Still a HUGE DT fan but...............

[Jarlaxle]

But very few fans are priviledged enough to see them multiple times on a tour to warrant having rotating set lists. Yeah, of course it's cool to see that they played my favorite song 3 shows back, but then get to my show and they play my least favorite song in replacement of my favorite really sucks. I don't think the band is overly concerned with constantly mixing up setlists to cater to the few fans that want to see as many different songs as possible over the 3-4 concerts they see them at because they are popular enough to get people to fill in for people that stop going to multiple shows to see different songs. It gives the band the opportunity to get into a groove with each and every song that provides a much better experience IMO.

[deadtotheworld]

I still dont understand what people mean when they say DT have more energy on stage nowadays...
I saw them play in Manchester the other week. JM is still emotionless, JR used the keytar for about 30 seconds to come down and jam with the others, JLB still walks off behind JPs rig for a lot of the show, JP didnt leave his area of the stage as he usually atleast comes over and plays a solo or two in front of the crowd on the other side of the stage and MM just smiled a lot... There wasnt much band interaction at all.
I really felt something was missing as MP used to add a bit more personality on stage with a bit of fun and a bit more rock n roll attitude that i used to enjoy alot at DT shows, plus, set lists cant please everyone I understand that, but with MP they always had a really dynamic setlist that would kind of cater for everyone, but on this tour the set seemed boring and just when I would have liked them to kick it up a notch they slowed it down even further... Dont get me wrong I love wait for sleep but at that point in the show it seemed a real momentum killer and I never experienced that when MP was doing the setlists. I believe DT to be the most exciting band on the planet and if nothing else, rotating setlists kept the band on their toes and added a sense of urgency and excitement to the show, i just really didnt get that this time around and could definitely not hack that basic setlist 2 nights in a row.

[ibosmiley]

What I mean by more energy... when I saw them this tour... they were all smiling throughout the show.  They were communicating with each other during the show.  James was all over the place and talked the crowd many times through the show.  Jordan was getting into it jamming out back there at the keys.  There was interaction between him and Mangini often through the show.  Petrucci engaged the crowd a few times and he did come up and do solos at the front of stage.  He and Myung played off each other a bit and you had the Jordan-Petrucci keytar-guitar off at one point too.  There was just more energy and they were having fun up there.  The atmosphere on the stage reminded me of back when Derek and Mike would throw drumsticks back and forth during a song... just a fun atmosphere. 

[El Barto]

Given the choice between a solid performance and a constantly changing set list, I'll take the solid performance.  The constantly changing set lists were very cool and I enjoyed following the set lists online and seeing the surprises on various nights and all.  At the same time though, I only ever see them once on each leg, and it does suck when the song you want to see gets skipped over at your city.  For those reasons, I'm cool with a standard set list.

I never thought the shows with rotating setlists were any less solid.  People act like they were up there clamming left and right.  I also don't buy the notion that you're missing out if they played your favorite song two nights ago but not when you saw them.  Either you get a song you want or you don't.  This isn't any different, except that you'll know ahead of time.  Personally,  I found the mystery quite rewarding. 

Another thing to consider is that the rotating setlists weren't just for people who traveled to shows.  Part of the rationale was to insure that cities got songs that hadn't been played there before, and also not get songs that were repetitive.   This was really cool. 

I'm actually curious what some of the others who're likely to see them in multiple cities think.  I've already said that I wouldn't bother to see them more than once anymore.  I know there are a few others here who would try to catch them in a handful of cities.  Curious if they'd still do that knowing that every show would be identical to the others.

