The "would be top 10 if not for ___" thread

[theseoafs]

Right. I'm not saying that you have to like the use of samples, because you don't have to like anything that DT does. However, you should be able to recognize the purpose of the samples beyond "distracting you from the music", because the samples are a part of the music.

In general, yes, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. But honestly, in Space-Dye Vest, it really does feel like it's just there to distract from the music. I mean say what you will about the purpose of that Conan O Brien clip, but it's the most out of place sample I've ever heard in any song. If I didn't know better, I'd say they included it to spite Kevin Moore for leaving the band.

I explained this. Multiple people did, actually.

No, the samples are from popular movies and TV shows because the character in the song is supposed to be flipping channels. It serves to heighten the sense of loneliness.

I really like the samples in SDV, as it just showcases how lonely the guy in the song is.

This. I don't even know what the samples are saying sometimes, but they underline the mood of the song perfectly.

[TheGreatPretender]

I know they explained it, but I disagree with that. To me they don't heighten the sense of loneliness or enhance the mood or anything. You know what would've done that for me? To hear the actual piano melody with no distractions.

The only sample in SDV that I thought actually fit was the one where the guy is talking about how "the other guy" sees the girl as an object, but he actually does love her. That I understand, even if it's a little hammy. The rest... No.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I actually feel that but for a couple of things, many of the songs on Awake would be top 10. It's one of the better DT albums, but I can't place any of it's songs in the top 10.

[TheGreatPretender]

I actually feel that but for a couple of things, many of the songs on Awake would be top 10. It's one of the better DT albums, but I can't place any of it's songs in the top 10.

For Awake in General, I'd say the one general thing I'd change about it is the way it was mastered. It has a very grungy, rough around the edges sound to it. I'd rather have it sound clean and polished like the rest of their albums.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I actually feel that but for a couple of things, many of the songs on Awake would be top 10. It's one of the better DT albums, but I can't place any of it's songs in the top 10.

For Awake in General, I'd say the one general thing I'd change about it is the way it was mastered. It has a very grungy, rough around the edges sound to it. I'd rather have it sound clean and polished like the rest of their albums.

That could be some of it. But I also do not prefer the change in vocal style on Awake (from Images); Awake has far grittier vocal tracks that include screaming. Some people mentioned samples. I guess I'd throw that onto the list. I pretty much like all the songs on the album except for Lie, but none of them knock me over.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

I like Awake's production and vocals better than Images.

I love the dark, rough sound Awake has.

[TheGreatPretender]

I like Awake's production and vocals better than Images.

I love the dark, rough sound Awake has.

I think they both need to be remastered to have a sound closer to Six Degrees/Train Of Thought/Octavarium.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I've never purchased a second copy of the same album just for the remasters, but I'd actually buy I&W again if it were to be done in the future.

[Adami]

I like Awake's production and vocals better than Images.

I love the dark, rough sound Awake has.

I think they both need to be remastered to have a sound closer to Six Degrees/Train Of Thought/Octavarium.

A perfect reason why it needn't be remastered.

I've never purchased a second copy of the same album just for the remasters, but I'd actually buy I&W again if it were to be done in the future.

I&W is mastered very well actually. Re-mastering wouldn't make it sound very different, unless it's done worse.

[TheGreatPretender]

Alright, well, we don't need a SECOND thread about whether I&W should be remastered or not. Even though it should be.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I like Awake's production and vocals better than Images.

I love the dark, rough sound Awake has.

I think they both need to be remastered to have a sound closer to Six Degrees/Train Of Thought/Octavarium.

A perfect reason why it needn't be remastered.

I've never purchased a second copy of the same album just for the remasters, but I'd actually buy I&W again if it were to be done in the future.

I&W is mastered very well actually. Re-mastering wouldn't make it sound very different, unless it's done worse.

I mostly meant the drums (snare, especially), although I can hear the clean guitar parts on re-mastered Take the Time a LOT better.

To the topic, I think there are some ToT songs I could add to the list.

Disclaimer: I actually do NOT know a whole lot about production-- I only know what specifically sounds good to me and what doesn't-- and related things of the sort, so forgive me if I use incorrect terms to describe something.

[Adami]

Alright, well, we don't need a SECOND thread about whether I&W should be remastered or not. Even though it should be.

I'll just assume you're saying re-mastered when you mean re-mixed. Because while it could be re-mixed, it is mastered fine.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

I much prefer the original Pull Me Under. The remastered was okay, but it just felt weird.

I'm not one who likes remasters.

[Adami]

https://musicians.about.com/od/musiciansfaq/f/mixingormaster.htm


This should help clarify a few things, so people might stop saying remastered when they mean remixed.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

TANKS! Remastered/Remixed/Refucked you know what I mean 


Adami, I'ma get you a set of Pearl drums

[Adami]

TANKS! Remastered/Remixed/Refucked you know what I mean 


Adami, I'ma get you a set of Pearl drums

That would be awesome. I could really use something to break/smash/blow up/etc.

