Is Jordan Rudess Under-used in DT

[Setlist Scotty]

...or they could...I dunno...maybe just keep doing it the way they are doing it, and let people continue to react like this:

I'll agree to disagree, but c'mon Bosk - I gave a very valid, reasonable and respectable response to 425, and you're just dismissing it with that comment. Besides, Janick doesn't do much other than dance on stage, so why not give him basic keyboard parts to play on guitar and allow Adrian to play all his guitar solos on the material from the first 7 albums? 

And I'm curious to know what your thoughts were of QR bringing Jason Ames along to prop Tater up? By your reasoning, that was a great move, especially to mask Tater's pitiful vocals. 

[Prog Snob]

...or they could...I dunno...maybe just keep doing it the way they are doing it, and let people continue to react like this:

[Jaffa]

@Setlist Scotty: I just don't understand why any of this would affect your enjoyment of the show.  I mean, don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but... I just don't get it.  To go on the Iron Maiden example, you say they should have one of the three guitarists play the part instead of the bass tech.  But if the part is being played either way, then what difference does it actually make? 

[bosk1]

...or they could...I dunno...maybe just keep doing it the way they are doing it, and let people continue to react like this:

I'll agree to disagree, but c'mon Bosk - I gave a very valid, reasonable and respectable response to 425, and you're just dismissing it with that comment.

Well, of course I am just dismissing it.  We're friends, so I'd rather just state my opinion with a bit of humor rather than write a treatise arguing with you about it, which would be both pointless and unfunny.

Besides, Janick doesn't do much other than dance on stage, so why not give him basic keyboard parts to play on guitar and allow Adrian to play all his guitar solos on the material from the first 7 albums? 

Well, because, in my opinion:
1.  The way they are doing it now with what's-his-name-playing keyboards works well, and has for some time now.  And: 
2.  Although I used to be of the mindset that having three guitar players onstage is just silly and is a bit of overkill, Maiden is one of the primary bands that caused me to reconsider and change my opinion on that.  Seems like the majority of metal bands layer a bunch of guitar parts in their songs.  In a live setting, some of that gets lost.  Not that they sound bad live.  But Maiden is an example of a band that sounded great with two guitars, but sounds even better and better captures that layering with three. 

And I'm curious to know what your thoughts were of QR bringing Jason Ames along to prop Tater up? By your reasoning, that was a great move, especially to mask Tater's pitiful vocals. 

Well, I know you are half jesting, but you are also putting words in my mouth.  My logic is to add a touring musician if there is a good reason to do so and it makes the music sound better.  QR had bigger problems.  Did adding Ames help?  Well, yeah, I guess.  I mean, layering keyboard, guitar, and added vocals did make them sound better than they otherwise would have.  But the bigger problem is that their singer sounded like crap and they were playing a lot of crappy songs.  And there were some specific problems with having Ames himself, such as:
1.  Ames just isn't that great a player/singer
2.  His primary role was to prop up rather than to enhance
3.  The weird family relationship just made the whole thing creepy and in poor taste

So, no, "my logic" in no way extends to argue that Ames was a good decision for Queensryche.  I'm not sure why you would suggest that.  But in other cases, having extra personnel onstage for a tour makes great sense to me.

Maiden having a third guitarist and hidden keyboardist for select keyboard parts?  Sure.
Floyd having...a ton of extra folks?  Yeah.  Their huge layered sound and huge stage show that they are known for makes it work and work well.
Vai having 3 guitarists?  Yup.
TA having Gildenlowe?  It not only works, but I think they NEED a fifth player to pull off their stuff live.  As it is, they frequently have him doing two or three (if you count singing) things at the same time! 
Neal Morse having 50 keyboardists/guitarists?  Why not?
Etc., etc., etc. 

It definitely isn't necessary for every band, and probably does detract from what is going on with some.  But in plenty of cases, it's a great choice. 

But I will also add that we're getting pretty far afield from the topic now.

[wolfking]

Besides, Janick doesn't do much other than dance on stage, so why not give him basic keyboard parts to play on guitar and allow Adrian to play all his guitar solos on the material from the first 7 albums? 

WTF?  You know he plays guitar too.

Jannick takes a couple of Adrian's solo spots because the band doesn't play many 90's songs and they want to share the solo between the three of them as much as they can.

