Still a HUGE DT fan but...............

[Tick]

Yeah, JLB is not the most dynamic front man, and obviously he can't front things during the instrumental breaks.  The natural thing would have been for JM or JP to step up, but that doesn't seem to be in either of their personalities, really.  MP had the personality, but there's only so much you can do from behind a drum kit.

Your not going to be a different person because a member is gone, just to compensate. Its just not going to happen. What can happen is a renewed energy and all around happiness that is visible to see. That is what the difference is without Mike.
If Mike had come back after the whole debacle, neither Mike or the rest of the band would have had a good tour in my opinion. I think knowing the DT fan knows everything that transpired if would have been awkward.
Maybe a few years from now they would be able to reunite and they all might enjoy it, but that is a ways a way, if at all.

[johncal]

I don't know why some of you guys keep dreaming Portnoy will come back. He's not as good a drummer and the Guys like Mangini much better, as do around 80+%of the fans. It ain't a gonna happen. The Bridges in the Sky have been burnt. Deal with it.

[Tick]

I don't know why some of you guys keep dreaming Portnoy will come back. He's not as good a drummer

If that was the only issue then who gives a shit? Its about the band you were endeared to. However its not about talent, its about a relationship that ran its course. Period.
Does anyone really think all of a sudden that Mike Portnoy is a drummer that is lacking capability? It aint about talent, cause Mike Portnoy is plenty talented...so lets not make it like it isn't talented enough anymore, cause that's just stupid.

[johncal]

I don't know why some of you guys keep dreaming Portnoy will come back. He's not as good a drummer

If that was the only issue then who gives a shit? Its about the band you were endeared to. However its not about talent, its about a relationship that ran its course. Period.
Does anyone really think all of a sudden that Mike Portnoy is a drummer that is lacking capability? It aint about talent, cause Mike Portnoy is plenty talented...so lets not make it like it isn't talented enough anymore, cause that's just stupid.

Some day they'll surely fire Mangini and bring back Portnoy because of his wonderful personality....... It's obvious Mangini's a better fit. HIS personality actually blends with the band much better, they're expanding their musical horizons and experimenting in areas now that they couldn't with Portnoy. No one ever said Portnoy lacks capability, but it's obvious he doesn't have as much talent as Mangini and he's a tool. They would be stupid to ever bring him back. THAT would be the stupidity. But keep wishing.

[Tick]

I don't know why some of you guys keep dreaming Portnoy will come back. He's not as good a drummer

If that was the only issue then who gives a shit? Its about the band you were endeared to. However its not about talent, its about a relationship that ran its course. Period.
Does anyone really think all of a sudden that Mike Portnoy is a drummer that is lacking capability? It aint about talent, cause Mike Portnoy is plenty talented...so lets not make it like it isn't talented enough anymore, cause that's just stupid.

Some day they'll surely fire Mangini and bring back Portnoy because of his wonderful personality....... It's obvious Mangini's a better fit. HIS personality actually blends with the band much better, they're expanding their musical horizons and experimenting in areas now that they couldn't with Portnoy. No one ever said Portnoy lacks capability, but it's obvious he doesn't have as much talent as Mangini and he's a tool. They would be stupid to ever bring him back. THAT would be the stupidity. But keep wishing.

You are the one who painted the picture that Mangini is better therefore Portnoy won't be back. I just said, that isn't the reason. I am not wishing for anything. I accept what is.
As far as Mangini being a better fit, he has been with the band less than a year. Mike played with these guys 20+ years. Things happen, things change. Mike is a good person, he just gets a bit over the top at times. Thank you for the use of similes to make your point in a far better way.

[As I Am]

 
I am BLOWN AWAY by the absolute lack of respect that MP receives here after all he did for the band AND US FANS for over 20 years! Also, these jokers who are insinuating that MP is not a good drummer

I just don't get the hate!

[iamtheeviltwin]

I am BLOWN AWAY by the absolute lack of respect that MP receives here after all he did for the band AND US FANS for over 20 years! Also, these jokers who are insinuating that MP is not a good drummer

I just don't get the hate!

I don't know about anyone else, but it feels like a pretty natural reaction to someone who showed a great lack of respect for the fans after the split.  MP made it very clear at some point after the split that he expected fans to back him and turn against the band.  Many posters here, like me, are DT fans first and when basically told by MP to make a choice between him and the band, chose the band.  It's really not that hard to understand.  When forced to choose between different factions people tend to back the faction they are the most loyal to.  Color me surprised that on a Dream Theater fan board the majority of posters are loyal to Dream Theater as opposed to an individual member.

