Black Clouds & Silver Linings is still better than Systematic Chaos

[YtseJamittaja]

SC has a couple of great songs (TMOLS, ITPOE), a few good songs (CM, Forsaken, POW), Repentance was boring already in the first listening, TDEN is just too insane for me, as parts of ITPOE also.

BC&SL has great opening track (especially Beautiful Agony section), TCOT is really great (except the pre-chorus, just nonsense) but the others have almost forgiven for me. I haven't listened to AROP twice since the album came out, TSF has a few good and catchy riffs and parts but somehow it's not as good as it should be. TBOT is one of the DT songs I always skip, I don't know why, it's not so bad... Wither is nice but I haven't listened to it for a while.

So I have always thought BL&SL would be much better than SC but now I'm not sure. The more I think about this the more I'm not sure!

ANTR and TCOT against TMOLS, ITPOE and other good songs. And the winner is....


TIE!! 


EDIT: I just listened to AROP again and I can say I almost liked it!!

[Pols Voice]

Honestly, I used to like SC more than I do now. I could probably go the rest of my life without hearing most of that album again. Although a better album, BC&SL doesn't have much replay value for some reason. And I only like 3 or 4 songs on Octavarium. So after that stretch of 3 iffy albums where I felt like giving up on the band, ADTOE was a massive improvement for me.

[chaotic_ripper]

SC is definitely better, and I really like both.
BCASL suffers a bit for the fact it has so few songs, so TBOT and TSF alone drag it down to inconsistent. SC I can pretty much listen to from start to finish. Ok, PoW isn't great, but that's it.

I'd say SC is DT's most underrated album, especially now that FII seems to be getting its due credit.

This.

Although, BCSL has a great guitar tone and JP totally owns that disc. But Wither and TCOT are the only things I still listen to.

[j]

I consider 'em to be about equally mediocre.  Even the one great song on each album (TCOT and ITPOE) is flawed, and the rest of each album ranges from decent (ANTR, AROP, Repentance, TMOLS, etc.) to so weak that I never want to listen to it (TBOT, PoW).

-J

[Mladen]

I've always liked Systematic chaos better than Black clouds and silver linings. However, I think both are great and would certainly rank them higher than most other fans would.

[Kotowboy]

I've never heard WDADU so I rank SC as my least favourite DT album.

[Pols Voice]

I've never heard WDADU so I rank SC as my least favourite DT album.

WDADU is better than SC anyway.

[theseoafs]

SC is definitely DT's worst album -- BCSL, meanwhile, is a generally strong effort that is impaired by what I view to be a few crucial missteps, mostly in the songwriting department.

[Kotowboy]

SC & BCSL are both DT on autopilot for the most part.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

SC & BCSL are both DT on autopilot for the most part.

That's one great quote. Definitely the way I feel about those records (more with SC, because I still listen on a regular basis to A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany which I think are both superb).

[BlobVanDam]

I've never heard WDADU so I rank SC as my least favourite DT album.

WDADU is better than SC anyway.

Lol. SC is a lesser album by DT standards, but WDADU is just a bad album by any standards.

SC & BCSL are both DT on autopilot for the most part.

I just don't get that. To me ADTOE is much more autopilot; very familiar and uninspired to me for the most part. SC and BCASL had surprises and new things, but ADTOE feels like DT going through the motions and retreading familiar ground.

[manticore999]

SC at least had a few good songs. BC&SL didn't have one good song on it.  A complete miss.

[TheGreatPretender]

Obviously it's not as clear as the subject line suggests. Frankly, I love Systematic Chaos and I think it's some of the most interesting music that DT has ever written, all the while really playing up both on the Prog and the Metal, rather than favoring one of the other.
And while I think Black Clouds was pretty good and certainly has its gems, a lot of it felt very dry to me. Like it had too much riffage and not enough melody.

[Zantera]

Personally I think both albums are horrible. SC has ITPOE1 which is at least one redeeming quality, but BC&SL has everything I don't like with DT on one album. Songs that are over 10 minutes that really doesn't need to be that long.