[Grizz]

Where would JR play rhythm guitar, exactly? I mean, there's not a moment in DT's music, ever, that I've seen JR stand there and do nothing, if he's not playing keyboard leads and solos, then I see him either playing atmosphere keyboard or doing something like the snarling pig thing to accentuate the guitar tone. He's always busy when he's up there.

Live, you've never seen him standing around pumping one arm? I think that often they fill backup guitar gaps with new keyboard parts (see: Home 2010).

What about the beginning of The Count of Tuscany?  Do you feel ripped off that JP cannot keep playing the acoustic intro once his electric solo comes in?

as far as I'm concerned, JR could play the acoustic part on his keys so that JP could play the electric. In fact, the harpejji that JR had touted for some time (but I don't think has ever taken on the road) would be perfect for this situation. So yes, I do feel ripped off when they do this.

You do know that there is synth behind JP during the solo, right?

[TheGreatPretender]

Live, you've never seen him standing around pumping one arm? I think that often they fill backup guitar gaps with new keyboard parts (see: Home 2010).

I guess I never really noticed. But still, it wouldn't be for very long, it's not like JR ever has 3 minute gaps where he's not doing anything. Anything less, it'd be pointless for him to pick up a guitar and play rhythm parts, especially considering that during solos, there's still usually something going on with the keyboards.

[davidolson22]

It'd be nice if he wrote lyrics, but I think the main problem is he's often very low in the mix on albums. There are some songs on CS and Train of Thought where I'd swear there are no synths at all.

[Setlist Scotty]

@Setlist Scotty: I just don't understand why any of this would affect your enjoyment of the show.  I mean, don't get me wrong, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but... I just don't get it.  To go on the Iron Maiden example, you say they should have one of the three guitarists play the part instead of the bass tech.  But if the part is being played either way, then what difference does it actually make?

Essentially, to me it's as if they are cheating or being lazy by using extra people. And if (as in the case of Maiden) they have enough people in the band to cover the necessary parts, why on earth is it necessary to bring even more people into the picture?

Taking it to the extreme to make a point, if it's OK to add a bunch of extra people to make sure all the parts are played, then why worry about having all the actual band members performing? As long as their parts are parts are played, it shouldn't matter. But it does matter to most people, as it should.

Perhaps it's just because of the way Rush handled the matter, and being that they were the first band to be my favorite (and still are a close second behind Dream Theater), perhaps my viewpoint is skewed due to their example. But again, if Rush can manage with 3 people (and still put on a great show), then why do other bands with 4, 5 or 6 actual band members need to add touring members?

Well, of course I am just dismissing it.  We're friends, so I'd rather just state my opinion with a bit of humor rather than write a treatise arguing with you about it, which would be both pointless and unfunny.

Fair enough. I guess the fact that I was answering 425's question and got a dismissive response from you instead of anything from him just irritated me a bit. No harm, no foul.     

And I'm curious to know what your thoughts were of QR bringing Jason Ames along to prop Tater up? By your reasoning, that was a great move, especially to mask Tater's pitiful vocals. 

Well, I know you are half jesting, but you are also putting words in my mouth.  My logic is to add a touring musician if there is a good reason to do so and it makes the music sound better.  QR had bigger problems.  Did adding Ames help?  Well, yeah, I guess.  I mean, layering keyboard, guitar, and added vocals did make them sound better than they otherwise would have.  But the bigger problem is that their singer sounded like crap and they were playing a lot of crappy songs.  And there were some specific problems with having Ames himself, such as:
1.  Ames just isn't that great a player/singer
2.  His primary role was to prop up rather than to enhance
3.  The weird family relationship just made the whole thing creepy and in poor taste

So, no, "my logic" in no way extends to argue that Ames was a good decision for Queensryche.  I'm not sure why you would suggest that.  But in other cases, having extra personnel onstage for a tour makes great sense to me.

While it was partly in jest, I did bring that up because to on the surface (dismissing all the behind the scenes crap), it is the same scenario as all the others you cite. And since he did help improve their sound (however minimally), then theoretically, he should have your blessing just as in all the other cases. 

Vai having 3 guitarists?  Yup.
<snip>
Neal Morse having 50 keyboardists/guitarists?  Why not?

