My thoughts on 'Dream Theater' (***SPOILERS***)

[SystematicThought]

I was just thinking if it would be a nice thread to rank the albums based on how they represent the band, but I don't know if it would work or dissolve into a chaotic mess 

[BlobVanDam]

I was just thinking if it would be a nice thread to rank the albums based on how they represent the band, but I don't know if it would work or dissolve into a chaotic mess 

I think the idea of an album representing the band better than another is kind of silly overall. Every album slightly redefines and adds to the sound of a band, and each new album will show the influence from all that came before it.
You could make the argument that the latest album always best represents the band, because it captures the most recent definition of what the band feels represents them (especially in this case given DT's comments about DT12).

[wolven74]

You could make the argument that the latest album always best represents the band, because it captures the most recent definition of what the band feels represents them (especially in this case given DT's comments about DT12)

This has always been the case for me. Each new album that comes out is my favorite of their catalogue for at least 3 months after it's released. Probably because every new album has something unique to distinguish it from the older stuff. It took about 8 months to a year for ADTOE to blend in with the catalogue. And by "blend in" I mean stand out a little less than when brand new.

[ariich]

To me, there are very few redeeming qualities about BC&SL, I really don't get how people like it.

The worst is when people put it above I&W.   

I'm the opposite, I genuinely don't understand how some DT fans can dislike it so much. The last few minutes of ANTR drag on and AROP is not very exciting, but the rest of the album is really damn good.

[noxon]

At least it's better than SC...

[BlackInk]

At least it's better than SC...

Do not tell lies in this sacred place.

[efx]

I think BCSL was a huge improvement over SC while not that stylistically different. The former is a really uneven album though but the peaks are high and frequent enough for me to enjoy a lot of it.

[Meatrose]

Yeah I'm with ariich on this one. BC&SL is actually a middle of the pack album for me. It does belong to the bottom half of the catalog in my book but there are four albums below it. ANTR is pretty good at first but it really goes downhill after the Beautiful Agony part (and drags on for far too long). AROP is quite bad indeed, I have to agree there. Wither is good if you ask me. TSF is a bit repetitive and not very exciting but in my opinion it's not as bad as some people say. TBOT is quite nice (I love John's solo) and TCOT is possibly one of my 10 favorite songs.

[noxon]

For me, both SC and BCSL are very clearcut examples of focusing on the parts that made people hate DT in the first place - technique over songs. They're very technically proficient albums, but on the way there they just lose something important in the song writing, so we end up with songs like Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember that feel disjointed and just lack cohesion. Both albums also very much feel very "DT by numbers", with the exception of certain tracks or sections that just stick out as fresh and original. Unfortunately, the transitions between everything just feels a bit cut and paste for me, and formulaic. That's not to say there's not a lot of redeeming factors on the albums themselves, but there's also a reason why I put them as far behind when it comes to ranking the albums.

And that's the thing - ADTOE didn't feel like this as much, and DT doesn't feel like it at all. DT is songfocused first and foremost. It's melody and riffs. It's not about 100000 notes per second solo exchanges.

[Meatrose]

For me, both SC and BCSL are very clearcut examples of focusing on the parts that made people hate DT in the first place - technique over songs. They're very technically proficient albums, but on the way there they just lose something important in the song writing, so we end up with songs like Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember that feel disjointed and just lack cohesion. Both albums also very much feel very "DT by numbers", with the exception of certain tracks or sections that just stick out as fresh and original. Unfortunately, the transitions between everything just feels a bit cut and paste for me, and formulaic. That's not to say there's not a lot of redeeming factors on the albums themselves, but there's also a reason why I put them as far behind when it comes to ranking the albums.

And that's the thing - ADTOE didn't feel like this as much, and DT doesn't feel like it at all. DT is songfocused first and foremost. It's melody and riffs. It's not about 100000 notes per second solo exchanges.

I couldn't agree more, especially with the bolded part.

[ariich]

I honestly haven't found that with any of DT's albums, and I think it's extremely unfair to say that there was any drive to make songs/solos 100000 notes per second, etc. DT like to write fast and complex sections, because they find it musically interesting, and always have done. If you find the songwriting to be weaker on certain albums, I can appreciate why that feature may become more frustrating for you, or detract from the music more than it otherwise would, but that doesn't mean that the band were writing it for the sake of complex technicality.

[Outcrier]

I honestly haven't found that with any of DT's albums

Well, jokes aside, i think i will enjoy the new album very much then, if it is as you guys say (more songfocused than their last albums).