[MarkFitDT]

I still dont understand what people mean when they say DT have more energy on stage nowadays...
I saw them play in Manchester the other week. JM is still emotionless, JR used the keytar for about 30 seconds to come down and jam with the others, JLB still walks off behind JPs rig for a lot of the show, JP didnt leave his area of the stage as he usually atleast comes over and plays a solo or two in front of the crowd on the other side of the stage and MM just smiled a lot... There wasnt much band interaction at all.
I really felt something was missing as MP used to add a bit more personality on stage with a bit of fun and a bit more rock n roll attitude that i used to enjoy alot at DT shows, plus, set lists cant please everyone I understand that, but with MP they always had a really dynamic setlist that would kind of cater for everyone, but on this tour the set seemed boring and just when I would have liked them to kick it up a notch they slowed it down even further... Dont get me wrong I love wait for sleep but at that point in the show it seemed a real momentum killer and I never experienced that when MP was doing the setlists. I believe DT to be the most exciting band on the planet and if nothing else, rotating setlists kept the band on their toes and added a sense of urgency and excitement to the show, i just really didnt get that this time around and could definitely not hack that basic setlist 2 nights in a row.

wait, in the Manchester Concert thread you said that Jordan should get rid of the keytar and continuum yet now you are saying he only used the keytar for 30 seconds to jam with the others. It certainly wasnt 30 seconds, it was more than that but are you now saying he should have played it longer to get more interaction yet in the other thread you wanted him to get rid of it??!!

Different eyes see different things but a lot of people have noticed the "vibe" is a lot better. In fact I think i mentioned in the concert thread my mate who i went with (and has only got into DT in the last year) commented, when walking out at the end, how much fun they seemed to have together and how they all looked they got on with each other and he certainly has no pro or anti stance against either Portnoy or Mangini.

[deadtotheworld]

You are correct in saying that i wish Jordan would get rid of the keytar and continuum... What im saying about the keytar is the fact that it seemed like he only used it for a very very short amount of time which made me think 'what was the point?' just seemed like a cheap gimmick which we have all seen on previous tours. Portnoy seemed to get slammed for adding more equipment and standing up playing and people saying he had a 'look at me' attitude, when Jordan seems to be doing the exact same thing with rotating keyboards, keytars, ipods/ipads and now tilting keyboards. (is there a musical purpose to the tilting sideways keyboard?)
The continuum thing was just my personal taste of not liking the sound it produces (and not necissarily anything to do with that show in particular) i just feel enough is enough and dont overdo it. I know how much the rest of the band highly regard Jordan and I know how many people say they felt like DT had become 'The Portnoy show' - well i liked 'The Portnoy show' but feel recently like its becoming 'The Jordan show' especially as I felt Jordan used way too many different patches on ADTOE and quite a few totally horrible sounds, as if he was just free to do whatever he wants, but the amount of sounds and cheap sounding patches overshadowed the actual playing for me.
Hey im not trying to make enemies here, its a discussion where peoples opinions are asked for, so i gave mine, there is no right or wrong... I only have strong feelings towards DT because they are my favourite band and i care about the songs, the arrangements, the members, the setlists etc
You mentioned how much more fun you and your friend thought the band where having, but i never once thought that the band previously looked like there was a problem and would never have thought that there was any bad friction between band members when watching past performances before any of us knew Portnoy was ready to quit, as they always looked like they loved what they are doing when i saw them and from dvd and net footage.
Although One thing which really left a sour taste in my mouth was watching the dvd that came with Systematic Chaos when Jordan is acting really cocky and drinking his Starbucks and playing with the other hand, not looking what he was doing - just seemed to look like he was making a point of being bored and maybe now Portnoy has left, he is free to cram loads of sounds into a single song just to amuse himself, i personally dont care for this approach.
As you may have guessed or read in another thread, i really dont like ADTOE and would have welcomed a longer break than to get a new drummer, but there is nothing i can do but accept it. Mangini is great but for me its just not the same and its happened to most bands I love - when Friedman left Megadeth, when Slash left Guns, when Jim Martin left Faith No More I could go on and on!

