How much would a Berklee teaching salary compare to a DT drummer salary?

[XB0BX]

Hmm?

[Tis BOOLsheet]

One would have to think that his DT salary is higher.

[Perpetual Change]

Not sure what MM's position was, but it easily could have been equal, if not more than DT. My guess is, DT comes with lots of other perks, like playing in a band and only working a few months a year.

[adamack]

I honestly don't see him making much more than 200 grand a year as a teacher at Berklee.

With DT, I'd like to think that he might pull in upwards of 500k or so per year.

Please keep in mind that this is total speculation, and just a wild guess. So anyone who knows better, please correct me if I'm way off.

[1neeto]

Not sure what MM's position was, but it easily could have been equal, if not more than DT. My guess is, DT comes with lots of other perks, like playing in a band and only working a few months a year.

A band like DT works a whole lot more than just a few months a year. They record, tour for about a year, then record again. That's some hard working musicians there.

[El JoNNo]

Good question, because he wouldn't get money from previous albums unless there is some sort of deal that the band as a whole gets paid. I doubt it though.

[bosk1]

With DT, I'd like to think that he might pull in upwards of 500k or so per year.

Not likely.

[ResultsMayVary]

Like others have said, it is very, very likely MM makes more with DT than at Berklee. There are more perks to playing in a band, as well. The amount of time he "works" can be seen to be a lot less with DT. He gets long periods on and off tour with the band, etc.

[Ħ]

As a band member, is it a fixed salary? I would think that depending on sales (especially concert ticket sales), the amount they accrue from year to year fluctuates wildly.

[Perpetual Change]

Not sure what MM's position was, but it easily could have been equal, if not more than DT. My guess is, DT comes with lots of other perks, like playing in a band and only working a few months a year.

A band like DT works a whole lot more than just a few months a year. They record, tour for about a year, then record again. That's some hard working musicians there.

Really? From what I can tell, DT spent about 3 months on the road in 2011 (plus however much time they spent in the studio), and 4 months on tour in 2012 (plus however long they were in the studio writing DT12 toward the end of the year).

Previous to that, to DT spent about 2 months on the road in 2010 (plus however much time they spent on drummer auditions) and about 4 months in 2009 (plus whatever time they spent writing BC&SL and one month for PN 09).

That's 14 months of touring over the last 48 months. That sounds pretty good to me!

Also, I'm positive that DT are really committed and hard workers. Also, I'm sure that there's a lot of work outside touring and writing albums that we aren't privy to - like running the business side of things. But I would be genuinely surprised if the amount of downtime isn't one of the major perks, and I likewise would NOT be surprised if MM makes slightly less as DT drummer than a tenured professor at Berkley.

But again, I'm not sure what MM's gig at Berkley was anyway.

[adamack]

With DT, I'd like to think that he might pull in upwards of 500k or so per year.

Not likely.

Yeah, true. I just did some math with some touring figures, and it came out to be a lot less than I had assumed in my head.

With ticket sales, album sales, merchandise, publishing, and every other avenue considered, I really could see him making more like half of my original guess once all said and done.

[bosk1]

As a band member, is it a fixed salary? I would think that depending on sales (especially concert ticket sales), the amount they accrue from year to year fluctuates wildly.

This is a bit of a roundabout explanation, but...

In terms of business structure, most bands are set up as closely held corporations.  Full band members wear many hats within the corporate structure and are usually corporate officers, directors, shareholders (in fact, the band members typically own all the shares of stock), and employees.  The way most closely held corporations work, the officers/shareholders get paid a salary, plus bonuses and/or stock dividends.  The reason for the "plus" is because money coming into the corporation and then leaving it gets taxed more if it is left in the corporation as a profit.  If it as paid out as a dividend or bonus, it is a corporate expense.  Think of it this way in terms of a band:  Money from album sales comes into the band corporation as revenue.  The band/corporation has to pay tax on it, which reduces the amount.  Band members are then paid, and they have to pay taxes on whatever they received as their personal income.  So that money from album sales is taxed twice.  The corporate structure and the way things are paid out is done to try to minimize the tax hit.

So with that backdrop in mind, band members usually do receive a fixed salary as employees of the corporation.  Then they will also get periodic bonuses and other payments on top of that in years where there is additional money to pay out and the band deems it appropriate to do those kinds of payouts.

[Ħ]

Interesting. So "Dream Theater" is a company.

I can't imagine most run-of-the-mill bands bothering to set up something that complicated.

[FracturedMirror]

Being in a band like DT would also add chances for gear endorsements and video deals that wouldn't be as likely for a professor.

