The "would be top 10 if not for ___" thread

[bosk1]

*Disclaimer*  There isn't a single DT album I dislike.  None.  But I'm listening to Black Clouds right now, and am once again reminded of how the album continues to be a disppointment to me.  There are three songs in particular that could easily be top 10 songs, but have things that take the songs down a notch or two, which is really disappointing.  Normally, I don't consider things that I don't like to be "flaws."  It's just that I personally don't like it; no big deal; move along.  But...well, I'll just list them.

-A Nightmare To Remember:  Love this song to pieces.  I would love to see it live someday.  It is near flawless.  But (1) the "RRrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrr!" just doesn't make sense.  Contrary to many, I love the part that immediately precedes it, and I think MP's vocals add just the right touch that that section needs.  But the fake roar just doesn't fit.  (2) The instrumental section feels just a shade too long and repetitive.  Shave about 30-60 seconds from it, and we're golden.  (3)  The blast beat.  It's cool that Mike tried it.  If done right, I think it absolutely could have fit the song.  But it sounds sloppy and off time.  They should have either had him keep working at it to get it right, brought in someone who could lay down a better version of it for the album version of the song, or just left it off and just gone with some of Mike's sick double bass and tom fills instead.  I could even just dismiss #2 as not that big a deal if #1 and #3 weren't there.  But it's just a shame that these elements take what would be a top 10 song (and probably pretty high in my top 10) and drop it down to somewhere in the middle of the DT discography.

-The Shattered Fortress:  This could perhaps be my favorite 12SS song and would also probably be top 10, or at least close to it.  But the transition back into the Repentence-like slow section and then the "take all of me" reprise not only kills the song's momentum, but feels very forced and unnecessary.  I think all the other 12SS reprises are awesome and well-done.  But it is this point in the song where I really feel it starts to feel like they forced too much in.  From a lyrical standpoint, I love what Mike did here.  It fits the overall structure of the 12SS beautifully.  But musically, it just doesn't work for me and kills the song.

-The Count of Tuscany:  The volume swell interlude is pretty cool.  The rest of the song is pretty cool.  These two pretty cool parts do not go well together the way the song is arranged.  I like everything else about the song (and, yes, that includes the lyrics).  But the interlude kills the song's momentum, and even though it is a nice section, it is too long and too mellow to be sunk right in the middle of the song.  Yet another one that could be close to a top 10, but suffers and makes me lose interest when it really shouldn't because it has so much going for it.

Anyhow, not to have yet another gripe thread, but I thought this might be an interesting discussion.  So what are your "near misses" or "almost top 10 if not for _" songs?

[FlyingBIZKIT]

To be honest, I think A Nightmare to Remember is fine, just shorten the solo section after the "Beautiful Agony" part.

The Shattered Fortress also suffers from a much too long solo section.

The Count of Tuscany, IMO, is just right.


ITPOE is a great song, but it probably doesn't make my top 50. I just wish part 2 had been much better. It was nice, but the way part 1 was set up, 2 should have been spectacular.

[BlobVanDam]

There aren't many songs where I feel there's some specific thing holding it back to the point of making a difference between top 10 or not. Usually I either like a song as is, or not.

There are only a couple of exceptions I can think of off the top of my head-

TCOT - I love this song as is, and most of the song is among the best stuff DT has ever done, but the verse/pre-chorus vocals feel a bit lazily written. The chorus is great though. If the verse and pre-chorus were up to the standard of the rest of the song, this would easily be top 10. As it is, I'd say still easily top 20 though. It's not that there's anything I dislike about it, but the rest of the song just sets a much higher standard. And no, I have no problem at all with the lyrics.

Learning To Live - Not sure this would be a top 10 under any circumstances, but same deal as TCOT basically. The song is mostly amazing, but the vocal melodies suffer for shoehorning the lyrics in. Again, not bad, but the rest of the song is much higher caliber, and a potential 9/10 song is taken down to about a 7.5/10 for me.

edit: thought of another

ITPOE - The solo section in part 2 is not bad, but it doesn't add anything to the song either. The rest of it is pretty amazing. Trim that bit, and it's potential top 20.

And ANTR is already top 10 for me.

[theseoafs]

Great thread.