[theseoafs]

You are correct in saying that i wish Jordan would get rid of the keytar and continuum... What im saying about the keytar is the fact that it seemed like he only used it for a very very short amount of time which made me think 'what was the point?' just seemed like a cheap gimmick which we have all seen on previous tours. Portnoy seemed to get slammed for adding more equipment and standing up playing and people saying he had a 'look at me' attitude, when Jordan seems to be doing the exact same thing with rotating keyboards, keytars, ipods/ipads and now tilting keyboards. (is there a musical purpose to the tilting sideways keyboard?)

I never heard Portnoy get any criticism for having too many things onstage. Jordan uses the keytar so he can get out and actually play with the band during the show. Can you blame him? It's probably a bummer being stuck back there behind all that equipment.

Although One thing which really left a sour taste in my mouth was watching the dvd that came with Systematic Chaos when Jordan is acting really cocky and drinking his Starbucks and playing with the other hand, not looking what he was doing - just seemed to look like he was making a point of being bored

He was being funny. It was a jokey joke.

he is free to cram loads of sounds into a single song just to amuse himself, i personally dont care for this approach.

Jordan adds atmosphere and variety. The keyboard is able to produce a lot of sounds, so why would we want every song to sound the same? SC and BCSL were remarkably samey keyboard-wise -- Jordan's lines usually amounted to doubling up on the guitar for the verses, maybe doing some chords on a string patch or organ over the chorus, and playing a lead for the inevitable extended solo. It's a good thing he didn't do that on ADTOE. It's not just for fun.

[MarkFitDT]

You are correct in saying that i wish Jordan would get rid of the keytar and continuum... What im saying about the keytar is the fact that it seemed like he only used it for a very very short amount of time which made me think 'what was the point?' just seemed like a cheap gimmick which we have all seen on previous tours. Portnoy seemed to get slammed for adding more equipment and standing up playing and people saying he had a 'look at me' attitude, when Jordan seems to be doing the exact same thing with rotating keyboards, keytars, ipods/ipads and now tilting keyboards. (is there a musical purpose to the tilting sideways keyboard?)
The continuum thing was just my personal taste of not liking the sound it produces (and not necissarily anything to do with that show in particular) i just feel enough is enough and dont overdo it. I know how much the rest of the band highly regard Jordan and I know how many people say they felt like DT had become 'The Portnoy show' - well i liked 'The Portnoy show' but feel recently like its becoming 'The Jordan show' especially as I felt Jordan used way too many different patches on ADTOE and quite a few totally horrible sounds, as if he was just free to do whatever he wants, but the amount of sounds and cheap sounding patches overshadowed the actual playing for me.
Hey im not trying to make enemies here, its a discussion where peoples opinions are asked for, so i gave mine, there is no right or wrong... I only have strong feelings towards DT because they are my favourite band and i care about the songs, the arrangements, the members, the setlists etc
You mentioned how much more fun you and your friend thought the band where having, but i never once thought that the band previously looked like there was a problem and would never have thought that there was any bad friction between band members when watching past performances before any of us knew Portnoy was ready to quit, as they always looked like they loved what they are doing when i saw them and from dvd and net footage.
Although One thing which really left a sour taste in my mouth was watching the dvd that came with Systematic Chaos when Jordan is acting really cocky and drinking his Starbucks and playing with the other hand, not looking what he was doing - just seemed to look like he was making a point of being bored and maybe now Portnoy has left, he is free to cram loads of sounds into a single song just to amuse himself, i personally dont care for this approach.
As you may have guessed or read in another thread, i really dont like ADTOE and would have welcomed a longer break than to get a new drummer, but there is nothing i can do but accept it. Mangini is great but for me its just not the same and its happened to most bands I love - when Friedman left Megadeth, when Slash left Guns, when Jim Martin left Faith No More I could go on and on!