I might be opening up a whole other can of worms by addressing this, but to me, there's a big difference between a backing band and a proper band. Honestly, I don't have a problem with it for solo artists. Why? Because they are solo artists! A solo artist is not a band, and in many instances, they have a bunch of nameless studio/session musicians recording the music, while they have others performing it live. Musicians in these backing bands come and go, and generally are not crucial. So if Neal wants to have a 50 piece band, no problem. My issue is with proper bands that have established members that fulfill all the performing roles in the band.

And again with regards to Daniel and TA, make the guy a full member! If he brings that much to the table live, what's the problem with allowing him to do the same in the studio? While I love TA, I think adding Daniel as a full-blown member could improve their output even more. If it's not important to have him in the proper band, for argument's sake, why not just hire a no-name musician who's equally as good?

Besides, Janick doesn't do much other than dance on stage, so why not give him basic keyboard parts to play on guitar and allow Adrian to play all his guitar solos on the material from the first 7 albums? 

WTF?  You know he plays guitar too.

Jannick takes a couple of Adrian's solo spots because the band doesn't play many 90's songs and they want to share the solo between the three of them as much as they can.

Oh I know he plays guitar, but I agree with many fans that feel he's essentially a waste of space with Adrian back in the band. And I'm sorry, but Adrian's solo spots belong to Adrian, so seeing Janick play many of them really irritates me and strikes me as unfair to Adrian, even tho he apparently agreed to allow it. Why not have Janick play some of Dave's solos instead, if it's so important to divide the solos equally among the 3 of them?

[Jaffa]

Essentially, to me it's as if they are cheating or being lazy by using extra people. And if (as in the case of Maiden) they have enough people in the band to cover the necessary parts, why on earth is it necessary to bring even more people into the picture?

Fair enough, I suppose.  Thanks for responding.   

[BlobVanDam]

Rather than type up a response, I'm just going to say I agree with everything Scotty has said in this thread, and I don't know what people aren't getting.
I really don't want to see other people touring with DT.

[KevShmev]

I'm with bosk1 here.  If you don't like them using the tapes on the intros of Metropolis, ACOS, etc., okay, but to feel ripped off?  Wow.

Also, how do you say to someone, "Okay, we want you to be a part of the band, but we don't want your input when it comes to songwriting?"  Gildenlow is a good example.  Transatlantic's writing situation is already perfect, so throwing another chef into the mix, per se, would only mess with perfection.  No need for that. 

Scotty, you said the other day in the Surrounded '07 thread that if people want to hear songs DT changes live the original way, then they can listen to the studio albums.  Well, if you want to hear bands play the songs with only the official band members playing, as opposed to live when they might bring along an extra touring member, then you can also listen to the studio albums.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm with bosk1 here.  If you don't like them using the tapes on the intros of Metropolis, ACOS, etc., okay, but to feel ripped off?  Wow.

Also, how do you say to someone, "Okay, we want you to be a part of the band, but we don't want your input when it comes to songwriting?"  Gildenlow is a good example.  Transatlantic's writing situation is already perfect, so throwing another chef into the mix, per se, would only mess with perfection.  No need for that. 

Scotty, you said the other day in the Surrounded '07 thread that if people want to hear songs DT changes live the original way, then they can listen to the studio albums.  Well, if you want to hear bands play the songs with only the official band members playing, as opposed to live when they might bring along an extra touring member, then you can also listen to the studio albums.

My problem with the idea of bringing an outside on stage at concerts is that it would change the stage dynamic and the band dynamic greatly. First of all, oftentimes DT is a bit crowded on stage as it is, when performing on smaller stages. Second, as it stands right now, everyone's got their role in the band, their own instrument and what they do. They're all members of the band and good friends who record in the studio together and then play it live.
And yeah, to bring someone on stage for a song or two is okay, if they want to do it with Theresa or Jay Beckenstein, or whatever, for a one off show. But to say, for a whole tour, "This guy's not a part of the band, but he'll be playing with us all through the tour, so just pretend like he is a part of the band," would totally mess up the dynamic, especially considering that it's completely unnecessary.
And yeah, maybe it works for certain bands, but what works for Transatlantic, or whoever else, doesn't necessarily mean it's right for Dream Theater. And in this case, I think bringing another guitar player just to layer the sound a little while on tour is extremely unnecessary.

