Mike Mangini on DT12

[ariich]

I think he's done an incredible job. Basically, this:

His performance on this album is one of the best I've ever heard. He does so much great stuff, but he really knows when to go crazy and when to stay simple. And his playing is very musical - he really locks in to what other instruments are doing.

There are quite a few polyrhythmic moments, but most are really subtle. He does a lot of stuff between his two ride cymbals that's hard to pick out. Personally, I love the beat at the start of IT - not really sure exactly what he's doing there but its awesome! Also, during the insane vocal moment on IT starting at 11:11 he adds in crotchet (quarter) notes on the hi-hat which makes the other rhythm he is playing in unison with JM and JP ten times more awesome.

This is a really good point. As I was reading your post, I just got to the end of the first chorus of IT and his cymbal work in that chorus is in a different time from the rest of the drums. It keeps a steady beat while everything else is in 15/8 (I think).

As you say, there are moments on the album, but it's subtle.

[eviljust]

I need to listen to the album more and more, so I'll just bring my little consideration from just three listenings of it. MM's playing is overwhelming, I really enjoyed TEI and is extremely fun to play as well. I think I will say the same about Enigma Machine and Behind The Veil, not to mention IT, but as I said I just need to dig more. I love his touch, bu still have to get used to the really fat sound of the drums.

[Öxölklöfför]

I think he sounds like a drum machine.  I'm not a drummer but correct me if I'm wrong; I think his playing isn't as versatile as Portnoy's

He sounds like a drum machine because he's a damn precise drummer
And about versatility, maybe because he didn't throwing too much fill ? IMO

I see it this way: Portnoy plays the drums as a lead instrument, which has both pros and cons (it throws in some great surprises, but can be a bit too much at times). People have kind of gotten used to it,  and expects that from Mangini too. Mangini on the other hand, plays more "supportive", and spices that up with some incredible playing here and there. I see it as we get really god drumming from them both, and that we should be happy with the back catalogue that they have been involved on. With that said, I like Manginis drumming in DT more than Portnoys.

[sunseeker]

I never thought I'd say this but I miss Portnoy. MM is amazing, but now I realized that I liked MP's flashy, in-your-face style (minding the overuse of fills). I recently picked up The Whirlwind and found MP's playing very enjoyable.

Maybe I cannot appreciate or cannot hear all the hidden gems in Manginis playing. With DT12 i was hoping for moments like the polyrythm section in the beggining of OTBOA 

Could you please elaborate on this? I keep hearing about MP's "in your face" playing, but I do not understand what this exactly means relative to MM's playing. I don't find MM to be any less "flashy" (if you want to use that term) or intense. In fact, I find it quite the OPPOSITE.

I'm getting the impression people are just using "in-your-face playing" as a generic term meant to be understood as an overall appreciation for MP's individual sound as a musician. I can totally appreciate that, if that is in fact what you meant.

On a totally separate note.... lol @ the guy in the other thread who still thinks MM is 'holding back' in his playing.

Upfront I wanted to say I have absoluetly no idea about drums

MP's sound is one thing, I'm not talking exactly about production where Portnoy was much more "upfront". This is one factor, but I can look past that.

I'll try to explain on an example, which I think embeds both production and style "issues": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SFtwm6xlrQ .

On the CD this fragment and all nuances of his playing are burried behind the rest of the instruments. So thats one - sonic - factor. And even though I consider this clip amazing, where I believe he hits almost everything on his set and is visibly meticulously planned to be in sync musically... there's something missing. I'm no Portnoy fanboy, I must emphasize, but there is some sort of undefined groove  that leads his drumming. Like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wG3EcFx6n8 . Nothing mindblowing, but I'm honestly enjoying it more than Mangini on DT12.

EDIT: As contrast, in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GXRzoJbiI . I find Mike's playing way more dynamic (even taking in account a different style) with just enough variation to keep the listener engaged. And You can also clearly feel his style soaking through here and there.