listen, you certainly arent making enemies and are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else and who is to say im right and your wrong? Just to put it on record im not anti Portnoy. His music has had a massive effect on my life and just last night I was listening to LTE2 and the drumming is immense.
Im the opposite to you - I absolutely love ADTOE. To me, its the DT that I fell in love with in the late 80s, early 90s. I love the keys on the album - less shredding, less doubling up of the guitar, the sounds (for me) are fantastic. There were too many little things creeping in over the last few albums that on the face of it were influenced by MP more than anyone which I didnt like and they seem to have disappeared on this album. I only mentioned my friends reaction because it was totally neutral. I think a lot of us on here have found ourselves one side of the fence or the other regarding the drumming issue whether we have done it deliberately or not. I personally dont think that a longer break wouldnt have helped because it seems that a lot of these things have been festering for a lot longer than we probably realised.
I will say though that I think that you are totally wrong about Jordan and his attitude. I think he was just mucking around like theseoafs said. He comes across as being a totallydown to earth guy.

[deadtotheworld]

You hit the nail on the head when you mention MPs influence dissapearing on this album. After hearing his influence on albums for years and years and it becoming a massive part of the sound and direction werther you like it or not, for it to just not be there anymore... Surely you can understand peoples feelings opposite to yours, that a huge part of the vibe and influence has been lost? (even if you dont agree with it)
Drumming has never been the issue with MP being replaced by MM as MM is great, but MP had so much influence in everything else that DT did, that for MP fans, this is a massive peice of the puzzle that has not been replaced and may never be, which to me, thats what the OP was getting at.

[deadtotheworld]

MarkfitDT - was going to mention in my last post that its great how people even with different opinion can be so passionate about stuff they love even though its supposed to be fun entertainment, just like how people are over passionate about football teams etc.... When I noticed that your avatar is Stoke City badge - my biggest passion is Liverpool FC and we play you in the next round of the FA Cup! Haha its probably not a good idea to get involved in footy talk too hey! ;-)

[MarkFitDT]

You hit the nail on the head when you mention MPs influence dissapearing on this album. After hearing his influence on albums for years and years and it becoming a massive part of the sound and direction werther you like it or not, for it to just not be there anymore... Surely you can understand peoples feelings opposite to yours, that a huge part of the vibe and influence has been lost? (even if you dont agree with it)
Drumming has never been the issue with MP being replaced by MM as MM is great, but MP had so much influence in everything else that DT did, that for MP fans, this is a massive peice of the puzzle that has not been replaced and may never be, which to me, thats what the OP was getting at.

I do understand and accept peoples feelings opposite to mine. Got no problem with that and we were definitely spoilt by MP with the interaction he had with the fans but he would be the exception rather than the rule in the music business. We were very lucky. Regarding the sound, for me, the influences have always been there but they became so apparent on a couple of the last 3 or 4 albums that they started to actually sound like the bands they were influenced by - the Muse one being the first thing that comes to mind.

For me the split obviously had to happen for DT to carry on and being totally selfish they made the right decision!!

Regarding football, no its not a good idea to mention it - dont want you to get upset when we knock you out!! ;p

[Zook]

What did MP do differently on stage besides stand up a few times, spit a lot, and yell obscenities?

[lyfeternl]

What did MP do differently on stage besides stand up a few times, spit a lot, and yell obscenities?

Throw his sticks in the air super high...?

[LTE3]

They, as a band, have more energy live now that MP is gone.

I have heard this so many times and it is just not true. Watch an old show next to a new one. No difference. When I saw them I thought there was actually less activity because MP was the main showman and  Mike smiles a lot and plays fantastic but he does not compare to mike for showmanship IMO. I don't feel the other guys have changed at all and why would they. People don't change.
All this aside who give a crap i persoanlly don't go to a DT show to see them jump around like David Lee Roth I go to watch the songs I love being played live and when Mike was in the band we got a slightly better mix of that.

[theseoafs]

People don't change.

[johncal]

What did MP do differently on stage besides stand up a few times, spit a lot, and yell obscenities?

