Not MP v MM again I hear you say. This is different, I hope

[slycordinator]

...MP had about 20 years of playing with DT, he knew the songs, maybe from time to time he had to remember some songs.
And on the other side, all that MM has been doing these ~3 years is learning, learning and learning.

Here you can see him more comfortable (IMO). And i think that is because he was more acquainted with the song. (Maybe, is a theory).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1-8j9zhdOE

Maybe is just a matter of time for him to feel more comfortable playing DT.

Exactly this....MM is still learning, you can see it on his face at times that he still has to really concentrate at certain moments to play the parts.  MP is known for having an amazing musical memory and had been playing some of the DT songs for years and years, making them second nature and allowing him more freedom to interact with the crowd, etc...

You can tell this is the case by watching MM play songs off of ADTOE or DT12, songs that he wrote the parts to and recorded and has played a lot.  He seems more free to interact with the crowd, change up fills here and there, and be overall more charismatic because he doesn't have to focus as much on executing parts.

Also, remember that before he auditioned they more or less told him that what they were looking for is someone playing the parts exactly as they are. So perhaps he took that to heart with the whole learning process...

[bosk1]

Also, remember that before he auditioned they more or less told him that what they were looking for is someone playing the parts exactly as they are.

No they did not.  I think you are misremembering.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I don't know, I disagree. I think a lot of it just stems from him being buried under all that equipment. I was just watching this video, and you just see Marco's limbs flying away, and that makes for a much more engaging sight.

You didn't see MM's limbs flying away during his solo on the ADToE tour?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wou5tOt2vp8

Lol It remains a mystery what people actually want from the guy with regard to this topic.

[erwinrafael]

I don't know, I disagree. I think a lot of it just stems from him being buried under all that equipment. I was just watching this video, and you just see Marco's limbs flying away, and that makes for a much more engaging sight.

You didn't see MM's limbs flying away during his solo on the ADToE tour?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wou5tOt2vp8

Lol It remains a mystery what people actually want from the guy with regard to this topic.

I think they actually want him to leave. And we will not run out of threads like this this until MM leaves DT. (and yes, MM fans and DT fans who like MM, I have observed, never start these discussions)

[slycordinator]

Also, remember that before he auditioned they more or less told him that what they were looking for is someone playing the parts exactly as they are.

No they did not.  I think you are misremembering.

I certainly remember it mentioned in the documentary that they sort of disliked the changes that were made in the playing to the songs by some of the drummers, said (Jordan, specifically) that the fans expected things played a certain way (which really implies that they as a band wanted that), and either in the doc or in an interview stated that MM got into contact with the band prior to auditions to ask what they were looking for and was told that they wanted it stuck to the recording.

[bosk1]

Also, remember that before he auditioned they more or less told him that what they were looking for is someone playing the parts exactly as they are.

No they did not.  I think you are misremembering.

I certainly remember it mentioned in the documentary that they sort of disliked the changes that were made in the playing to the songs by some of the drummers, said (Jordan, specifically) that the fans expected things played a certain way (which really implies that they as a band wanted that), and either in the doc or in an interview stated that MM got into contact with the band prior to auditions to ask what they were looking for and was told that they wanted it stuck to the recording.

Yes, that is correct.  They did want the renditions to be true to the originals, without too much deviation, but that is not the same as "playing the parts exactly as they are."  Mangini interpreted the parts during the audition rather than playing them exactly note for note and hit for hit.  Jordan and John even say so during the documentary.  But he did not stray too far.  Bottom line is, they expected (and, I am sure, wanted) some degree of interpretation.  They just didn't want it to go too far afield.  And I suspect that the line of what is "too far" was entirely subjective and not easy to put into words.  It seemed like Thomas and Virgil, for example, went just a bit farther than what the band were comfortable with.  Mike and Marco interpreted the parts, but did so within a framework that the band felt comfortable.  But I don't think any of the seven drummers came in and tried to mimic the parts exactly.

As for the last sentence, I'm not sure where you got that from, so it's hard to comment on it.

[Jaq]

I never really saw how hamming it up, standing up and hitting the crashes on occasion qualified as stage presence myself. MP sure THOUGHT he was one of the faces of the band, but he always came off to me like the class clown in the back of a photo of the entire class rather than the center of attention.

[BlobVanDam]

It wasn't "hamming it up", and it was definitely a good stage presence.

[Dark Castle]

It wasn't "hamming it up", and it was definitely a good stage presence.

It's all opinion mate.

[adastra]

MM  is propably far better drummer than MP,  but I really have to go with MP as my favourite.
It is because of his stage presence and his dedication to DT !

I don't have anything against MM and I'm happy that DT is happy with their Drummer decision!  I just always thought that MP lived and breathed Dream Theater, and was irreplaceable.

... And it doesn't really help that ADTOE and DT12  are propably one of my least liked DT albums.   It is not MM's  fault of course..  But I've been starting to lose interest ( But not enough to stay away from DTF )

[Invisible]

Also, remember that before he auditioned they more or less told him that what they were looking for is someone playing the parts exactly as they are.

No they did not.  I think you are misremembering.