[OsMosis2259]

When Black Clouds first came out, I thought it was a huge step-up from SC. However now that ADTOE is out, I don't think there is that much of a difference to be honest.

The guitar solos on Black Clouds are some of JPs best ones though in my opinion

[KevShmev]

It's funny, because POW is probably one of my favorite songs on SC. 

I wouldn't go that far, but it's at least way better than Forsaken and Constant Motion (which admittedly is not difficult).

I've never heard WDADU so I rank SC as my least favourite DT album.

WDADU is better than SC anyway.

Absolutely.  Sure, it's a little raw, but the songwriting is way better.

[cyberdrummer]

Just relistened to SC. Such a rocking album. MP was right when he said it had 'balls' (though there is a little bit of 'ass' in there too).

[darkshade]

Ironically this SC vs WDADU discussion inspired me to throw the debut on, I usually listen to the RE-Unite album. I must say, I'm enjoying the debut more than I ever have, and even though there's no JLB, I would also argue that WDADU is generally overall better than SC (but SC has much higher highs than the debut, and has the classic (?) line-up).

[Ruba]

Um, no. BC & SL has three good songs (note, good, not amazing or anything like that): ANTR, TBOT and TCOT. TSF is alright, but mostly just a collection of other 12SS-riffs.

SC has In the Presence of Enemies, Repentance and Prophets of War, which all I would rank pretty high. The only song I dislike is Constant Motion.

[Lolzeez]

Nope. SC is better. The only song on that album I really hate is "Prophets Of War". BC&SL has 2 lame songs,2 meh songs,1 decent and 1 excellent song. Yeah...

[Jaq]

SC has aged far better than BC&SL for me. The only songs on SC I don't like these days are POW and Redemption, whereas the only songs I give the time of day to on BC&SL are Wither and TCOT. That's actually a turn around, as when BC&SL came out it was in the middle of my rankings, but these days it sits just above WDADU for worst.

[darkshade]

My rankings:

Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Scenes From A Memory
Octavarium
Images and Words
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Awake
Train of Thought
When Dream and Day Unite
Systematic Chaos
Falling Into Infinity

[Cable]

Ironically this SC vs WDADU discussion inspired me to throw the debut on, I usually listen to the RE-Unite album. I must say, I'm enjoying the debut more than I ever have, and even though there's no JLB, I would also argue that WDADU is generally overall better than SC (but SC has much higher highs than the debut, and has the classic (?) line-up).

Agreed. SC is forced to me, as the album needed to be "cool" (MP). WDADU has it's issues; production, too many ideas and shifts crammed into songs. But I will take WDADU production over the too hot brickwall of SC.

[bosk1]

I don't have a problem with either album.  They each have different things going for them, and different weaknesses. 

To me, SC has some VERY high highs, as well as some low lows.  About 1/3 of the album is outstanding and stacks up well against anything in their catalog.  About 1/3 is pretty good.  And about 1/3 is stuff I either don't care for or flat out dislike.  But I can say about the same thing for Images & Words, Awake, or Falling Into Infinity.  In fact, in terms of percentage of the album that is great/good/not-so-good, I think those 4 albums are pretty close.  If I look at my top 30 DT songs, there are three songs from this album that make it.

Black Clouds, on the other hand, is much more consistent, but much more middle of the road.  ANTR is the only song on that album I would consider spectacular.  But just as there is little way up near the top end of the spetrum, there isn't much down at the bottom either.  The only song I don't listen to and don't care for is The Best Of Times.  And even that isn't a bad song.  I just don't connect with it and don't find it interesting.  The majority of the album is simply "good."  And the problem with that is that there is so much other music out there, both within the DT catalog and outside of it, that I rarely find myself wanting to listen to BCSL.  Going back to my top 30, ANTR is the only song that makes the cut.

So to sum up, Black Clouds is probably a much more consistent album.  But it is also the less interesting of the two, despite a couple of songs on Systematic Chaos that I consider clunkers.

