"Music they couldn't have done without Mangini."

[KevShmev]

I have seen comments similar to this, in regards to Mangini being able to do things on the drums that Portnoy cannot, and DT doing things on ADTOE that they couldn't have done without Mangini, but I am curious as to what specific things they are, merely out of curiosity. 

The one thing that comes to mind for me is the second verse of Bridges in the Sky.  That is such an odd and unique drum pattern that drives the music, it sounds pretty different from anything else I've heard in DT (although it might be similar to an older drum part, which someone will point out as being the same time signature or something ).

Anyway, examples, please.

[Nihil-Morari]

Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.

I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.

[JimmyJava]

Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.

I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.

[Ben_Jamin]

One thing I noticed is how well he blends into the music, to where I forget they're playing

[orcus116]

There might be nuances I missed but if I knew nothing about the whole Portnoy thing and you told me he was drumming on the album I would've believed you. Next album will be the true tell tale sign more than likely.

[Dekost]

Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.

I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.

Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.

[yorost]

It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it.  Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?

[Elite]

I think the record would definitely have sounded 'different'.  But 'what if?' scenarios are always sketchy. We simply don't know.

[ResultsMayVary]

Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.

I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.

Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.

I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...

[Lowdz]

Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.

I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.

Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.

I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...

And yet we did get TDOE with MP. Is Outcry more crazy?

[hefdaddy42]

Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.

I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.

Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.

I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...

And yet we did get TDOE with MP. Is Outcry more crazy?

Yes.

[Dekost]

Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.

I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.

Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.

I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...

And yet we did get TDOE with MP. Is Outcry more crazy?

Drum-wise, yes.

[ResultsMayVary]

Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.

I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.

Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.

I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...

And yet we did get TDOE with MP. Is Outcry more crazy?

I was referring to the part in OTBOA like the post I quoted.

However, Hef answered your question, so it's all good, I guess.

[DebraKadabra]

And yet we did get TDOE with MP.

But... you have to keep in mind that Mangini played TDOE one-handed (at least during the audition video).

[Pinga]

It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it.  Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?

If he practiced, I think he could, but not as tightly as Mangini (and this is more evident by his recent sloppy Lands in the Sand performance). However, I definitely think he couldn't have come up with those parts, especially since his drumming had devolved during his late years with Dream Theater into a bag of tricks. Finally, with his iron-grip production methods absent, the band made some music they definitely wouldn't have made with Portnoy.

[Dublagent66]

I thought all the music was written without Mangini.  He may spice up the songs with his drumming but I don't understand the OP mentioning that "they" couldn't have done certain parts without Mangini.  Maybe it should've been worded, "the music wouldn't sound the same without Mangini.". Just like it doesn't sound the same without Portnoy.  I guess it's all relative.

[TL]

I think one key difference is the substantial change in the writing process, both writing without coming up with drum parts at the same time, and taking longer to find interesting ways for the different instruments to play off each other. With MP, there always seemed to be a drive to keep moving, and to keep a certain pace to the proceedings. That's not a knock against MP; it's a process that has worked very well in a lot of his side projects. For DT though, I think they're much better when they take a bit of time to work things out.

As for the actual drumming; most of the highly skilled stuff Mike Mangini played on the record was very subtle, and could easily be overlooked if one wasn't looking for it. That's one of the things I love about his playing. It's just very musical. He's amazing at playing what suits the music in question, and playing off of the other musicians.

[BlobVanDam]

There might be nuances I missed but if I knew nothing about the whole Portnoy thing and you told me he was drumming on the album I would've believed you. Next album will be the true tell tale sign more than likely.

This. I don't hear anything on ADTOE that is beyond Portnoy. I don't mean this as an insult at MM, because I know he's potentially capable of more than Portnoy, I'm just not hearing it on ADTOE (and being compared to MP's playing isn't an insult anyway). With MM's full involvement on the next album, I think we'll hear him integrate better and push harder than on ADTOE.

[KevShmev]

I definitely wasn't talking about the writing process when I started this thread, but rather the technicality of the music and if they did stuff with Mangini that Portnoy couldn't have done.   The writing process clearly (to me) benefited by the approach they took when writing ADTOE. 

[Bertielee]

What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.

B.Lee

[Nihil-Morari]

What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.

B.Lee

Timestamp?

[Bertielee]

What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.

B.Lee

Timestamp?

Beginning even slightly  before the section at around the 2 minute mark and going to the 2 minute 37 mark. I'm not a drummer, but some of the fills are incredible. Well, in fact, I finds the whole section impressive tbh.

B.Lee

[Nihil-Morari]

What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.

