The Enemy Inside Discussion Thread

[eviljust]

iTunes is always AAC, and all new music on iTunes is encoded with a bitrate of 256kbps

thanks a lot for the quick reply

iTunes sucks ass

[Dellers]

finally someone who  doesn't care about the mix.. really people, it's all about the music 

I have studied sound engineering, so it's kinda hard for me to enjoy a bad mix. While most mixes actually are more than good enough, The Enemy Inside does not have a good mix to my ears. I can't even listen to it as loud as I want because it physically hurts at just 70% of the volume I usually listen to ADTOE at. It wouldn't have been so bad if the guitars were a few dB lower in the mix, but they are completely destroying it IMO. Less Petrucci and more Myung would have helped a lot, and a different master.

[puppyonacid]

A dark master?

[atmyne]

But the production does directly affect the enjoyment of the music. If an album has poor production, then you can't appreciate the music to its full potential, because you can't hear each note clearly, or not in a balance that complements the necessary elements at the right moments.
My only real complaint about the mix is that JLB is a little low volume at times, which means I can't appreciate his vocal tone or melodies as much as I could. So it's not a trivial factor. Caring about the production IS caring about the music.

I totally get where you are coming from. It should be noted that there are in fact people like myself who don't give that much of a toss about mixing/mastering. If it's really bad/distasteful (e.g. Metallica St Anger snare drums) then it's a problem. Otherwise, i'm not well versed in the art of what is considered a good or bad mix, and will enjoy a song 90% of the time (assuming the music itself is good) when mixing/mastering peepz be going cray cray about it.

I would also put forward that it's kind of unnecessary to get mad about a mix according to some hyperthetical imaginary better off mix that got lost on an alternative timeline/dimension. what IS this "full potential" you are speaking of? I think if James Labrie was any louder, or the rest of the guys were softer, it would be less "metal", or if the mix was evenly distributed or not as loud, it would sound kind of cheezy. Is that a bad thing? It's completely subjective. Who knows, maybe it was an artistic spin on the production: maybe the production in itself was in some form intentional to convey some form of termoil as denoted by the lyrics (a bit of a stretch for DT I know, but consider that perhaps for mixing in general) as they are being slightly buried by the aggression of the guitars.

Now to reiterate, I have NO training or experience with what is considered a good mix, so take the above from someone who doesn't give a single f*ck about it and just takes the music for what they expected and have come to this release to enjoy: a heavy-as-balls-at-least-by-DTs-Standards DT tune. To me, and maybe you could consider it from this perspective, it's like film school students who have a whinge when there is lens flare in video games (e.g. Zelda Ocarina of Time, or other forms of media where it supposedly isn't warranted), and I KNOW people like that does lens flare ever bother you? did you even notice it?

I still think the song itself is very good for a modern DT single.

Edit:

finally someone who  doesn't care about the mix.. really people, it's all about the music 

I have studied sound engineering, so it's kinda hard for me to enjoy a bad mix. While most mixes actually are more than good enough, The Enemy Inside does not have a good mix to my ears. I can't even listen to it as loud as I want because it physically hurts at just 70% of the volume I usually listen to ADTOE at. It wouldn't have been so bad if the guitars were a few dB lower in the mix, but they are completely destroying it IMO. Less Petrucci and more Myung would have helped a lot, and a different master.

Yep it's something that has been brought to your attention due to your training/education/experience. Again, I like the guitars where they are, and if the bass guitar was louder and/or the guitars weren't as obnoxiously loud as some people think they are, it would sound like cheese. But that's just how I perceive the mix as I have experienced it.

[noxon]

Things can still be loud and metal without being mixed loud.

Here's the thing - what they've done in this mix is compress and normalized the audio as close to 0dB as possible (0dB being max loudness), ending up with an average RMS of -9.1 dB. "Everything" sounds equally loud, and it removes much of the dynamic from the music, causing it to be noise rather than music - first time I heard the track I'd cranked it up and after it was done I couldn't even remember what I'd heard because everything that is memorable in the track was washed out by the "noise".

Look at this image that shows Lie and Enemy Inside side by side - notice how the right side is all crammed really close to the edges, while the left side has a lot more room. Also notice how much whiter the sonogram is for the enemy inside - the brighter it is, the hotter the mix is.

[adastra]

Things can still be loud and metal without being mixed loud.

Here's the thing - what they've done in this mix is compress and normalized the audio as close to 0dB as possible (0dB being max loudness), ending up with an average RMS of -9.1 dB. "Everything" sounds equally loud, and it removes much of the dynamic from the music, causing it to be noise rather than music - first time I heard the track I'd cranked it up and after it was done I couldn't even remember what I'd heard because everything that is memorable in the track was washed out by the "noise".

Look at this image that shows Lie and Enemy Inside side by side - notice how the right side is all crammed really close to the edges, while the left side has a lot more room. Also notice how much whiter the sonogram is for the enemy inside - the brighter it is, the hotter the mix is.

hmmm.... interesting... I thought that the mix on The Enemy Inside was a bit "suffocating" .. It was like a wall of noise.

