The "would be top 10 if not for ___" thread

[SystematicThought]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I
There ya go. I love this take actually. The producer didn't think so

[TheGreatPretender]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I
There ya go. I love this take actually. The producer didn't think so

I agree with the producer/MP. The growls are way too Black Metal for DT. I do wish they'd have kept LaBrie's part in, though.

[SystematicThought]

I only say producer in that way because it sounds like MP was the only one who hated the JLB part and the rest of the band liked it, but MP got his way in the end.

At least thats what I remember

[BlobVanDam]

Can anyone here confirm whether or not James' vocals were on the version MP posted on his forum, or was it just the grunts?

He posted both - one with just grunts, and one with grunts + JLB. JLB is singing "Time stands still, inside this hell, makes no sense, he should be dead" (or something like that, can't be bothered checking), then repeats the lyrics from the start of the verse "day after day...". I liked the full growl version with JLB the best of them. They should have just not cared about what the fans would have thought and gone with it.

[SystematicThought]

So that's what he is saying. Cool, some cut lyrics from ANTR.

[BlobVanDam]

So that's what he is saying. Cool, some cut lyrics from ANTR.

I actually once made an mp3 of just the LaBrie vocals with no growls at all. Not sure I still have it around.

[SystematicThought]

Well, I posted the video of it above, I'll check that.

EDIT: Yep, you're right. Man, those lyrics are haunting. MP should have growled those lyrics underneath JLB's singing

[TheGreatPretender]

So that's what he is saying. Cool, some cut lyrics from ANTR.

I actually once made an mp3 of just the LaBrie vocals with no growls at all. Not sure I still have it around.

Where did you get JUST the LaBrie vocals from that take?

[BlobVanDam]

So that's what he is saying. Cool, some cut lyrics from ANTR.

I actually once made an mp3 of just the LaBrie vocals with no growls at all. Not sure I still have it around.

Where did you get JUST the LaBrie vocals from that take?

I just did some editing in Adobe Audition, then mixed it in with the stems of the backing. I can't seem to find it though.

[SystematicThought]

Like I said, the lyrics that JLB is singing are absolutely haunting. MP should have growled: Time stands still/inside this hell/makes no sense/he should be dead. And than have JLB do the day after day part

[BlobVanDam]

Like I said, the lyrics that JLB is singing are absolutely haunting. MP should have growled: Time stands still/inside this hell/makes no sense/he should be dead. And than have JLB do the day after day part

I just checked, and I was wrong with those lyrics. That's just what I always heard them as. Hearing it solo, it's something like "glass ??, inside his head, makes no sense, he should be dead." I think I prefer it my way.

Assuming this link works, this is just the JLB vocal over the stems. You can still hear a tiny echo of the growls, but this is the best I could do quickly, and it gives a good idea of what it would sound like.

https://www.blobvandam.com/ANTR_JLB.mp3

[Mladen]

That's very interesting. I wish the idea of both Mike and James singing that section was executed better, it would have been great. But still, I've grown to love that part of the song as it is.

[TheGreatPretender]

I just checked, and I was wrong with those lyrics. That's just what I always heard them as. Hearing it solo, it's something like "glass ??, inside his head, makes no sense, he should be dead." I think I prefer it my way.

Assuming this link works, this is just the JLB vocal over the stems. You can still hear a tiny echo of the growls, but this is the best I could do quickly, and it gives a good idea of what it would sound like.

https://www.blobvandam.com/ANTR_JLB.mp3

Where do you hear 'glass'? I definitely heard Time stands still... Anyway, thanks for uploading that. I'll definitely splice that into my current version. 

[DebraKadabra]

I remember that part!  Only thing about it is that DT isn't Opeth...

[Madman Shepherd]

Like I said, the lyrics that JLB is singing are absolutely haunting. MP should have growled: Time stands still/inside this hell/makes no sense/he should be dead. And than have JLB do the day after day part

I just checked, and I was wrong with those lyrics. That's just what I always heard them as. Hearing it solo, it's something like "glass ??, inside his head, makes no sense, he should be dead." I think I prefer it my way.

Assuming this link works, this is just the JLB vocal over the stems. You can still hear a tiny echo of the growls, but this is the best I could do quickly, and it gives a good idea of what it would sound like.

https://www.blobvandam.com/ANTR_JLB.mp3

Awesome! 

