Is Jordan Rudess Under-used in DT

[WildeSilas]

Watching LALP and thinking - why can't Jordan play rhythm guitar under some of these solos? Why doesn't he sing back-ups with John so they can ditch the canned vocals?

I know MP was against this with both DS and JR (the guitar) thing, saying, "None of that pussy Winger shit," (or something like that) - which to me is stupid because Paul Taylor filling both instruments gave Winger a huge sound similar to what DT has on tape. What would be wrong with it? We know he's a badass guitar player, and can sing pretty well, as I understand it. I also wonder if he can't write lyrics too - he's hasn't said he won't but just that he leaves that to the other guys. I can't help but wonder if there's a well of untapped potential in JR that could bring more diversity to DT in the studio and on stage, but it's not being tapped because they've just never done it that way before.

Thoughts?

[XB0BX]

Yes. </thread>

[Zook]

"None of that pussy Winger shit. More RORORORORORO"

[BlobVanDam]

Winger's latest album has a song called Pull Me Under.

WE'VE COME FULL CIRCLE.


JR dabbles with guitar very occasionally, but he's not really a guitarist, and he couldn't pull off DT's rhythm guitar parts well enough, plus there's the transition of instruments. Sticking to keyboard and using a heavy synth/guitar sound works much better for him and DT.

As for backup vocals/lyrics etc, I don't think it's something he wants to do. He's talked about it in interviews before, and I think he just wants to stick to his keyboard world. It would probably be difficult to do both.

[bl5150]

Winger's latest album has a song called Pull Me Under.

Good song too 

[El Barto]

Where he would have been useful there is during some of the covers. TNotB and MoP are two glaring examples (and don't tell me he can't play Het's rhythm parts). I thought the keyboards were the week link in To Tame a Land, honestly. Ironically now that Portnoy's no longer there, I doubt the cover songs will be much of an issue anymore.

[BlobVanDam]

Winger's latest album has a song called Pull Me Under.

Good song too 

I love the first two tracks on the album, but nothing else on it has grabbed me, unfortunately. But I digress.

[SuperTaco]

Actually, I'm pretty sure MP was just relaying what JP said. JP was in fact the one that said the "Winger shit" remark. Can you blame the man for wanting to be the only guitar player in the band? Let's be honest here. JP is eons better than JR on guitar, and JR is at his very best on keyboards. I'll be the first guy to say "Yeah, I wish DT had a 2nd guitarist sometimes" but it's just not going to happen.

As far as vocals, I've gotten the sense from reading/watching interviews over the years that JR is quite comfortable staying away from the mic. Again, he is a master keyboard player and I don't think he needs to do anything else to stand out. I would concur that he's under-utilized, but only at times. I would like to see him simplify his patches a bit, and go with more organic sounds (No, not the iWood  ), but that's just a personal preference.

[WheyWaffles]

JR is terribly over-used, but that's a keyboard (and Continuum, and iPad...) problem.  Let's not let him make it a guitar problem as well.

[TheGreatPretender]

Where would JR play rhythm guitar, exactly? I mean, there's not a moment in DT's music, ever, that I've seen JR stand there and do nothing, if he's not playing keyboard leads and solos, then I see him either playing atmosphere keyboard or doing something like the snarling pig thing to accentuate the guitar tone. He's always busy when he's up there.

[BlobVanDam]

JR is terribly over-used, but that's a keyboard (and Continuum, and iPad...) problem.  Let's not let him make it a guitar problem as well.

[KevShmev]

Thoughts?

Dream Theater and Winger are completely different bands, so it is a terrible comparison.  That is my thought.

[aprilethereal]

I don't have anything to add, but I'm following the discussion.

[puppyonacid]

I don't have anything to add, but I'm following the discussion.

+1 

[wolfking]

Thoughts?

Dream Theater and Winger are completely different bands, so it is a terrible comparison.  That is my thought.

People really don't realise how incredibly talented Winger are.  But saying that, it is not the best comparison.

Saying that, the last Winger was really good and much better than IV.  No where near as good as Pull, but tracks like Pull Me Under, Always Within Me and Supernova are really great.

In answer to the thread, I think things are find the way they are and Jordan can just stick to his keyboard.

[425]

I don't typically think Jordan is underused, but on DT12, I don't really hear him as much as I'd like to. It feels like ADTOE was brimming with keyboards, but on DT12 they sometimes sound like a power trio. Hopefully JR is more prominent on the next album.