Exactly. Nothing I'd pay a cent extra to see. I'm much more impressed with what Mangini can actually do, which is considerably more, and I'm quite happy with the semi-static set list. The music is much tighter, the light show is better and the group is happier and putting out the best music ever.

The only thing that suck is if you're an MP fanboy.

[BlobVanDam]

What did MP do differently on stage besides stand up a few times, spit a lot, and yell obscenities?

Exactly. Nothing I'd pay a cent extra to see. I'm much more impressed with what Mangini can actually do, which is considerably more, and I'm quite happy with the semi-static set list. The music is much tighter, the light show is better and the group is happier and putting out the best music ever.

The only thing that suck is if you're an MP fanboy.

So you have to be an MP fanboy to appreciate what MP brought to the band live? Yeah, right.
MP had a great energy, he connected with the crowd in a way I haven't really seen many other drummers do, plus his vocals/harmonies are now absent (which is a loss, which is why among other things, they seem to be using his vocal tracks on TTTSTA, or at least a pre-recorded vocal track as JP can't seem to do it).
The live music is tighter now, but there are certain elements lacking without MP that are a loss to the fans. And that definitely goes for ADTOE too imo.

[PetFish]

Although One thing which really left a sour taste in my mouth was watching the dvd that came with Systematic Chaos when Jordan is acting really cocky and drinking his Starbucks and playing with the other hand, not looking what he was doing - just seemed to look like he was making a point of being bored and maybe now Portnoy has left, he is free to cram loads of sounds into a single song just to amuse himself, i personally dont care for this approach.

What a ridiculous statement.

MP sticking his drumstick up his nose DURING A SHOW is ok with you?  MP playing catch with his stagehands DURING A SHOW is ok with you?  JR didn't even do his Starbucks routing during a show but as a comedy bit and you're reacting like he just gave the finger to every DT fan on the planet.  What the hell is wrong with you?

[KevShmev]

MP had a great energy, he connected with the crowd in a way I haven't really seen many other drummers do, plus his vocals/harmonies are now absent (which is a loss, which is why among other things, they seem to be using his vocal tracks on TTTSTA, or at least a pre-recorded vocal track as JP can't seem to do it).

That's called addition by subtraction. 

[BlobVanDam]

MP had a great energy, he connected with the crowd in a way I haven't really seen many other drummers do, plus his vocals/harmonies are now absent (which is a loss, which is why among other things, they seem to be using his vocal tracks on TTTSTA, or at least a pre-recorded vocal track as JP can't seem to do it).

That's called addition by subtraction. 

If DT believed that, they wouldn't have had to resort to backing tracks for the first time ever. DT had started to develop a lot of amazing 3 part harmonies over the past several albums, which are now a relative weakness live, and detracted largely from ADTOE for me. It was a noticeable loss to their songwriting. Obviously there was nothing stopping them from doing it in the studio, but they chose not to, either because they can no longer do it live, or because they didn't have MP to contribute to the arrangements, but the absence of his vocals are a loss.

[Ben_Jamin]

MP had a great energy, he connected with the crowd in a way I haven't really seen many other drummers do, plus his vocals/harmonies are now absent (which is a loss, which is why among other things, they seem to be using his vocal tracks on TTTSTA, or at least a pre-recorded vocal track as JP can't seem to do it).

That's called addition by subtraction. 

If DT believed that, they wouldn't have had to resort to backing tracks for the first time ever. DT had started to develop a lot of amazing 3 part harmonies over the past several albums, which are now a relative weakness live, and detracted largely from ADTOE for me. It was a noticeable loss to their songwriting. Obviously there was nothing stopping them from doing it in the studio, but they chose not to, either because they can no longer do it live, or because they didn't have MP to contribute to the arrangements, but the absence of his vocals are a loss.

They used backing tracks for PoW, which I was really disappointed about.

After listening to MP's last show, I'm happy the songs are being played tighter, songs would lose the emotion.

[BlobVanDam]

After listening to MP's last show, I'm happy the songs are being played tighter, songs would lose the emotion.

