The Enemy Inside Discussion Thread

[Deve]

...Circus, carnival, or clown music is a description of what it sounds like, right?...

I guess it depends on what you define circus, carnival and/or clown music as, but I really don't think his breakdowns sound like that 95% of the time. In this case, we're talking about the riff at ~4:40 of the enemy inside, correct? To me, that sounds absolutely nothing like carnival music. It's a proggy, quirky breakdown.

[dongringo]

...Circus, carnival, or clown music is a description of what it sounds like, right?...

I guess it depends on what you define circus, carnival and/or clown music as, but I really don't think his breakdowns sound like that 95% of the time. In this case, we're talking about the riff at ~4:40 of the enemy inside, correct? To me, that sounds absolutely nothing like carnival music. It's a proggy, quirky breakdown.

Agreed ^

[erciccio]

More or less, pick Learning To Live 5:30, if it was today, DT would never write something like this, a part that actually is something the listener is not expecting... Now, when we listen to DT songs, we already know stuff that gonna happen before we even hear the song, like, in Dance Of Eternity, no one was expecting a Ragtime or a Bass solo in it the first time we listened to it

Serious? Were you expecting the Bee Gees to jump into BAI?
Or the marshmellow solo in BTS?

If so, you are GOD! 

[TheGreatPretender]

I guess it depends on what you define circus, carnival and/or clown music as, but I really don't think his breakdowns sound like that 95% of the time. In this case, we're talking about the riff at ~4:40 of the enemy inside, correct? To me, that sounds absolutely nothing like carnival music. It's a proggy, quirky breakdown.

Didn't he use a similar instrument sample for the beginning of Learning To Live on SFNY?

[Ultimetalhead]

It's funny, the first time I heard the song I was being blown away by the 4:40 section and thinking "Oh people are going to bitch SO HARD at this." I was not mistaken.

My stance on the matter is basically this: Dream Theater's gonna Dream Theater. The "circusy" aspect of their music has been present since Rudess joined the band (and indirectly so even when Kevin Moore was around). It's ridiculous to assume that they're going to stop doing instrumental breaks, and yes sometimes the band likes to let loose a little bit and not be super serious ballsy full-steam ahead metal. I guarantee if there was no instrumental wankery people would be bitching that the song didn't do anything interesting.

[Aythesryche]

I've just never ever been reminded of the circus/carnival by JR's patches.

Probably because they have nothing to do with circuses or carnivals.  But somebody made that comparison once, and it apparently stuck, so all the cool kids who have nothing constructive to say can just throw that out there and act like it is a valid criticism.

I didn't see this post. Probably because I don't really go though every post since the pages go by so quickly. Anyhow, as much as I respect ya, bosk, I gotta say I don't see it that way. Just because you think music or sounds inherently don't have meaning that you can't see or agree with, doesn't mean it's not there for someone. We have no idea why Jordan chose his particular patches in question and its pretty irrelevant, honestly. Music is mostly about how one interprets it and how it makes them feel. It's relative. A song with one inherent meaning can be interpreted a million different ways and in a lot of cases, take on a whole new meaning for someone altogether. There is no right or wrong way to extrapolate what a song means to you based on how it moves you, regardless if you pay attention to the songs intended meaning or not. It's the same for how one interprets the specific sounds they hear.

It sounds like circus sounds, it doesn't sound like something from the circus, it sounds like a dying dog, it sounds like angels weeping, it sounds good, bad, insulting, etc. Its all those things and its none of those things at the same time and ya gotta keep that in mind when dealing with the masses.

Personally, I don't say much of anything unless I feel it has a genuine meaning to me. I don't just barf unconstructive criticism out of my mouth. I can't speak for everyone here or everyone that might not like those patches or whatever, I'm just barfing out my opinion here. Constructive is the key word here, too. I was never one to jump on any bandwagon and blurt out what others are saying because I'm too incompetent to back up how I feel about something with the right words that everyone can understand and respect.

Non drunken summary: If you have an opinion, state it in a respectful and constructive way or don't say anything at all. I think I got your drift on that note at least.

[adastra]

I can't believe saying this, but the song was so heavy that I was hoping a little bit of Rudess goofing around.
But yeah, im growing very tired with that carneval/circus-stuff that everyone is talking about.