But no, he doesn't need to play guitar or sing or even write lyrics really. All I want is more keyboard.

[Lowdz]

Thoughts?

Dream Theater and Winger are completely different bands, so it is a terrible comparison.  That is my thought.

People really don't realise how incredibly talented Winger are.  But saying that, it is not the best comparison.

Saying that, the last Winger was really good and much better than IV.  No where near as good as Pull, but tracks like Pull Me Under, Always Within Me and Supernova are really great.

In answer to the thread, I think things are find the way they are and Jordan can just stick to his keyboard.

Was just rolling my sleeves up to defend a great band (1st album aside) who are unfairly treated because of the false propoganda put out by Metallica (who couldn't play their stuff if they tried) and Beavis and Butthead. Then i saw Kade had done it for me. Great band with some prog elements in their later albums. And Kip Winger is a great musician and writer- many here would like his solo albums, check 'em out.

In answer to the op, no he's not but he is under mixed. See the BC&SL stems for proof of that. And there is enough guitar in DT these days.

[BlobVanDam]

Was just rolling my sleeves up to defend a great band (1st album aside) who are unfairly treated because of the false propoganda put out by Metallica (who couldn't play their stuff if they tried) and Beavis and Butthead. Then i saw Kade had done it for me. Great band with some prog elements in their later albums. And Kip Winger is a great musician and writer- many here would like his solo albums, check 'em out.

Hey, their first album is their best one!

[Sycsa]

"Yeah, I wish DT had a 2nd guitarist sometimes"

Ah, hell no!

In fact, I really like those moments when they don't put rhythm guitar underneath the guitar solo and let the bass/keys breathe. I was really surprised to hear that in the As I Am solo, given the nature of that song and album. It works well, they should do it more often.

[JediKnight1969]

I don't typically think Jordan is underused, but on DT12, I don't really hear him as much as I'd like to. It feels like ADTOE was brimming with keyboards, but on DT12 they sometimes sound like a power trio. Hopefully JR is more prominent on the next album.

But no, he doesn't need to play guitar or sing or even write lyrics really. All I want is more keyboard.

This.

[Lowdz]

Was just rolling my sleeves up to defend a great band (1st album aside) who are unfairly treated because of the false propoganda put out by Metallica (who couldn't play their stuff if they tried) and Beavis and Butthead. Then i saw Kade had done it for me. Great band with some prog elements in their later albums. And Kip Winger is a great musician and writer- many here would like his solo albums, check 'em out.

Hey, their first album is their best one!

Really? Ok. Not for me, that would be Pull. But it's ok, and still slightly different from the average hair metal stuff at the time.

[BlobVanDam]

Was just rolling my sleeves up to defend a great band (1st album aside) who are unfairly treated because of the false propoganda put out by Metallica (who couldn't play their stuff if they tried) and Beavis and Butthead. Then i saw Kade had done it for me. Great band with some prog elements in their later albums. And Kip Winger is a great musician and writer- many here would like his solo albums, check 'em out.

Hey, their first album is their best one!

Really? Ok. Not for me, that would be Pull. But it's ok, and still slightly different from the average hair metal stuff at the time.

Not really, it's typical hair metal to me. That's why I like that one.
And let's not forget Battle Stations from the Bill and Ted soundtrack. (Thanks to Cozmo for reminding me of that one!)

Was this thread about DT?

[wolfking]

I can see why Blob would like the first one the most.  I love that one too, but I like the more mature sound that they came up with on Pull.  I agree with Paul that that's their best work.  Kip's solo albums are really good too.

Was this thread about DT?

There's enough of those.

[Madman Shepherd]

[AngelBack]

I don't think he is under used, i think that the way he is used is more the issue.  There is no doubt of ability, prolly no one better on keys in rock music right now.  But I prefer he be used more like he was on DT12.  Composing, providing background and atmosphere rather too much soloing.  Intros and outro build ups/downs, mood, accents and just the general emotional feel to a song rather than too much solo time in the breaks.  Not that I don't enjoy when he tears off on a million note solo, but maybe that is best left for his solo work and within the DT model they stay with the DT12 pattern.  I think he is a genius and the combination of JP's melodies and JR's ability to flesh them out is where I see his greatest use for DT at this time in their careers.  They are still relevant enough to reach younger audiences but I know many younger fans kind of glaze over with keyboard solos.