It was fine on the heavier songs, but some ballads just never worked well live because of the tempos (such as Solitary Shell, which I've never enjoyed in live versions at all).
Actually, most of SDOIT. I'd kill to hear TGP live with MM (those vocals shouldn't be a prob for JP).

And I don't mean that as a figure of speech. I mean I would literally kill someone or some thing to hear that in person live.

[KevShmev]

Amazing 3-part harmonies?  Oh, come on.  I'd love to hear a single example of a 3-part harmony that someone who isn't a diehard DT fan would call amazing.  Some of the harmonies DT did were, um, nice, but amazing?  Er, no.  And I am someone who loves harmonies in my rock music, but only when done well.  I've said for years that, if DT is gonna do them, they should always have JLB do all of them in the studio, ala the Take the Time chorus.  You want amazing, natural harmonies?  Go listen to CSN, the Eagles, the Beatles, etc. 

And there are plenty of harmonies on ADTOE, but we no longer have the distraction of Portnoy's voice in there.  It is either JLB doubling his voice or someone like JP doing it quiet enough to where it adds fullness, but doesn't detract from the overall harmony.

[BlobVanDam]

Amazing 3-part harmonies?  Oh, come on.  I'd love to hear a single example of a 3-part harmony that someone who isn't a diehard DT fan would call amazing.  Some of the harmonies DT did were, um, nice, but amazing?  Er, no.  And I am someone who loves harmonies in my rock music, but only when done well.  I've said for years that, if DT is gonna do them, they should always have JLB do all of them in the studio, ala the Take the Time chorus.  You want amazing, natural harmonies?  Go listen to CSN, the Eagles, the Beatles, etc. 

And there are plenty of harmonies on ADTOE, but we no longer have the distraction of Portnoy's voice in there.  It is either JLB doubling his voice or someone like JP doing it quiet enough to where it adds fullness, but doesn't detract from the overall harmony.

Ugh whatever. I'm not going to nitpick semantics with you. My point is that the 3 part harmonies they did with MP are a lot better than the simpler harmonies on ADTOE. To me it was a noticeable big step backwards for DT to lack that depth and diversity of vocals. Nothing on ADTOE compares to the harmonies of either chorus in ANTR (the "life was so simple....." bit and the "peaceful sedation" bit), or the chorus of AROP.
I can accept that some people aren't crazy about MP's "gruff" vocal contributions, but there's no way his voice was a "distraction" to those great harmonies.

[KevShmev]

Nitpick semantics?  You're the one who said they had amazing 3-part harmonies, and when I ask for one example, you're gonna cop out with the semantics line?  Fine, have it your way.

And I would argue that the scaled back harmonies on ADTOE (or simpler, as you put it) is the band realizing their vocal limitations, sans JLB.  They are now the way they were in the beginning, before Portnoy decided that he could sing, and then repeatedly gave himself multiple vocal sections on almost every album from that point on.  Dream Theater has one legitimately great singer: James La Brie.  That's the way it's been since the early 90s, and anyone else in the band singing loud enough to where you can actually make out their voice only weakens the overall strength of the vocals. 

[BlobVanDam]

Your entire post and argument reeks of so much blatant bias against MP and recent DT, so I have nothing more to say there. You asked for examples of better harmonies with MP, and I gave you some. Not a cop-out. You disagree with them, so we'll agree to disagree.

[KevShmev]

Bias against Portnoy and recent DT?    Yeah, let's ignore that I have been on record since its release as really liking Black Clouds and Silver Linings.  Yep, let's ignore that.

Besides, do you know what bias really means?  Not liking a certain aspect of one of your favorite bands is not a bias.  You sound like a raving fanboy who wants to dismiss an opinion as a bias rather than accepting the fact that not everyone likes what you like.