Just for kicks, make it the most expensive Pearl Drums available.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, usually remixing and remastering go hand in hand when they do album re-releases like that. But yes, you're right, I&W could use a better mix. And once again, I say, it needs a 6 Degrees/TOT/Octavarium treatment when it comes to the way it's mixed. Same with Awake.
Point is, we already have a thread talking about I&W getting remixed.

[MoraWintersoul]

If I didn't know better, I'd say they included it to spite Kevin Moore for leaving the band.

I was just about to go back at this and say "but you do know using all sorts of samples is one of the staples in Kevin's post-DT career", and then I saw the "if I didn't know better"-part 

[Scorpion]

I like Awake's production and vocals better than Images.

I love the dark, rough sound Awake has.

+1

[Ruba]

Sacrificed Sons has completely unnecessary instrumental section. Without it the song would be at least in top 30.

I like Awake's production and vocals better than Images.

I love the dark, rough sound Awake has.

+1

[Scorpion]

Sacrificed Sons has completely unnecessary instrumental section. Without it the song would be at least in top 30.

I don't think so, actually, and I have it in my Top 30. The instrumental section isn't that much of the standout part of the track, true, but it in no way detracts from the enjoyment of this song, imho.

Oh, and on this song: the Score version is fucking killer!

[TheGreatPretender]

The instrumental section isn't that much of the standout part of the track, true, but it in no way detracts from the enjoyment of this song, imho.

I agree, and it's also exactly how I feel about The Ministry Of Lost Souls.

[Scorpion]

Exactly. The hate that TMOLS gets because of the instrumental section astounds me. That unison is pretty damn sweet.

[theseoafs]

It's also entirely out of place and makes little sense in the middle of a ballad.

[Scorpion]

If that's you're opinion, then that's okay, but I never had that problem when listening to that song. I like the song, even with the instrumental.

[On the Backs of Eagles]

The hate that TMOLS gets because of the instrumental section astounds me. That unison is pretty damn sweet.

Indeed.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's also entirely out of place and makes little sense in the middle of a ballad.

Doesn't the idea that music has to conform to some kind of specific format or structure go against the whole point of what Progressive Music is about? I'm sure there are some people out there who'd say that making a 20+ minute song that has so many different sounding passages (i.e. A Change of Seasons or Octavarium) makes little sense, when you could just separate it into 5 shorter songs. It's kind of shortsighted.

Forget that it's a 'ballad'. Just listen to it as a 'piece of music' with no preconceptions as to what kind of a song it is. What you get is a soft, melodic beginning that's contrasted by a heavy and powerful middle section before going back to it's original soft theme for the ending. That's a musical journey in and of itself right there. It's exactly why I like Progressive music in the first place. The fact that within one song, you could have something so different. It has much more of an impact than a song like, let's say, Honor Thy Father where it gets really heavy all throughout.

Also, do you share the same sentiment about A Nightmare To Remember, where it's a really heavy song that has a softer middle section? Do you think the song would've been better if they cut out that "Beautiful Agony" section and just kept it heavy all throughout?

[Jaffa]

Forget that it's a 'ballad'. Just listen to it as a 'piece of music' with no preconceptions as to what kind of a song it is. What you get is a soft, melodic beginning that's contrasted by a heavy and powerful middle section before going back to it's original soft theme for the ending. That's a musical journey in and of itself right there.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean that this specific musical journey is enjoyable.  I mean, if I climb to the top of a mountain, fall off the mountain, and then am teleported back to the top of the mountain, this is all a journey, but that doesn't mean it is a pleasant experience, and it certainly doesn't mean it makes sense. 

However, you should be able to recognize the purpose of the samples beyond "distracting you from the music", because the samples are a part of the music.

I understand that you're technically correct, but let me ask you something: if there was a sample of a high-pitched, ear-splitting scream in the middle of Wait For Sleep, would that sample distract from the music, or would it be part of the music? 

[iamtheeviltwin]

It's also entirely out of place and makes little sense in the middle of a ballad.

Doesn't the idea that music has to conform to some kind of specific format or structure go against the whole point of what Progressive Music is about? I'm sure there are some people out there who'd say that making a 20+ minute song that has so many different sounding passages (i.e. A Change of Seasons or Octavarium) makes little sense, when you could just separate it into 5 shorter songs. It's kind of shortsighted.