[KevShmev]

Agreed.  And to clarify, I don't think there is any need for DT to bring along an extra member.  I just don't see a problem with the many bands who, for various reasons, have done it.

[TheGreatPretender]

Agreed.  And to clarify, I don't think there is any need for DT to bring along an extra member.  I just don't see a problem with the many bands who, for various reasons, have done it.

Okay, makese sense. Like I said every band is different. I also think it makes a huge difference whether the band has been doing it right from the very beginning of its existence, or whether they're 20+ years into their career and then suddenly said, "Hey, we decided to get this outsider dude to play guitar with us."

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I agree on that even if DT can't recreate everything on their albums live they still don't need a touring musician because I have no problem with them using backtracks BUT the whole argument that a band is cheating or being lazy because they use touring muscians to support them is just ridiculous in every way.

[Prog Snob]

I'm with bosk1 here.  If you don't like them using the tapes on the intros of Metropolis, ACOS, etc., okay, but to feel ripped off?  Wow.

Also, how do you say to someone, "Okay, we want you to be a part of the band, but we don't want your input when it comes to songwriting?"  Gildenlow is a good example.  Transatlantic's writing situation is already perfect, so throwing another chef into the mix, per se, would only mess with perfection.  No need for that. 

Scotty, you said the other day in the Surrounded '07 thread that if people want to hear songs DT changes live the original way, then they can listen to the studio albums.  Well, if you want to hear bands play the songs with only the official band members playing, as opposed to live when they might bring along an extra touring member, then you can also listen to the studio albums.

I see no issue with feeling "ripped off." Imagine you go to see DT and they are about to play A Change Of Seasons, but the whole clean intro is just a tape in the background until the first heavy riff comes in. They always irritated me.  I know it's trivial but maybe that's what makes me a snob. 

[425]

Use the guitar synths like they did on Somewhere on Tour. Having 3 guitarists in the band, there's no reason why one of them couldn't do that, especially considering the fact that only the last 4 albums actually feature 3 individual guitarists.

Besides, if Michael Kenney is Steve's bass tech, shouldn't he be worrying about Steve's basses and his rig during the show instead of playing keyboards?   

But they have synth parts on all the albums since 1988. There are synths present on the last four albums, the ones that often have three important guitar parts. What would you have them do then, with Adrian, Dave and Janick all being needed at that time as guitarists? Sure, making Janick, who is a guitarist of the caliber to play in Iron Maiden and a full songwriting member of the band since 1990, play the synths onstage would work for the songs from Seventh Son. But if they played a reunion-era song with synth parts, then they'd have to figure something else out. And that something else would be probably the same solution that they have been, in reality, using since 1988: Michael Kenney playing the synth parts.

I'm not sure precisely what the dynamics of Kenney's role in the show is, but I do know (from watching various documentaries; I believe it is at minimum mentioned in the documentary on the second DVD of En Vivo!) that Kenney is Steve's bass tech and he also plays keyboards backstage during the show. I believe he also says in that documentary that he does not know how to play keyboards in the sense of being able to write parts for them, but that he knows how to play anything the band needs him to play, which is always quite simple (Maiden's keyboard parts have always been background and are only very rarely part of the main melody of a song, I think they only play a major role in the front of the sound in Moonchild and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son the song).

Besides, Janick doesn't do much other than dance on stage, so why not give him basic keyboard parts to play on guitar and allow Adrian to play all his guitar solos on the material from the first 7 albums? 

WTF?  You know he plays guitar too.

Jannick takes a couple of Adrian's solo spots because the band doesn't play many 90's songs and they want to share the solo between the three of them as much as they can.

Oh I know he plays guitar, but I agree with many fans that feel he's essentially a waste of space with Adrian back in the band. And I'm sorry, but Adrian's solo spots belong to Adrian, so seeing Janick play many of them really irritates me and strikes me as unfair to Adrian, even tho he apparently agreed to allow it. Why not have Janick play some of Dave's solos instead, if it's so important to divide the solos equally among the 3 of them?

See, I COMPLETELY disagree with this. Janick has been a big part of the band's sound for over 20 years. His songwriting contributions are numerous and includes of the very best Iron Maiden songs of that time period (The Legacy, The Talisman, Ghost of the Navigator, Dream of Mirrors).