So, Nightmare. Nightmare could have been a top 10 tune. The first 8 minutes and 30 seconds or so are, in my mind, practically flawless. Things start falling apart at the solo section. The guitar/keyboard tradeoff goes on entirely too long, and could have been cut down severely/eliminated entirely. The riff at 11:05 is particularly ridiculous, and the MP verse is so silly-sounding and unnecessary that it practically ruins the song by itself. The riff at 12:05, however, is golden, and things continue on in a more or less fine fashion until the blast beats which serve only to prompt further facepalming. As it stands, Nightmare probably still sits around my top 30, because those first 8 minutes are just so good, and because there are only a couple cringe-worthy moments in that final act. But it really bugs me that DT felt like they had to ruin a musical idea as promising as this.

I really want to bring up something from SC here for discussion, because I really dislike it, but none of the songs are really "near-misses", they're just bad all around.

Oh, I know. Ministry of Lost Souls. That instrumental section, dude. Listen, I'm fine with long instrumental sections, but they have to make sense in the context of the song, and TMOLS doesn't even try to do that. In context, it just sounds silly. Had the instrumental section been better, or more fitting, or even nonexistent, I would have liked TMOLS a lot better.

EDIT: Oh, and nobody try to tell me what the instrumental section "represents". Come on, man. I've listened to Dream Theater before. I know it doesn't represent anything.

[Priest of Syrinx]

For most of the SC and BC&SL albums, the songs would have been better without lyrics.

I agree with FlyingBIZKIT, ITPOE set us up for a truly spectacular 2nd act, but came up short.

I've always thought the instrumental section in Metropolis Pt 1 went on for a bit too long, but I can't really say what I'd cut    It's somewhere at the outskirts of my top 10.

It's hard to think of modifying songs to make them fit my personal tastes; unless something really sticks out like a sore thumb, I simply tend to accept what the artists offer and judge the work as a whole.

[iamtheeviltwin]

Two songs that I can think of:

Endless Sacrifice:  I love this song, but the two minute breakdown from about the 5:30 mark really lower my overall opinion of the piece.  Cut those two minutes or so and this would be a top 10 song for me.

6DOIT:  Arguments aside about whether it is one song or not.  The weaker segments of this piece keep it out of my top 10.  The highs are great, but fix War Inside My Head and Goodnight Kiss and this could easily be a top song.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I agree on Nightmare. It's unnecessarily long and the ROROR section is just bad. I think I can dig the blast beat in there, just not the vocal section. It's just not Dream Theater and it sounds forced, not to mention the lyrics are horrendously bad. I still think it's a GREAT song, but without the aforementioned things it could have been top 10.

I agree on Count too.

[bosk1]

Oh, I know. Ministry of Lost Souls. That instrumental section, dude. Listen, I'm fine with long instrumental sections, but they have to make sense in the context of the song, and TMOLS doesn't even try to do that. In context, it just sounds silly. Had the instrumental section been better, or more fitting, or even nonexistent, I would have liked TMOLS a lot better.

Yeah, I hear you.  I didn't list that one because, even if it were "fixed," it still wouldn't be anywhere near my top 10.  The main part of the song is okay.  I don't care for it much, but it's not bad.  The instrumental part is REALLY cool.  But as you said, it feels like it just doesn't fit.  And when the instrumental section of a song is far better than the rest of the song, to me, that doesn't make for a good song.  If they built a song around the instrumental section that fit with the instrumental section better, they easily could have had something as amazing as the other stellar songs on the album (ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion...), and then the decent standalone TMOLS without an extended instrumental section.  But, hey, at the end of the day:  They wrote a song I don't like, but others do like.  Them's the breaks.

[chrisbDTM]

end A Nightmare to Remember exactly at 14:14


drags at the end, and the blast beats are totally off and im surprised MP wasnt able to get them down

[bosk1]

the blast beats are totally off and im surprised MP wasnt able to get them down

Same here.  Giving him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was intentionally playing behind the beat and thinking that was a neat way to "prog up" the blast beat.  But it just sounds off and makes it seem like he couldn't keep it on beat.

[TheGreatPretender]

Space-Dye Vest would be among my very favorites... It if wasn't for all those goddamn voice samples!!! I generally don't like voice samples, but out of all the DT songs, this is the one song where they TRULY ruin what otherwise would've been a true masterpiece. What the fuck were they thinking!? AAARGH!!! 