[Jaffa]

Could somebody please link me to an example of the circus music the keyboard patches supposedly sound like?  Because I've been to the circus before, and I didn't hear any insane proggery. 

And if there is a circus out there where the music sounds like a Jordan Rudess instrumental breakdown, I must go there immediately. 

[wolven74]

what if they throw in the ragtime-y stuff because they know people will talk about it. If so, they've done their job.

I for one like that aspect. Jordan's keyboard wankery has always entertained. The first time I heard the ragtime part in Dance of Eternity I was like, that's epic. It took away from the serious wankery the others were doing. I think it serves the same purpose in TEI. That song is so heavy and serious in it's message that a little lighthearted wanking is welcome.

[adastra]

Could somebody please link me to an example of the circus music the keyboard patches supposedly sound like?  Because I've been to the circus before, and I didn't hear any insane proggery. 

And if there is a circus out there where the music sounds like a Jordan Rudess instrumental breakdown, I must go there immediately.

well, it's not exactly circus/carneval music, but you know exactly what we mean.

[lonestar]

So I was at the local pool hall for league night tonight, and look at what was on the internet jukebox...





Needless to say, I played it. Twice. Now 40 unsuspecting people know how intense this song is, a few were even headbanging along, and one inspired dude was air drumming.

[SnakeEyes]

Probably because they have nothing to do with circuses or carnivals.  But somebody made that comparison once, and it apparently stuck, so all the cool kids who have nothing constructive to say can just throw that out there and act like it is a valid criticism.

I'll have to disagree.  I think they sound EXACTLY like carnival /circus music.  I loved it the first 15 times he used those sounds, but at this point.....it's kinda like when someone told a really funny joke one time......and keeps trying to make the same joke.  Haha.....carnival music on a metal song.  That was cute.....we got it.

[Aythesryche]

what if they throw in the ragtime-y stuff because they know people will talk about it. If so, they've done their job.

I for one like that aspect. Jordan's keyboard wankery has always entertained. The first time I heard the ragtime part in Dance of Eternity I was like, that's epic. It took away from the serious wankery the others were doing. I think it serves the same purpose in TEI. That song is so heavy and serious in it's message that a little lighthearted wanking is welcome.

That is such a perfectly brilliant break! I remember driving around listening to that blasted at a red light and that part came up and the people next to me gave me the most odd look. I just tossed up the \m/ and took off when the light turned green. I love it.

[TheGreatPretender]

Needless to say, I played it. Twice. Now 40 unsuspecting people know how intense this song is, a few were even headbanging along, and one inspired dude was air drumming.

You gotta, man! You gotta!  DT needs exposure, and it's especially gratifying to hear strangers approve. Sometimes, I feel like DT fans (at least in this community) live in a bit of a bubble. We developed our DT standards based on DT's entire discography, and can be some really picky divas. But someone who isn't really familiar with DT, to know that they like and approve of the new song, I think is really gratifying.

[adastra]

Probably because they have nothing to do with circuses or carnivals.  But somebody made that comparison once, and it apparently stuck, so all the cool kids who have nothing constructive to say can just throw that out there and act like it is a valid criticism.

I'll have to disagree.  I think they sound EXACTLY like carnival /circus music.  I loved it the first 15 times he used those sounds, but at this point.....it's kinda like when someone told a really funny joke one time......and keeps trying to make the same joke.  Haha.....carnival music on a metal song.  That was cute.....we got it.

I agree.

[RMGadelha]

I wonder if the reason I liked that section is because I'm a big Finntroll fan...

[Jaffa]

Could somebody please link me to an example of the circus music the keyboard patches supposedly sound like?  Because I've been to the circus before, and I didn't hear any insane proggery. 

And if there is a circus out there where the music sounds like a Jordan Rudess instrumental breakdown, I must go there immediately.

well, it's not exactly circus/carneval music, but you know exactly what we mean.

Well, yes and no.  Yes, at this point I know exactly what people are referring to when they talk about 'circus music' in Dream Theater - but only because I've seen people use that term so much that I've gotten used to its intended meaning.  But the first time I ever saw someone refer to a Jordan Rudess instrumental passage as 'circus music,' no, I had no idea what they meant at all.  Because JR's signature instrumental breakdowns sound absolutely nothing at all like circus music to me.  It makes me feel like I must be living in some parallel universe where they play different music in circuses. 

