Mike Mangini on DT12

[ishak540m]

This is the same argument as people who say that John Petrucci is "too technical and plays without feeling."  It's completely subjective.

[rumborak]

On a slight tangent, somebody mentioned MP's awards as corroborative evidence. Not that I want to belittle MP's achievements, but for the most part those were "best progressive rock drummer". In the years he got those ('95-'06), he was almost competitionless. Peart wasn't playing, Harrison was unknown etc. It's actually surprising that they handed out that award at all, given how sparsely populated the genre was in those days.

I suppose, but I would argue that, had their bands been more well known, drummers like Nick D'Virgilio or Chris Maiitland would've made for decent competition to MP during that stretch of years.

-Marc.

Maybe. Nick is an excellent drummer, but he was never particularly flashy. He was more trying to be the Phil Collins of Spock's Beard, providing a package of great drumming and backing vocals. It would have been great for Modern Drummer to appreciate something like that. But yeah, on top of that nobody really knew Spock's Beard.
Chris Maitland is great too, but PT back in those days barely classified as prog (more psychedelic). Only with In Absentia did people start noticing that band, and Harrison's drumming on Sound of Muzak made a lot of jaws drop. It is to this day IMHO one of the (if not THE) top examples of prog drumming.

[Onno]

I just got back from MM's drum clinic. My god, that man is an absolute genius. There's more things to the way he plays than I ever imagined. His explanations of why he plays the way he plays and how he learned to play so well were fantastic. That made me realise there's a whole dimension to his drumming that I hadn't seen yet; every single hit is very well placed and fits like a glove to the music. He tries to make the drums themselves be music, not just the beat, however awesome that beat may be. Though I didn't like DT12 very much, that clinic made me get excited for it again and I'm gonna listen some more to it, especially to the drums. My opinion is now that MM's by far the best drummer in the world.

[erwinrafael]

This guy has done some amazing drum covers of some DT 12 songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8x-isEX3Y4&list=UU9f-fw7omKPljTI1vg-E2ew

When you hear the drums more audibly, I think those who are looking for "groove" in Mangini's drum compositions would appreciate them more. This is not even Mangini playing and the drum parts are already sounding amazing. These covers just showed how great the cymbal work is in The Looking Glass and how good the bass work is in Behind the Veil. And of course, how Illumination Theory is one drum masterpiece from end to end.

[erwinrafael]

Mike Mangini has no groove. Right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk

Most of the groove in Mangini's playing is in how he uses the bass and the cymbals. Which, unfortunately, are mixed very low in the DT records.

[Kotowboy]

It's a bit galling when someone has been alive as long as you've been playing drums and they're still better than you

[erwinrafael]

It's a bit galling when someone has been alive as long as you've been playing drums and they're still better than you

Tell me about it. Makes me ashamed to even call myself a drummer. 

[Kotowboy]

I started when I was 15 and i'm 35 now but I never really practiced 8 hours a day like these guys must have.

I was never into rudiments. I'm way more into feel and playing for the song than being fast or flashy.

Steve White from Paul Weller / Style Council was my idol growing up. Plus his brother Alan from Oasis.

Therefore I was more into groove and feel than having bags of tricks.

[Kilgore Trout]

Except some spots in Illumination theory, I've yet to find any pattern I love in DT12. I think Mangini's writing for drums is uninteresting, to say the least, and was really disappointed after all the hype. I'm like "ok, it does the job". Nothing more. To me pretty much everything is uninventive drum writing (but well executed). It lacks character.
A lot of people are saying that he's amazing, but they can't seem to point out where he actually shows how amazing he is (in DT). Not that I think drummers need to be showy, but one should be able to point out examples of ideas, imaginative patterns, nice subtleties, pattern changes and such, from such an excellent drummer, not only vague generalities about his playing.
Of course, in the end, it's a matter of taste.

[Kotowboy]

Portnoy was a show-er. Mangini is much more about playing what the song requires.

Maybe on the next album - they'll write a crazy proggy instrumental and he'll go bananas but this album is more about being concise and they maybe

all decided that being excessively flashy was not the way to go and MM reigned it in a bit.

He can obviously go insane when he needs to - but I just don't think he's a lead drums guy like MP was.

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't get that argument. You can be interesting without being a shower - even more, the best drummers are the one who can write and play interesting patterns, that will add something to the music, when they don't have the musical space to "show off".
Songs don't "require" anything. They are what the musicians make they to be. And they aren't just two modes for drumming, empty or flashy. You can play in a restrained way while making lot of stuff happen from a musical point of view.