[atmyne]

@noxon now THAT'S how you explain/demonstrate the art of mixing

[BlobVanDam]

Is there not an argument here for letting the mix spoil the music for you? I mean let's face it, this is not a bad mix. It's just not suited to many. I think it sounds overly compressed and there isn't much dynamic range. This seems to be the norm and I do think it may be a record label thing but I won't let it detract from DT's music for me.

If it was a bad mix ala When Dream and Day Unite, then I'd get it. Even in that example though many peeps around here accept that mix for what it is and don't let it detract from the album.

Systematic Chaos had a very hot mix.....or it was mastered hot....I dunno but it didn't stop the songs themselves being good or less than good.

I do get it. An audiophile will jump on the stereo imaging, the clipping, the over use of compression.....I hear al lthose things but the way I see it:

Bad song + bad mix = Bad song

Good song + bad mix = Good song

Bad song + good mix = Bad song

Good song + Good mix = Porcupine Tree

Whereas the mix will effect the sound of the song, I don't see that it'll effect the quality of the song in question. A good song is a good song regardless of the mix. BUT(!!!) I take the point. Just my two guineas.

You're right, and I agree with your point, in that a good song is still a good song regardless of the production. It doesn't change the notes being played, or the beauty of the song. BUT that said, it does affect my ability to enjoy that recording of the song as much as I should given how much I like the songwriting itself, because then I can't hear the music properly, which directly ties in to being able to judge the songwriting.

I don't have a major problem with The Enemy Inside that stops me rocking out to it (although I have nitpicks that slightly affect it), so I'm just speaking generally here now.
A bad mix does not make the song bad, but it can put me off wanting to listen to the song, or even stop me being able to listen to it altogether. It's not something you can just choose to overlook. You don't invest in an audiophile soundcard and studio monitor headphones because you're the kind of person who doesn't hear poor production.

When I listen to FII, and hear those clear acoustic drums, that warm bass underneath, and the tone of those guitars, and the dynamic range, it really enhances the listening experience and takes it to new heights of enjoyment. I can hear and appreciate every nuance in the performance, and hear subtleties that I couldn't if it was mixed or mastered badly. So it makes a big difference to my enjoyment. It's a big part of why I love that album so much. If you're not listening to Trial of Tears on high end equipment, you're missing out on pure ear candy.

And there are other albums and songs I love just as much, but are poorly recorded/mixed, or over-compressed to the point that I can't even listen to them, because it hurts my ears, and I can't hear any of the details in the performance, and that can only hurt the music. Even trying to ignore it, it still hurts the music, because I'm not even hearing it properly. It can't not affect it.

[BlobVanDam]

Here's the thing - what they've done in this mix is compress and normalized the audio as close to 0dB as possible (0dB being max loudness), ending up with an average RMS of -9.1 dB.

I believe you mean -6.1dB. -9.1db would be great for a modern album!

edit: Just saw the image. You're going by a different measurement.

[wasteland]

I'm very concerned about the DC offset of -0.0002 (Ampere? o.O) that they put in TEI. That is really a disappointing move from them 

[puppyonacid]

Good point Blob.

I agree that if you're naturally inclined to hear these things then I guess you don't have a choice.

I still enjoy the songs of DTs that have suffered from poor mixing. That said though, I do wish they'd just cut it out. I have yet to see evidence that the loudness war has any positive effect on album sales.

Edit: When I say "they" I dont necesserily mean the band. I mean whoever it is that has the final say. I am still inclined to believe that it is the label. With JP being such a tone junky, with Jordans pitch ability, with JMs natural calm demeanour I just don't see that it's really the band doing this. I'm sure that they must surely prefer something a bit more organic souding.

[nikatapi]

I think the faults of the mix become more apparent when using good headphones.
The soundstage is kinda narrow and the lack of dynamics makes the sound a little tiring after extended listening.

To be honest i find it strange how James' solo album sounds so much better than the single, and EOP also sounded much better without lacking the heaviness.  I mean a simple back to back playback of TEI and let's say Agony from IR makes the difference in sound quality very obvious.

It's a pity that a band like DT who do have the financial power to hire great engineers somehow manage to get an inferior sonic result compared to much lower budget works.

[puppyonacid]

Hence my belief that it's a label thing.

[noxon]

I believe you mean -6.1dB. -9.1db would be great for a modern album!

edit: Just saw the image. You're going by a different measurement.

I'm going by a similar measurement as this article speaks of : https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/articles/loudness.htm  where this image: https://media.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/images/DR_01.jpg  states that average RMS of a modern album is usally around -10dB, -12dB nowadays.

However, increasing from -12dB to -9dB (as can be seen between Lie and Enemy Inside) doesn't really tell us that much - but when speaking about loudness it's commonly said that 10dB of difference = twice the volume of percieved difference.

[Bolsters]

I'm very concerned about the DC offset of -0.0002 (Ampere? o.O) that they put in TEI. That is really a disappointing move from them 

The interesting thing is that the DC offset can be removed with two mouse clicks.