I'm starting to think that maybe he's not a strong enough personality to overpower JP and JR which are clearly running the show now, that's why he's more of a supporting cast and laid back.

[Dorkmaster Flek]

Mangini simply has a different style than Portnoy.  Portnoy was in your face with technicality, which is fun of course, but that was his personality.  Mangini can absolutely do that, and he does in little moments of it, but he also clearly has an idea of when to put himself in the background and let the other band members do their stuff.  In fact, his ability to sync up with what the other band members are playing and link their different parts together via the drums is pretty incredible.

Now that I've heard the full album a couple times from the streaming release, I totally agree with the people who went to the early listening party.  Mangini has technically impressive moments, but there were plenty of times where I thought to myself "If Portnoy was playing this, he would be filling in a lot where Mangini isn't."  It's just his style, and it pretty much comes down to which one you like better.

I'd be lying if I said that I didn't miss the Portnoy style a little, but ultimately the question is does Mangini fit in well with the band as a whole, and do they write great music as a result?  I believe the answer to that is a resounding yes.  I really, really like this new album. 

[a51502112]

Not a bad lil' drummer.

[EstyMaJ]

This 48 year old has not been this excited or impressed with a whole album in a long time i can not stop listening to this great great great is all i can say i tried following what Mangini is doing threw the last listen Just nutz what he does on the accents alone on the cymbals and the bass drum , besides the fact there so much good in EVERY band member going on threw out the whole album THANK YOU DREAM THEATER !!!! Ace job on the whole album.

[Jaq]

If you ever played drums-and I did for a while, just never had the hand speed to be a really GOOD drummer and gave it up-you can't listen to DT12 and not be impressed by MM. I'm not even going to bring in the "but MP wouldn't have played it this way" card, because, DUH. Different drummer. What MM does, and it's stunning given how good he is techinically, is he supports the song. So often you get to a part and realize he's playing to accent what one particular member of the band is doing with one hand while accenting another with his other hand. Sure, he has moments where he hits every tom on the kit twice, or does something amazing with cymbal work that makes your eyes pop open, but he's also not overplaying. One of the biggest problems with extremely technical music is when the drummer in particular gets caught up in filling every moment possible with something. MM lets the music breathe while exploding when there's an appropriate place to. He's a fantastic drummer.

[Lowdz]

I'm certainly not disappointed and I can't wait to see him play this stuff live.
I'm looking forward to blasting the cd to appreciate his playing better. He doesn't stand out like MP did because of the mix I guess so it's not as easy to pick out the awesomeness I'm sure is there. given an MP production and mix I think he'd be stunning.

Saying that, there's not much that makes me air drum like listening to Neil Peart on the early Rush albums does.

[Lumiukko]

His drumming is fantastic and sounds ''refreshing'' into DT stuff. There's a lot of different ideas from what I have been used to expect from Portnoy in the last albuns he played, so I'm completely satisfied with the drumming. Certainly raised the level of difficulty for musicians like me who try to learn and play the drums. For instance, in IT 14:10 theres a fill going on along with the rhythm. I mean, WTF! haha I NEED to see this thing live. Mike Mangini nailed it! It's a pity the drums are mixed like if it was an 80's prog/pop band.

[IslandInTheMaking]

Really enjoying Mangini's drumming on the new record.    Would have liked to hear the symbals a tiny bit higher in the mix though. I don't have the cd in my hands yet, but the spotify version brought his splahes and hi-hats out so that i can finally hear them. But still just a tiny bit more would have been great. Otherwise I'm really enjoying the mix. Sure it's loud, but not to enogh to be a distraction for me.

Have any of you guys tried to figure out where MM is using his different sized kicks? One place that i noticed is in TLG, first and second pre-chorus. Sounds like the small kick to me, but there's some really fast hits aswell.. not sure if he's got double pedals for it? What about the second snare?

[metropofreak]

***SPOILER***

Just got the special edition. It's got a smartphone scan code with some pretty cool features; one of them is a little feature about the drumming in Illumination Theory. Definitely worth checking out if you are a drummer and you want to really know how complicated illumination theory is!

