DT Music Theory Thread

[Mosh]

It alternates between 4/4 and 5/4.

[The Boomr]

Just listened on YouTube. The chorus (at least, in its soft form at the beginning, didn't listen to the later ones) is:

4/4
5/4
4/4
5/4
4/4
4/4
4/4
4/4

EDIT: Myung'd!

[Mosh]

Surrounded has a similar thing, it's in 9/4 mostly but counted as 4+5 or 5+4. There's a video of Portnoy explaining it even.

[theseoafs]

Surrounded is NOT in 9/4. It alternates between 4/4 and 5/4.

[The Boomr]

I would almost wanna say it's grouped as 4/8 and 5/8, at that tempo. Does anyone know what it says in the tab book?

[Laich21DT]

Can someone give an analysis of The Enemy Inside? Time signature, key, whatever.

[The Boomr]

Gar. I would love to analyze the time changes but I can't promise anything because when I get home I'm going to be exhausted, both today and tomorrow, after 10 hour work days. And this weekend I am busy almost the whole time

[Lucidity]

I'm pretty sure Surrounded is 9/4.

[Deve]

Can someone give an analysis of The Enemy Inside? Time signature, key, whatever.

My Time Signature analysis:

From the beginning to 0:40, it's all 4/4

From 0:40-0:54, it goes (4/4, 2/4, 3/16, 9/8, 7/8)x2, 4/4

0:54-2:14 is all 4/4

The instrumental break after chorus 1 (2:14-2:32), it goes 4/4, 5/4, 4/4x3, 5/4, 4/4, 6/4, 4/4x2

2:32-4:15 is all 4/4


Solo section:

4:15-4:30 is the same as the instrumental break after chorus 1 without the two bars of 4 at the end (so 4/4, 5/4, 4/4x3, 5/4, 4/4, 6/4)

4:30-4:43 is 5/4x2, 4/4x5 (This could be different, it depends on how you feel it in your head. Specifically referring to the beat pattern @ 4:36-4:41 is 123,123,12; could be felt differently than 4/4)

4:43-4:54 is 2/4, 3/16, 3/4, 2/4, 3/16, 4/4, 2/4, 3/16, 3/4, 4/4x2

4:54-5:12 is (4/4, 2/4, 3/16, 9/8, 7/8)x2, 4/4x3 (same as 0:40-0:54)

5:12-6:07 is all 4/4

6:08-6:10 (the last two bars of the song) are 3/4, 3/16, 4/4


Obviously none of this is written in stone, but this is how I interpreted it. There could be mistakes as well, of course. Anyways, that was quite the endeavor. Lots of fun though


Edit: Changed the 10/8's to 5/4's as per Mosh's correction.

[theseoafs]

I'm pretty sure Surrounded is 9/4.

Long story short, a "9" at the top of the time signature implies compound time ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_time#Compound_meter ), and Surrounded is simply not in compound meter, since there aren't three beats subdivided into three beats each.  The alternating time signatures are more accurate.

[Mosh]

Surrounded is NOT in 9/4. It alternates between 4/4 and 5/4.

Mike Portnoy disagrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2u1-GiDHyQ A compound meter is implied, but that doesn't mean its set in stone.

I've seen it written in 9/8 too, though that's incorrect and actually kinda hard to read.

As for Enemy Inside, just from listening, I'm gonna guess that the key is B. I probably won't bother learning that one until the book comes out, so don't hold your breath on an analysis from me.

Edit: Without checking, Deve seems right for the most part. But the 10/8s should be 5/4.

[Deve]

Surrounded is NOT in 9/4. It alternates between 4/4 and 5/4.

Mike Portnoy disagrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2u1-GiDHyQ A compound meter is implied, but that doesn't mean its set in stone.

I've seen it written in 9/8 too, though that's incorrect and actually kinda hard to read.

As for Enemy Inside, just from listening, I'm gonna guess that the key is B. I probably won't bother learning that one until the book comes out, so don't hold your breath on an analysis from me.

Edit: Without checking, Deve seems right for the most part. But the 10/8s should be 5/4.

For Surrounded, it really feels like it's alternating between 4/4 and 5/4. Especially at around 1:50 where everything kicks in, the beats that the bass is accenting are 1+3 in the bar of 4/4, which heavily implies 4/4. In the bar of 5/4 after that, the bass accents the 1 and 2, and then kicks in again on the and of 4, the 5, and the and of 5. Since it accents the first two beats, it really feels like a 2+3 rhythm, indicating 5/4.

Edit: did you watch the whole video you linked? He says 9/4 @ around 17 seconds, but then literally 3 seconds later he says "but what it really is is alternating bars of 4/4 and 5/4"

Ah, you're right! I knew that felt weird for some reason. Will change it now.