And no, I asked for harmonies that could be called amazing, but you side-stepped it and then merely pointed out several that you thought were better than the best ones on ADTOE, which according to you are nothing special, so how is being better than nothing special amazing?  Is there no gray area between "nothing special" and "amazing"?

But we can agree to disagree since you apparently do not like being asked to back up your comments.

[BlobVanDam]

Bias against Portnoy and recent DT?    Yeah, let's ignore that I have been on record since its release as really liking Black Clouds and Silver Linings.  Yep, let's ignore that.

Really? You could have fooled me.

Besides, do you know what bias really means?  Not liking a certain aspect of one of your favorite bands is not a bias.  You sound like a raving fanboy who wants to dismiss an opinion as a bias rather than accepting the fact that not everyone likes what you like.

Calling me a raving fanboy is your argument now? Despite the fan I have happily stated points where MM has proven better for DT? I don't have anything against MM, and I don't blindly defend MP.
You're dismissing my opinions by calling me a fanboy. How is that different? Statements such as "Portnoy decided he could sing" don't sound too impartial to me. You've been entirely unwilling to concede or accept any possible positive comment here about MP, whether it's his drumming abilities, his contributions to the band's songwriting, or his vocal abilities. Which one of us is more biased here?

And no, I asked for harmonies that could be called amazing, but you side-stepped it and then merely pointed out several that you thought were better than the best ones on ADTOE, which according to you are nothing special, so how is being better than nothing special amazing?  Is there no gray area between "nothing special" and "amazing"?

I said the ones on BCASL were amazing and great in separate posts. I stick by both statements. Since you were unwilling to accept "amazing", I tried to meet you halfway and approach the actual point of my argument another way that was more relevant to the discussion. Apparently you're the one conveniently ignoring any grey area between "nothing special" and "amazing". You're continuing to nitpick semantic arguments rather than the argument at hand here.

But we can agree to disagree since you apparently do not like being asked to back up your comments.

Which comments did I not back up? You asked for examples, I gave them, your rebuttle was "things weren't that way back in my day" and "I don't like MP's vocals".

I'd say we've agreed to disagree? Since clearly nobody is changing their mind here.

[Mladen]

I'll chime in just in order to say that some three part vocal harmonies were amazing. However, there wasn't a whole lot of those so they do not have to worry about reproducing them live, and then again, James can do all of these harmonies on his own when recording the album.

[kirksnosehair]

What did MP do differently on stage besides stand up a few times, spit a lot, and yell obscenities?

Exactly. Nothing I'd pay a cent extra to see. I'm much more impressed with what Mangini can actually do, which is considerably more, and I'm quite happy with the semi-static set list. The music is much tighter, the light show is better and the group is happier and putting out the best music ever.

The only thing that suck is if you're an MP fanboy.

[adameastment]

They, as a band, have more energy live now that MP is gone.

[KevShmev]

Bias against Portnoy and recent DT?    Yeah, let's ignore that I have been on record since its release as really liking Black Clouds and Silver Linings.  Yep, let's ignore that.

Really? You could have fooled me.

This is why it helps to pay attention and not jump to conclusions.  While I think ADTOE was a massive upgrade over all of the albums from 2003-2009, I still like both Train of Thought and BC&SL quite a bit.  I have said that for a while now.  I get that everyone can't remember how much everyone else likes an album or a song, but I have said nothing in this thread that would indicate that I didn't like BC&SL, for example.

Besides, do you know what bias really means?  Not liking a certain aspect of one of your favorite bands is not a bias.  You sound like a raving fanboy who wants to dismiss an opinion as a bias rather than accepting the fact that not everyone likes what you like.

Calling me a raving fanboy is your argument now? Despite the fan I have happily stated points where MM has proven better for DT? I don't have anything against MM, and I don't blindly defend MP.
You're dismissing my opinions by calling me a fanboy. How is that different? Statements such as "Portnoy decided he could sing" don't sound too impartial to me. You've been entirely unwilling to concede or accept any possible positive comment here about MP, whether it's his drumming abilities, his contributions to the band's songwriting, or his vocal abilities. Which one of us is more biased here?