[Kotowboy]

***SPOILER***

Just got the special edition. It's got a smartphone scan code with some pretty cool features; one of them is a little feature about the drumming in Illumination Theory. Definitely worth checking out if you are a drummer and you want to really know how complicated illumination theory is!

Watching now .

[daykrush]

I love the drumming of MM on DT. There are things going on that you only can hear when your a drummer yourself, and that's a problem with most of the people who still miss MP in DT or just saying that his drums are not that spectaculair.
I was a very big fan of MP, had all the drum dvd's and he's still one of the best drummers around. But after seeing MP on the latest Neil Morse dvd's i realy started to dislike him more and more......get on your drumseat and stay there! Your backing up NM and it's not the MP show.

I had my doubts the first time going to see DT without MP, but MM brought back the plessure by the whole band. Seen MM play with DT now for four times and he is the right guy for DT, can't imagine he'll ever be replaced.

But back on topic ......MM is a blessing for DT and he adds some new stuff to the band, very sick rythms going on , but as i sayd: you need to know about drumming.
Sure he could have done a lot more technical stuff and it could be done at some places but he did what the song asked for. ( thinking commercial, not taking it over the top).
Been watching the Luna Park preview and I've never seen a band so tight , it's scary!

Going to buy a meet and greet for one of the dates for this tour, only to meet MM and check if he realy has only two hands an feet.

[Tick]

I think he's done an incredible job. Basically, this:

His performance on this album is one of the best I've ever heard. He does so much great stuff, but he really knows when to go crazy and when to stay simple. And his playing is very musical - he really locks in to what other instruments are doing.

There are quite a few polyrhythmic moments

That sounds serious!

[gspdt]

4 listens in and I can sense that this album will have longevity like most DT albums. MM has added so much to the sound of DT since he joined the band and proves on this record that he has way too much talent! However there is something wrong with the mix. MM is  too low and detail is lost (not for the first time I might add - ADTOE!!). Maybe the sound will change once I get to know this album??

Also the sound is very flat and there is too much of a contrast between the hard guitar and weaker drum sound. Sorry guys - but when this happens I do think what would it sound like with MP with the sticks with his trademark upfront 'balls to the wall' sound??!!

Looking forward to the next listen and overall great job MM.

[Kotowboy]

I watched the video of Mangini talking thru I.T.

And I have to come back to : I love him as a person and he's the *perfect* guy for the band - but the way he talks about drumming - it's like it's completely from the brain and not enough from the soul.

He'll talk about Petrucci and Rudess jamming and he'll just be talking about assigning different sized drums to whatever octave they're playing in and breaking the time signature up between yadda yadda yadda.

I don't think I can think of an instance right now where he would say : John played a riff and I just grooved along feeling the music.

It would be more like - John was playing low down so I played only on my bigger drums etc.

[TAC]

One of my favorite reasons for being a DT fan was watching and hearing MP play drums. I know there was a lot of criticism about MP not "improving" over the years, and while it always bothered me to read the negative opinions, I guess in my heart of hearts, I knew that drummingwise, DT was being surpassed by a number of bands.

When I listen to DT12, it's clear that those days are over and DT on ALL instruments have upped the game again.

[hefdaddy42]

I watched the video of Mangini talking thru I.T.

Is that on the special edition with the 5.1 mix?  Or only on the super deluxe edition with the LPs?

[Kotowboy]

I watched the video of Mangini talking thru I.T.

Is that on the special edition with the 5.1 mix?  Or only on the super deluxe edition with the LPs?

CD/DVD.

I could try and scan the QR code for you ? would it work ?

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I watched the video of Mangini talking thru I.T.

And I have to come back to : I love him as a person and he's the *perfect* guy for the band - but the way he talks about drumming - it's like it's completely from the brain and not enough from the soul.