[Mosh]

Sure, but most of the time 7/4 sounds like it's alternating between 3 and 4. That's just how bigger meters work.

10/8 isn't technically wrong, but it just makes more sense to count as 5.

[Deve]

Sure, but most of the time 7/4 sounds like it's alternating between 3 and 4. That's just how bigger meters work.

10/8 isn't technically wrong, but it just makes more sense to count as 5.

But with 9/4, there are 3 beats in a measure, and those three beats contain 3 pulses each (as theseoafs said). You really can't feel Surrounded like that, given the accent placement within the beats in the song. 7/4 is a completely different beast than 9/4, because it's hybrid time rather than compound time. Hybrid time can be felt in many different ways (ex. with 7/4, you can feel it as 3+2+2 or 2+2+3 or 2+3+2, or as you said 3+4 or 4+3), whereas with compound time it's almost always felt in the same way (ex. 9/4 as 3+3+3). It's simply incorrect to say you feel 9/4 as 4+5, it's just not what the time signature means. That's why it's in 4/4+5/4 rather than 9/4.

[Mosh]

Sure, but most of the time 7/4 sounds like it's alternating between 3 and 4. That's just how bigger meters work.

10/8 isn't technically wrong, but it just makes more sense to count as 5.

But with 9/4, there are 3 beats in a measure, and those three beats contain 3 pulses each (as theseoafs said). You really can't feel Surrounded like that, given the accent placement within the beats in the song. 7/4 is a completely different beast than 9/4, because it's hybrid time rather than compound time. Hybrid time can be felt in many different ways (ex. with 7/4, you can feel it as 3+2+2 or 2+2+3 or 2+3+2, or as you said 3+4 or 4+3), whereas with compound time it's almost always felt in the same way (ex. 9/4 as 3+3+3). It's simply incorrect to say you feel 9/4 as 4+5, it's just not what the time signature means. That's why it's in 4/4+5/4 rather than 9/4.

I understand what you're saying, but 9/4 doesn't always have to be a compound time signature. It can be used as whatever the composer wants it to be. I've even seen instances of 6/8 not being a compound.

[theseoafs]

If you're going to be pedantic about your time signatures (which is exactly what this thread is -- being pedantic about time signatures), then you can't really consider Surrounded as being in 9/4, because it's not. 

[Deve]

Sure, but most of the time 7/4 sounds like it's alternating between 3 and 4. That's just how bigger meters work.

10/8 isn't technically wrong, but it just makes more sense to count as 5.

But with 9/4, there are 3 beats in a measure, and those three beats contain 3 pulses each (as theseoafs said). You really can't feel Surrounded like that, given the accent placement within the beats in the song. 7/4 is a completely different beast than 9/4, because it's hybrid time rather than compound time. Hybrid time can be felt in many different ways (ex. with 7/4, you can feel it as 3+2+2 or 2+2+3 or 2+3+2, or as you said 3+4 or 4+3), whereas with compound time it's almost always felt in the same way (ex. 9/4 as 3+3+3). It's simply incorrect to say you feel 9/4 as 4+5, it's just not what the time signature means. That's why it's in 4/4+5/4 rather than 9/4.

I understand what you're saying, but 9/4 doesn't always have to be a compound time signature. It can be used as whatever the composer wants it to be. I've even seen instances of 6/8 not being a compound.

Yeah for sure, but just because the composer uses it like that doesn't mean he/she is using it correctly. It's like if I said "Dream Theater is great. There all so musically talented". You would understand the statement and what I mean by it, but I'm saying it in an incorrect way because I've spelled "they're" wrong.

Anyways, it's not that huge of a deal. My classical background really makes me a stickler for proper musical notation

[Mosh]

Sure, but most of the time 7/4 sounds like it's alternating between 3 and 4. That's just how bigger meters work.

10/8 isn't technically wrong, but it just makes more sense to count as 5.

But with 9/4, there are 3 beats in a measure, and those three beats contain 3 pulses each (as theseoafs said). You really can't feel Surrounded like that, given the accent placement within the beats in the song. 7/4 is a completely different beast than 9/4, because it's hybrid time rather than compound time. Hybrid time can be felt in many different ways (ex. with 7/4, you can feel it as 3+2+2 or 2+2+3 or 2+3+2, or as you said 3+4 or 4+3), whereas with compound time it's almost always felt in the same way (ex. 9/4 as 3+3+3). It's simply incorrect to say you feel 9/4 as 4+5, it's just not what the time signature means. That's why it's in 4/4+5/4 rather than 9/4.

I understand what you're saying, but 9/4 doesn't always have to be a compound time signature. It can be used as whatever the composer wants it to be. I've even seen instances of 6/8 not being a compound.

