Octavarium vs. Systematic Chaos

[KevShmev]

I didn't see this thread or poll anywhere, so I thought it would be fun to do. 

These are my two least favorite DT albums, but if I had to choose one over the other, I am taking Systematic Chaos.  While it doesn't have any single song I personally would call one of their best, at least the bulk of it is pretty fun, and I can usually turn it on and let it play and enjoy the vast majority of it.  Meanwhile, while Octavarium the song is dynamite, the majority of the other songs on that CD simply bore me.  It is rare for DT to bore me, but the bulk of that CD does.  While SC is probably DT's least artistic and creative CD ever, at least it is fun. 

[Mosh]

It's weird, I really enjoy the sort of accessible radio friendly edge they took with Octavarium. I was still getting into DT and prog in general when I bought it so it was an easy album to get into. Songs like I Walk Beside You and The Answer Lies Within are definitely not my favorite DT songs, but I really enjoy listening to them. Plus the album is so filled with nuggets that I discover something new about it almost every time I listen to it. I love that. The Octavarium quote in Answer Lies Within is one of my favorite DT moments.

On the other hand, Systematic Chaos does very little for me. Some stuff is good but when it's bad it's unbearable. I'm rarely able to get through the entire thing in one sitting, listening to the album just feels like a chore. And while Repentance is actually one of the better songs I think, the way it's placed on the album just slows the entire thing down even more. By the time Prophets of War comes in I've just had enough of it. Easily my least favorite DT album.

Plus Octavarium is my favorite song of all time, so that definitely gives it an edge. 

[BlobVanDam]

I'll go with Octavarium.
SC flows a bit better than Octavarium (Octavarium's weak tracks are perfectly spaced to ruin the flow of the album), but Octavarium's got more great songs.
TROAE, These Walls, PA, SS and Octavarium are all excellent, most of them top DT songs for me. SC has 2 or 3 songs I'd rank as highly, and while the rest of the songs are far better than the remaining tracks on SC, overall I'd still give Octavarium the edge.

[orcus116]

Octavarium. I struggle to get through SC.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

SC is one of my favorite DT albums. Octavarium is one of my least favorite (though the title track is great).

[Bolsters]

Octavarium. I struggle to get through SC.

Same here.

Personally, I like almost every song on Octavarium, the exception being Never Enough which I don't really like at all. On the other hand, there's very little on Systematic Chaos that I go back to. So this was an incredibly easy choice for me.

[Luigi]

Octavarium is a dissapointing album, but I prefer it instead of SC all the day.

SC and BC&SL, for a long list of reasons, are disasters (I really hate those albums).

[Fisi]

I probably don't dislike Systematic Chaos as much as some others here, but I still think it's one of the weaker ones, whereas Octavarium is a really good one. Fortunately I've never understood the 'boring' aspect of Octavarium, in my opinion it's just a collection of excellent songs and some good ones.

[Luigi]

Since SDOIT, DT were getting a little bit worst in every album, but Octavarium still was pretty much decent.

SC was a jump into obvious decadence, and BC&SL was their lower point.

[TheGreatPretender]

Systematic Chaos is my third favorite DT album, so it definitely gets my vote. Octavarium is not as good as the sum of its parts, IMO. I'll listen to Octavarium's songs separately when I feel like it, but with the other DT albums, I'm more inclined on listening to the actual albums, from beginning to end.

SC was a jump into obvious decadence,

I don't know what you mean by decadence, but it sounds like a compliment.

[black_biff_stadler]

SC easily for me. I bought 8VM on its release day and it remains the single most disappointing release day purchase of my life for any band. Even though I like it now, The Root of All Evil had me almost pissed with disappointment upon first listen since I knew it was supposed to go with TGP and TDS in the AA saga. I expected a life-changing metal opus as the other two were, and remain, for me. It's never even come remotely close. TALW is about as bad as I've ever heard them. IWBY and TW just reinforced my feelings that began on ToT that they were losing their creative edge and borrowing too much from their contemporaries. PA hooked me instantly since its intro was the heaviest, most adventurous thing since TGP. Even my disdain for JLB's effeminate verse vocals couldn't dampen my spirits and the solo section is fantastic. NE continued the same gripe I had about TALW/IWBY but at least had the unison section (still a tad lacking though since I kept thinking JR or JP was about to blow the roof off with a signature solo.) SS bored me to no end and 8VM had me ready to give the disc away since I was expecting something on par with ACOS given its length and the 4 minute Continuum wank started it off on the wrong foot and not one section ever sounded good to me. It's the only DT album that I could call unlikeable from an overall standpoint.