Okay... I'm good... Home would be a lot higher too if it wasn't for the sex sounds. Yes, it serves the story, but again, it distracts from the music and ruins that section of the song.

You know what? Pretty much any DT song that uses voice samples would be a LOT higher without them. Including Voices, including Honor Thy Father, Repentance etc.

[theseoafs]

the blast beats are totally off and im surprised MP wasnt able to get them down

Same here.  Giving him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was intentionally playing behind the beat and thinking that was a neat way to "prog up" the blast beat.  But it just sounds off and makes it seem like he couldn't keep it on beat.

He's playing triplets, which serve to both "prog up" the blast beat and to make the hits faster (and therefore more impressive).

Had he not played the triplets and just played 16th notes, the blast beats would definitely have been more effective. It always seemed like a strange choice to me.

[bosk1]

the blast beats are totally off and im surprised MP wasnt able to get them down

Same here.  Giving him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was intentionally playing behind the beat and thinking that was a neat way to "prog up" the blast beat.  But it just sounds off and makes it seem like he couldn't keep it on beat.

He's playing triplets, which serve to both "prog up" the blast beat and to make the hits faster (and therefore more impressive).

Had he not played the triplets and just played 16th notes, the blast beats would definitely have been more effective. It always seemed like a strange choice to me.

Oh, interesting.  I didn't realize that.  So then, rather than "Mike can't play blast beats," I guess I just have to chalk it up to a creative idea that just didn't work.  But then again, that's kind of a trademark of the "classic prog rock" musician, right?  Doing things musically that shouldn't work just for the sake of doing them because they're insane.  I guess I can respect that. 

[DebraKadabra]

Oh, I know. Ministry of Lost Souls. That instrumental section, dude. Listen, I'm fine with long instrumental sections, but they have to make sense in the context of the song, and TMOLS doesn't even try to do that. In context, it just sounds silly. Had the instrumental section been better, or more fitting, or even nonexistent, I would have liked TMOLS a lot better.

Completely agreed.

[jcmistat]

Yeah just touching up BC&SL would make it tons better. Still love it though.

I really like Repentance but right after JP's solo ends why does it keep on going? Though it wouldn't go to top 10 cutting it there would make it jump a lot of spots.

[Jaffa]

Hmm... Tricky.  While there are several songs I can think of that I would like a lot better if certain things changed, I'm not sure how many of them would end up making my top ten even with those changes. 

Home might inch its way into my top ten if some of the fat were trimmed just a touch, especially in 'that section'. 

Oh, Breaking All Illusions.  I've never been able to explain this very well, but basically, the song just doesn't feel very cohesive to me.  I know it's a trademark of prog and DT specifically for songs to go all over the place, but most DT songs flow very well (at least to my ears), and BAI just doesn't (again, to my ears).  Breaking All Illusions is a series of brilliant and beautiful musical ideas patched together somewhat sloppily.  Even having listened to the song a hundred times now and knowing exactly what's coming, I still find some of the transitions to be distractingly jarring.  Don't get me wrong, I adore the song anyway.  But if they had just added a few seconds of extra transitional material here and there to smooth things over a bit and improve the flow between sections, it would probably be in my top 10, maybe top 5. 

And also, Octavarium.  I'm just not that fond of the first two sections.  I understand that they're needed as an introduction, but it just feels to me like the song takes way too long to get going.  Once it does get going, it's one of the greatest things ever.  But as it is, I sort of feel like I have to sit through Someone Like Him and Medicate to get to the good stuff.  Of course, I wouldn't want them to change it when so many people love it the way it is.  But for my two cents, I'd love to see an Octavarium that has a quality two-or-three minute mellow introduction leading straight into the section of the song that begins at 12:15. 

Possibly ITPOE with some changes to The Reckoning.

Not sure about any others. 

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

The blast beat.  It's cool that Mike tried it.  If done right, I think it absolutely could have fit the song.  But it sounds sloppy and off time.  They should have either had him keep working at it to get it right, brought in someone who could lay down a better version of it for the album version of the song, or just left it off and just gone with some of Mike's sick double bass and tom fills instead.