[Buddyhunter1]

I definitely hold the more modern era of DT albums in higher regard than a lot of people on here, but even I think that Systematic Chaos is one of their worst albums. It's got some great highs like ITPOE and Constant Motion (seriously), but it probably has the highest concentration of poor and below-average songs. Ministry Of Lost Souls is easily in my top five least favorite DT songs of all time.
Black Clouds on the other hand I think is quite underrated. Maybe that's just because it was the first DT album I got into, but it still holds up pretty well. It's not one of their absolute best, but it's consistently great throughout.

[GasparXR]

The first time I heard The Shattered Fortress, I hadn't heard any of the 12SS songs except for the Greatest Hit version of The Root of All Evil (cuts the intro out). I actually enjoyed it more once I was familiar with all of the songs. Part X. isn't all that interesting, but Part XI. is incredible. The way the "into the kingdom" verse is reprised but entirely in 6/8, as opposed to switching between 6/8 and 5/8, and in a much softer, somber form. The way the key changes to reprise The Root of All Evil's chorus works very well in my opinion, as if they picked the perfect chords to transition from and to. It's also much more triumphant-sounding mostly in part due to the availability of lower power chords on the 7-string guitar (where TROAE is the only 12SS song to use a 6-string Eb guitar) and Jordan's use of the Omnisphere patches. So epic. The final part also is very good with the only part unique to TSF, and of course the reprise of the kick-ass theme from The Glass Prison. It would be overall better if the first section was more interesting (the very beginning with the TDS intro reference is fine, it's just the parts after it), but the amazing parts make the listen worthwhile.

It's too underrated.

[Kotowboy]

I just don't get that. To me ADTOE is much more autopilot; very familiar and uninspired to me for the most part. SC and BCASL had surprises and new things, but ADTOE feels like DT going through the motions and retreading familiar ground.

To me : ADToE is DT getting back to how they used to sound before all the " It's gotta have balls and rororor "

[Kotowboy]

It's interesting that there are only 2 of the same line up from WDADU on ADTOE.

[BlobVanDam]

I just don't get that. To me ADTOE is much more autopilot; very familiar and uninspired to me for the most part. SC and BCASL had surprises and new things, but ADTOE feels like DT going through the motions and retreading familiar ground.

To me : ADToE is DT getting back to how they used to sound before all the " It's gotta have balls and rororor "

In other words: retreading familiar ground. I never feel like listening to ADTOE, because their older albums pull off that sound so much better. ADTOE just makes me want to listen to SFAM instead.

[Lowdz]

SC is the worst DT album. By a long way.
BC&SL is a very good DT album.

No other DT album has 3 songs I can't stand to listen to (TDEN, CM and R). It's high are great (everything else) but I hardly ever listen to it.

[bosk1]

3 songs I can't stand to listen to (TDEN, CM and R).

Jack Butler most certainly does NOT approve.

[Full Speed]

I don't overly like either album, but if I had to pick one it would be BC&SL. I only like one song from each album (POW from SC and TCOT from BC&SL), but BC&SL at least has parts of other songs that I really like (soft section of ANTR, ending of TSF, guitar solo in TBOT). I could comfortably live the rest of my life without listening to the rest of SC.

[ytserush]

I've been going through the DT discography chronologically over the last few weeks, and yesterday I listened to Systematic Chaos, which is a great album of course, but the second half of the album really brings it down IMO, save ITPOE2. Today I listened to BC&SL and the power of the album blew me away for the first time in a while (I over-listened to it when it came out). There's just something about it that makes it stand out against SC. Thought I'd share my thoughts, as both albums have had plenty of time to age having been out for 4-6 years, and the newness of Black Clouds has faded for some time now. For all the things good about it, SC is still a bottom 3 DT album for me, whereas BC&SL is a top 5 DT album.

I figured this out the first time I heard Systematic Chaos unfortunately.

[TheGreatPretender]

I could comfortably live the rest of my life without listening to the rest of SC.

But if you don't listen to it, then you' aren't truly living.

[Implode]

I would say that SC is one of their most consistent albums. More consistent than BC&SL. BC&SL has everything from boring to amazing. But SC is just consistently boring for me.