After 8VM's woes, the bar was pretty low for SC. I expected a bad album, hoped for a return to form, and wouldn't have been surprised if they somehow got back on track. ItPoE1 knocked my socks off. Especially the chill part just after the 2-minute mark (I instantly got an Awake vibe which had me giddy.) Forsaken struck me as a pisspoor stab at Evanescence and it reeked of "forced single" all the way. CM and TDEN, while well below the gold standard of their earlier metal ass kickers, were a welcome breath of fresh air after 8VM and my first listening of Forsaken. Repentance was boring but still very enjoyable for me. PoW felt like Never Enough's wussy little brother. TMoLS is, much like Repentance, a boring but redeemably good song. ItPoE2 drags on badly but has its moments.

In the end, both albums were ruined by DT (MP?) forcing "influences" into the mix instead of digging deeper for something unique and more natural for the DT sound but at least SC tickles my dick a little bit here and there.

[mellotron_scratch]

Octavarium. Not a huge fan of a lot of the stuff on SC (especially the lyrics)

[fadetoblackdude7]

Octavarium, by far. It only has 1 weak track (Never Enough) IMO.

Systematic Chaos, on the other hand, has a few weak tracks (CM, TDEN, PoW)

[Luigi]

Systematic Chaos is my third favorite DT album, so it definitely gets my vote. Octavarium is not as good as the sum of its parts, IMO. I'll listen to Octavarium's songs separately when I feel like it, but with the other DT albums, I'm more inclined on listening to the actual albums, from beginning to end.

SC was a jump into obvious decadence,

I don't know what you mean by decadence, but it sounds like a compliment.

Musical decadence (dumby concept and lyrics -excepting Repentance-, bad mixing, etc.).

You know: more and more steps into that forced trash-metalish style induced by Portnoy (with BC&SL as a horrible pinnacle).

[?]

SC has only 2 tracks I can listen to in full (the first 2) and includes so many of my bottom 20 DT songs that I have to vote for Octavarium. 8V has its fair share of weaker songs as well, but they are boring, not cringeworthy (with the exception of Never Enough). That said, these 2 albums are the weakest DT have ever released IMO.

[BlobVanDam]

Systematic Chaos is my third favorite DT album, so it definitely gets my vote. Octavarium is not as good as the sum of its parts, IMO. I'll listen to Octavarium's songs separately when I feel like it, but with the other DT albums, I'm more inclined on listening to the actual albums, from beginning to end.

SC was a jump into obvious decadence,

I don't know what you mean by decadence, but it sounds like a compliment.

Musical decadence (dumby concept and lyrics -excepting Repentance-, bad mixing, etc.).

You know: more and more steps into that forced trash-metalish style induced by Portnoy (with BC&SL as a horrible pinnacle).

Geez, can you at least try to be respectful? Or at least pretend to try to be respectful?

[MoraWintersoul]

I dislike only half of Octavarium, but almost all of SC, so this is an easy choice.

The albums dramatically differ in precisely one aspect - 8VM is a result of a very strict musical concept, and SC was the first album where they went into the studio without this grand plan of what they'd write ever since Jordan came on board. I think DT works best when they operate somewhere in between those two ends of the spectrum.

[robwebster]

Ooh! Good question.

I mean, Octavarium by miles for me, Octavarium's... possibly not always my favourite, but certainly my most-loved album, if that makes sense? It's the album that I will listen to until the disc doesn't play music any more, just noise punctuated by scratches. This means that I go on-and-off with actually listening to the songs more than I do with any other album, but I fatigue myself because I love it so much, rather than because it doesn't take much listening. I genuinely think it's brilliant, and while it's not the creative pinnacle of Dream Theater's career, it's the album that interests me the most, and appeals to the qualities I like. It's got great solos, it's got diversity, it's got wacky musicianship, but I love that it's underscored by that pop sensibility that DT don't really bring out so often. I feel like it's an album where every solo is earned, rather than just chucked in, and that makes it so much more satisfying for me. It's also got some very musical solos - the instrumental section in Never Enough being the most overlooked gem in DT's discography.