Forget that it's a 'ballad'. Just listen to it as a 'piece of music' with no preconceptions as to what kind of a song it is. What you get is a soft, melodic beginning that's contrasted by a heavy and powerful middle section before going back to it's original soft theme for the ending. That's a musical journey in and of itself right there. It's exactly why I like Progressive music in the first place. The fact that within one song, you could have something so different. It has much more of an impact than a song like, let's say, Honor Thy Father where it gets really heavy all throughout.

Also, do you share the same sentiment about A Nightmare To Remember, where it's a really heavy song that has a softer middle section? Do you think the song would've been better if they cut out that "Beautiful Agony" section and just kept it heavy all throughout?

My problem with Ministry of Lost Souls is that it is one of the few DT songs where I mentally "check out".  It rambles and drifts in a way that becomes sonic wallpaper instead of an active listening experience.  I usually don't listen to DT for sonic wallpaper (that is what dance and electronica are for).  When I pop in DT I want to be listening to something and much like good classical music DT always has some depth that can hold my ears. 

TMOLS....not so much.  It would have been better as two songs (The ballad and the instrumental) or just trimmed and tightened (like most of ADTOE).

[iamtheeviltwin]

However, you should be able to recognize the purpose of the samples beyond "distracting you from the music", because the samples are a part of the music.

I understand that you're technically correct, but let me ask you something: if there was a sample of a high-pitched, ear-splitting scream in the middle of Wait For Sleep, would that sample distract from the music, or would it be part of the music?

The problem with that comparison is that there isn't that bit there, Jaffa.  Your question is like asking if a dubstep breakdown in the middle of Beethoven's fifth would be distracting.  Yes, because it was not part of the original composition.

DT (and most musicians who use samples) do it as part of the sonic composition of the piece.  They exist for a reason, to set a mood (SDV), to tell part of the story (ACOS, Repentence), or to enhance the music rhythmically, harmonically, or melodically (like 6:00).

Can samples be used "poorly" of course, but so can a particular guitar tone, keyboard patch, or melodic line.  Sampling has been part of music since before the age of recordings (classical composers often borrowed themes from each other or themselves).  Ranting against samples "in general" reminds me of the old-school metalheads who insist that a metal band could never have a keyboard, a bit misguided and tone-deaf.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean that this specific musical journey is enjoyable.  I mean, if I climb to the top of a mountain, fall off the mountain, and then am teleported back to the top of the mountain, this is all a journey, but that doesn't mean it is a pleasant experience, and it certainly doesn't mean it makes sense. 

But TMOLS is very enjoyable. It's awesome. Heck, when that instrumental section kicks in, it gets me psyched. Sucks that other people don't get that.

My problem with Ministry of Lost Souls is that it is one of the few DT songs where I mentally "check out".  It rambles and drifts in a way that becomes sonic wallpaper instead of an active listening experience.  I usually don't listen to DT for sonic wallpaper (that is what dance and electronica are for).  When I pop in DT I want to be listening to something and much like good classical music DT always has some depth that can hold my ears. 

TMOLS....not so much.  It would have been better as two songs (The ballad and the instrumental) or just trimmed and tightened (like most of ADTOE).

Well, that's a different issue from saying, "It just doesn't fit, because it doesn't make sense in the context of the song." Although I don't share it, but it's more understandable. There are maybe two DT songs that make me mentally check out and they're New Millennium and The Great Debate. And maybe a couple more that I can't think of right now, but those two are the worst for me.

DT (and most musicians who use samples) do it as part of the sonic composition of the piece.  They exist for a reason, to set a mood (SDV), to tell part of the story (ACOS, Repentence), or to enhance the music rhythmically, harmonically, or melodically (like 6:00).

6:00 and ACOS I agree with. SDV, no way. Not that I disagree with WHY they put those samples in, but I disagree that they actually accomplish what they were intended to do. The melody in SDV is more than enough to set the mood. Adding distracting samples onto it is like trying to force it even more, and for me, it doesn't work at all.

Can samples be used "poorly" of course, but so can a particular guitar tone, keyboard patch, or melodic line.  Sampling has been part of music since before the age of recordings (classical composers often borrowed themes from each other or themselves).  Ranting against samples "in general" reminds me of the old-school metalheads who insist that a metal band could never have a keyboard, a bit misguided and tone-deaf.

You're picking at straws. When I rant against samples, I mean samples of voices from movies or TV shows in music. Particularly in the middle of a song when you're just getting into how awesome it is, and then someone starts saying something and it's horribly distracting.
Using someone else's musical themes in your own song is different, obviously, because what you're listening to is still music. And if it's introduced in the right way, if it's spliced in smoothly and naturally, then even a Dub Step breakdown in the middle of a classical song COULD work. Same with voice samples, as long as they're used in moderation like in A Change Of Seasons or Breaking All Illusions. But SDV, Honor Thy Father, etc. are overdoing it big time.

