The Enemy Inside Discussion Thread

[adamack]

Ummmm you mean like this?
https://youtu.be/97kestc20gY

I had no idea this was a thing! I Jordan so much now for doing this.

There's also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNVh7TA6doA

Ha!!! Was that JR's version of this? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssh71hePR8Q

[The Boomr]

Ummmm you mean like this?
https://youtu.be/97kestc20gY

I had no idea this was a thing! I Jordan so much now for doing this.

There's also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNVh7TA6doA

Ha!!! Was that JR's version of this? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssh71hePR8Q

O.o ............ is all I have to say about that.

[Outcrier]

For me, the song suffers from the main problem with DT albums since Systematic Chaos, they can make interesting sections but not a entire song full of interesting sections (like Learning To Live), there's always generic parts mixed within the songwriting that detract points from the songs, like, you hear them and you think: "man, this tune could have been much better if they did this or did that"

Breaking All Illusions

For me, BAI is a great example, the song is going so well but then comes that extended Petrucci solo... this is what happens when you ran out of ideas, an extended solo that feels forced and add nothing to the song... for me, the best songs in ADTOE is BITS and LNF, because the songwriting in then is less forced

[The Boomr]

For me, the song suffers from the main problem with DT albums since Systematic Chaos, they can make interesting sections but not a entire song full of interesting sections (like Learning To Live), there's always generic parts mixed within the songwriting that detract points from the songs, like, you hear them and you think: "man, this tune could have been much better if they did this or did that"

Breaking All Illusions

For me, BAI is a great example, the song is going so well but then comes that extended Petrucci solo... this is what happens when you ran out of ideas, an extended solo that feels forced and add nothing to the song... for me, the best songs in ADTOE is BITS and LNF, because the songwriting in then is less forced

His solo doesn't feel forced at all to me in BAI, it's just a nice mellow groove for a while. Nothing wrong with that. DT do those quite a lot in live shows, but never really do that on albums so it was kinda cool for them to put that in there, imo. In fact I really find none of the music on ADTOE feeling forced. While it's not a top album for me, it is very consistent within itself, I think.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

The Breaking All Illusions guitar solo adds nothing to the song?

[The Boomr]

The Breaking All Illusions guitar solo adds nothing to the song?

It's like there's not even a guitar solo there, I literally can only hear the rest of the band playing background stuff. SO BORING.

[adamack]

For me, the song suffers from the main problem with DT albums since Systematic Chaos, they can make interesting sections but not a entire song full of interesting sections (like Learning To Live), there's always generic parts mixed within the songwriting that detract points from the songs, like, you hear them and you think: "man, this tune could have been much better if they did this or did that"

Breaking All Illusions

For me, BAI is a great example, the song is going so well but then comes that extended Petrucci solo... this is what happens when you ran out of ideas, an extended solo that feels forced and add nothing to the song... for me, the best songs in ADTOE is BITS and LNF, because the songwriting in then is less forced

BAI does have lots of very different parts, but they are all amazing, and the song returns to the absolute best part again at the end which gives you that sense of anticipation as the song progresses. There are vocals spread pretty consistently throughout, too.

I think a way better example is a song like Outcry. The hook is awesome, so epic. But after just one hook section, the song veers off into, what I personally feel, is an instrumental section that is way too long and unrelated for nearly 5 minutes. Fortunately, since DT always knows how to make up for any questionable arrangements with a gift at the end, the song does return for another hook section. But I feel like that 5 minute instrumental section could have been broken down to a solid 2 and a half minutes or so, and the remaining 2 and a half minutes could have been possibly distributed elsewhere.

Just my opinion though, of course...I'm sure many will disagree and love the entire Outcry instrumental section....to each his own!

[Outcrier]

For me, the song suffers from the main problem with DT albums since Systematic Chaos, they can make interesting sections but not a entire song full of interesting sections (like Learning To Live), there's always generic parts mixed within the songwriting that detract points from the songs, like, you hear them and you think: "man, this tune could have been much better if they did this or did that"

Breaking All Illusions

For me, BAI is a great example, the song is going so well but then comes that extended Petrucci solo... this is what happens when you ran out of ideas, an extended solo that feels forced and add nothing to the song... for me, the best songs in ADTOE is BITS and LNF, because the songwriting in then is less forced

BAI does have lots of very different parts, but they are all amazing, and the song returns to the absolute best part again at the end which gives you that sense of anticipation as the song progresses. There are vocals spread pretty consistently throughout, too.