[bosk1]

I can't imagine most run-of-the-mill bands bothering to set up something that complicated.

Every professional touring band is a company of some sort because they have to be to make any money (and because of a million other reasons).  And it's not really that complicated. 

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Interesting. So "Dream Theater" is a company.

I can't imagine most run-of-the-mill bands bothering to set up something that complicated.

No offence but is that really a big surprise? They all have families and have been played together for so long and have buildt this band from the scratch so of course they wanna see that continue and protect their brand as a company. They all have families to support so of course alot of care is taken to administer the money they have earned through the years. I'm sure they have a strategic plan for the next few years both financially and with releases, tours, promotions, social media (webpage, FB) and everything that comes along with running a successful band.

[Anguyen92]

Well, let's do some estimating and math on the revenue and costs of a typical DT show and give an estimate guess on how much Mangini makes per show x 100 for the year (again, it's an estimate) or is that not allowed here?

(This is something, I always want to know.  How much revenue a show of a touring band makes and how much does it cost to run a show and how much profit of the band do they retain.)

[Perpetual Change]

Well, a publication for Berkley cites full-time, tenure track professors of music as getting around 42k per year. Ouch! Can you even make rent on that? Source: https://www.berklee.edu/sites/default/files/2010_Music-Salary_Guide.pdf

That said, not sure what Mangini's status was. If he were in that category, then I'd imagine being in DT could be a sizeable payraise. If he were tenured, though, I could see the number cited above doubling. So who knows?

[Ħ]

Interesting. So "Dream Theater" is a company.

I can't imagine most run-of-the-mill bands bothering to set up something that complicated.

No offence but is that really a big surprise? They all have families and have been played together for so long and have buildt this band from the scratch so of course they wanna see that continue and protect their brand as a company. They all have families to support so of course alot of care is taken to administer the money they have earned through the years. I'm sure they have a strategic plan for the next few years both financially and with releases, tours, promotions, social media (webpage, FB) and everything that comes along with running a successful band.

No offence taken, Mr. Boom Shack-a-lack, I was just buildt this way, always needing alot of special attention.

[rumborak]

Well, a publication for Berkley cites full-time, tenure track professors of music as getting around 42k per year. Ouch! Can you even make rent on that? Source: https://www.berklee.edu/sites/default/files/2010_Music-Salary_Guide.pdf

That said, not sure what Mangini's status was. If he were in that category, then I'd imagine being in DT could be a sizeable payraise. If he were tenured, though, I could see the number cited above doubling. So who knows?

While Berklee will probably be at the top end of teacher salaries (since it's also at the top end of tuitions), but yeah, even considering that you better love your job, because you won't have a lot of dispensable income. A friend of mine is a vocal teacher at Berklee, and she has a wedding band on the side to bring in more money.

[hefdaddy42]

I can't imagine most run-of-the-mill bands bothering to set up something that complicated.

Probably one reason they are just run-of-the-mill bands.

[bosk1]

Well, let's do some estimating and math on the revenue and costs of a typical DT show and give an estimate guess on how much Mangini makes per show x 100 for the year (again, it's an estimate) or is that not allowed here?

(This is something, I always want to know.  How much revenue a show of a touring band makes and how much does it cost to run a show and how much profit of the band do they retain.)

Here is a post that lays out a basic framework for how you might go about estimating tour income.  There are a lot of variables and a lot of unknowns, but this lays out a lot of things most people don't think about.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=28683.msg1111141#msg1111141

[Podaar]

I wish I had access to The Force so I could read that post. It sounds interesting...

Nevermind...

[adamack]

Well, let's do some estimating and math on the revenue and costs of a typical DT show and give an estimate guess on how much Mangini makes per show x 100 for the year (again, it's an estimate) or is that not allowed here?

(This is something, I always want to know.  How much revenue a show of a touring band makes and how much does it cost to run a show and how much profit of the band do they retain.)

I'll take my best stab at it...

I'll use their last tour as a reference: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?board=41.0

They played around 110 shows from Sept. 2011 through Sept 2012, so let's say they do around 100 shows per year (as you pointed out.)

Average ticket cost, let's say $40.

I checked out a sampling of the venues they play at, and the range is approximately 1600 - 5000 people, with the majority of them being at around 2000-2200.

So, let's say they sell 1700 tickets per venue.

100 shows x $40/ticket x 1700 = $6, 800,000 total per world tour

I have no basis for any speculation on their costs. They have to pay the venue, their roadies/setup team, living costs (hotels, food, tour bus gas), and probably TONS of other costs that I just don't know about or am leaving out.