I never really minded the MP vocals as they appeared on the album but this would have been A LOT better.  If they play it live again I hope they do it this way. 

[FlyingBIZKIT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I
There ya go. I love this take actually. The producer didn't think so

Thank God that wasn't the real deal. 

[FlyingBIZKIT]

Pull Me Under would be top 10 if they had finished the damn song.

[BlobVanDam]

Pull Me Under would be top 10 if they had finished the damn song.

You wouldn't be saying that if you heard the crap after that section. There's a damn good reason the record company just cut it off there.

[theseoafs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I
There ya go. I love this take actually. The producer didn't think so

Thank God that wasn't the real deal. 

Agreed. Sounds even sillier than what's on the record.

[Dreamer81]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTn4U-0kT4I
There ya go. I love this take actually. The producer didn't think so

Thank God that wasn't the real deal. 

the growl is horrendous....

[bosk1]

Day after day, and night after night
You guys take a good thread, make it an MP fight
Over and over, posts get mean
Like a recurring board war, makes me want to scream

How could you prepare for what would happen next?
Bosk will lock the thread if he thinks it's for the best
I don't get why some
Seem to love just kicking sand
By the grace of bosk-1, nobody was banned.
RRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

[Zydar]

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

[bosk1]

You applaud now, but just wait until next time you listen to ANTR and you have those lyrics stuck in your head.  Can't unhear 'em now, can ya'?

[Cool Chris]

Can anyone here confirm whether or not James' vocals were on the version MP posted on his forum, or was it just the grunts?

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?high=&m=2352022&mpage=1#2352022

As for The Great Debate, yes those samples fit, but the problem I have with it is that the intro is so damn long it drags on. By the time the samples are half done, I'm sick of it and want to skip the song. Which is what I end up doing half the time.

I think they're just the cases where the "message" or the "artistic vision" messes up the most important part of it all: The Music.

My feelings about TGD exactly. Damn does that intro take forever.  And that is what I've always thought about SDV without being able to articulate it so succinctly.

[KevShmev]

As for The Great Debate, yes those samples fit, but the problem I have with it is that the intro is so damn long it drags on. By the time the samples are half done, I'm sick of it and want to skip the song. Which is what I end up doing half the time.

I think they're just the cases where the "message" or the "artistic vision" messes up the most important part of it all: The Music.

Fortunately, Dream Theater is a band where their artistic vision is what matters the most (which is why they don't have an outside producer to mess with it).  All of us don't always like that vision, me included, but it is what it is.  I'd rather have a band that places the utmost important on artistic vision rather than one that doesn't.

[Scorpion]

Day after day, and night after night
You guys take a good thread, make it an MP fight
Over and over, posts get mean
Like a recurring board war, makes me want to scream

How could you prepare for what would happen next?
Bosk will lock the thread if he thinks it's for the best
I don't get why some
Seem to love just kicking sand
By the grace of bosk-1, nobody was banned.
RRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

This definitely made my day. I'd sig it if I could.

[TheGreatPretender]

Fortunately, Dream Theater is a band where their artistic vision is what matters the most (which is why they don't have an outside producer to mess with it).  All of us don't always like that vision, me included, but it is what it is.  I'd rather have a band that places the utmost important on artistic vision rather than one that doesn't.

Well, considering they play some of the greatest music in history of music period (in my humble opinion), I'd rather hear the actual music than scenes from movies and shows. If I wanted to hear that, I'd watch the actual movies.
I mean, frankly, if I listen to Honor Thy Father, I get the message. I understand what it's about, and from the music alone, I can understand the kind of anger it's supposed to convey. I don't need a bunch of sample of John Voight.

[darkshade]

But guys, what's a DT album without at least one track that has samples from movies or TV or some other source of people talking during dramatic moments of a song? Every album has them.

[theseoafs]

@TGP: Okay, except recorded music is more than just a few guys playing some notes and putting them on a disc. Recorded music is also about atmosphere and mood, and it's about having a blank canvas whose sonic properties can be tweaked to absolute perfection, unlike on the live stage.