That blast beat is really bad yeah and i´m so confused how that take got through!

[chrisbDTM]

i understand that he's going for triplets but if you listen to the ride it doesnt sound like its in sync with the beat. its minor in the end, and the idea was cool. just didnt work out

[mrjazzguitar]

where is this blast beat you guys are talking about?

[Another_Won]

Oh, I know. Ministry of Lost Souls. That instrumental section, dude. Listen, I'm fine with long instrumental sections, but they have to make sense in the context of the song, and TMOLS doesn't even try to do that. In context, it just sounds silly. Had the instrumental section been better, or more fitting, or even nonexistent, I would have liked TMOLS a lot better.

Yeah, I hear you.  I didn't list that one because, even if it were "fixed," it still wouldn't be anywhere near my top 10.  The main part of the song is okay.  I don't care for it much, but it's not bad.  The instrumental part is REALLY cool.  But as you said, it feels like it just doesn't fit.  And when the instrumental section of a song is far better than the rest of the song, to me, that doesn't make for a good song.  If they built a song around the instrumental section that fit with the instrumental section better, they easily could have had something as amazing as the other stellar songs on the album (ITPOE, Forsaken, Constant Motion...), and then the decent standalone TMOLS without an extended instrumental section.  But, hey, at the end of the day:  They wrote a song I don't like, but others do like.  Them's the breaks.

Same for me.  I usually find myself just listening to the instumental part and not the rest.

[Zydar]

where is this blast beat you guys are talking about?

14:44-14:58 in A Nightmare To Remember.

[Scorpion]

TMOLS is great. Leave it that way. I really like the unison.

Others... hmmm... I agree with Jaffa on the Octavarium issue, because that just drags on at the beginning, before Full Circle starts. If that had been fixed, it'd be in my Top 10, definitely.

Burning My Soul: The music is okay, with a great bass intro and a killer keyboard solo. The lyrics pull it down, though. Scrap'em and write new ones, that what would make this song much better. Not necessarily Top 10, but still in my Top 50.

Oh, and while we're talking about FII, New Millenium is a really great song that is pulled down by an atrocious chorus. Again, probably not Top 10 material, but it would be an improvement.

And I totally agree with bosk on BC&SL, though I'd like to add the weird solo stuff that JR does in AROP to the list of things that should be scrapped.

[Pols Voice]

Okay... I'm good... Home would be a lot higher too if it wasn't for the sex sounds. Yes, it serves the story, but again, it distracts from the music and ruins that section of the song.

Agreed.

[SeRoX]

The Best Of Times would be top 10 or so if the lyrics are not that simple and cheesy. The music is beautiful, the solo is one of Petrucci's touching work and James convey the feeling but the lyrics totally ruin it. That's why it's my the least favourite song on BC&SL.

The Count Of Tuscany is great but I don't like the Octavarium vibe on it where the Rudess things begin. I think the thought behind it same as Octavarium intro, though musically they are not same at all. And I don't even go into lyrics debate. One of their worst.

Lines In The Sand is the favourite on the FII but overall it's not that good. It would be if the chorus are not that cheesy and off. They are like DT added them after finishing song.

[Jamariquay]

A Nightmare To Remember. Lots of good potential, but it feels rushed and underdeveloped. I really don't even mind Mike Portnoy's vocal contributions so much anymore. They're not the greatest, but they're also not the main problem with the song (much like Jar Jar Binks isn't really the problem with The Phantom Menace).

The main verse riff feels like they went with the first thing they thought of.

The soloing feels obligatory.  I do like the guitar solo though. But for the love of god, I don't like it enough to hear it for like, three minutes. How long is it? I don't even know.

The instrumental circus-y stuff after "ROAR" is cool, I actually like it, but it doesn't really mesh with the rest of the song. It's sorta like "Well, we have these riffs lying around, we might as well work them in somewhere."

Everything after the last chorus could have been chopped off entirely, and skipped right to the closing chords. Bam, done.

There's definitely good stuff in Nightmare, but.... as it is, I can't honestly call it a pleasant listening experience. The whole time I'm just shaking my fist in futile frustration.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

where is this blast beat you guys are talking about?

Nightmare to Remember check at 14:44 approximately.