B.Lee

Timestamp?

Beginning even slightly  before the section at around the 2 minute mark and going to the 2 minute 37 mark. I'm not a drummer, but some of the fills are incredible. Well, in fact, I finds the whole section impressive tbh.

B.Lee

Well, there's basically only one drumfill, and TBH, drum-wise, that's not that impressive. Getting your feet to do 16th notes, and hitting accents with both hands at the same time isn't something any metal-drummer would get nightmares from.

For JR and JP however that section seems like nightmare. Ron Jarzombek stuff, there are some semi-sweeping arpeggio's from JP that are mental.

[Bertielee]

What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.

B.Lee

Timestamp?

Beginning even slightly  before the section at around the 2 minute mark and going to the 2 minute 37 mark. I'm not a drummer, but some of the fills are incredible. Well, in fact, I finds the whole section impressive tbh.

B.Lee

Well, there's basically only one drumfill, and TBH, drum-wise, that's not that impressive. Getting your feet to do 16th notes, and hitting accents with both hands at the same time isn't something any metal-drummer would get nightmares from.

For JR and JP however that section seems like nightmare. Ron Jarzombek stuff, there are some semi-sweeping arpeggio's from JP that are mental.

OK, my bad, then. Yet we agree on the fact that the keyboard-guitar part is insane!

B.Lee

[Nihil-Morari]

Nah it's okay! And yes, that part is totally amazing 

[Flacracker]

How about the octobans plus the cymbals on Metropolis Pt 1 live?

[ResultsMayVary]

How about the octobans plus the cymbals on Metropolis Pt 1 live?

Great point. That's the first live performance I've ever heard it done, even including all the years MP was in the band.

[Implode]

Came here to post that. Great stuff.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it.  Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?

Portnoy got lazy in the later years, IMO. His fills and his rhythms became kind of stale. The last truly great Portnoy album in terms of drumming was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.


The way I see it, he got so involved in the "directive" aspects of Dream Theater, the "OMG SIDE PROJECTS! thing and the several collaborations that he left the "drumming" aspect a little behind.

[Blackfield]

True story.

[Ħ]

It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it.  Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?

Portnoy got lazy in the later years, IMO. His fills and his rhythms became kind of stale. The last truly great Portnoy album in terms of drumming was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

I wouldn't say he got lazy. He just didn't have any more tricks up his sleeve. From WDADU to SDOIT, he got better and better each album, and then he peaked and was pretty much at the same level for the rest of the albums, and even now. I mean, MP did say that he never practices anymore, so that's what you'd expect.

[Super Dude]

It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it.  Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?

Portnoy got lazy in the later years, IMO. His fills and his rhythms became kind of stale. The last truly great Portnoy album in terms of drumming was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

I wouldn't say he got lazy. He just didn't have any more tricks up his sleeve. From WDADU to SDOIT, he got better and better each album, and then he peaked and was pretty much at the same level for the rest of the albums, and even now. I mean, MP did say that he never practices anymore, so that's what you'd expect.

Which, I would just like to point out that no matter what instrument you're playing, this is always a bad idea, because it results in exactly what happened with his drumming.

[Nekov]

I think MP would be able to play most of the things in ADTOE but there are bits and pieces that I think he couldn't. However I don't think he would have played the drums the way MM does because that's just not his style. With MP this would have been a very different album even if he only had to write and record the drums.

It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it.  Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?

Portnoy got lazy in the later years, IMO. His fills and his rhythms became kind of stale. The last truly great Portnoy album in terms of drumming was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

I wouldn't say he got lazy. He just didn't have any more tricks up his sleeve. From WDADU to SDOIT, he got better and better each album, and then he peaked and was pretty much at the same level for the rest of the albums, and even now. I mean, MP did say that he never practices anymore, so that's what you'd expect.

I have to agree with darklord here. MP got lazy and even he admitted it in a couple of interviews. He said he was a bad role model because he got so much stuff going on that he never practices or learns new stuff any more.

[yorost]

MP may have gotten lazy, but that doesn't mean he could not have done the stuff on ADToE.  I can definitely buy that various things on the album would not have happened if he were there, due to his control or possibly unwillingness to try certain things.  What I don't see reason to believe is that Portnoy was simply incapable at doing things on the drum that Mangini did on ADToE.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Portnoy is very talented, for sure; but Mangini's playing is just tighter in every sense of the word. I've been watching videos of the recent performances of The Root of all Evil (and the other new songs on the setlists, for that matter), and it sounds powerful and clear. It was pointed out already, that constant practice makes a world of difference in little details,