What if...?

[SeRoX]

Of course just a thought.

If you find this upcoming album "pretty bad" for the DT standart do you blame MM for this? Not that I think that way but what I see from the net, especially from youtube, regarding two singles, people tend to blame MM, not the majority but these people here and there. MM is on the table for this case because he is the new member, probably he was always there while making the album, in other words this album will reflect what he adds to DT.

[Implode]

If you find the current DT sound unenjoyable, it'd make much more sense to blame JP.

[BlobVanDam]

This album is more of a whole band effort than any of their other recent albums, so if I didn't like it, it wouldn't be anyone's fault in particular. While it may seem easy to use the new guy as the scapegoat, it doesn't make sense. MM wouldn't have that big an influence on the songwriting, despite having a much greater presence.

[hefdaddy42]

If you find the current DT sound unenjoyable, it'd make much more sense to blame JP.

[SeRoX]

This album is more of a whole band effort than any of their other recent albums, so if I didn't like it, it wouldn't be anyone's fault in particular. While it may seem easy to use the new guy as the scapegoat, it doesn't make sense. MM wouldn't have that big an influence on the songwriting, despite having a much greater presence.

Yeah this. But you know people on the net. They alreay start bitching. There are many comments blaming MM  and "plsss portnoy come back".

[Mosh]

Yea, definitely JP's fault if the new album sucks. 

Actually, I don't like when a single person gets blamed for an entire band effort. Yes there's obviously going to be a driving force; in this case it's JP and before it was usually MP, but it's not like the rest of the band is playing this stuff against their will. The entire band should be held responsible if the new album is no good.

[obscure]

I wouldn't .. but yeah.. I can see lots of people putting the blame on MM....

Thankfully that's not gonna happen 

[Zydar]

If you find the current DT sound unenjoyable, it'd make much more sense to blame JP.

Yes. He is the main songwriter and sole producer. Can't see why MM would be to blame.

[ronrule]

Only reason I would blame him is if there were something about the drumming that was a deal-breaker (and I do have some criticisms of Mangini's drum compositions, but they are not deal-breakers). But even then I'd be tempted to blame the producer/main songwriter.

[MoraWintersoul]

I wouldn't .. but yeah.. I can see lots of people putting the blame on MM....

[?]

This album is more of a whole band effort than any of their other recent albums, so if I didn't like it, it wouldn't be anyone's fault in particular. While it may seem easy to use the new guy as the scapegoat, it doesn't make sense. MM wouldn't have that big an influence on the songwriting, despite having a much greater presence.

[efx]

If the album would be "bad" and MM would be blamed it'd be like 1997 when tons of people jumped on Derek for ruining FII. God, the hatred some people spewed on that man.

[JiM-Xtreme]

Bottom line is, JP is once again the sole producer (please correct me if I'm wrong, I know he was the sole producer on the last album), so it will mostly be down to him if the album sound turns out being a little "off" or displeasing to the fans.

I know they've tried to be much more collaborative following MP's departure, but JP has always been the main composer/lyricist, and he's undoubtedly the one who has the final say on any matters pertaining to the album's musical direction (assuming that there may have been one or two disagreements along the way, minor or otherwise).

Blaming MM for something like that would be just senseless. The guy is an absolute machine, but ultimately he's just there to play drums. Just because he's now "fully integrated" into the creative process doesn't mean he's going to just suddenly steer the ship in a completely different direction.

[phentalmyst]

If the album would be "bad" and MM would be blamed it'd be like 1997 when tons of people jumped on Derek for ruining FII. God, the hatred some people spewed on that man.

true, but i'd imagine derek was more involved in the songwriting process than MM. i mean, derek basically wrote all of LITS. i don't think there's a song that MM has written so much of on the new album, at least, im not aware of any.

[Kotowboy]

It's the producer's job to make the album sound the way he wants it to.

[Kotowboy]

If the album would be "bad" and MM would be blamed it'd be like 1997 when tons of people jumped on Derek for ruining FII. God, the hatred some people spewed on that man.

true, but i'd imagine derek was more involved in the songwriting process than MM. i mean, derek basically wrote all of LITS. i don't think there's a song that MM has written so much of on the new album, at least, im not aware of any.