I think a way better example is a song like Outcry. The hook is awesome, so epic. But after just one hook section, the song veers off into, what I personally feel, is an instrumental section that is way too long and unrelated for nearly 5 minutes. Fortunately, since DT always knows how to make up for any questionable arrangements with a gift at the end, the song does return for another hook section. But I feel like that 5 minute instrumental section could have been broken down to a solid 2 and a half minutes or so, and the remaining 2 and a half minutes could have been possibly distributed elsewhere.

Just my opinion though, of course...I'm sure many will disagree and love the entire Outcry instrumental section....to each his own!

I agree with you, but that section in BAI for me is totally forgetable, for me, it feels like: "We don't know what to do, let Petrucci do a extended solo and call it a day"

[adamack]

For me, the song suffers from the main problem with DT albums since Systematic Chaos, they can make interesting sections but not a entire song full of interesting sections (like Learning To Live), there's always generic parts mixed within the songwriting that detract points from the songs, like, you hear them and you think: "man, this tune could have been much better if they did this or did that"

Breaking All Illusions

For me, BAI is a great example, the song is going so well but then comes that extended Petrucci solo... this is what happens when you ran out of ideas, an extended solo that feels forced and add nothing to the song... for me, the best songs in ADTOE is BITS and LNF, because the songwriting in then is less forced

His solo doesn't feel forced at all to me in BAI, it's just a nice mellow groove for a while. Nothing wrong with that. DT do those quite a lot in live shows, but never really do that on albums so it was kinda cool for them to put that in there, imo. In fact I really find none of the music on ADTOE feeling forced. While it's not a top album for me, it is very consistent within itself, I think.

Agreed...I personally love that mellow JP solo in BAI!

JP is so versatile....I still feel that many people still under-rate his ability to play a slow, beautiful solo which showcases his amazing feel for playing. Not saying anyone on this board under-rates him, but more so people who do not listen to a lot of DT.

So whenever JP has a chance to add a more mellow, emotional solo into the album tracks, I'm always for it and it is one of my favorite aspects of his playing.

That is what DT is about....being able to cover the gamut of emotions in a single song....no other band that I've heard can do this quite like DT.

[adamack]

For me, the song suffers from the main problem with DT albums since Systematic Chaos, they can make interesting sections but not a entire song full of interesting sections (like Learning To Live), there's always generic parts mixed within the songwriting that detract points from the songs, like, you hear them and you think: "man, this tune could have been much better if they did this or did that"

Breaking All Illusions

For me, BAI is a great example, the song is going so well but then comes that extended Petrucci solo... this is what happens when you ran out of ideas, an extended solo that feels forced and add nothing to the song... for me, the best songs in ADTOE is BITS and LNF, because the songwriting in then is less forced

BAI does have lots of very different parts, but they are all amazing, and the song returns to the absolute best part again at the end which gives you that sense of anticipation as the song progresses. There are vocals spread pretty consistently throughout, too.

I think a way better example is a song like Outcry. The hook is awesome, so epic. But after just one hook section, the song veers off into, what I personally feel, is an instrumental section that is way too long and unrelated for nearly 5 minutes. Fortunately, since DT always knows how to make up for any questionable arrangements with a gift at the end, the song does return for another hook section. But I feel like that 5 minute instrumental section could have been broken down to a solid 2 and a half minutes or so, and the remaining 2 and a half minutes could have been possibly distributed elsewhere.

Just my opinion though, of course...I'm sure many will disagree and love the entire Outcry instrumental section....to each his own!

I agree with you, but that section in BAI for me is totally forgetable, for me, it feels like: "We don't know what to do, let Petrucci do a extended solo and call it a day"

I see what you're saying...you are more so against the actual context and arrangement/length of the solo than the actual solo itself you mean?

[Outcrier]

For me, the song suffers from the main problem with DT albums since Systematic Chaos, they can make interesting sections but not a entire song full of interesting sections (like Learning To Live), there's always generic parts mixed within the songwriting that detract points from the songs, like, you hear them and you think: "man, this tune could have been much better if they did this or did that"

Breaking All Illusions

For me, BAI is a great example, the song is going so well but then comes that extended Petrucci solo... this is what happens when you ran out of ideas, an extended solo that feels forced and add nothing to the song... for me, the best songs in ADTOE is BITS and LNF, because the songwriting in then is less forced

BAI does have lots of very different parts, but they are all amazing, and the song returns to the absolute best part again at the end which gives you that sense of anticipation as the song progresses. There are vocals spread pretty consistently throughout, too.