[JPX]

For me, both SC and BCSL are very clearcut examples of focusing on the parts that made people hate DT in the first place - technique over songs. They're very technically proficient albums, but on the way there they just lose something important in the song writing, so we end up with songs like Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember that feel disjointed and just lack cohesion. Both albums also very much feel very "DT by numbers", with the exception of certain tracks or sections that just stick out as fresh and original. Unfortunately, the transitions between everything just feels a bit cut and paste for me, and formulaic. That's not to say there's not a lot of redeeming factors on the albums themselves, but there's also a reason why I put them as far behind when it comes to ranking the albums.

And that's the thing - ADTOE didn't feel like this as much, and DT doesn't feel like it at all. DT is songfocused first and foremost. It's melody and riffs. It's not about 100000 notes per second solo exchanges.

ADTOE is way more technical than BC&SL. The problem with BC&SL is the format. If you're going to release an album with only 6 songs, then they better all be good and they're just not. To me it's a bookend album with 4 flat songs in the middle (AROP being the best of the 4). So by the math, only 33% of the record is listenable.

We're it me I would have shortened ANTR by a minute or two, gotten rid of Wither, made TSF about half as long, gotten rid of TBOT and written 4 or 5 more 3-6 minute songs. But that's just me 

[puppyonacid]

For me, both SC and BCSL are very clearcut examples of focusing on the parts that made people hate DT in the first place - technique over songs. They're very technically proficient albums, but on the way there they just lose something important in the song writing, so we end up with songs like Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember that feel disjointed and just lack cohesion. Both albums also very much feel very "DT by numbers", with the exception of certain tracks or sections that just stick out as fresh and original. Unfortunately, the transitions between everything just feels a bit cut and paste for me, and formulaic. That's not to say there's not a lot of redeeming factors on the albums themselves, but there's also a reason why I put them as far behind when it comes to ranking the albums.

And that's the thing - ADTOE didn't feel like this as much, and DT doesn't feel like it at all. DT is songfocused first and foremost. It's melody and riffs. It's not about 100000 notes per second solo exchanges.

ADTOE is way more technical than BC&SL. The problem with BC&SL is the format. If you're going to release an album with only 6 songs, then they better all be good and they're just not. To me it's a bookend album with 4 flat songs in the middle (AROP being the best of the 4). So by the math, only 33% of the record is listenable.

We're it me I would have shortened ANTR by a minute or two, gotten rid of Wither, made TSF about half as long, gotten rid of TBOT and written 4 or 5 more 3-6 minute songs. But that's just me 

Nuh uh. Your maths is flawed

Observe

BC&SL is 75 minutes long. ANTR and TCoT total roughly 35 minutes in length. That equates to 46.6% of the album.

This moment of pedanticism was brought to you by the number bore and some letters.

[eviljust]

For me, both SC and BCSL are very clearcut examples of focusing on the parts that made people hate DT in the first place - technique over songs. They're very technically proficient albums, but on the way there they just lose something important in the song writing, so we end up with songs like Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember that feel disjointed and just lack cohesion. Both albums also very much feel very "DT by numbers", with the exception of certain tracks or sections that just stick out as fresh and original. Unfortunately, the transitions between everything just feels a bit cut and paste for me, and formulaic. That's not to say there's not a lot of redeeming factors on the albums themselves, but there's also a reason why I put them as far behind when it comes to ranking the albums.

And that's the thing - ADTOE didn't feel like this as much, and DT doesn't feel like it at all. DT is songfocused first and foremost. It's melody and riffs. It's not about 100000 notes per second solo exchanges.

I couldn't agree more, especially with the bolded part.

Agreed.

[JPX]

For me, both SC and BCSL are very clearcut examples of focusing on the parts that made people hate DT in the first place - technique over songs. They're very technically proficient albums, but on the way there they just lose something important in the song writing, so we end up with songs like Ministry of Lost Souls and A Nightmare to Remember that feel disjointed and just lack cohesion. Both albums also very much feel very "DT by numbers", with the exception of certain tracks or sections that just stick out as fresh and original. Unfortunately, the transitions between everything just feels a bit cut and paste for me, and formulaic. That's not to say there's not a lot of redeeming factors on the albums themselves, but there's also a reason why I put them as far behind when it comes to ranking the albums.

And that's the thing - ADTOE didn't feel like this as much, and DT doesn't feel like it at all. DT is songfocused first and foremost. It's melody and riffs. It's not about 100000 notes per second solo exchanges.

ADTOE is way more technical than BC&SL. The problem with BC&SL is the format. If you're going to release an album with only 6 songs, then they better all be good and they're just not. To me it's a bookend album with 4 flat songs in the middle (AROP being the best of the 4). So by the math, only 33% of the record is listenable.