He'll talk about Petrucci and Rudess jamming and he'll just be talking about assigning different sized drums to whatever octave they're playing in and breaking the time signature up between yadda yadda yadda.

I don't think I can think of an instance right now where he would say : John played a riff and I just grooved along feeling the music.

It would be more like - John was playing low down so I played only on my bigger drums etc.

Interviewer: So Mike: How did you come up with the drum patterns for DT12?
MM: Well I just grooved along to JP and that's it.
Interviewer: Oh...

It's just MM being passionate about the art of drumming. Does MM groove? Well IMO he does so I have no problem with him nerding away and explaining his way of coming up with drum patterns and grooves but that dosen't mean he will not add groove into his playing anyway. Maybe the groove part is just silently implied for him meaning everything should of course groove no matter how complicated things are and there's no need in telling that or something like that.

[Kotowboy]

*snip*






Not sure if that counts as " a leak " or whatever. Take it down if so.

[hefdaddy42]

Not sure if that counts as " a leak " or whatever. Take it down if so.

Let's err on the side of caution.  It isn't available on the "regular" version, so let's not just give it away.

[Kotowboy]

*snip*

I'm not a fan of his soloing either for the same reasons I said above.

However - his solos on DT12 are all great. Probably because they're only a few bars each.

[Polis]

I'm kinda middle of the road on it. To some degree I'm disappointed because it doesn't really stand out as much as you'd think it should with a guy so technically strong as MM.

so if the 5 second drum breaks and 10 second fills don't stand out, then I don't know what does

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I never thought I'd say this but I miss Portnoy. MM is amazing, but now I realized that I liked MP's flashy, in-your-face style (minding the overuse of fills). I recently picked up The Whirlwind and found MP's playing very enjoyable.

Maybe I cannot appreciate or cannot hear all the hidden gems in Manginis playing. With DT12 i was hoping for moments like the polyrythm section in the beggining of OTBOA 

Could you please elaborate on this? I keep hearing about MP's "in your face" playing, but I do not understand what this exactly means relative to MM's playing. I don't find MM to be any less "flashy" (if you want to use that term) or intense. In fact, I find it quite the OPPOSITE.

I'm getting the impression people are just using "in-your-face playing" as a generic term meant to be understood as an overall appreciation for MP's individual sound as a musician. I can totally appreciate that, if that is in fact what you meant.

On a totally separate note.... lol @ the guy in the other thread who still thinks MM is 'holding back' in his playing.

Upfront I wanted to say I have absoluetly no idea about drums

MP's sound is one thing, I'm not talking exactly about production where Portnoy was much more "upfront". This is one factor, but I can look past that.

I'll try to explain on an example, which I think embeds both production and style "issues": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SFtwm6xlrQ .

On the CD this fragment and all nuances of his playing are burried behind the rest of the instruments. So thats one - sonic - factor. And even though I consider this clip amazing, where I believe he hits almost everything on his set and is visibly meticulously planned to be in sync musically... there's something missing. I'm no Portnoy fanboy, I must emphasize, but there is some sort of undefined groove  that leads his drumming. Like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wG3EcFx6n8 . Nothing mindblowing, but I'm honestly enjoying it more than Mangini on DT12.

EDIT: As contrast, in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GXRzoJbiI . I find Mike's playing way more dynamic (even taking in account a different style) with just enough variation to keep the listener engaged. And You can also clearly feel his style soaking through here and there.

I'm starting to think that maybe he's not a strong enough personality to overpower JP and JR which are clearly running the show now, that's why he's more of a supporting cast and laid back.

I'm not a drummer either, and I don't think you need to be one in order to make some astute observations about the two drummers and their different attributes.

I'm totally with you on the Outcry example when you say it's buried behind the other instruments. But that is a sonic issue. That is because of the way the music was engineered. Those parts MM played on Outcry are far more intricate, technical, musical and in my opinion better, than anything MP would have played. MP would have played something very similar to what he had been playing for the last decade. So I concur that there is something up with that instrumental section of the song. But it's the mix. The drums were featured more prominently on prior DT records than ADToE. I can't agree that there is "groove" in MP's playing to any extent relative to MM's. As a matter of fact, I can't agree that there is "groove" at all in MP's playing. And one of the reasons for this is because as a general matter, it is simply not part of the styles of music he plays.

