4. Illumination Theory
5. In The Presence of Enemies
6. The Count of Tuscany
Honestly some of the middle 2-5 are pretty interchangeable, but I never thought of Count of Tuscany as a full blown DT "epic," and the break in the middle reaalllyy disconnects the song for me. It's pretty and all, but being so long it gets hard for me to sit through. I have the same problem with IT, but to a lesser extent.
On the other hand, 8VM is a quintessential DT epic in my eyes and is almost flawless considering the theme and its purpose etc.etc. It's just build up and build up and you're not really sure where it's going until the last 5-6 minutes and you're just like *mind blown* :D
I also am against the popular opinion that SDOIT and ACOS or the likes are disjointed. I think the parts of each epic flow perfectly. The only jarring change I really see is from War Inside My Head -> Test That Stumped Them All
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Octavarium tops my list.
IT comes second by a little difference over the third.
And that third is ACOS.
6DOIT is my fourth. Even though I love it so much, never managed to give me the feels the first 3 did.
ITPOE is a hard song, the topic is wonderful and how they progressed through it is great. But is only the fifth.
TCOT is the last among these 6. I still love it very much, but it feels very cheesy compared to 8VM or IT or 6DOIT in the way it tells the story.
Yep, that's all ;D
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1. A Change of Seasons: There are parts I really don't like, but the rest is pure gold.
2. Octavarium: I like the song, but I don't love it.
3. The Count of Tuscany: Good, but cheesy.
4. In the Presence of Enemies: It would rank higher, but it don't like the long instrumental section and ending of Pt. 2.
5. Illumination Theory: Orchestra feels out of place, and it took me a while to like this song.
6. Six Degrees: Too long.
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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time. :lol
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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time. :lol
Perhaps it's because ACOS doesn't have a 4-minute ambient/orchestral break that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum?
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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time. :lol
Perhaps it's because ACOS doesn't have a 4-minute ambient/orchestral break that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum?
It's like a good action movie. If it bombards you with non-stop action all the way through, you grow numb to the excitement that brings. But if it takes periodical breaks to develop the story, and gets your mind off the action for a bit, then when it does come back, it's that much more exciting, and this is precisely the case for IT.
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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time. :lol
Perhaps it's because ACOS doesn't have a 4-minute ambient/orchestral break that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum?
while ACOS has a choo-choo train that goes chugga-chugga which comes out of nowhere and drives the song in a very different direction. :lol
I wouldn't say that the IT ambient and orchestral section came out of nowhere. once you see the whole - The BIGGER PICTURE - you would see that it actually fits and that it has been telegraphed in the Live, Die, Kill section.
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1. Octavarium - DT's latter day masterpiece.
2. A Change of Seasons - Their classic epic that got improved on with Octavarium.. unbelievable.
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Impressive, versatile storytelling. A bit all over the place, but never boring.
4. The Count of Tuscany - I don't consider it a pure 'epic' but I guess it qualifies. Especially the instrumental sections and the outro are outstanding.
5. In the Presence of Enemies - Part 1 is a highlight, part 2 has grown on me over time.
6. Illumination Theory - Doesn't feel quite as 'authentic' as the others. It sure has great moments though. The orchestral section was amazing the first couple of times.. not so much anymore.
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It sometimes feels weird to read posts criticizing IT as disjointed, and then praising ACOS at the same time. :lol
Perhaps it's because ACOS doesn't have a 4-minute ambient/orchestral break that comes out of nowhere and destroys all the momentum?
Yeah, that section reminds me of a movie soundtrack. Wasn't I just listening to a prog metal band? All of a sudden it's chick flick music. ???
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1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
I don't think of this as an "epic" but more as a collection of songs that are all related to each other, unified by the lyrical topic along with a few reprises and such. Still, I think the writing here is on a different level than most of the modern-era stuff.
2. A Change Of Seasons
Well crafted musically, pretty powerful lyrically, but the production is...not good. Especially the drums.
3. The Count of Tuscany
I'd prefer that the swell section be about 2 or 3 minutes shorter "sucking on his pipe/making me uptight" -nuff said.
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
I really love the first half. The second half kinda loses me when the "dark master" stuff gets going. But musically I think this whole thing is pretty tight and well-crafted.
***gaping bottomless chasm***
5. Octavarium
If I could make it past the intro before falling asleep, I guess I would ask one question "What the fuck is this song about? :lol It's OK musically with some pretty cool riffs and decent melodies, but a lot of the lyrics are either nonsensical or indecipherable in terms of message.
6. Illumination Theory - I tried really hard, but I just don't like it. The orchestra thing just doesn't work for me. I think it would have been fine if it were the opening or closing section of the song, but sticking it in the middle like that? I had to load the song into my DAW and surgically remove it in order to make the song listenable. The last 5 or so minutes of it are awesome, though.