[adamack]

Here is a post that lays out a basic framework for how you might go about estimating tour income.  There are a lot of variables and a lot of unknowns, but this lays out a lot of things most people don't think about.

Ah, where is the link? Very interested in reading it...thanks in advance.

[bosk1]

You did a good job of figuring in some of the expenses fans typically do not think about.  But as outlined in the post I linked to, most U.S. venues do not pay percentage of ticket sales.  Instead, bands get paid a guarantee that is negotiated by the promoter and band management up front.  That isn't always the case, but it is the norm, from what I understand.  So a more realistic model would look something like:

From what I've gathered informally through the grapevine, and just going with round numbers, average guarantees for a headliner that can sell out a 2,500 seat venue in the U.S. is about $50,000 (substantially less if we aren't talking a sellout capacity band).  For a 30-date North American tour, that's $1,500,000 maximum (assuming they are getting really good guarantees).  Sound like a lot of money?  Keep in mind that that is gross income to the company.  Let's think about some of the expenses (and this isn't all of them):
-They pay a band and tour manager.
-They pay a crew, which includes their techs, lighting guy, sound guy, other crew who travel with them to do set up/tear down, etc.  Take a look in one of the recent tour books and see how many guys they have on the road with them at any given time.
-Tour equipment, which includes lighting, sound, their video screens and video production, shipping cases, etc.
-Shipping of all that stuff from venue to venue.
-Rental for tour buses (for band and crew) and trucks.
-Airfare for everybody.
-Lodging (hotels that are in downtown locations close to venues for 30 cities--imagine living away from home in hotels for a month and a half.  Now multiply that by five band members, management, and however many crew members).
-Food for all the people above.
-Fees for venue security.
-Fees for local promoters in every city they play in.
-Cost for a their rehearsal studio, hotels, food, etc. for all the pre-tour preparation.
-Paying someone to create their videos, lighting, etc.

How much do you think is left after just those expenses when they are living on the road for a month and a half (actually, more than that because of the rehearsal time, but w/e)?  Probably less than a third, but let's be generous and say $500,000 goes to the company.  Let's forget for just a minute or two about all the other expenses the company has.  That's about $100,000 gross, pre-tax dollars per band member for a dude in his 40s with a family, who gets taxed to death because he is self-employed, and has to pay out of pocket for medical insurance and all the other stuff that us working stiffs with regular jobs take for granted.  Is that chump change?  Hardly.  But think about the fact that that is the vast majority of the income the band has seen from this year's work.  Now imagine that goes away. 

As others have said, it's hardly like these guys are starving.  They're doing well.  But they aren't making Metallica dollars either.  Nowhere near that. 

And, yeah, there are a lot of flaws in the above model (for instance, the money from a given show or tour doesn't likely get paid out to the guys in a lump sum.  It probably stays in the company with all the other money, and they pay out salary every months and "bonuses" or something similar at the end of the year so it doesn't get double taxed), but it's a stripped-down, oversimplified version just to give a bit of a reality check.

[Anguyen92]

Well, let's do some estimating and math on the revenue and costs of a typical DT show and give an estimate guess on how much Mangini makes per show x 100 for the year (again, it's an estimate) or is that not allowed here?

(This is something, I always want to know.  How much revenue a show of a touring band makes and how much does it cost to run a show and how much profit of the band do they retain.)

Here is a post that lays out a basic framework for how you might go about estimating tour income.  There are a lot of variables and a lot of unknowns, but this lays out a lot of things most people don't think about.  https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=28683.msg1111141#msg1111141

Oh cool, thanks for the link, man.

[Podaar]

adamak,

Using your basic calculation...even if if their expenses and cost of sales reached 90% (which is totally possible) that would leave $6,800,000 remaining. Divide by the members of the band (which I doubt would be divided evenly but still) that's only $136,000 each for the tour. Not great money but better than a hot stick in the eye I suppose.

[Perpetual Change]

adamak,

Using your basic calculation...even if if their expenses and cost of sales reached 90% (which is totally possible) that would leave $6,800,000 remaining. Divide by the members of the band (which I doubt would be divided evenly but still) that's only $136,000 each for the tour. Not great money but better than a hot stick in the eye I suppose.

I feel like that number is still high, but a lot closer than some of the outrageous figures we've seen thus far.

Heck, 136k is still really, really good - and slightly more than I'd imagine most tenured professors make. Not sure why people have the impression that DT are extremely wealthy, anyway.


Plus, that's only for a few months work. Remember, when MP was in the band he was easily touring with one or two other bands any given year.