[King Postwhore]

I don't get that argument. You can be interesting without being a shower - even more, the best drummers are the one who can write and play interesting patterns, that will add something to the music, when they don't have the musical space to "show off".
Songs don't "require" anything. They are what the musicians make they to be. And they aren't just two modes for drumming, empty or flashy. You can play in a restrained way while making lot of stuff happen from a musical point of view.

Completely agree.  Sometimes it's just a cool little shuffle or shadowing in a simple beat or a quiet moment of the song that connects to you.

[nikatapi]

I feel that once again the production doesn't do MM justice. He plays some amazing stuff, especially some cross hihat and ride patterns which are very cool. His cymbals are a bit low again and don't have the same impact on the sound as we were used to with MP.

He is very different from MP and i can understand that some people prefer MP's playing, even i do on some songs, but i think that the best is yet to come with MM.

If only they somehow improve his sound, right now its 3/3 on mediocre drum sounds with DT, which is very unfortunate.

[Sycsa]

If only they somehow improve his sound, right now its 3/3 on mediocre drum sounds with DT, which is very unfortunate.

And all of them sound very different. It's like he hasn't found his DT sound yet.

[nikatapi]

If only they somehow improve his sound, right now its 3/3 on mediocre drum sounds with DT, which is very unfortunate.

And all of them sound very different. It's like he hasn't found his DT sound yet.

Yeah exactly, and to wildly speculate, i think that MM doesn't have a clear direction about his sound from a technical point of view, so maybe he is very open to the suggestions and direction that each producer-engineer gives him. He might be the only great drummer i know in metal and rock where he doesn't have a distinct sound, if you think about other drummers of his caliber, most of the times you can recognize them just by their sound. Virgil Donati, Mike Portnoy, Gavin Harrison etc, they all have their distinctive sound.

It's really a shame to me, because i really like his drumming, it's very different from the usual but with the current production issues you really have to focus in order to get some of the stuff he is doing.

[BlobVanDam]

Portnoy was a show-er. Mangini is much more about playing what the song requires.

I see a few people say this one (or maybe it's just you repeating it endlessle), but it's completely bogus. Both of them play what the song calls for, especially MP. There are just so many examples of MP dialing it back and keeping a nice beat and letting the song breathe, or rock, and it always complements the band.
And there are also a few examples on DT12 where I wish MM would do the same thing, and just be a bit more laid back, instead of making something sound over technical and losing the beat in the process.

[erwinrafael]

A lot of people are saying that he's amazing, but they can't seem to point out where he actually shows how amazing he is (in DT). Not that I think drummers need to be showy, but one should be able to point out examples of ideas, imaginative patterns, nice subtleties, pattern changes and such, from such an excellent drummer, not only vague generalities about his playing.
Of course, in the end, it's a matter of taste.

Listen to the bass and cymbals work in Lost Not Forgotten. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk Listen to how they are carrying the song with the patterns and how they sync perfectly with what's happening with the other instruments in the song. Specially in the long instrumental section. It's actually an amazing piece of drumming that shows how you drum to complement the other instruments.

[Podaar]

I think MM is great, I really do, and his drumming on DT12 and on LALP are great fun, but (you knew there was going to be a caveat didn't you) I'd like him to steal MP's drum kit or have DW sponsor him and design something custom for him. I really think his playing could benefit from a different sound. As a non-drummer I have a hard time putting a finger on exactly what's not there but I like the fatter(?) sound of DW and Tama sets.

Also, there are times when MP used to go all Keith Moon and sound like he just pushed his kit down a long flight of stairs. I miss some of that kind of playing. 

[sneakyblueberry]

I feel MM's drum sound is not up to par with past DT records, have to wait for the cd to make final determination but so far I am disappointed. They almost sound electronic to me, and the cymbal hits are almost inaudible.... I keep coming back to the snare sound also, just sounds like another tom most of the time, and hi-hat is not very distinctive, again will reserve final judgment after listening to cd on nice system.

This, completely.  His snare sound is compressed to shit.  Its easily the worst DT drum sound since I&W.  I think with MP producing we were always guaranteed a great drum sound, MM clearly doesn't have the same level of influence.  There's no way any self-respecting drummer would let a mud drum mix like that slip past. 