[BlobVanDam]

I believe you mean -6.1dB. -9.1db would be great for a modern album!

edit: Just saw the image. You're going by a different measurement.

I'm going by a similar measurement as this article speaks of : https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/articles/loudness.htm  where this image: https://media.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/images/DR_01.jpg  states that average RMS of a modern album is usally around -10dB, -12dB nowadays.

Fair enough! I use the TT Dynamic Range Meter, so I'm most used to just going by the Dynamic Range figure. I don't know how it's measuring its RMS value, but it's obviously different to either the average or max.

[atmyne]

Hence my belief that it's a label thing.

I think you're right. It was probably a roadrunner initiative.

[noxon]

But I'll have to say this though; the mix, while it's loud, is better compressed now than it was on BCSL or even ADTOE - it clips a lot less now. OTBOA clipped twice as much as Enemy Inside.

[Kotowboy]

What annoys me is when people like Rick Ruin - who claim to be a producer - ergo they should try to make their albums sounds as good as possible -

- always make them sound like a horrible digital dry mushy mess.

If you've got a reputation for making your albums sound bad - you're not a very good producer. . .

Rick Ruin should at best be a song doctor - he seems to be able to get bands to write good material but he should not call himself a producer.

Especially since his role in producing is basically to turn up to the studio once a month and say what sounds good or bad.

Any fucker can do that. Sure - I understand it's good to have an outside perspective once in a while but when your engineer basically does

90% of the producing and engineering on your albums - don't take ALL the credit.


And have a hair cut...and put some shoes on....Damn hippy.

[aprilethereal]

I believe you mean -6.1dB. -9.1db would be great for a modern album!

edit: Just saw the image. You're going by a different measurement.

I'm going by a similar measurement as this article speaks of : https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/articles/loudness.htm

That was a great read, thanks

[commanderbob]

How can those who have more knowledge of what constitutes a good or a bad mix NOT be bothered or pleased by what they hear?

How can it NOT enhance or hinder their enjoyment of a recording?

And, how can I fault them for feeling that way?

I'm happily unaware of such things.

They aren't.

Let it go.

[puppyonacid]

why so srs?

[Perpetual Change]

I am disappointed by the mix, but I have been disappointed with the mixes of the last few records. So it's not really disappointment: I've just come to expect subpar audio quality (*the "par" being what other prominent metal and prog bands are doing) from DTand have come to accept that they don't see the value in really spending more time and money on the quality of their recordings, or else, John just loves producing way too much to put it in the hands of someone else. Either way, it does not bother me anymore.

[commanderbob]

why so srs?

LOL

I haven't completed my coffee consumption yet, and I have never understood why people care about how other people enjoy things in such a way as to imply that they are wrong for enjoying it that way.

Sheesh I'm a grump today.

[nightsky971]

@noxon

What program are you using in your analysis?  I've been looking for something similar.

[FlashCE]

Incredible work by Petrucci and Mangini my god.

[noxon]

@noxon

What program are you using in your analysis?  I've been looking for something similar.

I'm assuming you noticed that i'm running OS X - in which case the app is Amadeus.

[DreamTension]

I am disappointed by the mix, but I have been disappointed with the mixes of the last few records. So it's not really disappointment: I've just come to expect subpar audio quality (*the "par" being what other prominent metal and prog bands are doing) from DTand have come to accept that they don't see the value in really spending more time and money on the quality of their recordings, or else, John just loves producing way too much to put it in the hands of someone else. Either way, it does not bother me anymore.

Or maybe it's just smart marketing.  If we want high quality, we have to go for the $100 box set or the $25+ HD tracks.

[nightsky971]

Awesome...thanks!

I'm assuming you noticed that i'm running OS X - in which case the app is Amadeus.
[/quote]

[serrano]

I assume that it's f***ed up in the mastering, not the mix and that gives me hope that the vinyl (maybe the flacs along with the vinyl) may be better. I don't want to expend  EUR 25+ for the HD tracks after paying EUR 80 for the box set.

[dongringo]

I'm just glad it's not mastered as loud as the new Queensryche, which I can barely listen to. At least there's a little room to breathe, which is all I ever hope for anymore in this loudness war age. Basically, I've had to lower my own standards in order not to be totally disappointed whenever a rock/metal album is released that isn't mixed/mastered by Steven Wilson. Some day we will all have our dynamics back. In the meantime this is unfortunately standard stuff.

[Chino]

Anyone else think this will be the next tour's opener?

[aprilethereal]

Definitely. I guess FAS will be played as an intro, so TEI would be the opener.

[BlobVanDam]

Anyone else think this will be the next tour's opener?

Yeah, I'm guessing False Awakening Suite into The Enemy Inside.

[The Boomr]

It sounds like circus sounds, it doesn't sound like something from the circus, it sounds like a dying dog, it sounds like angels weeping, it sounds good, bad, insulting, etc. Its all those things and its none of those things at the same time and ya gotta keep that in mind when dealing with the masses.

Don't blink. Don't even blink. Blink and you're dead.