[wolven74]

That is such a perfectly brilliant break! I remember driving around listening to that blasted at a red light and that part came up and the people next to me gave me the most odd look. I just tossed up the \m/ and took off when the light turned green. I love it.

[Big Hath]

So I was at the local pool hall for league night tonight, and look at what was on the internet jukebox...



Needless to say, I played it. Twice. Now 40 unsuspecting people know how intense this song is, a few were even headbanging along, and one inspired dude was air drumming.

so Brett Eldredge is pretty hardcore?  Who knew!?

[BlobVanDam]

So I was at the local pool hall for league night tonight, and look at what was on the internet jukebox...



Needless to say, I played it. Twice. Now 40 unsuspecting people know how intense this song is, a few were even headbanging along, and one inspired dude was air drumming.

so Brett Eldredge is pretty hardcore?  Who knew!?

Brett Eldredge is the enemy inside............ the internet jukebox.

[RMGadelha]

Honestly,  JR's section reminds me more of a lunatic theme park music rather than carnival or circus.

[wolven74]

Honestly,  JR's section reminds me more of a lunatic theme park music rather than carnival or circus.

I'd guess this was the intention, considering the lyrical content.

[atmyne]

just stopping by to say this song is actually freaking awesome!
Coming into this as less of a dream theater fan than I have ever been, and not expecting too much, I initially found this as just ok: nothing new, yet sounding energetic. It's like the root of all evil meets panic attack with Mangini sounding better than he did on adtoe: that's cool, I can get down with that.
But after a couple of days giving it random spins, I now think it's really great. It's melodically modest, yet it's still catchy. there isn't even a dull part of this song! Really surprised by this. (Mind you, I'm not the type of person who cares about production and mix and things of that sort, which I have heard people complain about. It sounds fine to me, ESPECIALLY Mangini)
If we can derive the quality of the album from the single, we are in for a high quality Dream Theater album.

[puppyonacid]

One more thing about this song-there's a certain atmosphere to it. Can't put my finger on it.

.....a presence I've not felt since.......

[mikemangioy]

just stopping by to say this song is actually freaking awesome!
Coming into this as less of a dream theater fan than I have ever been, and not expecting too much, I initially found this as just ok: nothing new, yet sounding energetic. It's like the root of all evil meets panic attack with Mangini sounding better than he did on adtoe: that's cool, I can get down with that.
But after a couple of days giving it random spins, I now think it's really great. It's melodically modest, yet it's still catchy. there isn't even a dull part of this song! Really surprised by this. (Mind you, I'm not the type of person who cares about production and mix and things of that sort, which I have heard people complain about. It sounds fine to me, ESPECIALLY Mangini)
If we can derive the quality of the album from the single, we are in for a high quality Dream Theater album.

finally someone who  doesn't care about the mix.. really people, it's all about the music 

[noxon]

... to be able to enjoy the music, it's pretty important that you're actually able to -hear- the music. If it doesn't sound good, it becomes noise. Take Rush's Vapor Trails for example. It's got some good songs, but the album sounds like an industrial workplace, there's just a constant drone of high noises drowning out all the details. Basically, I can't listen to vapor trails because of that.

[BlobVanDam]

just stopping by to say this song is actually freaking awesome!
Coming into this as less of a dream theater fan than I have ever been, and not expecting too much, I initially found this as just ok: nothing new, yet sounding energetic. It's like the root of all evil meets panic attack with Mangini sounding better than he did on adtoe: that's cool, I can get down with that.
But after a couple of days giving it random spins, I now think it's really great. It's melodically modest, yet it's still catchy. there isn't even a dull part of this song! Really surprised by this. (Mind you, I'm not the type of person who cares about production and mix and things of that sort, which I have heard people complain about. It sounds fine to me, ESPECIALLY Mangini)
If we can derive the quality of the album from the single, we are in for a high quality Dream Theater album.

finally someone who  doesn't care about the mix.. really people, it's all about the music 

But the production does directly affect the enjoyment of the music. If an album has poor production, then you can't appreciate the music to its full potential, because you can't hear each note clearly, or not in a balance that complements the necessary elements at the right moments.
My only real complaint about the mix is that JLB is a little low volume at times, which means I can't appreciate his vocal tone or melodies as much as I could. So it's not a trivial factor. Caring about the production IS caring about the music.