[Sycsa]

I think MM is great, I really do, and his drumming on DT12 and on LALP are great fun, but (you knew there was going to be a caveat didn't you) I'd like him to steal MP's drum kit or have DW sponsor him and design something custom for him. I really think his playing could benefit from a different sound. As a non-drummer I have a hard time putting a finger on exactly what's not there but I like the fatter(?) sound of DW and Tama sets.

Also, there are times when MP used to go all Keith Moon and sound like he just pushed his kit down a long flight of stairs. I miss some of that kind of playing. 

You really think that a top of the line brand like Pearl is simply unable to produce a kit that could match the sound of a Tama or a DW kit? The problem lies with the production, the setup, the mix and the mastering way sooner than with the actual drums themselves.

[rumborak]

I actually wouldn't mind if MM pared down his kit somewhat. Especially for live, you can barely see the guy.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Not sure what you think he should remove exactly that is obstructing your view of him....unless it's that snare in the center.

[sneakyblueberry]

Its all well and good when you're front and centre

[1neeto]

I agree that MM got more creative freedom with ADToE than people give him credit for. Like someone told me a long time ago, JP pretty much gave MM a coloring book and told him he can use as many different colors as he want, but don't color outside the lines.

As for MM on DT12, he was amazing, I just wish that he uses a different snare next time. My god that snare almost ruins the album!

[sneakyblueberry]

Its not the snare itself, its probably a great sounding snare, its just been mixed badly and compressed to shit

[1neeto]

Its not the snare itself, its probably a great sounding snare, its just been mixed badly and compressed to shit

Sounds triggered like the I&W snare, but worse.

[sneakyblueberry]

Yeah it does.  But thats not the drum itself making that sound, its an issue with the mixing.  MP DT always had a great drum sound (post I&W + ACOS) because he always had a hand in the mixing/production.  MM doesn't have that level of influence, so the drum sound suffered.

[1neeto]

Yeah it does.  But thats not the drum itself making that sound, its an issue with the mixing.  MP DT always had a great drum sound (post I&W + ACOS) because he always had a hand in the mixing/production.  MM doesn't have that level of influence, so the drum sound suffered.

Isn't actually an issue with the mastering? Either way, DT really needs to hire a producer (Prater? LOL).

[Mat JB]

Am I the only one who likes the DT12 snare sound? I find that it has a pleasing thickness and punch. Images And Words nostalgia may be heavily informing my opinion though 

I enjoy Mike's performance on the album. 3:29 in Illumination Theory is just so cool.

[Onno]

Its not the snare itself, its probably a great sounding snare, its just been mixed badly and compressed to shit

No it's not. I went to one of MM's clinic where he used the same snare, and it sounded almost exactly the same as on the album. However, it is true that it sounds too compressed on the album. It sounded a bit better at the clinic.

[sneakyblueberry]

Its not the snare itself, its probably a great sounding snare, its just been mixed badly and compressed to shit

No it's not. I went to one of MM's clinic where he used the same snare, and it sounded almost exactly the same as on the album. However, it is true that it sounds too compressed on the album. It sounded a bit better at the clinic.

Thats what I get for using silly subjective words like 'great!' Theres no denying that the drum mix is smaaaaverage.

[BlobVanDam]

Its not the snare itself, its probably a great sounding snare, its just been mixed badly and compressed to shit

No it's not. I went to one of MM's clinic where he used the same snare, and it sounded almost exactly the same as on the album. However, it is true that it sounds too compressed on the album. It sounded a bit better at the clinic.

It also sounds much better on the HDTracks version, without the compression taking the attack out of it, so I'd expect it to sound better at a clinic too.

[Onno]

Yeah, well, I can't say I dislike the snare, but I just don't like the loud production on the CD, which is the main cause for the bad sounding snare I guess. I liked his snare sound at the clinic. It isn't my favourite DT snare sound though.

[erwinrafael]

Portnoy was a show-er. Mangini is much more about playing what the song requires.

I see a few people say this one (or maybe it's just you repeating it endlessle), but it's completely bogus. Both of them play what the song calls for, especially MP. There are just so many examples of MP dialing it back and keeping a nice beat and letting the song breathe, or rock, and it always complements the band.
And there are also a few examples on DT12 where I wish MM would do the same thing, and just be a bit more laid back, instead of making something sound over technical and losing the beat in the process.

At what point did MM lose a beat in the DT 12 album?