Derek > Kevin for my money.

[Daso]

The direction that the band took in the ToT-BC&SL era has been always placed as MP's influence over the band's sound. ADToE was how DT sounds without MP. If I didn't enjoy ADToE and liked the late-MP era better, and DT12 came out as bad, I wouldn't blame MM for the album being bad, but I'd blame the absence of MP, since he was the one who made the band go in the direction that I enjoyed.

This is not my case, though, since ADToE is at least in my Top 4 DT albums, and I'm more than sure I will like DT12 even more. But in case I didn't enjoy the album, I wouldn't blame it on MM either. He is in charge of the drums and the rhythm section pretty much derives off him. The only way to blame him would be not liking the album because the rhythmic part is bad.

[Lowdz]

It would make as much sense to blame MM as if you bought a new car and it drove like a bag of shit, and you blamed the guy who sprayed the paint on it.

[theseoafs]

I would blame JP and JR, since basically everyone in the band who's done an interview has claimed they're the bands primary composers.  Of course, I'm not anticipating the album will be bad (since we've got two songs from the album that I think are very good), so this is a non-issue for me personally.

[Madman Shepherd]

Actually if I don't like the album I'm just going to blame Mike Portnoy

[MoraWintersoul]

Actually if I don't like the album I'm just going to blame Mike Portnoy

[Outcrier]

...the rest of the world"

[JoeG]

Actually if I don't like the album I'm just going to blame Mike Portnoy

Never Enough!

[Kotowboy]

MM had nothing to do with writing A Dramatic Turn of Events and I can still listen to that album 2 years later whereas Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds didn't have anywhere near that longevity.

[BlobVanDam]

MM had nothing to do with writing A Dramatic Turn of Events and I can still listen to that album 2 years later whereas Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds didn't have anywhere near that longevity.

Total opposite for me. Haven't even listened to ADTOE as an album since 2011. SC/BCASL have had much more longevity for me.

But of course I don't blame that on MM, or on MP's departure either. In terms of rankings, I rank them all similarly anyway. DT never stick 100% to the same style each album, so some albums just grab you more than others.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Of course just a thought.

If you find this upcoming album "pretty bad" for the DT standart do you blame MM for this? Not that I think that way but what I see from the net, especially from youtube, regarding two singles, people tend to blame MM, not the majority but these people here and there. MM is on the table for this case because he is the new member, probably he was always there while making the album, in other words this album will reflect what he adds to DT.

There have already been callings for MP to come back after AFTR was released, as you've noted. A lot of these people probably aren't even fans of the band anymore now that MP is gone. Or if they are, they are a minority of people who enjoyed 8VM, SC and BCSL more than ADToE, or who were totally oblivious to the quality issues in that trio. Being the new guy is difficult; this is especially true when you replace a guy like MP. It doesn't matter how rational it is-- you will hear the calling for MP to come back if this new album is not received well by the fan base. The reality is that out of all the members, MM likely had the LEAST amount of input with respect to the compositions. The only thing he totally owned is the drumming. MM is still a relatively new addition and it is highly unlikely that he would have had anywhere near the amount of compositional input as JR and JP.

Ultimately, if the album is not good to these people they will hold MM responsible because they think 'hey, everything was going fine until MP left and now the output isn't good to me.' At a certain point you have to know which opinions to respect and give weight to, and which to completely ignore because its holders are either making dishonest arguments/assessments or just talking out of their ass.

I would laugh off any calls for MM's head if the album isn't received well.

[425]

Or if they are, they are a minority of people who enjoyed 8VM, SC and BCSL more than ADToE, or who were totally oblivious to the quality issues in that trio.

Or they disagree that there are quality issues in that trio. The only one of those that, in my opinion, has a quality issue more significant than the minor flaws of most DT albums is BCSL. I probably do like ADTOE better than those three, but I think it would be close with Octavarium.