And, as wolfking said, Janick plays a few (only a few!) of Adrian's solos from the 80s because Maiden just doesn't play that much 90s material. AND, during the 9 years that he there and Adrian wasn't, Janick developed his own spin on many of the iconic 80s solos. He improvises on his solos a lot, but on his good nights, his Hallowed Be Thy Name solo blows Adrian's away. And I think it's really interesting how they turned the solos in The Trooper and The Evil That Men Do into unisons. The reason why he doesn't play Dave's solos is because he never played them before and therefore never developed his own spin on them. Dave plays Dave's solos best, while Janick has put a new and sometimes better twist on a lot of H's solos, which is why he plays some of them now.

[TAC]

Janick has been a big part of the band's sound for over 20 years. His songwriting contributions are numerous and includes of the very best Iron Maiden songs of that time period (The Legacy, The Talisman, Ghost of the Navigator, Dream of Mirrors).

And, as wolfking said, Janick plays a few (only a few!) of Adrian's solos from the 80s because Maiden just doesn't play that much 90s material. AND, during the 9 years that he there and Adrian wasn't, Janick developed his own spin on many of the iconic 80s solos. He improvises on his solos a lot, but on his good nights, his Hallowed Be Thy Name solo blows Adrian's away. And I think it's really interesting how they turned the solos in The Trooper and The Evil That Men Do into unisons. The reason why he doesn't play Dave's solos is because he never played them before and therefore never developed his own spin on them. Dave plays Dave's solos best, while Janick has put a new and sometimes better twist on a lot of H's solos, which is why he plays some of them now.

Very well presented.

[Ben_Jamin]

The problem with adding gildenlow to TA as a full member would mean they'd have to wait for his schedule to be free as well.

[Setlist Scotty]

What about the beginning of The Count of Tuscany?  Do you feel ripped off that JP cannot keep playing the acoustic intro once his electric solo comes in?

as far as I'm concerned, JR could play the acoustic part on his keys so that JP could play the electric. In fact, the harpejji that JR had touted for some time (but I don't think has ever taken on the road) would be perfect for this situation. So yes, I do feel ripped off when they do this.

You do know that there is synth behind JP during the solo, right?

I'm sure that Jordan would be able to manage just fine doing both. Even if he couldn't, I'm sure they could get James to play those keyboard parts, just as he helped Jordan out during the intro to Octavarium on the 2005-06 tour.

Also, how do you say to someone, "Okay, we want you to be a part of the band, but we don't want your input when it comes to songwriting?"  Gildenlow is a good example.  Transatlantic's writing situation is already perfect, so throwing another chef into the mix, per se, would only mess with perfection.  No need for that. 

While I've enjoyed most of TA's output, I wouldn't say that their writing situation is perfect. Especially with someone like Daniel, I'm sure that he could contribute a lot to the songwriting. I doubt it would be messing "with perfection".

Scotty, you said the other day in the Surrounded '07 thread that if people want to hear songs DT changes live the original way, then they can listen to the studio albums.  Well, if you want to hear bands play the songs with only the official band members playing, as opposed to live when they might bring along an extra touring member, then you can also listen to the studio albums.

LOL! 

If you don't like them using the tapes on the intros of Metropolis, ACOS, etc., okay, but to feel ripped off?  Wow.

Feeling "ripped off" might be an exaggeration, but certainly it's an irritation and it's unnecessary.

Use the guitar synths like they did on Somewhere on Tour. Having 3 guitarists in the band, there's no reason why one of them couldn't do that, especially considering the fact that only the last 4 albums actually feature 3 individual guitarists.

Besides, if Michael Kenney is Steve's bass tech, shouldn't he be worrying about Steve's basses and his rig during the show instead of playing keyboards?   

But they have synth parts on all the albums since 1988. There are synths present on the last four albums, the ones that often have three important guitar parts. What would you have them do then, with Adrian, Dave and Janick all being needed at that time as guitarists? Sure, making Janick, who is a guitarist of the caliber to play in Iron Maiden and a full songwriting member of the band since 1990, play the synths onstage would work for the songs from Seventh Son. But if they played a reunion-era song with synth parts, then they'd have to figure something else out. And that something else would be probably the same solution that they have been, in reality, using since 1988: Michael Kenney playing the synth parts.