He's not, I saw yesterday an interview of the ADTOE tour where Petrucci said something along the lines that he wanted the parts to be played as recorded, I can't seem to find the link as I was hopping from link to link on YouTube and sort of bumped with the interview  . The interviewer was a blonde woman from a music channel I think, but that's all I can remember  . I will try to find it.

As for the stage presence, I think, at least on the DVDs(I haven't seen that much footage on bootlegs) MP clearly has something different for me, he's always engaging the audience, playing with the sticks and things like that, but I also think it's understandable that MM doesn't play that way. It's different when you've been a band member and kind of the PR of the band to be confident enough to pull those kind of antics, MM is "the new guy" so you can't expect, even if he had that in him, to do the same.

All in all, I think as far as stage presence goes MM is perfect the way he is, just because he's not MP it doesn't mean he's not awesome in his own way, and I think the difference between the two of them is simply the fact that they are two different persons and nothing else. I like them both and I don't think one is better than the other, even on the technical side, they're just different and that's it.

[Invisible]

Found it  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpU4t_N2SM

At the 4:10 mark, the interviewer asks "do want (the drummer) to put their own twist to music" and JP says "it's important that the parts are played as recorded".

[erwinrafael]

Found it  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpU4t_N2SM

At the 4:10 mark, the interviewer asks "do want (the drummer) to put their own twist to music" and JP says "it's important that the parts are played as recorded".

JP is pretty clear in that video. No ifs and buts.

[bosk1]

Found it  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpU4t_N2SM

At the 4:10 mark, the interviewer asks "do want (the drummer) to put their own twist to music" and JP says "it's important that the parts are played as recorded".

That is certainly stronger language than I have heard him use before.  But that still isn't the same as saying they wanted the parts played "exactly" the same as Portnoy played them.  If you listen to the rest of his answer, he goes on to say that Mangini has been able to add his own flair to the songs, but does so without majorly changing the feel of the songs.  This latter part is the key.  There is some freedom to add Mangini's own style, but not at the expense of the songs having a different feel to them.  This is consistent with what John and Jordan actually say during the documentary where they say that they liked that Mangini emphasized different things in his parts based on him listening to what each of the other musicians were actually doing.

[slycordinator]

I didn't say that they told him to pay it exactly as written/recorded. I said that he was more or less told this. You do realize that more or less is an idiom that means "to a certain extent", right?

[Stoneyman]

For me the perceived "missing" dynamic is that MM's drums arent nearly as loud in the set as MP's were.  MP was LOUD and right up there with JP.  When I watch the latest dvd, I can tell that JP's guitar is too loud in the mix and the drums arent nearly loud enough.  MP's drum and JP's guitar were front and center.  Now its just JP, but you can finally here the other guys for a change LOL.  I kinda prefer that.

I think the other thing that I notice (IN MY OPINION) is that MM's drums dont sound as nice.  The cymbals sound kinda "cheap" even though Im sure they are high quality.  Then again, maybe they just arent loud enough.  LOL

MM is a monster player.  Im glad he is in DT.

[Invisible]

Found it  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpU4t_N2SM

At the 4:10 mark, the interviewer asks "do want (the drummer) to put their own twist to music" and JP says "it's important that the parts are played as recorded".

That is certainly stronger language than I have heard him use before.  But that still isn't the same as saying they wanted the parts played "exactly" the same as Portnoy played them.  If you listen to the rest of his answer, he goes on to say that Mangini has been able to add his own flair to the songs, but does so without majorly changing the feel of the songs.  This latter part is the key.  There is some freedom to add Mangini's own style, but not at the expense of the songs having a different feel to them.  This is consistent with what John and Jordan actually say during the documentary where they say that they liked that Mangini emphasized different things in his parts based on him listening to what each of the other musicians were actually doing.

I don't think anyone said "exactly", but I think the band expect MM to play as close as possible, I just listened to The Great Debate live on the 2011 tour from the Christmas release, with MM on the drums and they aren't exactly the same, but, as you said, they respect the feel of the song. None of the guys play their instruments or sing exactly as recorded(they are humans after all), so I doubt they expect MM to do so.

Listening to DT12 today for the third time(kind of funny how it went from "this sucks" to "Meh" to "this is really good!" with each listen ), and I kind of like this new drum sound, sometimes I felt with MP they were a bit too loud(on the other hand, it was nice to have a band that doesn't bury them in the mix like the ones I used to listen back then). All in all, I think this album sounds fine, I like the infamous snare and I can hear Mangini very well without being in my face like in the MP days. A little less JP and a little more JR and JM and it would be perfect imho.

[LTE3]

I am not going to go into the drumming pros and cons as this has been done to death, but this is something I felt in watching the new dvd.

I feel that the band has lost a lot in the charisma dept. MM had loads of this or stage presence or whatever you want to call it. He really was the best performer in the band in my opinion - and his backing vocals were not bad either.

I wonder what others think of this.

I agree 100%, James is trying harder these days but still comes across as a cold fish. John Myung is John Myung, Jordan is Jordan , and John Petrucci even seem less animated. MM seems so focused on his drum parts he does not have time to fuck around besides the occasion mount wide open look. What can I say the band had changed for good and lost their front man.