I think a way better example is a song like Outcry. The hook is awesome, so epic. But after just one hook section, the song veers off into, what I personally feel, is an instrumental section that is way too long and unrelated for nearly 5 minutes. Fortunately, since DT always knows how to make up for any questionable arrangements with a gift at the end, the song does return for another hook section. But I feel like that 5 minute instrumental section could have been broken down to a solid 2 and a half minutes or so, and the remaining 2 and a half minutes could have been possibly distributed elsewhere.

Just my opinion though, of course...I'm sure many will disagree and love the entire Outcry instrumental section....to each his own!

I agree with you, but that section in BAI for me is totally forgetable, for me, it feels like: "We don't know what to do, let Petrucci do a extended solo and call it a day"

I see what you're saying...you are more so against the actual context and arrangement/length of the solo than the actual solo itself you mean?

More or less, pick Learning To Live 5:30, if it was today, DT would never write something like this, a part that actually is something the listener is not expecting... Now, when we listen to DT songs, we already know stuff that gonna happen before we even hear the song, like, in Dance Of Eternity, no one was expecting a Ragtime or a Bass solo in it the first time we listened to it

[snapple]

uh, no.

[jammindude]

Ya....I seriously think you *could* make the same argument about LtL at the "false ending" section before the song fades back in.   But people lose their perspective because it's such an untouchable classic.

[dparrott]

I sure didn't expect those timing changes in the TEI solo.  I sure didn't expect OTBOA to be that complex for a single.  I never know what to expect from DT. 

[dongringo]

After listening to this about 20 times yesterday and on repeat via Spotify while working out this morning, I can honestly say this is an absolute beast of a song!

Mangini is a complete powerhouse during the first minute of the song and continues throughout. I love the different drum beat patterns for each verse as well as the half-time for the last chorus going into the outro.

Those riffs for the verse are extremely catchy and awesome! It harkens me back to SoC (favorite instrumental) which is a great feeling. I also love when JR comes in with the strings/pad behind the verse riff prior to JLB singing...chills!

Also, I love the "prog instrumental" as well as JP's solo. I feel it's tasteful and follows the overall melody of the song well all the while throwing in some face-melting licks to remind us how godly he is.

All in all, super stoked about the new album and this is quite possibly the best "single" DT has ever released!!!! (Let's face it, a 9-minute song is not a true single)  

All of this ^

[adamack]

I know whatcha mean, Outcrier. To build on that observation, take SFAM as an example. I don't think ANYONE could have predicted that CD to sound the way it did, mainly because it came directly after Falling From Infinity, an album that, at least to me and a lot of other DT fans, was some of their "least-awesome" work.

But from, say, Chaos until now, I think it's safe to say that it has been easier to predict, to some extent, at least some IDEAS of what we would be getting for each album, at least in comparison to how hard it was to predict SFAM.

Sorry if that is confusing...I don't know why I continue nitpicking hahah.... I'm a bastard.

At the end of the day, I love every single DT album more than any other album by any other band, with the exception of maybe a few albums. So I should not be complaining, EVER. I'm done!

[jammindude]

I'm pulling a brain fart....I was remembering all the singles DT has released.   But what was the "single" from Octavarium?

IAW - PMU
Awake - Lie
FII - You Not Me
SFAM - Home
SDOIT - (actually, I can't remember if it was Blind Faith or Misunderstood)
ToT - As I Am
8V -
SC - Forsaken
BCSL - Rite of Passage
ADTOE - On the Backs of Angels

[theseoafs]

8V didn't have a single.  Neither did SDOIT (Blind Faith and Misunderstood aren't exactly appropriate for normal radio airplay).  You're also forgetting quite a few of the singles DT's released (like Caught in a Web and Hollow Years and Through Her Eyes, among others).

[jammindude]

8V didn't have a single.  Neither did SDOIT (Blind Faith and Misunderstood aren't exactly appropriate for normal radio airplay).  You're also forgetting quite a few of the singles DT's released (like Caught in a Web and Hollow Years and Through Her Eyes, among others).