We're it me I would have shortened ANTR by a minute or two, gotten rid of Wither, made TSF about half as long, gotten rid of TBOT and written 4 or 5 more 3-6 minute songs. But that's just me 

Nuh uh. Your maths is flawed

Observe

BC&SL is 75 minutes long. ANTR and TCoT total roughly 35 minutes in length. That equates to 46.6% of the album.

This moment of pedanticism was brought to you by the number bore and some letters.

Well yes, you're correct in that sense. I was just taking it from a song to album percentage. Obviously it's a good thing that the two best songs are the longest for the sake of enjoyment but it's a shame when I only have two songs from a record on my iPhone. Sometimes I'll look at it and go "wait a minute, where's the rest of the album?" then I remember why.

[puppyonacid]

I'm with the general consenses here for BC&SL.

I can't wholly understand why SC gets the rap it does though. I think  that everything bar PoW stands up as worthy DT songs. SC isn't perhaps the strongest album but I can't understand why it's derided the way it is. Just my opinion though.

[JPX]

I'm with the general consenses here for BC&SL.

I can't wholly understand why SC gets the rap it does though. I think  that everything bar PoW stands up as worthy DT songs. SC isn't perhaps the strongest album but I can't understand why it's derided the way it is. Just my opinion though.

I agree. SC is a weird album in as much as it's the only DT album that I have to be in the right mood for. The rest of their catalogue is something I can listen to anytime. But the fact is that there is a ton of awesome stuff going on in SC, I just think it has a very specifi vibe (dare I say one dinemsional).

[eviljust]

I'm with the general consenses here for BC&SL.

I can't wholly understand why SC gets the rap it does though. I think  that everything bar PoW stands up as worthy DT songs. SC isn't perhaps the strongest album but I can't understand why it's derided the way it is. Just my opinion though.

To me, is just too way bombastic. I mean, it's kinda funny, but is definitely not what I'm expecting from them. I really love ITPOE though.

[Dream Team]

I always have seen BC&SL as their most representative album...

Allright, I'm puzzled. Hoping he was joking honestly, 'cuz to me BC&SL is definitely their worst album EVER. I mean, I'm pretty sure they can't do something more disappointing than that. But maybe that's just me.

WDADU

Even if you don't like WDADU, it can't possibly be considered "disappointing". Young kids making their first record without any $, I'd say it was a rousing success when looked at in that light. Now Falling Into Infinity, talk about disappointing . . . 

[BlobVanDam]

I always have seen BC&SL as their most representative album...

Allright, I'm puzzled. Hoping he was joking honestly, 'cuz to me BC&SL is definitely their worst album EVER. I mean, I'm pretty sure they can't do something more disappointing than that. But maybe that's just me.

WDADU

Even if you don't like WDADU, it can't possibly be considered "disappointing". Young kids making their first record without any $, I'd say it was a rousing success when looked at in that light. Now Falling Into Infinity, talk about disappointing . . . 

I rank FII as my 4th favourite DT album, just behind IaW. No disappointment there for me. If FII can be considered disappointing, I don't see how WDADU isn't. Without any doubt their worst album to me.

[eviljust]

Even if you don't like WDADU, it can't possibly be considered "disappointing". Young kids making their first record without any $, I'd say it was a rousing success when looked at in that light. Now Falling Into Infinity, talk about disappointing . . . 

Considering they cut Raise The Knife and To Live Forever out, yes.

Edit: I meant Speak To Me, I was listening to To Live Forever, am I forgiven?

[jayvee3]

I always have seen BC&SL as their most representative album...

Allright, I'm puzzled. Hoping he was joking honestly, 'cuz to me BC&SL is definitely their worst album EVER. I mean, I'm pretty sure they can't do something more disappointing than that. But maybe that's just me.

WDADU

Even if you don't like WDADU, it can't possibly be considered "disappointing". Young kids making their first record without any $, I'd say it was a rousing success when looked at in that light. Now Falling Into Infinity, talk about disappointing . . . 

Oooh, see, I love FII. Yes, it has a couple of stinkers on it, which would have been far better left off, and replaced with the excellent 'Speak To Me'. And yes, the 'You or Me' demo was better than what ended up on the album, and if 'Hollow Years' had that AMAZING live solo in the middle, it would be a top 10 song for me. But the highs of that album are incredible - Lines in the Sand is in my top 5 songs, and Peruvian skies, Hollow years (even without the solo), Hells kitchen (still my fave instrumental) and the closer in Trial of Tears, are some of my favourite pieces in DT's catalogue. But the thing that album has, is a certain feel and sense of epic and groove to it that I can't quite explain, other than saying it has a feel of 'sweeping emotion' if that makes any sense.. Even tracks which are often given a hard time like New Millennium and Anna Lee, convey this feeling, when listening to the album as a whole.. Anyway, sorry to get off topic - looking forward to DT12 to see what the lads come up with next! 