[Podaar]

adamak,

Using your basic calculation...even if if their expenses and cost of sales reached 90% (which is totally possible) that would leave $6,800,000 remaining. Divide by the members of the band (which I doubt would be divided evenly but still) that's only $136,000 each for the tour. Not great money but better than a hot stick in the eye I suppose.

I feel like that number is still high, but a lot closer than some of the outrageous figures we've seen thus far.

Heck, 136k is still really, really good - and slightly more than I'd imagine most tenured professors make. Not sure why people have the impression that DT are extremely wealthy, anyway.


Plus, that's only for a few months work. Remember, when MP was in the band he was easily touring with one or two other bands any given year.

It is high now that I think of it. If the band netted $680,000 that would be taxed at business income. So at the best that would leave $462,400 / 5 = $92,400 each which would itself be taxed as personal income. But as bosk1 points out this speculation is probably way off. Even if it this were true, it's not great money for what they create, or so it seems to me. A journeyman electrician in my town with 30 years experience would easily earn that much not to mention they'd have paid medical.

I think adamak's earlier base number was for the entire 14 month tour. I may be wrong.

[Perpetual Change]

That's true, but I don't think being in a band is like being in another profession, where experience ideally turns to higher salary.

[Podaar]

Good call.

[adamack]

I think adamak's earlier base number was for the entire 14 month tour. I may be wrong.

You're correct in that the entire tour spanned 14 months, but I just counted up the number of shows from September 2011 to September 2012, so I took a one-year span as my base figure.

But yeah, I think that tour went on until December of 2012, so it was definitely a 14+ month tour.

[adamack]

You did a good job of figuring in some of the expenses fans typically do not think about.  But as outlined in the post I linked to, most U.S. venues do not pay percentage of ticket sales.  Instead, bands get paid a guarantee that is negotiated by the promoter and band management up front.  That isn't always the case, but it is the norm, from what I understand.  So a more realistic model would look something like:

From what I've gathered informally through the grapevine, and just going with round numbers, average guarantees for a headliner that can sell out a 2,500 seat venue in the U.S. is about $50,000 (substantially less if we aren't talking a sellout capacity band).  For a 30-date North American tour, that's $1,500,000 maximum (assuming they are getting really good guarantees).  Sound like a lot of money?  Keep in mind that that is gross income to the company.  Let's think about some of the expenses (and this isn't all of them):
-They pay a band and tour manager.
-They pay a crew, which includes their techs, lighting guy, sound guy, other crew who travel with them to do set up/tear down, etc.  Take a look in one of the recent tour books and see how many guys they have on the road with them at any given time.
-Tour equipment, which includes lighting, sound, their video screens and video production, shipping cases, etc.
-Shipping of all that stuff from venue to venue.
-Rental for tour buses (for band and crew) and trucks.
-Airfare for everybody.
-Lodging (hotels that are in downtown locations close to venues for 30 cities--imagine living away from home in hotels for a month and a half.  Now multiply that by five band members, management, and however many crew members).
-Food for all the people above.
-Fees for venue security.
-Fees for local promoters in every city they play in.
-Cost for a their rehearsal studio, hotels, food, etc. for all the pre-tour preparation.
-Paying someone to create their videos, lighting, etc.

How much do you think is left after just those expenses when they are living on the road for a month and a half (actually, more than that because of the rehearsal time, but w/e)?  Probably less than a third, but let's be generous and say $500,000 goes to the company.  Let's forget for just a minute or two about all the other expenses the company has.  That's about $100,000 gross, pre-tax dollars per band member for a dude in his 40s with a family, who gets taxed to death because he is self-employed, and has to pay out of pocket for medical insurance and all the other stuff that us working stiffs with regular jobs take for granted.  Is that chump change?  Hardly.  But think about the fact that that is the vast majority of the income the band has seen from this year's work.  Now imagine that goes away. 

As others have said, it's hardly like these guys are starving.  They're doing well.  But they aren't making Metallica dollars either.  Nowhere near that. 

And, yeah, there are a lot of flaws in the above model (for instance, the money from a given show or tour doesn't likely get paid out to the guys in a lump sum.  It probably stays in the company with all the other money, and they pay out salary every months and "bonuses" or something similar at the end of the year so it doesn't get double taxed), but it's a stripped-down, oversimplified version just to give a bit of a reality check.

Awesome, thanks for this info. As I predicted, I definitely left out a ton of stuff haha.

It's crazy how much work goes into such a tour. I realize that each member is probably only pulling in 100K or less, but I wish somehow they could make a lot more. I know it's really not possible though

[Eren]

From what I hear from teachers here as a Berklee student, majority of them would prefer the drumming job.