Considering that Adrian and Dave are both "statues" on stage, why not have them do what's necessary on those songs using foot pedals? If Geddy can do it while singing, playing bass and keyboards, I'm sure one or both of them have the ability to do it while playing guitar.

Besides, Janick doesn't do much other than dance on stage, so why not give him basic keyboard parts to play on guitar and allow Adrian to play all his guitar solos on the material from the first 7 albums? 

WTF?  You know he plays guitar too.

Jannick takes a couple of Adrian's solo spots because the band doesn't play many 90's songs and they want to share the solo between the three of them as much as they can.

Oh I know he plays guitar, but I agree with many fans that feel he's essentially a waste of space with Adrian back in the band. And I'm sorry, but Adrian's solo spots belong to Adrian, so seeing Janick play many of them really irritates me and strikes me as unfair to Adrian, even tho he apparently agreed to allow it. Why not have Janick play some of Dave's solos instead, if it's so important to divide the solos equally among the 3 of them?

See, I COMPLETELY disagree with this. Janick has been a big part of the band's sound for over 20 years. His songwriting contributions are numerous and includes of the very best Iron Maiden songs of that time period (The Legacy, The Talisman, Ghost of the Navigator, Dream of Mirrors).

And, as wolfking said, Janick plays a few (only a few!) of Adrian's solos from the 80s because Maiden just doesn't play that much 90s material. AND, during the 9 years that he there and Adrian wasn't, Janick developed his own spin on many of the iconic 80s solos. He improvises on his solos a lot, but on his good nights, his Hallowed Be Thy Name solo blows Adrian's away. And I think it's really interesting how they turned the solos in The Trooper and The Evil That Men Do into unisons. The reason why he doesn't play Dave's solos is because he never played them before and therefore never developed his own spin on them. Dave plays Dave's solos best, while Janick has put a new and sometimes better twist on a lot of H's solos, which is why he plays some of them now.

Janick may be a big part of the band's sound for 20 years, but honestly, the best stuff Maiden did was in the 80s before he was there, and Adrian was key to a lot of it. Regarding Janick doing Adrian's solos, I fully disagree, as do many of Maiden's fans. Just as you say that Dave plays Dave's solos best, the same is true of Adrian's - Adrian plays Adrian's solos best.    Janick may have "developed his own spin on many of the iconic 80s solos" but that doesn't mean they're better - in the vast majority of the cases, they're much worse. The same could be said for the unison solos you cited. And as for him not playing Dave's solos, I'd wager he could do just as much harm good for Dave's solos as for Adrian's, if not more. If he improvises most of his solos, it shouldn't take much effort for him to come up with something to take the place of Dave's solos. Or Janick could just serve as a rhythm guitarist during the classic 80s material, as would be most appropriate.

The problem with adding gildenlow to TA as a full member would mean they'd have to wait for his schedule to be free as well.

If Daniel can create a window in his schedule for touring with TA, I'm sure he can find the time needed to be with all of them in the studio, which is usually the same or less than the amount of time spent on the road.

[Lowdz]

Also, is a very mediocre band that doesn't deserve a lot of the praise they get.

This is absolute bullshit.

Another believer of the propoganda. Get him Kade! 

[425]

Considering that Adrian and Dave are both "statues" on stage, why not have them do what's necessary on those songs using foot pedals? If Geddy can do it while singing, playing bass and keyboards, I'm sure one or both of them have the ability to do it while playing guitar.

Neither one of them is a statue. Dave moves around a lot, and Adrian, though he is the most stationary of the band, still walks around from time to time, particularly towards and away from the microphone.

Really, what it comes down to is that clearly they don't want to do that. They've been using the current system for 25 years and I really don't see what the problem is with it. The music is being played live, in any case, in a way that doesn't change the band's performance style or detract from their live show, which is the most important thing.