[voncorn]

-

[Cool Chris]

Lines in the Sand would have been infinitely (see what I did there?) better without the King's X guy in the choruses. Actually, the choruses as a whole brings it down (I think someone mentioned that)

Agreed with the trimming of In the Presence of Enemies II instrumental trimming.

Space-Dye Vest would be among my very favorites... It if wasn't for all those goddamn voice samples!!! I generally don't like voice samples, but out of all the DT songs, this is the one song where they TRULY ruin what otherwise would've been a true masterpiece. What the fuck were they thinking!? AAARGH!!! 

You know what? Pretty much any DT song that uses voice samples would be a LOT higher without them. Including Voices, including Honor Thy Father, Repentance etc.

Agree with the Space-Dye Vest rant, but for whatever reason don't feel the same about those in Voices and HTF. Wish I could explain why. Maybe they are just mixed in better.

Repentance could have been up there if it didn't have all the apologies and the 12 Traditions (or whatever they are).

Not sure if any song could be bumped up to my top 10 with any 'fixes' though, except maybe a Reckoning-less In the Presence of Enemies

[TheGreatPretender]

Agree with the Space-Dye Vest rant, but for whatever reason don't feel the same about those in Voices and HTF. Wish I could explain why. Maybe they are just mixed in better.

Repentance could have been up there if it didn't have all the apologies and the 12 Traditions (or whatever they are).

Not sure if any song could be bumped up to my top 10 with any 'fixes' though, except maybe a Reckoning-less In the Presence of Enemies

Voices wasn't that bad. I didn't like it, but it didn't flat out ruin the song. With HTF, I didn't like it at all. I edited that part out. Same with Space-Dye Vest, but the 'edited' version turns out to be pretty short and not nearly as amazing as it would have been if the full version didn't have the voices.

[54_diplomats]

I don't mind the samples on Awake in general, but I do agree that if they were removed from Space-Dye Vest it would be an instant top 10 for me. The voice samples doesn't hurt it that much for me though I still love the song.

[senecadawg2]

TCOT would be top 10 if not for the shit lyrics.

Then again... all the finest wines, improve with age.

[TheGreatPretender]

If Take Away My Pain was the original FII Demos version, it'd be much higher for me. And yes, while I could go ahead and count that version, it's kind of crappy quality, and they've never played and recorded that version live, so either way, it's not as enjoyable for me.

[BlobVanDam]

Space-Dye Vest would be among my very favorites... It if wasn't for all those goddamn voice samples!!! I generally don't like voice samples, but out of all the DT songs, this is the one song where they TRULY ruin what otherwise would've been a true masterpiece. What the fuck were they thinking!? AAARGH!!! 

Okay... I'm good... Home would be a lot higher too if it wasn't for the sex sounds. Yes, it serves the story, but again, it distracts from the music and ruins that section of the song.

You know what? Pretty much any DT song that uses voice samples would be a LOT higher without them. Including Voices, including Honor Thy Father, Repentance etc.

The #1 song that would greatly improve without samples for me is 6:00. It's a cool song ruined by endless repetition of obnoxious samples before the song even gets into it.

[54_diplomats]

If I could remove one sample from Space-Dye Vest it would have to be the Conan one. What the hell is that doing there...

[Jaffa]

Ah, well, if we're going to rant about samples on Awake... well.  I don't think 6:00 or Space-Dye Vest would make my top ten list in any case, but I would certainly like them a lot more if some of the samples had been cut or trimmed.  Don't get me wrong, it's not that I hate all samples.  The samples in Voices, for instance, are very well done, adding something to the atmosphere of the song.  But in 6:00 and SDV, the samples actually cheapen the atmosphere.  I mean, 6:00 has excellent vocals and Space Dye-Vest has an absolutely gorgeous melody, and rather than enhancing these qualities, the samples distract me from them. 

With Space Dye-Vest, I at least 'get' what they were going for with the samples.  With 6:00, I can't even say that much.  Even though I've come to enjoy them in a silly sort of way, I am continually baffled as to why they are there.  As far as I can see, the only purpose they serve is lending credence to the idea that Awake is a concept album about Spider-Man.

(I realize this isn't the point of the thread, though; sorry for the tangent.)