As for the "not a good drummer" most people are saying that MM is a better drummer than MP.  Note that does not diminish MP's ability, just ranks it against someone who is considered a better drummer by many people.  MP himself acknowledged that he didn't put as much effort (re practice) into his drumming in the later years and it showed if you compared his drumming on Awake or I&W with SC or BC&SL.

[Tick]

Its not about choosing. Mike is an emotional guy. So what? I still love the guy. There are always two sides to any story, and none of us know what the true reality is.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know why some of you guys keep dreaming Portnoy will come back. He's not as good a drummer

If that was the only issue then who gives a shit? Its about the band you were endeared to. However its not about talent, its about a relationship that ran its course. Period.
Does anyone really think all of a sudden that Mike Portnoy is a drummer that is lacking capability? It aint about talent, cause Mike Portnoy is plenty talented...so lets not make it like it isn't talented enough anymore, cause that's just stupid.

Some day they'll surely fire Mangini and bring back Portnoy because of his wonderful personality....... It's obvious Mangini's a better fit. HIS personality actually blends with the band much better, they're expanding their musical horizons and experimenting in areas now that they couldn't with Portnoy. No one ever said Portnoy lacks capability, but it's obvious he doesn't have as much talent as Mangini and he's a tool. They would be stupid to ever bring him back. THAT would be the stupidity. But keep wishing.

Bashing former member MP is stupidity.  That's a warning.

[Miyazaki74]

I don't know why some of you guys keep dreaming Portnoy will come back. He's not as good a drummer

If that was the only issue then who gives a shit? Its about the band you were endeared to. However its not about talent, its about a relationship that ran its course. Period.
Does anyone really think all of a sudden that Mike Portnoy is a drummer that is lacking capability? It aint about talent, cause Mike Portnoy is plenty talented...so lets not make it like it isn't talented enough anymore, cause that's just stupid.

Some day they'll surely fire Mangini and bring back Portnoy because of his wonderful personality....... It's obvious Mangini's a better fit. HIS personality actually blends with the band much better, they're expanding their musical horizons and experimenting in areas now that they couldn't with Portnoy. No one ever said Portnoy lacks capability, but it's obvious he doesn't have as much talent as Mangini and he's a tool. They would be stupid to ever bring him back. THAT would be the stupidity. But keep wishing.

How is making a current album that rips off from one of your past classic albums expanding musical horizons?

[KevShmev]

I am BLOWN AWAY by the absolute lack of respect that MP receives here after all he did for the band AND US FANS for over 20 years!  

Have you also been blown away by the lack of respect Portnoy has shown towards the band and their fans since leaving the band?

How is making a current album that rips off from one of your past classic albums expanding musical horizons?

Hey, everyone, we have a comedian here!

[ReaPsTA]

I am BLOWN AWAY by the absolute lack of respect that MP receives here after all he did for the band AND US FANS for over 20

Maybe this feeling wouldn't be so common if MP had done anything to show respect to DT and their fans after he left the band.

[Jamariquay]

How is making a current album that rips off from one of your past classic albums expanding musical horizons?

You sort of answered your own question. ADTOE has all sorts of homages (or, if you're less keen to it, "rip offs") to one of their "classic" albums. Meaning they were returning to something that they clearly did right before, only with the added benefit of 20+ years of making music to inform the writing process. It's sort of "if we were to do this today, using this framework, how would we do it? What would we put into that framework?" Which is really an interesting question, because they're very much NOT the same band they were 20 years ago (for better or worse). I'd say that either way, it'd be a challenge, and would definitely end up expanding all sorts of horizons during the process.

And yes, I realize your question was rhetorical, but I just thought I'd take a stab at it anyway. Personally, I'd rather them not stick quite so closely to the I&W framework myself, but then, I don't really mind it either.

[Tick]

I am BLOWN AWAY by the absolute lack of respect that MP receives here after all he did for the band AND US FANS for over 20

Maybe this feeling wouldn't be so common if MP had done anything to show respect to DT and their fans after he left the band.

Other than the fact he was emotional and saying a lot of stuff without really thinking first(which we are probably all guilty of at times) how did he not show respect to the fans?