Janick may be a big part of the band's sound for 20 years, but honestly, the best stuff Maiden did was in the 80s before he was there, and Adrian was key to a lot of it. Regarding Janick doing Adrian's solos, I fully disagree, as do many of Maiden's fans. Just as you say that Dave plays Dave's solos best, the same is true of Adrian's - Adrian plays Adrian's solos best.    Janick may have "developed his own spin on many of the iconic 80s solos" but that doesn't mean they're better - in the vast majority of the cases, they're much worse. The same could be said for the unison solos you cited. And as for him not playing Dave's solos, I'd wager he could do just as much harm good for Dave's solos as for Adrian's, if not more. If he improvises most of his solos, it shouldn't take much effort for him to come up with something to take the place of Dave's solos. Or Janick could just serve as a rhythm guitarist during the classic 80s material, as would be most appropriate.

I completely disagree on all counts. Maiden's best album is certainly The Final Frontier, with A Matter of Life and Death and Brave New World rounding out my personal top 3.

With regards to solos, whenever I want to hear a live performance of Hallowed Be Thy Name, I will ALWAYS reach for a post 1990 show because I want to hear the Janick solo. The Adrian solo typically is just "there" to me, whereas almost all Janick performances take that song to new heights with a solo that captures the frantic mood of that section. Occasionally, Janick will play a solo that is worse than the original, but I think in most cases they've given him solos that he's enhanced or at least done consistently well on. And I really don't understand how the unison solos could be seen as worse – at worst, I could see someone being ambivalent towards them. But to me, I enjoy hearing both guitarists play the same solo at the same time but providing slightly different takes on it.

Again, the thing with Dave's solos is that Janick hadn't spent the last nine years playing them. When I said he improvises most of his solos, I did not literally mean that he comes up with them on the spot. He plays the written solo but changes parts of it spontaneously, which I only said as an explanation for why quality of his performances can vary. In the end, there's simply no reason for Janick to play Dave solos, but there's plenty of reason for him to play Adrian solos, since he did for a very long period of time.

And I don't think it's appropriate at all to completely punt Janick to the background during 80s material. That's the majority of their sets, and Janick has been a full guitarist in the band for 23 years. He played all of Adrian's parts during the 9 years that Adrian was out the band (for those of you counting at home, 9 years is precisely the length of Adrian's first stint with the band. At what point is Janick no longer "that replacement guy"?). So Adrian decides to come back, and you say what to Janick? "Hey, we want you to stay on, but we're going to massively decrease your role in the band"? No, I'm personally quite glad that Steve decided to make room for three axes onstage.

[bosk1]

^Well said.  But, again, we're getting WAY off topic now.  Bring it back, please.

[wolfking]

Also, one more thing, Jannick doesn't play Dave's solos because Dave is essentially the guitar sound of Iron Maiden, and no one has ever replaced him.  He has been there from the start (besides in like 76 when Steve fired him for a few weeks) and played on every release and stuck with the band through thick and thin.  I think people sometimes people forget him and Steve essentially created the band.

Sorry bosk, back on topic now.

[Ravenfoul]

No I don't think he's underused. I think he's doing exactly as much as he and the band wants him to do, for the kind of music they want to make and that there's nothing wrong with that. If anything I feel like manginis being underused.

[TheGreatPretender]

The thing is, I think he's doing PLENTY. I don't understand how JR can be considered underused and JM not.

[KevShmev]

Also, how do you say to someone, "Okay, we want you to be a part of the band, but we don't want your input when it comes to songwriting?"  Gildenlow is a good example.  Transatlantic's writing situation is already perfect, so throwing another chef into the mix, per se, would only mess with perfection.  No need for that. 

While I've enjoyed most of TA's output, I wouldn't say that their writing situation is perfect. Especially with someone like Daniel, I'm sure that he could contribute a lot to the songwriting. I doubt it would be messing "with perfection".

But their songwriting is already awesome as is, so why mess with it?  Not even taking into account Trewavas' contributions (since I remember they said he wrote some good stuff that ended up on The Whirlwind), in Roine Stolt and Neal Morse, you already have two prolific songwriters, and I am guessing they go in having so much good material that both guys probably have to chuck some good stuff, and if you add another prolific songwriter into the mix, it would be, in a manner of speaking, too many world class chefs in the same kitchen.  

Scotty, you said the other day in the Surrounded '07 thread that if people want to hear songs DT changes live the original way, then they can listen to the studio albums.  Well, if you want to hear bands play the songs with only the official band members playing, as opposed to live when they might bring along an extra touring member, then you can also listen to the studio albums.