[Sycsa]

I know many younger fans kind of glaze over with keyboard solos.

Good, we don't need them. 

[theseoafs]

Where would JR play rhythm guitar, exactly? I mean, there's not a moment in DT's music, ever, that I've seen JR stand there and do nothing, if he's not playing keyboard leads and solos, then I see him either playing atmosphere keyboard or doing something like the snarling pig thing to accentuate the guitar tone. He's always busy when he's up there.

Then you're not paying very close attention.  There are a lot of moments where JR sits back and lets the guitar, bass, and drums play alone, though admittedly that usually doesn't last for longer than maybe 16 bars.  Also, is a very mediocre band that doesn't deserve a lot of the praise they get.

I don't know why JR doesn't sing or play rhythm guitar.  It's probable that he doesn't feel comfortable doing either of those things, given that he's been in the band for some 15 years and hasn't ever volunteered to do anything like that live.  He's a fine guitarist and a fine singer, but maybe he doesn't feel like he's strong enough to contribute in a live setting.  I don't think any of the band members feel the live show suffers as a result.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Where he would have been useful there is during some of the covers. TNotB and MoP are two glaring examples (and don't tell me he can't play Het's rhythm parts). I thought the keyboards were the week link in To Tame a Land, honestly. Ironically now that Portnoy's no longer there, I doubt the cover songs will be much of an issue anymore.

I don't think there will be a lot of covers in the future, either way.

[bosk1]

Is Jordan Rudess Under-used in DT

Absolutely not.  At any given point in a song, Jordan is incredibly busy.  I couldn't possibly see him being used much more than he is.

Watching LALP and thinking - why can't Jordan play rhythm guitar under some of these solos? Why doesn't he sing back-ups with John so they can ditch the canned vocals?

Because if he were playing guitar, he wouldn't be playing keyboard, so his keyboard parts would be missing, which would take away from the song.  As far as vocals, he has said a few times that he doesn't want to. 

I know MP was against this with both DS and JR (the guitar) thing, saying, "None of that pussy Winger shit,"

Nice try blaming Mike Portnoy for all that is wrong with the world, but you might want to check your facts.  It was John Petrucci that said that.

But again, as mentioned above, while it might seem cool to see Jordan playing rythm guitar, his keyboard parts are integral to the songs.  It would not make sense for him to play guitar instead of keyboard.  That said, I wish they would bring a touring member along when they are on the road.  Someone like Tony McAlpine who is competent to play just about anything thrown his way no matter the complexity, but who is content to be in the background most of the time, and who can also jump behind the keys when needed to add another layer there.  I understand why they don't add a touring member.  But I think doing so would take their live sound up a notch.

I also wonder if he can't write lyrics too - he's hasn't said he won't but just that he leaves that to the other guys.

Well, that's exactly it.  For whatever reason, he doesn't feel motivated to write lyrics.  It's got to be something he is comfortable doing.  And given that he hasn't for so long, I wouldn't expect him to in the future.  As cool as I think it would be if he did, the fact that it would be a first would mean that any lyrics he offered would be under a microscope, and fans who already overanalyze everything DT does would dissect his lyrics to the max and probably make him never want to do it again.  So I wouldn't hold my breath hoping for him to pick up the pen anytime soon.

[Prog Snob]

I'm not even sure where the logic of having Jordan play guitar would be viable.

[TheGreatPretender]

Then you're not paying very close attention.  There are a lot of moments where JR sits back and lets the guitar, bass, and drums play alone, though admittedly that usually doesn't last for longer than maybe 16 bars.  Also, is a very mediocre band that doesn't deserve a lot of the praise they get.

I don't know why JR doesn't sing or play rhythm guitar.  It's probable that he doesn't feel comfortable doing either of those things, given that he's been in the band for some 15 years and hasn't ever volunteered to do anything like that live.  He's a fine guitarist and a fine singer, but maybe he doesn't feel like he's strong enough to contribute in a live setting.  I don't think any of the band members feel the live show suffers as a result.

I guess the editors wouldn't just put the cameras on him during those 16 bars. But my point still stands, 16 bars is by far not enough for him to do any kind of rhythm guitar or backup vocals.

[BlobVanDam]

Then you're not paying very close attention.  There are a lot of moments where JR sits back and lets the guitar, bass, and drums play alone, though admittedly that usually doesn't last for longer than maybe 16 bars. 