Yeah for sure, but just because the composer uses it like that doesn't mean he/she is using it correctly. It's like if I said "Dream Theater is great. There all so musically talented". You would understand the statement and what I mean by it, but I'm saying it in an incorrect way because I've spelled "they're" wrong.

I don't think that's the same, but we've both made our points.

One thing I've always wanted to do is compile a list of DT songs that either stay in the same meter for the entire song or don't have any odd time signatures. I imagine it would be a pretty small list, maybe 1-3 from every album.

[FourthHorseman]

Sure, but most of the time 7/4 sounds like it's alternating between 3 and 4. That's just how bigger meters work.

10/8 isn't technically wrong, but it just makes more sense to count as 5.

But with 9/4, there are 3 beats in a measure, and those three beats contain 3 pulses each (as theseoafs said). You really can't feel Surrounded like that, given the accent placement within the beats in the song. 7/4 is a completely different beast than 9/4, because it's hybrid time rather than compound time. Hybrid time can be felt in many different ways (ex. with 7/4, you can feel it as 3+2+2 or 2+2+3 or 2+3+2, or as you said 3+4 or 4+3), whereas with compound time it's almost always felt in the same way (ex. 9/4 as 3+3+3). It's simply incorrect to say you feel 9/4 as 4+5, it's just not what the time signature means. That's why it's in 4/4+5/4 rather than 9/4.

I understand what you're saying, but 9/4 doesn't always have to be a compound time signature. It can be used as whatever the composer wants it to be. I've even seen instances of 6/8 not being a compound.

Yeah for sure, but just because the composer uses it like that doesn't mean he/she is using it correctly. It's like if I said "Dream Theater is great. There all so musically talented". You would understand the statement and what I mean by it, but I'm saying it in an incorrect way because I've spelled "they're" wrong.

I don't think that's the same, but we've both made our points.

One thing I've always wanted to do is compile a list of DT songs that either stay in the same meter for the entire song or don't have any odd time signatures. I imagine it would be a pretty small list, maybe 1-3 from every album.

Probably less than that! The Silent Man, which is probably the most simple song on Awake, has one bar of 2/4 

[Mosh]

Isn't all of Lifting Shadows in 4? I've only played it a few times, so I'm not sure.

[FourthHorseman]

Mostly, except for when the really heavy part comes in, might be some 4/4 with an "extra" bar of 2 or 3, but I'm not exactly sure.

[theseoafs]

Confirmed: no song on Awake is the same time signature all the way through.  The heavy section of Lifting Shadows is not in 4/4.

[Laich21DT]

Thanks to Deve for the info in TEI.

One thing I've always wanted to do is compile a list of DT songs that either stay in the same meter for the entire song or don't have any odd time signatures. I imagine it would be a pretty small list, maybe 1-3 from every album.

According to my FII tab book, You Not Me, Hollow Years, Take Away My Pain, and Anna Lee are all in 4/4, straight through.

[The Boomr]

I agree with the alternating time signatures, in Surrounded, for sure. That sure is a fast beat to be counting as the quarter note though, I would always think of it as the 8th, so 4/8+5/8 instead of 4/4+5/4 *shrug* I dunno. I guess it's a little too fast for my liking of quarter notes, but also a little too slow for my liking of eighth notes

[showdonttell]

Surrounded is NOT in 9/4. It alternates between 4/4 and 5/4.

Mike Portnoy disagrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2u1-GiDHyQ A compound meter is implied, but that doesn't mean its set in stone.

I agree with Mosh. Though it is correct to say that a compound metre such as 9/4 would traditionally imply three sets of three pulses (3+3+3), nothing is saying we can't break that rule and phrase things differently (4+4+1). It's all how you phrase it.

Consider a common rhythm in 4/4: say we have a bar of two dotted quarter notes and a regular quarter note. Because of the implied accents, you could say that we should phrase it as two bars of 3/8 and a bar of 2/8. Or perhaps a bar of 6/8 and a bar of 1/4. But it is simply easier to put it into a 4/4 metre. Sure, you group the notes in your head as 3+3+2, but organizing it into 4/4 might be easier. Plus you're not constantly writing out changing metres when it can be simplified. The same is true for "Surrounded" -- in stead of constantly switching between 4/4 and 5/4 for that repeating rhythmic phrase, just writing 9/4 and combining the phrase into one bar is more effective and easier to read.

[Cruithne]

Long story short, a "9" at the top of the time signature implies compound time ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_time#Compound_meter )

The rule is that a multiple of 3 over an 8 means compound time.

9/4 isn't compound time. 9/8 is.

The drummer of my last band used to drive me nuts by insisting that 6/8 songs were in 3! Grr.

[The Boomr]

Surrounded is NOT in 9/4. It alternates between 4/4 and 5/4.

Mike Portnoy disagrees. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2u1-GiDHyQ A compound meter is implied, but that doesn't mean its set in stone.