Anyway, I respect other peoples' opinions as to which drummer they enjoy more. But honestly-- and this is not necessarily directed at you- some of the descriptions of the two drummers' styles are absurd. There is another post somewhere around here saying that MP was "in your face with technicality (emphasis added)" whereas MM only displays that occasionally, presumably. That is a preposterous assessment of MP's playing. That is the equivalent of a Guns N Roses fan saying "man, Bumblefoot and Buckethead have been good, but they don't demonstrate the technicality that Slash did all the time." MP was never a technical drummer by any stretch of the imagination. MM has always been a musician known for his superb technique on the other hand. In fact, that has even been a criticism of his playing-- that he is only about the chops. It's like if the guy doesn't play single strokes fast enough to beat the record or play a drum fill with a million notes, people think it lacks technique. Again, I'm not talking about which one makes better music. I'm just trying to establish some fundamentals. As a matter of personal opinion, I find MM to be a better drummer. But I find it beyond all serious inquiry that he is way more--not just a little, but way more-- technical and has a better groove.

[gmillerdrake]

I know musical opinions are subjective given individual tastes and interpretations.......but for the life of me I do not understand any of the gripes about Mangini on this album. IMO his playing is remarkable....progressive when its called for and even the 'traditional' beats have a flair and method about them that sets him apart from most others (including MP)

I love the mix, that its more blended with the band rather than the in your face listen to me mix MP needed/wanted/whatever....MM's playing makes me wish he'd been in the band for the SC and BC&SL's era....and era which I believe MP mailed it in.

[BlobVanDam]

I know musical opinions are subjective given individual tastes and interpretations.......but for the life of me I do not understand any of the gripes about Mangini on this album. IMO his playing is remarkable....progressive when its called for and even the 'traditional' beats have a flair and method about them that sets him apart from most others (including MP)

I love the mix, that its more blended with the band rather than the in your face listen to me mix MP needed/wanted/whatever....MM's playing makes me wish he'd been in the band for the SC and BC&SL's era....and era which I believe MP mailed it in.

The mix on TEI wants a word with you. Just as loud as any of MP's drums.

After hearing DT12, I still prefer MP's drum beats overall, as impressive as MM is on the album. Some of MM's beat choices bother me. The man can play anything, which is sort of the problem.

With MM I occasionally feel that his mind is so mathematical that he often makes a beat unnecessarily complex rather than understanding what makes it enjoyable to actually listen to, which happens in parts of IT. Complexity is great and all, I'm just not sure he realizes that us mere mortals don't work at his level.

When he's using his abilities to play balls to the wall fast fills or play more drums together than humanly possible, it's awesome, but when he's using it to play 5 different time signatures at once, it's just not pleasant to listen to. I want to at least feel some kind of beat, even if I don't understand it without repeated listens.

And the half time end chorus of TEI annoys me just a bit. I feel like the song should be ramping up for an outro (sort of like it does right after), but the slow chorus hurts the momentum for me. The big fill in the middle rocks though. That's the stuff I've been enjoying most from MM.

[7StringedBeast]

I don't know, I think Mangini knows when to do simple stuff though.   For example the fill right before the first chorus in The Bigger Picture.  It's so simple but it's fantastic and a perfect lead in to the chorus.

The more I listen to his playing the more I realize he isn't going crazy too often.  He really does pick a good beat for the songs and there is a lot of groove going on in a lot of his parts.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know, I think Mangini knows when to do simple stuff though.   For example the fill right before the first chorus in The Bigger Picture.  It's so simple but it's fantastic and a perfect lead in to the chorus.

The more I listen to his playing the more I realize he isn't going crazy too often.  He really does pick a good beat for the songs and there is a lot of groove going on in a lot of his parts.