As you said, they never last very long. It's usually just a few bars while waiting for a keyboard part to come in. It would be pointless and awkward for him to try and switch instruments for the sake of doubling a part that's already being played anyway, and it would only be a few bars, then you'd hear the transition as he stops playing guitar to switch to keyboard. I don't see the point, given that the rhythm never sounds lacking with JP's guitar sound. TBH, another guitar in the mix is the last thing DT's live sound needs.

I don't know why JR doesn't sing or play rhythm guitar.  It's probable that he doesn't feel comfortable doing either of those things, given that he's been in the band for some 15 years and hasn't ever volunteered to do anything like that live.  He's a fine guitarist and a fine singer, but maybe he doesn't feel like he's strong enough to contribute in a live setting.  I don't think any of the band members feel the live show suffers as a result.

I don't think it does either, and from what I've seen, JR isn't a strong enough guitarist to pull it off. And practicing to get to that point would divide his time too much, and would probably negatively impact the performance, taking away time he needs to practice the complex keyboard parts. Then there's also more gear to carry around, a more complex setup with more potential to go wrong, and more clutter of instruments on his stand to deal with. The whole thing seems to have a lot more cons than pros.
And I don't want any additional touring members either. I just want DT on stage!

Also, is a very mediocre band that doesn't deserve a lot of the praise they get.

What praise? I don't see any praise, let alone a lot of it. What ever little credit they get is probably deserved.

[Dark Castle]

Where would JR play rhythm guitar, exactly? I mean, there's not a moment in DT's music, ever, that I've seen JR stand there and do nothing, if he's not playing keyboard leads and solos, then I see him either playing atmosphere keyboard or doing something like the snarling pig thing to accentuate the guitar tone. He's always busy when he's up there.

Also, is a very mediocre band that doesn't deserve a lot of the praise they get.

Just wanna say that Winger is awesome.

[mikeyd23]

....That said, I wish they would bring a touring member along when they are on the road.  Someone like Tony McAlpine who is competent to play just about anything thrown his way no matter the complexity, but who is content to be in the background most of the time, and who can also jump behind the keys when needed to add another layer there.  I understand why they don't add a touring member.  But I think doing so would take their live sound up a notch.

Yeah I hear what you are saying in regards to the touring member idea, but how weird would it be to see another musician on stage during a DT show? DT have built their empire around the live performances of, instrumentally speaking; one guitar player, one keys player, a bassist and a drummer.  I'm not saying a touring member would be a bad idea, because if it was the right person (someone like McAlpine like you mentioned) and they utilized that person in the right way, it could be really great.  It would just be really weird and odd and take a little getting used to.

Anyway, directed toward the OP, I don't feel JR is "under-used" I think he is very busy at most points during live performances and clearly is guiding the direct of the writing with JP in the studio, so he should be considered a major creative force in the band.  The idea of him playing guitar live doesn't really work with me just because, like others said, that means he wouldn't be able to play keys.  We are talking about Jordan Rudess here, perhaps the greatest rock keyboardist in the world right now, anything that  could take away from or detract from him playing keyboard isn't a great idea in my mind.

[bosk1]

....That said, I wish they would bring a touring member along when they are on the road.  Someone like Tony McAlpine who is competent to play just about anything thrown his way no matter the complexity, but who is content to be in the background most of the time, and who can also jump behind the keys when needed to add another layer there.  I understand why they don't add a touring member.  But I think doing so would take their live sound up a notch.

Yeah I hear what you are saying in regards to the touring member idea, but how weird would it be to see another musician on stage during a DT show? DT have built their empire around the live performances of, instrumentally speaking; one guitar player, one keys player, a bassist and a drummer.  I'm not saying a touring member would be a bad idea, because if it was the right person (someone like McAlpine like you mentioned) and they utilized that person in the right way, it could be really great.  It would just be really weird and odd and take a little getting used to.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think it really would be weird.  I think itt seemed a bit odd to a lot of people at first when Gildenlowe toured with Transatlantic.  Granted, they didn't have the established tour history of DT, but it was still a situation where you had 4 guys that had written 100% of all of the music, and then you have this guy who had nothing to do with any of that join them onstage.  It's odd for maybe the first 5 minutes.  But after that, I think an audience quickly gets over that and is able to just appreciate what is going on up onstage and appreciate that this additional player is adding to what is going on rather than taking away from it.