[eviljust]

Can somebody tell me which bitrate and format is the digital single on iTunes? Can't see it myself now.

[noxon]

iTunes is always AAC, and all new music on iTunes is encoded with a bitrate of 256kbps

[eviljust]

iTunes is always AAC, and all new music on iTunes is encoded with a bitrate of 256kbps

thanks a lot for the quick reply

[mikemangioy]

just stopping by to say this song is actually freaking awesome!
Coming into this as less of a dream theater fan than I have ever been, and not expecting too much, I initially found this as just ok: nothing new, yet sounding energetic. It's like the root of all evil meets panic attack with Mangini sounding better than he did on adtoe: that's cool, I can get down with that.
But after a couple of days giving it random spins, I now think it's really great. It's melodically modest, yet it's still catchy. there isn't even a dull part of this song! Really surprised by this. (Mind you, I'm not the type of person who cares about production and mix and things of that sort, which I have heard people complain about. It sounds fine to me, ESPECIALLY Mangini)
If we can derive the quality of the album from the single, we are in for a high quality Dream Theater album.

finally someone who  doesn't care about the mix.. really people, it's all about the music 

But the production does directly affect the enjoyment of the music. If an album has poor production, then you can't appreciate the music to its full potential, because you can't hear each note clearly, or not in a balance that complements the necessary elements at the right moments.
My only real complaint about the mix is that JLB is a little low volume at times, which means I can't appreciate his vocal tone or melodies as much as I could. So it's not a trivial factor. Caring about the production IS caring about the music.

I know, but as long as the mix isn't complete garbage I enjoy the song. Take, let's say, Killing Is My Business, the mixing is terrible, but the album is a masterpiece still.

[Ben_Jamin]

Say what you will about the song....it kicks major ass. And that's coming from DT fans that have wandered

[aprilethereal]

iTunes is always AAC, and all new music on iTunes is encoded with a bitrate of 256kbps

thanks a lot for the quick reply

iTunes sucks ass

[puppyonacid]

just stopping by to say this song is actually freaking awesome!
Coming into this as less of a dream theater fan than I have ever been, and not expecting too much, I initially found this as just ok: nothing new, yet sounding energetic. It's like the root of all evil meets panic attack with Mangini sounding better than he did on adtoe: that's cool, I can get down with that.
But after a couple of days giving it random spins, I now think it's really great. It's melodically modest, yet it's still catchy. there isn't even a dull part of this song! Really surprised by this. (Mind you, I'm not the type of person who cares about production and mix and things of that sort, which I have heard people complain about. It sounds fine to me, ESPECIALLY Mangini)
If we can derive the quality of the album from the single, we are in for a high quality Dream Theater album.

finally someone who  doesn't care about the mix.. really people, it's all about the music 

But the production does directly affect the enjoyment of the music. If an album has poor production, then you can't appreciate the music to its full potential, because you can't hear each note clearly, or not in a balance that complements the necessary elements at the right moments.
My only real complaint about the mix is that JLB is a little low volume at times, which means I can't appreciate his vocal tone or melodies as much as I could. So it's not a trivial factor. Caring about the production IS caring about the music.

Is there not an argument here for letting the mix spoil the music for you? I mean let's face it, this is not a bad mix. It's just not suited to many. I think it sounds overly compressed and there isn't much dynamic range. This seems to be the norm and I do think it may be a record label thing but I won't let it detract from DT's music for me.

If it was a bad mix ala When Dream and Day Unite, then I'd get it. Even in that example though many peeps around here accept that mix for what it is and don't let it detract from the album.

Systematic Chaos had a very hot mix.....or it was mastered hot....I dunno but it didn't stop the songs themselves being good or less than good.

I do get it. An audiophile will jump on the stereo imaging, the clipping, the over use of compression.....I hear al lthose things but the way I see it:

Bad song + bad mix = Bad song

Good song + bad mix = Good song

Bad song + good mix = Bad song

Good song + Good mix = Porcupine Tree

Whereas the mix will effect the sound of the song, I don't see that it'll effect the quality of the song in question. A good song is a good song regardless of the mix. BUT(!!!) I take the point. Just my two guineas.

[mikemangioy]

Bad song + bad mix = Bad song

Good song + bad mix = Good song

Bad song + good mix = Bad song

Exactly what I wanted to say.