That said, Systematic Chaos is so very clearly its counterpart that it's unreal. Everything about it - it's like Octavarium's evil twin. Not just structurally (although it is - starts with a signature mid-length DT tune, follows up with some obvious singles and then becomes ever less radio friendly until it culminates in a pair of increasingly-lengthy epic blowouts,) but very much in its discipline. The "approach" that's taken - the styles they dip into aren't the standard DT fare, it's like the band are exploring a very different zone in a very similar way. Which, I think, makes them utterly comparable, but also different in a more meaningful way than BCSL is to either album - which is structurally very different, but feels a little bit like a bookend. "In conclusion, here is that music what we do."

So yes, great comparison!

[Luigi]

Systematic Chaos is my third favorite DT album, so it definitely gets my vote. Octavarium is not as good as the sum of its parts, IMO. I'll listen to Octavarium's songs separately when I feel like it, but with the other DT albums, I'm more inclined on listening to the actual albums, from beginning to end.

SC was a jump into obvious decadence,

I don't know what you mean by decadence, but it sounds like a compliment.

Musical decadence (dumby concept and lyrics -excepting Repentance-, bad mixing, etc.).

You know: more and more steps into that forced trash-metalish style induced by Portnoy (with BC&SL as a horrible pinnacle).

Geez, can you at least try to be respectful? Or at least pretend to try to be respectful?

I`m only descriptive.  DT have an awesome catalogue, sadly with 2 crap albums (SC and BC&SL), and ADTOE was definitely a big step into the right direction.

There`s no disrespect at all.

And I`m very hopeful about all the indicators sorrounding DT12 (I really have a high expectation).

[BlobVanDam]

Systematic Chaos is my third favorite DT album, so it definitely gets my vote. Octavarium is not as good as the sum of its parts, IMO. I'll listen to Octavarium's songs separately when I feel like it, but with the other DT albums, I'm more inclined on listening to the actual albums, from beginning to end.

SC was a jump into obvious decadence,

I don't know what you mean by decadence, but it sounds like a compliment.

Musical decadence (dumby concept and lyrics -excepting Repentance-, bad mixing, etc.).

You know: more and more steps into that forced trash-metalish style induced by Portnoy (with BC&SL as a horrible pinnacle).

Geez, can you at least try to be respectful? Or at least pretend to try to be respectful?

I`m only descriptive.  DT have an awesome catalogue, sadly with 2 crap albums (SC and BC&SL), and ADTOE was definitely a big step into the right direction.

There`s no disrespect at all.

And I`m very hopeful about all the indicators sorrounding DT12 (I really have a high expectation).

Calling an album crap, or trash-metalish, or dumb, or disasters, or a horrible pinnacle isn't the least bit disrespectful? That's not even descriptive either. That's just plain bashing, which btw is against the forum rules. And that's just in one page of one thread. Try reading them if you want to stick around.

[Luigi]

Systematic Chaos is my third favorite DT album, so it definitely gets my vote. Octavarium is not as good as the sum of its parts, IMO. I'll listen to Octavarium's songs separately when I feel like it, but with the other DT albums, I'm more inclined on listening to the actual albums, from beginning to end.

SC was a jump into obvious decadence,

I don't know what you mean by decadence, but it sounds like a compliment.

Musical decadence (dumby concept and lyrics -excepting Repentance-, bad mixing, etc.).

You know: more and more steps into that forced trash-metalish style induced by Portnoy (with BC&SL as a horrible pinnacle).

Geez, can you at least try to be respectful? Or at least pretend to try to be respectful?

I`m only descriptive.  DT have an awesome catalogue, sadly with 2 crap albums (SC and BC&SL), and ADTOE was definitely a big step into the right direction.

There`s no disrespect at all.

And I`m very hopeful about all the indicators sorrounding DT12 (I really have a high expectation).

Calling an album crap, or trash-metalish, or dumb, or disasters, or a horrible pinnacle isn't the least bit disrespectful? That's not even descriptive either. That's just plain bashing, which btw is against the forum rules. And that's just in one page of one thread. Try reading them if you want to stick around.

SC and BC&SL shouldn`t be in DT catalogue.

Period.

[Lowdz]

Neither album is top tier for me, in fact SC is probably my least favourite DT album. I like parts of it, but it contains many of my least favourite songs. The bits I love are the songs others usually don't- MoLS, Forsaken, the riffs in PoW. Really don't like CM, Repentance, TDEN (ughh).

8V is stronger overall but doesn't hit too many highs. The title track is awesome, I like SS but the rest is same-y. TALW is DT's blandest ballad.

Yeah, probably bottom 2 in the catalogue for me, followed by FII. And yes, I'm counting WD&DU.