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1) Six Degrees
2) Octavarium
3) Illumination Theory
4) A Change of Seasons
5) Count of Tuscany
6) In the Presence of Enemies
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1) Illumination Theory - very ambitious lyrical content, ambient and orchestra section doesn't bother me; it's actually the perfect section to listen to when you're reflecting while on a long commute, well the whole music is reflective actually without being forced to become an intellectual mess.
2) Octavarium - just like IT, only a notch lower because it quite overcomplicates itself by establishing itself in a pseudo-concept album, with all the "surrender, trust, faith and desire" and "nightmare cinema show" parts
3) A Change of Seasons - impressive movements, very enjoyable to listen by its parts, but can be jarring to listen to as a whole because of the lyrics that are pretty personal.
4) Six Degrees - same with ACOS, only a notch lower because it's too long for its own sake; the latter movements (reprise and losing time / grand finale) sound rushed and forcefully ended that it looks like the band suddenly ran out of lyrical ideas.
5) Count of Tuscany - really awesome song structure (that could actually be compared to the likes of IT) let down by its lyrics; I couldn't connect with it emotionally, and I do think it's ridiculous.
6) In the Presence of Enemies - Not a fan of the lyrics; better than TCOT's, but it's not the main reason why it's the last. The whole song sounds really forced to be "dark" that it sounds too cheesy for me. The unisons add to the forcefulness. The evil-sounding themes are not my cup of tea, but the first part sounds good though.
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1. A Change of Seasons - Probably my favorite DT song. Absolutely love it. A lot of emotion in here.
2. Octavarium - The way this song builds up is utter perfection.
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Not much to say here. Great stuff though
4. The Count of Tuscany - I think the music is brilliant here and downright chilling, but those lyrics man... Love this song regardless.
5. Illumination Theory - This song is great, but there's something that holds it back for me that I can't really specify. I guess if I had to call it something it'd be how the song flows. I also don't really care much for the very end portion (not sure what the fan's call it). The song has great vocals and lyrics and the beginning of the song is awesome.
6. In the Presence of Enemies - I place this last because of part 2. I LOVE part 1. It would be in IT's spot if it was just part 1, but that wouldn't make an epic lol. I mean part 2 is fine... until The Reckoning. The Reckoning bogs this song down for me soooo much it hurts. I really don't like this section and it feels like it plays for an eternity.
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4) Six Degrees - same with ACOS, only a notch lower because it's too long for its own sake; the latter movements (reprise and losing time / grand finale) sound rushed and forcefully ended that it looks like the band suddenly ran out of lyrical ideas.
Oh yeah, that's something I couldn't remember of about 6DOIT. Every chapter has perfect lyrics, but Losing Time/Grand Finale doesn't sound that grand.
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5. Octavarium
If I could make it past the intro before falling asleep, I guess I would ask one question "What the fuck is this song about? :lol It's OK musically with some pretty cool riffs and decent melodies, but a lot of the lyrics are either nonsensical or indecipherable in terms of message.
:lol I love the Octavarium quote above.
I'm listening to it right now because of all the high marks it gets in this thread...and it starts out okay...a little slow but honestly up until the moog solo by JR...it is just too much foreplay. Stop with the dry humping and yank the zipper down already!
The music behind MP's lyrics is awesome but the call outs to band influences is just jarring and nonsensical. Then the instrumental kicks in and you think, "That's what I'm on about." Oh, and that unison :metal Then the big build up with JLB delivering lines through gritted teeth and flying spittal culminates in epic screams. I'm just about to...about to...to...
Holy shit their injecting me with thorazine! Noooooooo, the razor's too dull. Don't cut me Mommy. Please :sad:
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1. Illumination Theory
2. Octavarium
3. The Count of Tuscany
4. A Change Of Seasons
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
6. In The Presence Of Enemies
next time, ask something difficult :rollin
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The only one of these I don't love is In the Presence of Enemies, and that's entirely because of the second part. Hard to rank them.
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A Change Of Seasons
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
The Count Of Tuscany
In The Presence Of Enemies
Illumination Theory
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This is extremely difficult for me to rank. Everything except for 8VM moves a lot.
-Octavarium: I enjoy every second of this song. I've loved it since I heard it, and it was the first DT epic I heard. The structure seems natural, and each movement feels like a meaningful addition to the song
- In The Presence of Enemies: ITPOE1 is a very strong opener, and ITPOE2 a strong closer. Besides just enjoying the song, it has an interesting theme. I also love it when people chant things
- Illumination Theory: Was an amazing live song, and the most impressed I was vocally with James on DT12. Great riffs, and beautiful orchestral and piano section. If only I enjoyed the sound of windchimes and birds a little more (I understand why it's there, though)
- Six Degress of Inner Turbulence: I adore four parts, like two of them, and can't stand another two
- A Change of Seasons: great song, but I wore it out a bit. While I still listen to it, and get occasional chills, it doesn't stand out as much as epics mentioned above
- The Count of Tuscany: If only it was about something more captivating than some weird guy who owns wine and tells stories. Interesting theme, but not in the way I'd prefer. great melodies and riffs, but I can't get around the lyrical content. It's a strong song, but not as strong as the others