[CodyWanKenobi]

I am starting to get very annoyed with people complaining about the ' lack of spontaneity' and the reoccurring setlists.

Mangini joined the band..
Then recorded drums for the album
Then had a few months to learn a handful of songs for the upcoming tour (depending on when he was even given the setlist for the upcoming tour)
Then he went on the road
Came back for a few weeks, learned a few more songs for the setlist change for the NA tour
Went on the road for about four months
Had some time off to spend time with his family for christmas and still found time to learn a few more songs for the European tour
Flew to Europe
and has been there on tour 24/7
And some of you are complaining because he didn't find nonexistent time to learn MORE songs? Give me a break dude. MM is doing a fantastic job, and I'm sure things will change in the years to come.


ON TOPIC POST

I agree with the OP's post, but only with the examples he mention. Although, I think it's fun as hell to watch Mangini do some unbelievable shit, and have more fun than I've seen MP ever have onstage. I do miss seeing the interaction with the crowed from the drumkit though. But who knows, Mangini might start doing that once he becomes more comfortable.

[Miyazaki74]

I just want to make it clear that I love DT. DT, Foo Fighters, Metallica and Rush are my favorite bands of all time. I really like ADTOE and I thought it was their best album since SDOIT. I just get tired of all the critisism MP gets in here sometimes. I know he's had controversial things to say about DT and all, but I appreciate his blunt honesty. As a DT fan I never felt insulted by anything he has said about DT cause as far as I was concerned it had nothing to do with me.

[KevShmev]

I just want to make it clear that I love DT. DT, Foo Fighters, Metallica and Rush are my favorite bands of all time. I really like ADTOE and I thought it was their best album since SDOIT. I just get tired of all the critisism MP gets in here sometimes. I know he's had controversial things to say about DT and all, but I appreciate his blunt honesty. As a DT fan I never felt insulted by anything he has said about DT cause as far as I was concerned it had nothing to do with me.

It's not brutal honesty; it's him "telling it like it is" based on his distorted view of the truth.  And "telling it like it is" is overrated anyway.  If I walk up to a 300-lb. person on the street and call them fat, can I excuse it by saying, "Sorry, I am just telling it like it is"?  Of course not.  Sometimes, it is better to keep your mouth (or mouse or cell phone ) shut.  Being PC for the sake of peace and having no drama is often a good thing.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't know why some of you guys keep dreaming Portnoy will come back. He's not as good a drummer

If that was the only issue then who gives a shit? Its about the band you were endeared to. However its not about talent, its about a relationship that ran its course. Period.
Does anyone really think all of a sudden that Mike Portnoy is a drummer that is lacking capability? It aint about talent, cause Mike Portnoy is plenty talented...so lets not make it like it isn't talented enough anymore, cause that's just stupid.

Some day they'll surely fire Mangini and bring back Portnoy because of his wonderful personality....... It's obvious Mangini's a better fit. HIS personality actually blends with the band much better, they're expanding their musical horizons and experimenting in areas now that they couldn't with Portnoy. No one ever said Portnoy lacks capability, but it's obvious he doesn't have as much talent as Mangini and he's a tool. They would be stupid to ever bring him back. THAT would be the stupidity. But keep wishing.

Except that ADTOE is DT's most safe album in..... ever, and doesn't have any experimenting or expanding of horizons. And MM wouldn't have been responsible for that anyway, since he had no part in writing the album, and his parts were recorded after everyone else IIRC. ADTOE is DT playing it safe, and I think that shows.
I really hope MM has more involvement in the next album to freshen it up.

[theseoafs]

What experimenting or expanding of horizons does BCSL or SC have that ADTOE doesn't? I agree that ADTOE isn't exactly revolutionary, but BCSL and SC are extremely formulaic, and ADTOE, if nothing else, broke what was becoming a pattern for DT (big opener, a couple heavy radio-friendly tunes, a ballad, a longer, proggier ballad to serve as the penultimate song, and an overly long epic to finish).

[BlobVanDam]

What experimenting or expanding of horizons does BCSL or SC have that ADTOE doesn't? I agree that ADTOE isn't exactly revolutionary, but BCSL and SC are extremely formulaic, and ADTOE, if nothing else, broke what was becoming a pattern for DT (big opener, a couple heavy radio-friendly tunes, a ballad, a longer, proggier ballad to serve as the penultimate song, and an overly long epic to finish).

