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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: KevShmev on January 29, 2012, 11:47:15 AM
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I have seen comments similar to this, in regards to Mangini being able to do things on the drums that Portnoy cannot, and DT doing things on ADTOE that they couldn't have done without Mangini, but I am curious as to what specific things they are, merely out of curiosity.
The one thing that comes to mind for me is the second verse of Bridges in the Sky. That is such an odd and unique drum pattern that drives the music, it sounds pretty different from anything else I've heard in DT (although it might be similar to an older drum part, which someone will point out as being the same time signature or something :lol).
Anyway, examples, please.
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Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.
I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.
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Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.
I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.
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One thing I noticed is how well he blends into the music, to where I forget they're playing
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There might be nuances I missed but if I knew nothing about the whole Portnoy thing and you told me he was drumming on the album I would've believed you. Next album will be the true tell tale sign more than likely.
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Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.
I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.
Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.
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It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it. Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?
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I think the record would definitely have sounded 'different'. But 'what if?' scenarios are always sketchy. We simply don't know.
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Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.
I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.
Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.
I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...
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Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.
I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.
Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.
I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...
And yet we did get TDOE with MP. Is Outcry more crazy?
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Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.
I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.
Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.
I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...
And yet we did get TDOE with MP. Is Outcry more crazy?
Yes.
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Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.
I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.
Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.
I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...
And yet we did get TDOE with MP. Is Outcry more crazy?
Drum-wise, yes.
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Outcry instrumental bit. Definitely.
I'm inclined to say no other drummer could've come up with that, not with that crispness during the most oddest of time signature changes I've ever heard from DT.
Yeah, and also the On The Backs of Angles pattern where he doubles the keyboard with one hand and guitar and bass with the other hand and feet. Also other details thoughout the album, like absolutely crazy fills.
I'm almost certain we wouldn't have gotten that crazy part with MP at the helm. That part is nuts...
And yet we did get TDOE with MP. Is Outcry more crazy?
I was referring to the part in OTBOA like the post I quoted.
However, Hef answered your question, so it's all good, I guess.
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And yet we did get TDOE with MP.
But... you have to keep in mind that Mangini played TDOE one-handed (at least during the audition video).
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It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it. Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?
If he practiced, I think he could, but not as tightly as Mangini (and this is more evident by his recent sloppy Lands in the Sand performance). However, I definitely think he couldn't have come up with those parts, especially since his drumming had devolved during his late years with Dream Theater into a bag of tricks. Finally, with his iron-grip production methods absent, the band made some music they definitely wouldn't have made with Portnoy.
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I thought all the music was written without Mangini. He may spice up the songs with his drumming but I don't understand the OP mentioning that "they" couldn't have done certain parts without Mangini. Maybe it should've been worded, "the music wouldn't sound the same without Mangini.". Just like it doesn't sound the same without Portnoy. I guess it's all relative.
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I think one key difference is the substantial change in the writing process, both writing without coming up with drum parts at the same time, and taking longer to find interesting ways for the different instruments to play off each other. With MP, there always seemed to be a drive to keep moving, and to keep a certain pace to the proceedings. That's not a knock against MP; it's a process that has worked very well in a lot of his side projects. For DT though, I think they're much better when they take a bit of time to work things out.
As for the actual drumming; most of the highly skilled stuff Mike Mangini played on the record was very subtle, and could easily be overlooked if one wasn't looking for it. That's one of the things I love about his playing. It's just very musical. He's amazing at playing what suits the music in question, and playing off of the other musicians.
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There might be nuances I missed but if I knew nothing about the whole Portnoy thing and you told me he was drumming on the album I would've believed you. Next album will be the true tell tale sign more than likely.
This. I don't hear anything on ADTOE that is beyond Portnoy. I don't mean this as an insult at MM, because I know he's potentially capable of more than Portnoy, I'm just not hearing it on ADTOE (and being compared to MP's playing isn't an insult anyway). With MM's full involvement on the next album, I think we'll hear him integrate better and push harder than on ADTOE.
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I definitely wasn't talking about the writing process when I started this thread, but rather the technicality of the music and if they did stuff with Mangini that Portnoy couldn't have done. The writing process clearly (to me) benefited by the approach they took when writing ADTOE.
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What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.
B.Lee
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What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.
B.Lee
Timestamp?
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What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.
B.Lee
Timestamp?
Beginning even slightly before the section at around the 2 minute mark and going to the 2 minute 37 mark. I'm not a drummer, but some of the fills are incredible. Well, in fact, I finds the whole section impressive tbh.
