POLL: DT using vocal backing tracks - your opinion?

[cosmotobe]

Having seen DT live on 17 concerts since 1998 I must sadly realize that DT no longer is my favorite live band. Some friends of mine and I never missed any of DT's tours until now. The last two concerts were somehow disappointing for us, but not because of MM vs. MP. Some of us do miss MP's drumming style and stage presence a little bit. But MM also is an amazing drummer, technically he might be even better. So DT still put on a great show.

BUT:
It's the vocal backing tracks that ruin the live feeling completely. How can I enjoy a concert when I always have to wonder if I hear live vocals or playback vocals? I've seen nightwish in 2000 and heard the huge amount of vocal backing tracks. Then I decided to never go to a nightwish concert again although it is one of my favorite bands. For DT it might turn out the same. I am deeply disappointed by DT. And I know at least 5 other people who feel the same...

WHY?
I love to hear and see the same event simultaniously. Hearing something that does not happen on stage is so strange and irritating for me that I feel like being cheated by the band. I know the situation is difficult without MP's vocals. But JP can sing and what about JR, JMX and MM? JR should rather learn to sing than playing back JLB's  vocal samples... Besides that I also think that JLB does not need so much "choir" sounding in the studio. It's on his solo albums and now he brought it to DT. He is still in my top 3 favorite vocalists but I don't like these 3xJLB-choruses. Just NOW that he has gained back his full vocal abilities and imho sounds better than ever - why does he do this cruel thing and bury his great voice under a wall of backing tracks???

Sorry. Just a disappointed fan. What do you think about DT using vocal backing tracks?

What's next? JP needs a guitar backing track during his solos. Is that OK for you, too?

[Adami]

With some bands, I have no problems with backing tracks. Nightwish, Kamelot, Iced Earth, Dimmu Borgir, Devin Townsend, Within Temptation etc etc. However DT....well they really don't need them. I personally play with backing tracks in my band, and every song is to a click, so clearly I have no problem with it in principle. But I see no reason for DT to do it other than to sound as close to the CD as possible.

And THAT annoys me. When a band tries to sound identical to their CDs live. If I want to hear the CD, I'll put on the damn CD. When I see a band live, I want a different thing.

[TheGreatPretender]

And THAT annoys me. When a band tries to sound identical to their CDs live. If I want to hear the CD, I'll put on the damn CD. When I see a band live, I want a different thing.

I was even a little disappointed when Bridges In The Sky opened with the shaman roar. Yeah, I'm generally not a fan of DT trying to supplement its life songs with all the sampling they did on the album. Backing Vocals, I think, should be saved for things where you need two voices singing different parts, like in Take The Time chorus, or Change of Season where it goes, "We can learn from the past, but those days are gone," and then the other voice cuts in, "We can hope for the future, but there may not be one."
But if it's just for harmonies, it's not necessary, especially since the harmonies in ADTOE aren't even that good.

[KevShmev]

It doesn't bother me.

cosmotobe, if it is irritating to hear something that wasn't played on stage, did it bother you when the band always played Metropolis but with the intro from the CD?  Same for A Change of Seasons?  Or Pull Me Under (which they did on the Awake tour)?  Just wondering.

[ResultsMayVary]

Where's the 'who cares' option? DT's use of the backing tracks is obviously to add things to what James is singing or samples, etc. The backing tracks do not provide a primary replacement for one of the member's abilities live. Ex. There are certain backing tracks with James vocals, but he is always singing the lines while the backing vocals are used in certain passages where vocals are layered on the actual album. See 'On The Backs of Angels' and 'Lost Not Forgotten' for where there are several vocals lines at once. The way they're using the backing tracks right now does not bother me at all.

cosmotobe, if it is irritating to hear something that wasn't played on stage, did it bother you when the band always played Metropolis but with the intro from the CD?  Same for A Change of Seasons?  Or Pull Me Under (which they did on the Awake tour)?  Just wondering.

+1

The Shaman's roar at the beginning of Bridges In The Sky is the same thing as playing the intros to Metropolis, The Dance of Eternity, etc, etc.

[TheGreatPretender]

Although I will say one thing: I'll take Backing tracks over MP's singing any day of the week.

[Adami]

It doesn't bother me.

cosmotobe, if it is irritating to hear something that wasn't played on stage, did it bother you when the band always played Metropolis but with the intro from the CD?  Same for A Change of Seasons?  Or Pull Me Under (which they did on the Awake tour)?  Just wondering.