That's a huge oversimplification that doesn't factor in the actual music itself. They did establish a pattern of ending with the big song, but those big songs were entirely different musically. Same goes for the other things you've mentioned.

SC had fantasy lyrics, harsh vocal delivery, the rhythmic and atonal experimentation of TDEN, and the general vibe of songs like ITPOE. There is plenty of exploration on that album. I can't imagine any of those songs fitting on any prior album at all.
Given that BCASL is DT's 10th album, I feel that it's probably one of their safer ones, although some of the songs sound identifiably different to anything else they've done in terms of sound, and relatively speaking it explores more new ground than ADTOE.
Musically speaking, I don't hear anything new on ADTOE. They did some things they hadn't done in a while, like the stripped back songs without drums, the more upbeat ballady stuff, but there's nothing they haven't done before at some point.

[theseoafs]

What experimenting or expanding of horizons does BCSL or SC have that ADTOE doesn't? I agree that ADTOE isn't exactly revolutionary, but BCSL and SC are extremely formulaic, and ADTOE, if nothing else, broke what was becoming a pattern for DT (big opener, a couple heavy radio-friendly tunes, a ballad, a longer, proggier ballad to serve as the penultimate song, and an overly long epic to finish).

Given that BCASL is DT's 10th album, I feel that it's probably one of their safer ones, although some of the songs sound identifiably different to anything else they've done in terms of sound, and relatively speaking it explores more new ground than ADTOE.

And what are these songs that sound different than anything they've done?

Maybe you're right about SC, though. I was wrong to lump it in with BCSL. It's probably just because I rarely listen to it. 

The fact of the matter is that DT isn't really an experimental band. They've got their thing and they've stuck to it for eleven albums, and I don't think they're ever going to do a complete 180 like Opeth did with Heritage.

[BlobVanDam]

What experimenting or expanding of horizons does BCSL or SC have that ADTOE doesn't? I agree that ADTOE isn't exactly revolutionary, but BCSL and SC are extremely formulaic, and ADTOE, if nothing else, broke what was becoming a pattern for DT (big opener, a couple heavy radio-friendly tunes, a ballad, a longer, proggier ballad to serve as the penultimate song, and an overly long epic to finish).

Given that BCASL is DT's 10th album, I feel that it's probably one of their safer ones, although some of the songs sound identifiably different to anything else they've done in terms of sound, and relatively speaking it explores more new ground than ADTOE.

And what are these songs that sound different than anything they've done?

Maybe you're right about SC, though. I was wrong to lump it in with BCSL. It's probably just because I rarely listen to it. 

The fact of the matter is that DT isn't really an experimental band. They've got their thing and they've stuck to it for eleven albums, and I don't think they're ever going to do a complete 180 like Opeth did with Heritage.

I agree. And I certainly wasn't trying to argue that BCASL was ground breaking stuff. In terms of structure I agree that ADTOE is less formulaic that the last few albums, but I think people often neglect to look past that and see a lot of the new things they did within that structure. That goes more for SC than BCASL of course, but ADTOE felt a lot more familiar to me on first listen than SC and BCASL ever did.

[KevShmev]

Fantasy lyrics aren't experimentation.  Neither is the vibe of ITPOE.  And the rhythmic stuff in TDEN is not stuff that they haven't done before.  I think you are straining to find stuff to call experimentation on SC, quite honestly, BVD.

I mean, if we are call the atonal stuff in TDEN experimenting, then we can the say the same about the crazy instrumental section in Outcry, which many have admitted is some of the craziest stuff they have ever done rhythmically.

And the chants at the beginning of Bridges in the Sky.  They have never done that before!  That could also be called experimenting.

And beginning a song with a dominant fake drum beat, ala BMU, BMD.

And having a bluesy solo over a bluesy rhythm, ala the guitar solo section in Breaking All Illusions.

See what I mean? 

[BlobVanDam]

Fantasy lyrics aren't experimentation.  Neither is the vibe of ITPOE.  And the rhythmic stuff in TDEN is not stuff that they haven't done before.  I think you are straining to find stuff to call experimentation on SC, quite honestly, BVD.

I mean, if we are call the atonal stuff in TDEN experimenting, then we can the say the same about the crazy instrumental section in Outcry, which many have admitted is some of the craziest stuff they have ever done rhythmically.