I think you're looking at the issue in an odd way. You're looking at the samples as attacking the music. You think track 4 of Train of Thought is Honor Thy Father Plus Samples, when Honor Thy Father is actually just a song that happens to utilize some samples to an artistic end. So the next time you hear that song, I encourage you to listen to it more positively, all the while keeping in mind that "this is how Dream Theater wanted this song to sound".

[FlyingBIZKIT]

@TGP: Okay, except recorded music is more than just a few guys playing some notes and putting them on a disc. Recorded music is also about atmosphere and mood, and it's about having a blank canvas whose sonic properties can be tweaked to absolute perfection, unlike on the live stage.

I think you're looking at the issue in an odd way. You're looking at the samples as attacking the music. You think track 4 of Train of Thought is Honor Thy Father Plus Samples, when Honor Thy Father is actually just a song that happens to utilize some samples to an artistic end. So the next time you hear that song, I encourage you to listen to it more positively, all the while keeping in mind that "this is how Dream Theater wanted this song to sound".

Well said 

[TheGreatPretender]

@TGP: Okay, except recorded music is more than just a few guys playing some notes and putting them on a disc. Recorded music is also about atmosphere and mood, and it's about having a blank canvas whose sonic properties can be tweaked to absolute perfection, unlike on the live stage.

I think you're looking at the issue in an odd way. You're looking at the samples as attacking the music. You think track 4 of Train of Thought is Honor Thy Father Plus Samples, when Honor Thy Father is actually just a song that happens to utilize some samples to an artistic end. So the next time you hear that song, I encourage you to listen to it more positively, all the while keeping in mind that "this is how Dream Theater wanted this song to sound".

Well, in Honor Thy Father's defense, those samples at least happen over what's basically an instrumental loop. There are some variations, but they're very minor. But in the case of Space-Dye Vest, there are some beautiful Piano passages, and the samples completely distract from them.
And the other thing is, you might say "that's how DT wanted the song to sound" but DT writes music before they write lyrics from what I've seen. So obviously the sample ideas come in once the lyrics are done. Which means that originally, I really doubt they write the music and say, "And here we'll put some samples."
Also, even if 'that's how DT wanted it to sound'... I've heard people talk about certain things that ruined good DT songs. Like, all those people complaining about the instrumental section of TMOLS (which I love). But to some people, that section ruins the song. Well for me, the samples ruin the songs. You can tell me to listen to it more positively and keeping in mind that that's how it was intended to sound, but I could say the same thing about TMOLS, and I very much doubt it's going to make those people like the song any more.

[snapple]

Day after day, and night after night
You guys take a good thread, make it an MP fight
Over and over, posts get mean
Like a recurring board war, makes me want to scream

How could you prepare for what would happen next?
Bosk will lock the thread if he thinks it's for the best
I don't get why some
Seem to love just kicking sand
By the grace of bosk-1, nobody was banned.
RRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

[theseoafs]

And the other thing is, you might say "that's how DT wanted the song to sound" but DT writes music before they write lyrics from what I've seen. So obviously the sample ideas come in once the lyrics are done. Which means that originally, I really doubt they write the music and say, "And here we'll put some samples."

Okay, but once the music and lyrics are finished, the band decided that that particular section would be complemented by film samples. So yes, the music is still meant to be heard that way.

Also, even if 'that's how DT wanted it to sound'... I've heard people talk about certain things that ruined good DT songs. Like, all those people complaining about the instrumental section of TMOLS (which I love). But to some people, that section ruins the song. Well for me, the samples ruin the songs. You can tell me to listen to it more positively and keeping in mind that that's how it was intended to sound, but I could say the same thing about TMOLS, and I very much doubt it's going to make those people like the song any more.

Right. I'm not saying that you have to like the use of samples, because you don't have to like anything that DT does. However, you should be able to recognize the purpose of the samples beyond "distracting you from the music", because the samples are a part of the music.

[TheGreatPretender]

Right. I'm not saying that you have to like the use of samples, because you don't have to like anything that DT does. However, you should be able to recognize the purpose of the samples beyond "distracting you from the music", because the samples are a part of the music.

In general, yes, I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. But honestly, in Space-Dye Vest, it really does feel like it's just there to distract from the music. I mean say what you will about the purpose of that Conan O Brien clip, but it's the most out of place sample I've ever heard in any song. If I didn't know better, I'd say they included it to spite Kevin Moore for leaving the band.