Did DT really use a sample for the intro to ACOS? That seems...pointless. Unless I misunderstood what you meant.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm fairly indifferent to it overall, although with the two options, I voted I don't like it. It's the one area where they are definitely musically lacking without MP, and for me it's a bit of a distraction knowing it's not entirely live, although as long as they're not pretending they're doing something live that they're not, I'm pretty much fine with it.
They sample the backing guitar for the TCOT intro, and that's fine to me, because JP is clearly playing the solo. He's not trying to mime a guitar part he's not playing. That's the difference between DT using taped parts, and a pop artist using a backup tape for instruments with people pretending to play instruments on stage. It's all in the honesty and transparency of it, rather than the act itself for me.

It's very standard practice for a lot of bands these days to use backing tapes for the backup vocals (and keyboards/orchestras/samples etc), so I'm not going to single out DT for doing it. Musically, it's damn impressive what they pull off entirely live night after night, especially with JR's keyboard parts, so it doesn't take away that much.

[DebraKadabra]

I couldn't care less, to be completely honest.

[KevShmev]

It doesn't bother me.

cosmotobe, if it is irritating to hear something that wasn't played on stage, did it bother you when the band always played Metropolis but with the intro from the CD?  Same for A Change of Seasons?  Or Pull Me Under (which they did on the Awake tour)?  Just wondering.

Did DT really use a sample for the intro to ACOS? That seems...pointless. Unless I misunderstood what you meant.

I am 99% sure that is how they did it when it was played frequently on the ToT tour.  Someone correct me if I am wrong.  And I think that is cool, in the case of all three songs I mentioned. You have that pre-recorded intro while the stage is dark, and then, BAM, the live band all comes in at the same time the stage lights  come up; great way to start a song off, and when they did it with Pull Me Under to start the show on the Awake tour, it worked wonderfully.   

[TheGreatPretender]

They sample the backing guitar for the TCOT intro, and that's fine to me, because JP is clearly playing the solo. He's not trying to mime a guitar part he's not playing.

I actually think, when it comes to live music, that when there's a guitar riff and a guitar solo playing at the same time, it's cooler when the band abandons the riff all together and just focus on the solo. It allows us to hear the bass better and gives a different feel to it, and definitely sounds more authentic. So yeah, when it comes to using sampled guitar riffs, I don't see the point. I mean, then I might as well be listening to the Album version.

[ResultsMayVary]

They sample the backing guitar for the TCOT intro, and that's fine to me, because JP is clearly playing the solo. He's not trying to mime a guitar part he's not playing.

I actually think, when it comes to live music, that when there's a guitar riff and a guitar solo playing at the same time, it's cooler when the band abandons the riff all together and just focus on the solo. It allows us to hear the bass better and gives a different feel to it, and definitely sounds more authentic. So yeah, when it comes to using sampled guitar riffs, I don't see the point. I mean, then I might as well be listening to the Album version.

The Count of Tuscany is a different situation than the ones you describe, however. Its just JP's solo, clean guitar backing, and then nothing else. Without the clean guitar backing what he is playing in the solo, it certainly wouldn't sound very good live.

[TheGreatPretender]

The Count of Tuscany is a different situation than the ones you describe, however. Its just JP's solo, clean guitar backing, and then nothing else. Without the clean guitar backing what he is playing in the solo, it certainly wouldn't sound very good live.

Oh, right. I see what you're saying.

[BlobVanDam]

They sample the backing guitar for the TCOT intro, and that's fine to me, because JP is clearly playing the solo. He's not trying to mime a guitar part he's not playing.

I actually think, when it comes to live music, that when there's a guitar riff and a guitar solo playing at the same time, it's cooler when the band abandons the riff all together and just focus on the solo. It allows us to hear the bass better and gives a different feel to it, and definitely sounds more authentic. So yeah, when it comes to using sampled guitar riffs, I don't see the point. I mean, then I might as well be listening to the Album version.

I agree, although that is a bit of a special case as it's just the rhythm guitar and the solo, no bass or drums to support it. The alternative would have been to have JR sample a guitar and play the part, which I would have preferred, but no big deal in that case. It's obvious it's not JP playing it, and there's no focus or lighting on anyone else, so it ultimately creates a cool intro moment.


edit: Myung'd by ResultsMayVary.