Misunderstood *DID* have a "single edit"...  And yes, I know that these are not the ONLY singles, but they were the first tastes we had before each album came out.  (I still have my advance "single" of Home that I was playing in the record store I worked at before the album was released...it also has Fatal Tragedy and Through Her Eyes)

[johncal]

I'm pulling a brain fart....I was remembering all the singles DT has released.   But what was the "single" from Octavarium?

IAW - PMU
Awake - Lie
FII - You Not Me
SFAM - Home
SDOIT - (actually, I can't remember if it was Blind Faith or Misunderstood)
ToT - As I Am
8V -
SC - Forsaken
BCSL - Rite of Passage
ADTOE - On the Backs of Angels

I walk beside you.... It was their U2 single. Didn't work though.

[Chino]

I'm pulling a brain fart....I was remembering all the singles DT has released.   But what was the "single" from Octavarium?

IAW - PMU
Awake - Lie
FII - You Not Me
SFAM - Home
SDOIT - (actually, I can't remember if it was Blind Faith or Misunderstood)
ToT - As I Am
8V -
SC - Forsaken
BCSL - Rite of Passage
ADTOE - On the Backs of Angels

I walk beside you.... It was their U2 single. Didn't work though.

Panic Attack on Rock Band was kind of like a single.

[theseoafs]

I Walk Beside You isn't really a single in any sense of the word, unless we're counting all poppy songs as "singles".

[jammindude]

Did we hear that BEFORE the album release?     Was 8V really the odd one out?   I mean....in a way that's kinda cool. 

Maybe it's true that SDOIT didn't really have a full on pre-album full on release....but I know the fan club CD that was released that year (just a bit before the album came out if I remember correctly) had four tracks from the then unreleased SDOIT.     

Am I remembering that right?  Anyone else have the "Four Degrees" pre-release?   

But still...that would make 8V, the *only* time nothing was released before the album came out.   Weird.

[Perpetual Change]

The "circus" thing comes from the zanier, more colorful patches Jordan Rudess uses. Whereas Kevin Moore, like most prog metal keyboarders, was content to stick with synth and string patches mostly, and Derek Sherinian was the same except for his tendency bring in a lot more traditional rock organs and keyboards, JR's use of sounds is a lot more varied and I'd say riskier. Because JR takes more chances, I think his parts tend to be either really great, or not so great. But that all comes with the risk of JR just being a much more bolder player compared to KM or DS, as well as most other current rock keyboardists.

I for one don't mind the "circus" sounds. I however do not like the "snarling pig" sound*. It takes over the sonic space of the guitar and bass in a permanent and, I think, not very good sounding way.

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYBZPaPIu3k

[elmatto]

Kinda late to the party but I just listened to the single. It was alright. Nothing too amazing. But then again I'm usually never wow'd by their singles. I usually like everything else other than the singles.

[johncal]

Here's my backup that I WALK BESIDE YOU was the single for Octovarium.

James Labrie interviewed at the listening party

There is a slightly more mainstream slant to the album that will allow Dream Theater disciples and fellow prog heads to play this release to a non-genre fan who could appreciate it and not instantly be overwhelmed by a maelstrom of notes. Dream Theater have explored different approaches over the years, but it seems that the stigma of dauntingly ambitious, epic music has stuck with them. Frontman James LaBrie told me that the catchy, U2-ish song "I Walk Beside You" from Octavarium was sent to commercial radio for airplay consideration, but he suspected that they ignored it simply because of the connotations associated with the band's name. Obviously Dream Theater do not aspire to be played on Top 40 stations, but some of the new material is more commercially friendly in a good way

[Chino]

I Walk Beside You was the 'single' released before SCORE.

[Outcrier]

I know whatcha mean, Outcrier. To build on that observation, take SFAM as an example. I don't think ANYONE could have predicted that CD to sound the way it did, mainly because it came directly after Falling From Infinity, an album that, at least to me and a lot of other DT fans, was some of their "least-awesome" work.

But from, say, Chaos until now, I think it's safe to say that it has been easier to predict, to some extent, at least some IDEAS of what we would be getting for each album, at least in comparison to how hard it was to predict SFAM.

Sorry if that is confusing...I don't know why I continue nitpicking hahah.... I'm a bastard.

At the end of the day, I love every single DT album more than any other album by any other band, with the exception of maybe a few albums. So I should not be complaining, EVER. I'm done!