And the chants at the beginning of Bridges in the Sky.  They have never done that before!  That could also be called experimenting.

And beginning a song with a dominant fake drum beat, ala BMU, BMD.

And having a bluesy solo over a bluesy rhythm, ala the guitar solo section in Breaking All Illusions.

See what I mean?

No, I don't. I actually honestly think it takes some serious straining to ignore just how different SC sounds to anything they've done before. ADTOE just doesn't sound all that new. Just so we don't devolve into trivial semantics again, to be more accurate I'm talking about DT breaking new ground for themselves (which is what I consider experimenting, but obviously you're using your own definition here). Writing fantasy lyrics is most definitely trying something new. So is the musical style of TDEN, and trying out different vocal deliveries. There's really no reasonable way to deny how different the album was.
Choosing a different sample for an intro such as BITS doesn't go beyond the basic process of just writing a new song. Nor does placing a drum machine at the start of the song, as opposed to using it anywhere else in the song as they've done in the past (ITNOG, THE). And how is the solo of BAI new? It's the solo section of LITS. The instrumental stuff in Outcry is similar to TDOE. There is no way that ADTOE is breaking more ground for DT than SC did.

[KevShmev]

SC does not sound that different from their other stuff, aside from the noticeably weaker songwriting, although to be fair, they started that trend on Octavarium.

Is having a moog solo in the middle of a ballad (Beneath the Surface) something DT had done before?

Dismissing my other examples in regards to ADTOE and then acting like SC broke all new ground for them is rather absurd when you stand back and look at everything the band has done and in order. 

They kicked the harsh vocals up a notch with the TDEN verses, but they had done harsh vocals before (The Glass Prison among others).  TDEN might have kicked it up a notch, but they had done it before.

Is borrowing fantasy lyrics from an outside source really experimenting?

I agree that ADTOE was a rather safe album, generally speaking, but they still threw a few new twists and turns at us, which they almost always do, within the context of their slightly narrow window of course.

[BlobVanDam]

I dismissed your examples for ADTOE since they were intentionally examples of them not breaking new ground.
You're talking about some surface meaningless details like "they're never written a 6:33 long song before. That's just as new as a whole new lyrical genre!". The argument doesn't hold up at all.

TGP used slightly gruff backup vocals. They're not even that harsh. They're basically spoken. TDEN used co-lead vocals of JLB distorted and MP harsh vocals. Very different.

SC sounds completely different to anything prior. Criticising SC does not make a valid rebuttal to that.

ADTOE is easily DT's safest album ever. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but that's how it is.

[KevShmev]

Completely different?  Come on, that is just ridiculous.  Even if I agreed that SC was very experimental, it still doesn't sound "completely different" from anything else DT had done.  Radiohead going from OK Computer to Kid A was doing something completely different; DT going from Octavarium to Systematic Chaos was not.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm not talking about Radiohead here, and that's probably where you differ, because I'm only talking within the confines of how far DT has ever ventured. I'm not talking about writing a synth pop album, then writing a folk death metal album for the next one. I mean, we're talking DT standards here, not Radiohead obviously!

But as far as DT is concerned, Octavarium > SC is a fairly big leap. Not their biggest leap by any means considering the IaW>Awake>FII progression, but still a pretty big leap considering what point of their career they're at.
ADTOE feels a lot more like retreading old ground to me, and it seems most people agree it's returning to older territory rather than exploring new ground. And again, I'm not even saying that's even a bad thing, but I think most people here agree with it.

[DreamTension]

In my opinion the things DT did differently on ADTOE are:

Writing all of the material without a drummer
James recording in Canada away from the band
Jordans orchestration throughout the album

To me, these 3 things have the biggest influence on the sound of the new cd

[Orion1967]

After all that drama went down, I sat down to think and came to the conclusion that MP's leadership was cornering DT into something that I may not have liked very much. His vocals become more and more prominent, the production itself of the albums, the entire relationship things with the band and I really grew tired of reading his interviews (The things *I* did for this band...Things *I* forsee...) And yeah, I have no doubt whatsoever that he did lots of wonderful things for the band, but once he crossed the threshold things became stale and dry in Dream Theater. Mike Mangini joining the band was one of the best things that could have happened to this band. Not only the music from A Dramatic Turn of Events sounds inspired and eagerful, it seems as if the whole Dream Theater project gained a new meaning.