I wasn't saying he does it often, it's mostly just in IT where they rip loose. I'm fine with about 98% of his drumming. Just a few snippets that irk me slightly. But there are plenty of sections where he plays something simple and fitting. Some people were complaining about not being wowed by his drumming when TEI was released, but he plays what's called for, and plays it well.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

By the way, anyone with the box set listen to the BTV stem? It made me enjoy the drumming on that tune that much more.

I wish they had done this for all the songs.

[Cygnus17]

He did an excellent job.  Amazing fills without  taking over the song, so to speak.  His playing fits into the song, while being amazingly technical at the same time.  Reminds me of Peart in a number of places on the album.  Less in your face than Portnoy four sure, and it works.

[puppyonacid]

I never thought I'd say this but I miss Portnoy. MM is amazing, but now I realized that I liked MP's flashy, in-your-face style (minding the overuse of fills). I recently picked up The Whirlwind and found MP's playing very enjoyable.

Maybe I cannot appreciate or cannot hear all the hidden gems in Manginis playing. With DT12 i was hoping for moments like the polyrythm section in the beggining of OTBOA 

Could you please elaborate on this? I keep hearing about MP's "in your face" playing, but I do not understand what this exactly means relative to MM's playing. I don't find MM to be any less "flashy" (if you want to use that term) or intense. In fact, I find it quite the OPPOSITE.

I'm getting the impression people are just using "in-your-face playing" as a generic term meant to be understood as an overall appreciation for MP's individual sound as a musician. I can totally appreciate that, if that is in fact what you meant.

On a totally separate note.... lol @ the guy in the other thread who still thinks MM is 'holding back' in his playing.

Upfront I wanted to say I have absoluetly no idea about drums

MP's sound is one thing, I'm not talking exactly about production where Portnoy was much more "upfront". This is one factor, but I can look past that.

I'll try to explain on an example, which I think embeds both production and style "issues": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SFtwm6xlrQ .

On the CD this fragment and all nuances of his playing are burried behind the rest of the instruments. So thats one - sonic - factor. And even though I consider this clip amazing, where I believe he hits almost everything on his set and is visibly meticulously planned to be in sync musically... there's something missing. I'm no Portnoy fanboy, I must emphasize, but there is some sort of undefined groove  that leads his drumming. Like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wG3EcFx6n8 . Nothing mindblowing, but I'm honestly enjoying it more than Mangini on DT12.

EDIT: As contrast, in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00GXRzoJbiI . I find Mike's playing way more dynamic (even taking in account a different style) with just enough variation to keep the listener engaged. And You can also clearly feel his style soaking through here and there.

I'm starting to think that maybe he's not a strong enough personality to overpower JP and JR which are clearly running the show now, that's why he's more of a supporting cast and laid back.

MP was never a technical drummer by any stretch of the imagination.

Sorry but that is a ridiculous statement. Maybe by todays standards there's some truth in that - but even that's a stretch. MP has always been a technical and technically gifted drummer. He didn't win all those awards back in the 90's for nothing you know.

And to the OP - Love MM. Always have, always will. I'm personally not overly keen on the sound of the drums on DT12 but, the drumming itself mindblowing in places.

[Kotowboy]

If we're talking technical ability then MP had loads - his playing was always smack on the beat and his fills were fluid. His drum solo in As I Am for instance.

However - technique wise - i've heard from a few drum people that he has bad technique. Using two different sticks and that kind of thing.

[puppyonacid]

I don't see how it can be called bad technique since it never stopped him doing anything. I can't see anything in his technique that I would say is bad; but I'm no drummer.

I think he was technically minded though. I have Liquid Drum Theater and he breaks his parts down from a meter perspective and you know, you have to be quite technically minded to think that way. Sure he may not be on the same technical plain as MM, but that doesn't make him not technical.

I think it's fair to say that during the early to mid 90's he was widely regarded by many as a highly technical drummer.