[ResultsMayVary]

The Count of Tuscany is a different situation than the ones you describe, however. Its just JP's solo, clean guitar backing, and then nothing else. Without the clean guitar backing what he is playing in the solo, it certainly wouldn't sound very good live.

Oh, right. I see what you're saying.

I would agree you with the standard situation during a particular solo section, which DT already does anyway. JP plays his solo, JMX is usually doubling the rhythm, etc. They don't introduce a backing track with guitar playing the rhythm during the guitar solo. If they did that, I would draw the line there because the rhythm is already established and played by the other band members.

[Bongasti]

I find this somewhat annoying. When I notice a vocal backing track in a chorus on something, it always makes me wonder "Well, what else are they not actually playing there on stage?".

[cosmotobe]

Added the "don't care" option as requested.
(I did not expect so much indifference.)

@Adami:
You explained it very good. I also like all the bands you listed!

cosmotobe, if it is irritating to hear something that wasn't played on stage, did it bother you when the band always played Metropolis but with the intro from the CD?  Same for A Change of Seasons?  Or Pull Me Under (which they did on the Awake tour)?  Just wondering.

Well, for me that's something completely different. I like it because it's obvious to be an intro sample. It creates tension and excitement while waiting for the band to kick in with the real live sound. Everyone can distinguish between the sample and the band's performance. You can tell fake from truth. But you can't always be sure with the backing tracks on the ADToE tour. That annoys me. JLB falls and stops singing but the vocals are still there.

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=32927.0

I am a musician and I know what's happening here. But I would not invite a friend to a DT concert anymore, because I don't want to answer any questions about JLB using playback.

I find this somewhat annoying. When I notice a vocal backing track in a chorus on something, it always makes me wonder "Well, what else are they not actually playing there on stage?".

Jep!

[nikatapi]

I like it the way DT use the backing track. Nothing excessive, it compliments James singing very much.

[Scorpion]

I'm not that bothered by it, tbh.

What bothers me is that, now that they are using backing tracks, haven't started playing Don't Look Past Me.

[YtseJamittaja]

And THAT annoys me. When a band tries to sound identical to their CDs live. If I want to hear the CD, I'll put on the damn CD. When I see a band live, I want a different thing.

I was even a little disappointed when Bridges In The Sky opened with the shaman roar. Yeah, I'm generally not a fan of DT trying to supplement its life songs with all the sampling they did on the album. Backing Vocals, I think, should be saved for things where you need two voices singing different parts, like in Take The Time chorus, or Change of Season where it goes, "We can learn from the past, but those days are gone," and then the other voice cuts in, "We can hope for the future, but there may not be one."
But if it's just for harmonies, it's not necessary, especially since the harmonies in ADTOE aren't even that good.

Agree with you. I like you. 

[Tomislav95]

I'm not that bothered by it, tbh.

What bothers me is that, now that they are using backing tracks, haven't started playing Don't Look Past Me.

+1
DLPM is great song. I want hear it live

[robwebster]

I'm not overly enamoured with the backing tracks, but I don't hate them. I've voted "don't like" - I'd rather they just performed live, warts and all. I like the rough edges, I like the authenticity of live music, but as long as they're not miming to them and not trying to deceive the audience, I'm basically fine with it. No objections, but I'm not crazy about it either.

What I do slightly object to though, and I'm sorry about this KevShmev, but I hugely disagree with you invoking the intro tapes. "It's similar, so it's the same, and it's hypocritical to like one and not the other" is kind of a logical fallacy. I'm sure you're not trying to be duplicitous or devious or manufacture consent and that you were posting in good faith, but while they are similar inasmuch as both make use of pre-recorded backing tracks, it's to completely different effect. I really like the intro tapes - I like the dark stage, the mounting excitement, the huge wall of noise when the band takes over. There's an excitement to it, a showmanship - and that applies to Metropolis, ACOS and Pull Me Under where they played the music on the album just as much as it does to The Shaman's Trance where they didn't.

I'm not so hot on backing vocals because it's a level of perfectionism that I don't really look for in live music. What would be more comparable would be, as Blob suggested earlier, a tape of a guitar riff played during the song - during the Peruvian Skies solo, for instance. And there, I'm just as cold to pre-recorded backing vocals as I would be to pre-recorded music. It's not a double standard, it's different techniques.

[cosmotobe]

I want hear it live

lol

[Ben_Jamin]

I really don't care, it adds to the song live. One song where the sample would've Bern better is Light Fuse and Get Away on WDADR.