Man, i'ts like, when you heard SFAM, you can see so much great ideas and you think: this album is so good they will ran out of ideas for the next album...i'm 100% right, there's no way...
Then came 6DOIT and the motherf*ckers surprises me again with great ideas, "can't believe they did it again" sorta thing... (like when Radiohead released In Rainbows)

[Outcrier]

Last time i've had that feeling with DT is when i heard Octavarium the song

[Deve]

No, ragtime is a very specific style, which JR has used a couple of times (TDOE, TDEN) but rarely. And maybe on one or two occasions he's done something reminiscent of circus/carnival music, but unfortunately that phrase just gets used to describe anything quirky or odd in prog music, and it gets kind of irritating.

This, this, a million times this. I really don't understand why people liken JR's quirky riffs to circus music. This is circus music.

[TheGreatPretender]

This, this, a million times this. I really don't understand why people liken JR's quirky riffs to circus music. This is circus music.

Although, to be fair, JR DID play that theme during their performance of Under A Glass Moon, on Score. 

[Deve]

This, this, a million times this. I really don't understand why people liken JR's quirky riffs to circus music. This is circus music.

Although, to be fair, JR DID play that theme during their performance of Under A Glass Moon, on Score. 

Ah that's right! That must be why people compare JR riffs to circus music then. That and the few times he's done ragtime stuff. 

[dedSurroun]

The only thing "wrong" with it is the (incessant) re-appearance of circus and carnival music (usually from Jordan). It has, very unfortunately, become a recurring motif in a lot of Dream Theater songs. There's got to be other things they can play to musically signify any kind of emotional distress. Much like the overused and tired-sounding string patches of prog music, the clown music has to stop.

String patches and "carnival" patches are what make DT special for me.  So Shush.

This.

Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion but I just don't understand people critisising the DT elements of DT songs. It's what makes DT, DT.

It's like asking Metallica to stop doing pentatonic solos with a wah effect or asking Dave Mustaine to cut his hair and dye it. They wouldn't be the same bands without those elements and it's the same with DT and JR's carnival-esque interludes.

Re: "It's what makes DT, DT"

Circus/Carnival music has, unfortunately, become a bit of a signature sound, and that's really too bad. I'd hope for a wider expression of musicality than, seemingly, always reverting back to that particular style of expression. It's become generic and uncreative.

These guys are creative and can write/play some really, really unique stuff.

It's sad to hear them just spew off a flutter of clown music when they're capable of much more.

[GandL]

I've listen to it five times, there is a lot of interesting parts, but as a whole, for me, while being a good song, I think it is just average, not great, not bad, just another heavy song, nothing special, latest DT by numbers.

It doesn't move me, but I won't skip it when listening to the complete disk. For a single, I was hopping for something more catchy.

I just hope the rest will be more creative and less cold.

[dedSurroun]

I've just never ever been reminded of the circus/carnival by JR's patches.

Probably because they have nothing to do with circuses or carnivals.  But somebody made that comparison once, and it apparently stuck, so all the cool kids who have nothing constructive to say can just throw that out there and act like it is a valid criticism.

...because you don't like that opinion, that means it is not valid criticism or constructive?

Circus, carnival, or clown music is a description of what it sounds like, right?

Part of music criticism is that you describe the music.

I can understand that expressing it with pure bile, hatred, and frothing-at-the-mouth can be non-constructive, but c'mon, it's very easy to dismiss something you don't like or agree with as not constructive or invalid criticism, without actually engaging in the conversation.

It's unfortunate that Dream Theater (and perhaps Jordan mainly, although I don't know if the decision to play clown music is collective or not) has decided to use carnival-sounding breaks to musically express some kind of craziness or distress in their songs.

It comes back, time and time again, in quite a few songs and it's starting to sound very, very tired.

I think they're capable of more creative ways of musically conveying a certain mood or feeling.

Hell, they can even play super fast in more creative ways, and do so every now and then.

It would be awesome to hear Dream Theater challenge themselves for an album to, just once, not use the same old bag of tricks in their music.

Look, I get that there are elements we all appreciate and like, but man, for a while they were regularly serving up musical surprises. One of them was circus music. Now that's been overdone.

Some say Dream Theater aren't capable of musical innovation. I still think they can squeeze out some more creative juices, 12 albums into it. I hope this 12th album will offer some musical explosions of awesome-sauce in my ears.

Hopefully it's the first and last time I have to sit through carnival music.