Neither.  You still do not understand what bias means, quite clearly.  Go look it up in the dictionary and then get back to me.

I'll help you a bit: being biased is based on a preconceived notion.  I am basing my opinions on everything I have heard, not on some preconceived notion about Mike Portnoy, his singing, or anything else we are talking about here.  HTH.

Can I say you have a bias against Awake because you never miss an opportunity to slam it?  Nope.  You don't have a bias against it; you simply are not that wild about it.  If you had never listened to it and decided you didn't like for external reasons before doing so, that would be a bias.

And no, I asked for harmonies that could be called amazing, but you side-stepped it and then merely pointed out several that you thought were better than the best ones on ADTOE, which according to you are nothing special, so how is being better than nothing special amazing?  Is there no gray area between "nothing special" and "amazing"?

I said the ones on BCASL were amazing and great in separate posts. I stick by both statements. Since you were unwilling to accept "amazing", I tried to meet you halfway and approach the actual point of my argument another way that was more relevant to the discussion. Apparently you're the one conveniently ignoring any grey area between "nothing special" and "amazing". You're continuing to nitpick semantic arguments rather than the argument at hand here.

No, rather than moving the goalposts, which is what people do in discussions/arguments when they are losing it, a better reply on your part would have been, "Okay, maybe using the world amazing was a bit of hyperbole on my part - something we are all guilty of doing on occasion - but I still think the harmonies DT when Portnoy was in the band were great, and I enjoyed them a lot."  But no, you had to change the standard and then got pissy when called out for it.

Lastly, you did NOT say the harmonies you mentioned from BC&SL were amazing; you simply said they were better than the ones from ADTOE.  Your words:

My point is that the 3 part harmonies they did with MP are a lot better than the simpler harmonies on ADTOE. To me it was a noticeable big step backwards for DT to lack that depth and diversity of vocals. Nothing on ADTOE compares to the harmonies of either chorus in ANTR (the "life was so simple....." bit and the "peaceful sedation" bit), or the chorus of AROP.

So now you are trying to put words in your own mouth that you never said.

But we can agree to disagree since you apparently do not like being asked to back up your comments.

Which comments did I not back up? You asked for examples, I gave them, your rebuttle was "things weren't that way back in my day" and "I don't like MP's vocals".

I'd say we've agreed to disagree? Since clearly nobody is changing their mind here.

That's fine. 

[Rob801]

This is MM first tour and he doesnt know a lot of the songs yet. I have seen people that said on JR's first tour they didn't change the setlist much either. It may return. Also, this MM tour has been the best out of what I have seen.

This is a little bit late, and I'm not sure if anyone else has responded to this, but the fact is that MM has said in interviews (well at least one that I read) that he now has the entire DT back catalog under his belt so I wouldn't be surprised if he knows most of the songs better then the rest of the band at the moment

This is just an observation, I don't really care one way or the other about the rotating set list thing (or if I do it's probably 60/40 for the current method) but I don't think the reason is because MM is new anymore (at least since their Christmas break where MM said he learned the rest of the songs IIRC).

[reneranucci]

I recently watched the video of Instrumedley with all 4 members in one split screen, and you can notice an abysmal difference between MP and the rest, back in 2005. The same in LSFNY in 2000. MP's reputation as the showman was well deserved, and I think JLB's inability to direct the show (increased by the nature of a band like DT) played a major factor in MP trying to make the audience clap and get involved at least once per show.

Now if they have decided to make more efforts to present a not so boring live show, good.

[Orbert]

Yeah, JLB is not the most dynamic front man, and obviously he can't front things during the instrumental breaks.  The natural thing would have been for JM or JP to step up, but that doesn't seem to be in either of their personalities, really.  MP had the personality, but there's only so much you can do from behind a drum kit.