I do agree with your verdict. Any calls for Mangini's firing are silly. I just wanted to point out that you treated 8VM/SC/BCSL as though they all had obvious quality issues and anyone who disagrees is "totally oblivious" to these issues. As though, I don't know, the discs were made of a cheaper material than the ones for the other albums or something, as opposed to you not liking the music on those albums as much as the music on the other albums.

[BlobVanDam]

Or if they are, they are a minority of people who enjoyed 8VM, SC and BCSL more than ADToE, or who were totally oblivious to the quality issues in that trio.

Or they disagree that there are quality issues in that trio. The only one of those that, in my opinion, has a quality issue more significant than the minor flaws of most DT albums is BCSL. I probably do like ADTOE better than those three, but I think it would be close with Octavarium.

I do agree with your verdict. Any calls for Mangini's firing are silly. I just wanted to point out that you treated 8VM/SC/BCSL as though they all had obvious quality issues and anyone who disagrees is "totally oblivious" to these issues. As though, I don't know, the discs were made of a cheaper material than the ones for the other albums or something, as opposed to you not liking the music on those albums as much as the music on the other albums.

I agree. I easily prefer SC and 8V to ADTOE, and I think 8V is actually a significantly better album (and that's still only a mid-ranking album for me). It's only BCASL I'd maybe rank lower.

There are no objective quality issues to be "oblivious" to. Other people just disagree with that opinion.

[Dark Castle]

I prefer ADTOE the most, but anybody who says Octavarium is a less than subpar album is nuts.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Or if they are, they are a minority of people who enjoyed 8VM, SC and BCSL more than ADToE, or who were totally oblivious to the quality issues in that trio.

Or they disagree that there are quality issues in that trio. The only one of those that, in my opinion, has a quality issue more significant than the minor flaws of most DT albums is BCSL. I probably do like ADTOE better than those three, but I think it would be close with Octavarium.

I do agree with your verdict. Any calls for Mangini's firing are silly. I just wanted to point out that you treated 8VM/SC/BCSL as though they all had obvious quality issues and anyone who disagrees is "totally oblivious" to these issues. As though, I don't know, the discs were made of a cheaper material than the ones for the other albums or something, as opposed to you not liking the music on those albums as much as the music on the other albums.

Sure. This doesn't really contradict what I said. It goes rather nicely with it. They do (or could) in fact believe there is nothing wrong with those albums. I know those albums have serious song quality issues but I don't think people who enjoy it are oblivious, just to clarify.

[Öxölklöfför]

Yeah this. But you know people on the net. They alreay start bitching. There are many comments blaming MM  and "plsss portnoy come back".

"plsss portnoy come back" really seems to find it's way into almost any DT related post, and has done so ever since MP:s departure. So irritating!

JR: "Take a look at my new app!".
Random poster: "plsss portnoy come back".

[Rhayader]

Nah, I blame Petrucci and Rudess. Petrucci began with those "cookie-monster riffs" around 2004, 2005. Since then he has been composing like that. "The Enemy Inside" is a perfect example. And it is becoming boring for me because in the I&W-Awake era he composed a lot better, not only these riffs.

And I don't like Rudess' taste. I dislike his solos, specially with iPad. I wish he would stop playing iPad and make a real solo or a good melody.

[Ruba]

No, I'm not blaming Mike. He's a great drummer and cool guy, and his role probably won't be that instrumental.

JR is my main "villain". I just prefer pre-JR-albums to post-JR (SDOIT and SC are pretty damn good though). Something happened when he jumped on the board.

But I can't be mad for a man with such a cool beard. And the album isn't out yet.

[AngelBack]

Nah, I blame Petrucci and Rudess. Petrucci began with those "cookie-monster riffs" around 2004, 2005. Since then he has been composing like that. "The Enemy Inside" is a perfect example. And it is becoming boring for me because in the I&W-Awake era he composed a lot better, not only these riffs.

And I don't like Rudess' taste. I dislike his solos, specially with iPad. I wish he would stop playing iPad and make a real solo or a good melody.

Best post of.........never.

[Elite]

I prefer ADTOE the most, but anybody who says Octavarium is a less than subpar album is nuts.

Hi, I'm nuts. Octavarium is my third least favourite Dream Theater album, right after Black Clouds and Train of Thought.