[efx]

I agree with everything jayvee3 said. FII has a special sound to it that I've always appreciated though I initially hated it upon buying it back in 97. But now, it is probably my 3rd or 4th favorite dt album.

[robwebster]

I'm with the general consenses here for BC&SL.

I can't wholly understand why SC gets the rap it does though. I think  that everything bar PoW stands up as worthy DT songs. SC isn't perhaps the strongest album but I can't understand why it's derided the way it is. Just my opinion though.

I agree. SC is a weird album in as much as it's the only DT album that I have to be in the right mood for. The rest of their catalogue is something I can listen to anytime. But the fact is that there is a ton of awesome stuff going on in SC, I just think it has a very specifi vibe (dare I say one dinemsional).

I kind of agree with both of these - I think Systematic Chaos is one-dimensional, and deliberately so, but it's a dimension that's often absent from the rest of DT's stuff. I can see why Systematic Chaos was loathed at the time; if you've waited two years for the next dose of DT, and that's not your preferred brand, of course you're not going to like it, and it's impossible to know how long that aspect of their identity is going to endure. Three albums later, though, I think we're at a point where it's ceased to be dangerous. It's just a big, frothy comic book album, and I think the band's oeuvre is way, way richer for it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think DT have ever been the group of pensive philosophers that some of their fans try to will into existence - all their albums are a little less "meditation," a little more "malarkey" - but I don't think they've ever been as solidly whimsical as they were on SC.

I'm glad they made Systematic Chaos in 2007, rather than a more classic Dream Theater album. They expanded their identity, rather than restating it as I'd argue they did on the following two albums. (2011, by necessity, to great effect - 2009, I think possibly more out of fatigue, and less compelling for me.)

[JPX]

I'm with the general consenses here for BC&SL.

I can't wholly understand why SC gets the rap it does though. I think  that everything bar PoW stands up as worthy DT songs. SC isn't perhaps the strongest album but I can't understand why it's derided the way it is. Just my opinion though.

I agree. SC is a weird album in as much as it's the only DT album that I have to be in the right mood for. The rest of their catalogue is something I can listen to anytime. But the fact is that there is a ton of awesome stuff going on in SC, I just think it has a very specifi vibe (dare I say one dinemsional).

I kind of agree with both of these - I think Systematic Chaos is one-dimensional, and deliberately so, but it's a dimension that's often absent from the rest of DT's stuff. I can see why Systematic Chaos was loathed at the time; if you've waited two years for the next dose of DT, and that's not your preferred brand, of course you're not going to like it, and it's impossible to know how long that aspect of their identity is going to endure. Three albums later, though, I think we're at a point where it's ceased to be dangerous. It's just a big, frothy comic book album, and I think the band's oeuvre is way, way richer for it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think DT have ever been the group of pensive philosophers that some of their fans try to will into existence - all their albums are a little less "meditation," a little more "malarkey" - but I don't think they've ever been as solidly whimsical as they were on SC.

I'm glad they made Systematic Chaos in 2007, rather than a more classic Dream Theater album. They expanded their identity, rather than restating it as I'd argue they did on the following two albums. (2011, by necessity, to great effect - 2009, I think possibly more out of fatigue, and less compelling for me.)

You make a really good point in regards to expectations around release time. Every DT album is built up to break new ground and touch on every aspect of their sound - so when it's one dimensional like SC (and Tot to a degree) I can see how it leaves you with a negative reaction.

As such, SC is probably one of those albums that ages well - when you as the listener no longer ask anything from it.

[nikatapi]

So here's another question, what other song do you think would be a good choice for a single?

[Meatrose]

So here's another question, what other song do you think would be a good choice for a single?

The Bigger Picture would be good though there are several viable candidates. The Looking Glass, Surrender To Reason and Along For The Ride would probably also be good choices from what I remember.

[lyfeternl]

So here's another question, what other song do you think would be a good choice for a single?

The Bigger Picture would be good though there are several viable candidates. The Looking Glass, Surrender To Reason and Along For The Ride would probably also be good choices from what I remember.

How hard is it to remember the songs...? Is it a nightmare?