I'd hate to ask  what about Rush.

[cosmotobe]

I like the authenticity of live music

"Authenticity" is the word I would have used if I was a native english speaker. Thank you!

what about Rush.

I love all of their albums! But I miss a fourth person on stage.

[Ben_Jamin]

Having backing tracks is better than having an extra guy playing behind the stage, that really bugs me.

[ResultsMayVary]

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=32927.0

I am a musician and I know what's happening here. But I would not invite a friend to a DT concert anymore, because I don't want to answer any questions about JLB using playback.

James is singing the higher part of the vocals at this point. The backing track is just the lower vocal line and you can clearly hear his singing over the lower vocal line. The backing track clearly compliments the higher vocal line (as it does on the recording) that James is performing and there is nothing wrong with that. If the issue is the backing tracks were the track compliments James' already present vocals, then there really shouldn't be a problem. James is performing a vocal line and obviously not faking anything since you can clearly hear his performance over the lower vocal line present in the backing track.

[John94]

Doesn't bother me at all. Can't have two James one stage doing the different parts.

[Lowdz]

They sample the backing guitar for the TCOT intro, and that's fine to me, because JP is clearly playing the solo. He's not trying to mime a guitar part he's not playing.

I actually think, when it comes to live music, that when there's a guitar riff and a guitar solo playing at the same time, it's cooler when the band abandons the riff all together and just focus on the solo. It allows us to hear the bass better and gives a different feel to it, and definitely sounds more authentic. So yeah, when it comes to using sampled guitar riffs, I don't see the point. I mean, then I might as well be listening to the Album version.

I agree, although that is a bit of a special case as it's just the rhythm guitar and the solo, no bass or drums to support it. The alternative would have been to have JR sample a guitar and play the part, which I would have preferred, but no big deal in that case. It's obvious it's not JP playing it, and there's no focus or lighting on anyone else, so it ultimately creates a cool intro moment.


edit: Myung'd by ResultsMayVary.

I thought that's how they did it live. Hmm. Would be better if JR played it on guitar or synth really.

I would be annoyed if it was being done excessively, and I would count TCOT as excessive as the band could play it without tapes. Backing vocals I don't care about on the whole. rather that than flat out of key wailing. The music should be played by the band. As an intro I don't mind at all.

[wolfking]

I don't care, it's a common thing these days, it doesn't bother me.

[Elite]

I don't care, it's a common thing these days, it doesn't bother me.

This, but with the added thing that I believe a band should never have to rely on them to sound good.

[Cable]

I don't like it.

Not sure if it was said, but I cannot really tell the two times I have seen them with the canned backing vox.

Really, at the end of the day, as long as JLB is not lip syncing, then it is not a huge deal.

[chrisbDTM]

dont care. not even close to being a big deal

[2Timer]

I voted don't like it. I was indifferent for the most part, considering all the samples JR triggers, but then, I'm getting annoyed by that too anymore. The lack of vocal harmonies totally killed most Scorpions songs, but they didn't care,they just didn't have the harmonies live, and I doubt the crowd cared, so why should DT's fans care?
And I feel like JR could pull some of the vocals live. I wonder if they've tried it.

[MoraWintersoul]

I voted for "I don't care". There are five men in this band and they all play it when they hit the studio. But sometimes the same five men can't pull it off live when there's, you know, not six of them or something. And then they can use backing tapes, and whatever they want to use them for - backing vocals, rhythm guitar doing the solo - it's cool for me.

An example provided by one of my fave bands - Sonata Arctica had a guitarist who sang backing vocals like a boss. When they replaced him with a dude who is an excellent guitarist but couldn't sing a note in tune to save his life, they tried going with three backing vocalists - the keyboardist who half-sings and half-growls everything (and sometimes that sounds good for exchanges), an indifferent, not-bad-but-not-good-either bass player, and that guitarist who can't sing. They ruined pretty much every other line until the band switched to backing tapes completely.

Yes, someone going out of tune on backing vocals can sometimes be hillarious, but if Dream Theater don't want that, and want JP + some tapes, there's nothing we can do about it. Sure, it's annoying that they're trying to sound as close as the studio version, but if that's what it takes for them to be happy and relaxed and satisfied with their show... you know what, if I saw them live, I would be too busy rocking out to care.

*hopes not to get ridiculed for listening to Sonata Arctica*