This... 100%

And for the OP.  YOu may want to try the MP.com forum for a little more sympathy to your cause...   
I also have to wonder if you have actually SEEN them on tour in person for ADToE or are you basing your opinions on YouTubage? 

[Montsegur97]

I get that people say ADTOE was playing it safe, and it's nothing revolutionary, etc, etc, but really, what do people want?  I'm sure JP could come out with some more complex out of the box stuff, but would we all want to hear it?  At some point, this music needs to sound good to the band, they can't just write ridiculous stuff for the sake of being ridiculous.  I really don't know what "new and different" things people want from them.

As for the whole MP vs MM thing, I'll have to wait for another album to make a decision.  ADTOE was ok, but I never listen to it and actually go back to more of the heavier stuff.  This though, is 100% personal preference, so really, we can argue all day, but that's music for ya, and what's great about it!

[Bruins]

You guys should really rename this forum I Hate Mike Portnoy.org and call it a day. I agree with the poster that cant believe the lack of respect after all he has done is mind boggling. The dude ate, slept and breathed DT for 25+years and now MM is the savior of the band? Come on!!! I wish I had rose colored glasses like you guys that the new CD and the live show with the new line up is so great but I don't see it or hear it. 

[KevShmev]

You guys should really rename this forum I Hate Mike Portnoy.org and call it a day. I agree with the poster that cant believe the lack of respect after all he has done is mind boggling. The dude ate, slept and breathed DT for 25+years and now MM is the savior of the band? Come on!!! I wish I had rose colored glasses like you guys that the new CD and the live show with the new line up is so great but I don't see it or hear it.

You really can't grasp the idea that Portnoy controlling the group with an iron fist is why the band's personal relationships, by Portnoy's own admission, weren't the same in his final months as a member of the band?  Bands where members are equal or near-equal always function better in the long run.  Don't believe me?  Look it up.  It is no surprise that Portnoy is such a big fan of Roger Waters, who bludgeoned his band into near ruins with his controlling ways (although Waters' controlling ways were FAR MORE destructive than Portnoy's were).

Sure, he ate, slept and breathed Dream Theater, but just because Portnoy publicly patted himself on the back non-stop for every little thing he did for the band doesn't mean that the other guys just stood back and let him do everything while they did nothing. 

This idea that some have that Portnoy was more responsibly for DT's success and greatness than anyone else is ludicrous.  And that is not taking anything away from him; his role as the band leader, drummer and music arranger was integral. 

But the last year has shown that Portnoy, by and large, was replaceable.  John Petrucci, on the other hand, is not.

[lyfeternl]

You guys should really rename this forum I Hate Mike Portnoy.org and call it a day. I agree with the poster that cant believe the lack of respect after all he has done is mind boggling. The dude ate, slept and breathed DT for 25+years and now MM is the savior of the band? Come on!!! I wish I had rose colored glasses like you guys that the new CD and the live show with the new line up is so great but I don't see it or hear it.

Can you have spaces in a hyperlink...?



I have no problem giving credit where credit is due. MP had a great run...but things within the DT camp started taking a turn for the worse, which then became evident in other ways musically, etc. But now, the season of MP is over and now we have MM. I would describe MM as a "savior" only in that I am glad the band was able to find such a high caliber drummer who has a great and genuine personality...as well as humility. I thank MP for how much he contributed in his history with DT...but do I miss him...? Well, it's hard to honestly. I like the energy DT has right now, I like the band's response to this entire ordeal with ADTOE, I like what I am seeing live, and I like what there is to come. If all of that translates to "I hate MP" well... I guess I'm joining the newly-named forum.

[El Barto]

But the last year has shown that Portnoy, by and large, was replaceable.  John Petrucci, on the other hand, is not.

I'm not sure about that.  Not that JP is irreplaceable, but that MP was.  They found a better drummer than MP, but that doesn't mean that they successfully replaced him; they didn't.  I'm sure they could find a guitarist that's fundamentally better than JP, but the quality of the band would take a significant hit, just like it has now.  Quite frankly, this isn't as good a band as it was 2 years ago.  The new album was stronger as a whole than their last four, but I don't think any of it is as good as their best work over that same span.  As a live act, I'd down grade them considerably.  I won't call them boring, but there's not really anything exciting about them, either. 

You're my age.  Ever see Boston?  Same deal.