[aprilethereal]

Props to you for making the most forced joke ever

[JPX]

Props to you for making the most forced joke ever

Michael Scott: Can you make that straighter?
Phyllis Lapin: Did you plan that?
Michael Scott: [as he looks at his notes] No.
Pam Beesly: [Pam reads off the notes] "Can you make that straighter? That job looks hard. You should put your mouth on that." How can you even use that one naturally?
Michael Scott: Blowing up balloons, I thought.

[puppyonacid]

I think DT albums seem to be viewed as puzzling upon release. There are excpetions like Scenes. But looking back, reception can often be viewed as unfavourable amongst fans. Strangely though, reviews in the secular press have been consitantly good according to Rich in Lifting Shadows.

I think the key is, as each album drifts in to becoming part of the bigger picture and viewed in the context of their back catalogue then they tend to make mroe sense.

Instead of 12 diverse songs on one album, we have 12 diverse albums that make up a greater whole. On that basis I find it difficult to argue against BC&SL being anything but their weakest release. Again a subjective opinion but it just kinda sticks out to me. SC makes a lot more sense when stacked up as part of the bigger picture. DT albums are often best viewed with the gift of hindsight and ironically are judged better when they have 1 or 2 newer albums in front of them. That said, I'm interested then to see how the new album will fare.

If the trend stays the same, fans will hate it for a year or two then love it. Just my view.

[Jaffa]

If the trend stays the same, fans will hate it for a year or two then love it. Just my view.

I think ADTOE already broke this trend. 

[Dream Team]

Hard to believe that JM is playing some great stuff, AND it's AUDIBLE? Never thought I would hear that again on a DT record. Great news.

So Mangini is a "monster" on this album. Well, that was pretty much what I expected the day they hired him. My question is: are his parts also creative and catchy like MP's were? That's the real test in IMO. As a guy who formerly held drumming speed records, I'm also looking for him to push the envelope on the double-bass speed. I think MP's fastest was TGD or ANTR?

[7StringedBeast]

To me, there are very few redeeming qualities about BC&SL, I really don't get how people like it.

The worst is when people put it above I&W.   

I'm the opposite, I genuinely don't understand how some DT fans can dislike it so much. The last few minutes of ANTR drag on and AROP is not very exciting, but the rest of the album is really damn good.

I think I'll take a stab at explaining why I personally think BCSL is easily the worst album DT have ever made.  Mostly because I've never put it into clear words before and I think I want to.

For me there are a lot of problems with this album in particular.  Things I have problems with are, the songwriting, the lyrics, production, and structure.   

The Songwriting:
My problem with the songwriting had a lot to do with DT doing heavy in a very modern style.  Gone were the Metallica style riffs and heavy grooves, and in came double bass pedal 16ths and petrucci just holding out some power chords.  Jordan and Myung were completely under utilized across the entirety of the album as well.  This album was all about Petrucci doing pretty boring riffs and Portnoy doing his newer metal style drumming.  A realize this criticism mostly applies to ANTR but, that was a huge chunk of the album.  Also, AROP is just plain unimaginative as a song.  Extremely generic metal sounds and in structure.  To me the songwriting was just incredibly forgettable for this album.  The only redeeming parts of the album were the beautiful agony section, and parts of The Count.

The Lyrics:
Easily the worst lyrics out of all their albums to me.  Every song was so clear in what it was talking about.  It was like reading a newspaper or something.  I hate when lyrics are so straight forward.  None of the songs had anything personal in them except for TBOT but they were extremely straight forward lyrics.  (I know it was for a purpose and I'm not knocking Portnoy for writing them.  I totally get what he was doing and respect it.)  But I just hate when DT write these lyrics that are story telling time with no reflection or ambiguity to them.  Also TCOT lyrics are probably some of the worst lyrics I have ever heard.

Production:
This whole album sounds like trash to me.  Everything is just compressed to all holy hell and it makes it a pain to listen to.  There is just nothing remarkable about the sounds on this album.  Nothing new, nothing good.  It's just all there, up front, in your face in a bad way.  Portnoy's drums are all too loud, and there was no room for Myung or Jordan to be heard (much of this has to do with the actual compositions of the songs though)

Structure:
6 songs, the 2 longest ones were meh for me, everything else was pretty crap.  So here is an album where I can only really listen to 3 of the songs and kind of enjoy them.  This just automatically kills the album for me.  There is zero flow for this album.  Too much of it fell flat for me and I can honestly say I don't think I'll ever listen to the album all the way through ever again. 

Anyways, that is more or less what I think of BCSL.  Some of their albums share some same traits as this one, but to me BCSL is easily the most egregious.

Remember this is just one guy's opinion and my own attempt at explaining in a proper manner why I have a problem with the album.