[hefdaddy42]

SC and BC&SL shouldn`t be in DT catalogue.

Period.

OK, normally, I would just give you the standard speech that mods give to n00bs when they go offcourse because they are new and don't know any better.  However, bosk1 gave you that one already.  See?

I know you are new here and just familiarizing yourself with the rules and how things are done here, so don't take this as an "official" warning.  But please think a little more about what you are saying and whether your posts invite conflict or otherwise break forum rules before posting.

Plus Blob tried to warn you off your path, and you continued on.  There are ways of expressing your opinions without bashing the band outright.  Heck, I'm not a large fan of either one of these albums, for what I think are good reasons, but I wouldn't bash either one of them the way that you have.

You are officially warned.

[King Postwhore]

I reach for OV8 way more than SC.  BC&SL still gets spins for me.  That's how I judge an album.  Do I still play it with frequency.

[hefdaddy42]

SC, for much the same reasons that Kev gave.

[The Letter M]

As much as SC has grown on me over the years, I still like 8VM quite a bit better.

Octvarium = In The Presence Of Enemies (both are good, and I honestly think ITPOE is just as good!)
Sacrificed Sons < The Ministry Of Lost Souls (slight edge to TMOLS)
Never Enough > Prophets Of Wars (NE is the better Muse-inspired track)
Panic Attack > The Dark Eternal Night (as far as heavy tracks go, PA is better)
These Walls > Forsaken (TW is a slightly better 'single' sounding rock piece)
The Answer Lies Within < Repentance (Repentance is my 3rd fave off SC)
The Root Of All Evil > Constant Motion (CM is good but TROAE just has good riffs and great playing overall)

Couldn't really compare "I Walk Beside You" to any part of SC, so it was left out of the comparisons.

Either way, though, I just enjoy 8VM over-all a bit more. I find myself skipping one or two tracks on SC every now and then.

-Marc.

[TAC]

I didn't see this thread or poll anywhere, so I thought it would be fun to do. 

These are my two least favorite DT albums, but if I had to choose one over the other, I am taking Systematic Chaos.  While it doesn't have any single song I personally would call one of their best, at least the bulk of it is pretty fun, and I can usually turn it on and let it play and enjoy the vast majority of it.  Meanwhile, while Octavarium the song is dynamite, the majority of the other songs on that CD simply bore me.  It is rare for DT to bore me, but the bulk of that CD does.  While SC is probably DT's least artistic and creative CD ever, at least it is fun.

Mark the calendar brother, we're in complete agreement. Well, almost.

I find SC artistic in that there is great variety. You have epic, metal, mellow, pop. It cuts across similar to 8V. SC is heavier but far less serious.

I've always defended SC.  After the pinnacle of Score, I've always looked at SC as a sort of giant exhale from the band. And it plays like that. I'm OK with it.

[Mindflux]

Octavarium, by far. It only has 1 weak track (Panic Attack) IMO.

FTFY

[JayOctavarium]

Why both?


Seriously love them both...


I do tend to listen to SC way more often than 8VRM though

[Mindflux]

I do tend to listen to SC way more often then 8VRM though

YDIW, given your username.

I loved SC when it came out, I still don't find it a bad album but 8VM is my second favorite from DT.

[JayOctavarium]

I do tend to listen to SC way more often then 8VRM though

YDIW, given your username.

I loved SC when it came out, I still don't find it a bad album but 8VM is my second favorite from DT.

8VRM tends to put me to sleep


but that's because of how much I've listened to it. It's like SFAM... they both relax me and I tend to drift off while listening to them... SC on the other hand is balls to the mother effing wall and pumps me up

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Octavarium, by far. Systematic Chaos is DT's second worst album (for me, at least) while Octavarium sits considerably higher.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Systematic Chaos for me. As much as I love Octavarium, there's several tracks on there that I'm not crazy about, whereas SC I pretty much like all the way through.

[Lucien]

Octavarium.

The Root of All Evil has one of my favorite choruses (take all of me... the desires...)

These Walls is just AMAZING. (that final solo always blows me away.)

Panic Attack (not much to say)

Octavarium (I can't say there's anything wrong with the title track. Full Circle is the only part that MIGHT drag on a little bit.)

[PwnsomeWin]

Systematic Chaos is actually one of my favorite DT albums. (Yeah, seriously) While Octavarium has the epic title track and other great songs, I picked Systematic Chaos.