I agree with Mosh. Though it is correct to say that a compound metre such as 9/4 would traditionally imply three sets of three pulses (3+3+3), nothing is saying we can't break that rule and phrase things differently (4+4+1). It's all how you phrase it.

Consider a common rhythm in 4/4: say we have a bar of two dotted quarter notes and a regular quarter note. Because of the implied accents, you could say that we should phrase it as two bars of 3/8 and a bar of 2/8. Or perhaps a bar of 6/8 and a bar of 1/4. But it is simply easier to put it into a 4/4 metre. Sure, you group the notes in your head as 3+3+2, but organizing it into 4/4 might be easier. Plus you're not constantly writing out changing metres when it can be simplified. The same is true for "Surrounded" -- in stead of constantly switching between 4/4 and 5/4 for that repeating rhythmic phrase, just writing 9/4 and combining the phrase into one bar is more effective and easier to read.

Actually the most appropriate way to write a rhythm of 3+3+2 is in 8/8 That way the performer reading it knows it's going to consistently subdivide at the eighth note level in groupings other than 2+2+2+2. As for Surrounded, that's partially why I would say 9/8 vs 9/4, so that you don't have a huge bar with 9 quarter notes in it. That gets to be a hassle sometimes. Also, if you were to write it as alternating measures, it's not too uncommon to write that with both time sigs next to each other with a slash, indicating that it switches every bar. Then you don't have to write it in every single bar. Or you can do the 9/4 or 9/8, and have dotted lines down the dividing point in the bar, to make it clearer and not just one long bar.

[theseoafs]

Long story short, a "9" at the top of the time signature implies compound time ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_time#Compound_meter )

The rule is that a multiple of 3 over an 8 means compound time.

9/4 isn't compound time. 9/8 is.

The drummer of my last band used to drive me nuts by insisting that 6/8 songs were in 3! Grr.

No, there is nothing special about the eighth note that makes 9/8 compound time and 9/4 simple time.

https://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-simple-and-compound-time-signatures.navId-380613.html
https://www.musictheory.net/lessons/15

Also have a look at chapter 2 of this public domain music theory textbook:  https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B6gHBiL6SDOKcjhnQTNYdGJUNFE&usp=sharing

[The Boomr]

Hey, guys. However much we are pedants in this thread...

I  this thread

[Elite]

Surrounded is for the most part actually written in 4/4. The parts people get fessed up about here are in 9/8, because, well, that's how I perceive them, as a 4/4 bar with an extra eighth stacked at the end. If you were to write the whole song in alternating time signatures of 4/4 and 5/4, then all measures that do not conform to this would have to be (in order not to have tempo changes) in 8/4 or, even more hilariously, split up into two measures of 4/4, which they definitely are not, since the chord symbols change every measure.

So, Surrounded is for the most part in 4/4, with some parts in 9/8.

[The Boomr]

Surrounded is for the most part actually written in 4/4. The parts people get fessed up about here are in 9/8, because, well, that's how I perceive them, as a 4/4 bar with an extra eighth stacked at the end. If you were to write the whole song in alternating time signatures of 4/4 and 5/4, then all measures that do not conform to this would have to be (in order not to have tempo changes) in 8/4 or, even more hilariously, split up into two measures of 4/4, which they definitely are not, since the chord symbols change every measure.

So, Surrounded is for the most part in 4/4, with some parts in 9/8.

Thank you for explaining that in a way that makes it clear why this section we've talked about is 9/8, not 9/4!

[Lucien]

Random note: my favorite part of TCoT is the delicious part where you have 3 measures of 9/8 and 2 measures of 4/4.

[The Boomr]

Random note: my favorite part of TCoT is the delicious part where you have 3 measures of 9/8 and 2 measures of 4/4.

Ohhhhh yes, that IS delicious. Except it would be three measures of 9/8 and two measures of 4/8, or 9/4 and 4/4.

[Lucien]

Random note: my favorite part of TCoT is the delicious part where you have 3 measures of 9/8 and 2 measures of 4/4.

Ohhhhh yes, that IS delicious. Except it would be three measures of 9/8 and two measures of 4/8, or 9/4 and 4/4.

That is correct.

9/8 then 4/8 makes sense.

[The Boomr]

Random note: my favorite part of TCoT is the delicious part where you have 3 measures of 9/8 and 2 measures of 4/4.

Ohhhhh yes, that IS delicious. Except it would be three measures of 9/8 and two measures of 4/8, or 9/4 and 4/4.

That is correct.

9/8 then 4/8 makes sense.

Yeah the tempo is quick enough for /8 to be a much better choice than /4, imo.

When I first read your comment I thought you said That is incorrect. And I was really confused because you then immediately said one of my assertions was correct. But then I reread it and I was like hahaha!