LOL! 

If you don't like them using the tapes on the intros of Metropolis, ACOS, etc., okay, but to feel ripped off?  Wow.

Feeling "ripped off" might be an exaggeration, but certainly it's an irritation and it's unnecessary.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then.

I just remember seeing DT for the first time on the Awake tour, and when they opened with Pull Me Under, it was awesome how the intro from the CD played as the band took the stage in the dark, and then when the song kicks in full force just before the 1-minute mark, the stage lit up and the band started playing it live from that point.  That was awesome.

[NunoBadmintoncourt]

I can't believe this is even a question. Yeah, Dream Theater songs with piano and synth solos are such a rarity.

[Rodni Demental]

You guy's should recall I'm sure, but remember DT has already used a touring member before and to appease both sides to this, he ended up becoming proper 'band member' in the end anyway. My point is, the band is going to do what they feel is right at the time with how they want to express their music. I know a lot of people want to be 'entertained' at a show aswell, but I think it's clear that the music still comes first, (otherwise you'd probably have to bring into question why and what the reasons are for you attending a concert). And I think if extra unofficial members can bring something to the performance/expression/definition of the music then that's how it should be. In most cases I imagine it's about enriching and creating a fuller sound. I must admit I don't get this whole authenticity deal either. I don't think there is any reason an artist should have to prove they can perform everything they've written at once, especially when it's completely unreasonable or impossible in certain situations, not to mention the composing process is much different from a performance so why put such limitations or expectations on a band/artist?

I say let 'em do what they do best how they prefer. Imo if anything would take away from a performance, it would be the musicians not being comfortable with the expression of their sound and touring members can balance out anything that might otherwise sound incomplete. Not that DT even have this issue at the moment, but that's because they're comfortable in their performance environment.

[BlobVanDam]

You guy's should recall I'm sure, but remember DT has already used a touring member before and to appease both sides to this, he ended up becoming proper 'band member' in the end anyway.

That's not the same, since he was filling an existing role that had become vacant and needed to be filled to play their music, he was not an extra on top of what they already had, and was not performing the same role/instrument as anyone else in the band.

[TheGreatPretender]

You guy's should recall I'm sure, but remember DT has already used a touring member before and to appease both sides to this, he ended up becoming proper 'band member' in the end anyway.

That's not the same, since he was filling an existing role that had become vacant and needed to be filled to play their music, he was not an extra on top of what they already had, and was not performing the same role/instrument as anyone else in the band.

[Rodni Demental]

Yeah, it's a totally different yet similar scenario, I was correlating to performances from Dream Theater to relate an example to my point. Which is the players will do what they must to maintain the integrity of their creative expression and for all of the other examples where a band uses a touring member, I'm sure it works for them and it was chosen to be done that way for a reason (whether they HAVE to, such as the case of DT which is easy to understand, or if it's an artistic choice for physical, expressive or performance reasons which can be just as important), so I wouldn't want to change that.

And it's not like you'd shun a new player for not being the authentic creator of the music whether they're a touring member, or especially when the're filling the roll of someone who becomes absent. I mean DS was obviously a competent and essential touring member, things must have gone well enough that they were even comfortable getting him fully on board in the creative process later on aswell.

That being said, if another member became 'absent' I doubt DT would jump straight into a tour with an incomplete lineup like they did in the early 90s for Awake. Also, DT seem to be completely competent in playing everything they write in a live setting so I doubt they'd ever need a touring member let along get Jordan away from keyboard world, that place is one of the busiest parts of DT world as it is. 

[hefdaddy42]

Is JR under-used in DT?  No, he is used exactly as much as he and the band want him to be.

Should DT have another touring musician?  No, they have proven to be able to perform their music with their 5 members, no need to mess with that now.

Should Daniel be a member of TA?  No.

[rumborak]

I don't think JR is either under or over-used. I *do* wonder though occasionally whether some of his solos are in songs because "that's what DT does", or whether he truly thinks that's what the song called for. Especially the solo in TEM made me wonder that.

Regarding their live use of backing tracks, I'm not a big fan of that. That is, the backing tracks like James' doubled vocals, or JP's doubled guitar. For one I think it's not necessary, but even more importantly it requires them to play those songs with click, which IMHO makes them more mechanical.