[Jaffa]

But TMOLS is very enjoyable. It's awesome. Heck, when that instrumental section kicks in, it gets me psyched. Sucks that other people don't get that.

Well, if you like it, hooray.  I'm not saying you're not entitled to.  Obviously whether we like it or not is a matter of opinion.  And actually, I do like the song.  I just would like it a lot more if things had been done differently.

This is how I see TMOLS: it is a nice, simple songs that gets, randomly and for no apparent reason, set on fire.  It burns for a while and is totally chaotic.  And then someone puts it out with a fire extinguisher and it tries to go back to being a simple song as if nothing has happened.  It says, "Oh, never mind the fire, never mind the fact that my flesh is burned and melted, let's go back to being soft and pretty." 

It goes from Point A, to Point B, to Point C, to Point XXZYQZZW34, to Point D, and finally finishes on Point E. 

The problem with that comparison is that there isn't that bit there, Jaffa.  Your question is like asking if a dubstep breakdown in the middle of Beethoven's fifth would be distracting.  Yes, because it was not part of the original composition.

I realize that there is a difference, but the point I am trying to illustrate is that there is more to a song than whether it 'makes sense' or works conceptually.  Yes, the samples in SDV are supposed to represent a man flipping channels, and yes, maybe this is suppose to emphasize his loneliness.  Fantastic.  Similarly, if there was a scream in WFS, it could be meant to symbolize that despite the appearances of calm and beauty presented by the song, the character is actually suffering.  The scream would be there to emphasize the inner turmoil going on as she quietly lies and 'waits for sleep.'  Conceptually, this would make sense, wouldn't it?  Yet sonically, it would shatter the mood and ambience of the song.  Therefore, I would say it would a poor use of sample.

The same applies for SDV for me.  I'm sure the samples are there for a reason, it's just that for me, those samples fail utterly in their purpose.  When I listen to SDV, I don't think, "oh, wow, this guy must be lonely, he's flipping channels."  Instead, I  think, "Dude, Conan, shut the hell up and let me listen to that piano!"  Whether or not it is intended to be there, whether or not it's meant to enhance the concept, bottom line is, for me, it just doesn't sound right.  It sounds out of place to me in the same way (although obviously not to the same extreme degree) as a scream would in Wait For Sleep.

[TheGreatPretender]

The same applies for SDV for me.  I'm sure the samples are there for a reason, it's just that for me, those samples fail utterly in their purpose.  When I listen to SDV, I don't think, "oh, wow, this guy must be lonely, he's flipping channels."  Instead, I  think, "Dude, Conan, shut the hell up and let me listen to that piano!" 

[theseoafs]

However, you should be able to recognize the purpose of the samples beyond "distracting you from the music", because the samples are a part of the music.

I understand that you're technically correct, but let me ask you something: if there was a sample of a high-pitched, ear-splitting scream in the middle of Wait For Sleep, would that sample distract from the music, or would it be part of the music?

It would be a part of the music because the band decided that it suited the music. The band decided that sound did not suit the music, and they're probably right about that.

[theseoafs]

It's also entirely out of place and makes little sense in the middle of a ballad.

Doesn't the idea that music has to conform to some kind of specific format or structure go against the whole point of what Progressive Music is about? I'm sure there are some people out there who'd say that making a 20+ minute song that has so many different sounding passages (i.e. A Change of Seasons or Octavarium) makes little sense, when you could just separate it into 5 shorter songs. It's kind of shortsighted.

Forget that it's a 'ballad'. Just listen to it as a 'piece of music' with no preconceptions as to what kind of a song it is. What you get is a soft, melodic beginning that's contrasted by a heavy and powerful middle section before going back to it's original soft theme for the ending. That's a musical journey in and of itself right there. It's exactly why I like Progressive music in the first place. The fact that within one song, you could have something so different. It has much more of an impact than a song like, let's say, Honor Thy Father where it gets really heavy all throughout.

Also, do you share the same sentiment about A Nightmare To Remember, where it's a really heavy song that has a softer middle section? Do you think the song would've been better if they cut out that "Beautiful Agony" section and just kept it heavy all throughout?

You're right. I'm not saying that the song is necessarily bad because it was supposed to be a ballad but there's something different in the middle; that would be close-minded and quite lame.

I recognize the structure, which is calm section - metal section - calm section. However, the structure just doesn't work. I don't have too much time to describe it right now, but Jaffa described it pretty well. It goes from A to B to C to XKAJLSKDFJ02395U3 to D to E. I rather enjoy parts A through E, but by the time the instrumental section is done, I'm left wondering why we even left on the excursion anyway.

The instrumental section in TMOLS embodies everything that's wrong with prog metal, rather than everything that's right with it. It's just there to make the song an epic, rather than to expound on some relevant musical or lyrical ideas. It's completely irrelevant and confounding and lame.