B.Lee
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What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.
B.Lee
Timestamp?
Beginning even slightly before the section at around the 2 minute mark and going to the 2 minute 37 mark. I'm not a drummer, but some of the fills are incredible. Well, in fact, I finds the whole section impressive tbh.
B.Lee
Well, there's basically only one drumfill, and TBH, drum-wise, that's not that impressive. Getting your feet to do 16th notes, and hitting accents with both hands at the same time isn't something any metal-drummer would get nightmares from.
For JR and JP however that section seems like nightmare. Ron Jarzombek stuff, there are some semi-sweeping arpeggio's from JP that are mental.
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What comes to my mind MM's drumming during the tickle section of LNF. Now, i find that crazy. For me, what's really different with MM behind the drums is how tight the band now is. I have all DT studio albums, most of their live albums, saw them 3 times on tour and I think I've never heard them play as tight and cohesive as with MM. May be wrong though.
B.Lee
Timestamp?
Beginning even slightly before the section at around the 2 minute mark and going to the 2 minute 37 mark. I'm not a drummer, but some of the fills are incredible. Well, in fact, I finds the whole section impressive tbh.
B.Lee
Well, there's basically only one drumfill, and TBH, drum-wise, that's not that impressive. Getting your feet to do 16th notes, and hitting accents with both hands at the same time isn't something any metal-drummer would get nightmares from.
For JR and JP however that section seems like nightmare. Ron Jarzombek stuff, there are some semi-sweeping arpeggio's from JP that are mental.
OK, my bad, then. Yet we agree on the fact that the keyboard-guitar part is insane!
B.Lee
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Nah it's okay! And yes, that part is totally amazing :)
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How about the octobans plus the cymbals on Metropolis Pt 1 live?
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How about the octobans plus the cymbals on Metropolis Pt 1 live?
Great point. That's the first live performance I've ever heard it done, even including all the years MP was in the band.
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Came here to post that. Great stuff.
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It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it. Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?
Portnoy got lazy in the later years, IMO. His fills and his rhythms became kind of stale. The last truly great Portnoy album in terms of drumming was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
The way I see it, he got so involved in the "directive" aspects of Dream Theater, the "OMG SIDE PROJECTS! thing and the several collaborations that he left the "drumming" aspect a little behind.
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True story.
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It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it. Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?
Portnoy got lazy in the later years, IMO. His fills and his rhythms became kind of stale. The last truly great Portnoy album in terms of drumming was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
I wouldn't say he got lazy. He just didn't have any more tricks up his sleeve. From WDADU to SDOIT, he got better and better each album, and then he peaked and was pretty much at the same level for the rest of the albums, and even now. I mean, MP did say that he never practices anymore, so that's what you'd expect.
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It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it. Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?
Portnoy got lazy in the later years, IMO. His fills and his rhythms became kind of stale. The last truly great Portnoy album in terms of drumming was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
I wouldn't say he got lazy. He just didn't have any more tricks up his sleeve. From WDADU to SDOIT, he got better and better each album, and then he peaked and was pretty much at the same level for the rest of the albums, and even now. I mean, MP did say that he never practices anymore, so that's what you'd expect.
Which, I would just like to point out that no matter what instrument you're playing, this is always a bad idea, because it results in exactly what happened with his drumming.
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I think MP would be able to play most of the things in ADTOE but there are bits and pieces that I think he couldn't. However I don't think he would have played the drums the way MM does because that's just not his style. With MP this would have been a very different album even if he only had to write and record the drums.
It's nice and all that some of his drumming is challenging or crazy, but it doesn't answer why Portnoy could not have done it. Are we saying if Portnoy went and recorded A Drumatic Turn of Events he would have to skip over these parts?
Portnoy got lazy in the later years, IMO. His fills and his rhythms became kind of stale. The last truly great Portnoy album in terms of drumming was Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
I wouldn't say he got lazy. He just didn't have any more tricks up his sleeve. From WDADU to SDOIT, he got better and better each album, and then he peaked and was pretty much at the same level for the rest of the albums, and even now. I mean, MP did say that he never practices anymore, so that's what you'd expect.
I have to agree with darklord here. MP got lazy and even he admitted it in a couple of interviews. He said he was a bad role model because he got so much stuff going on that he never practices or learns new stuff any more.
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MP may have gotten lazy, but that doesn't mean he could not have done the stuff on ADToE. I can definitely buy that various things on the album would not have happened if he were there, due to his control or possibly unwillingness to try certain things. What I don't see reason to believe is that Portnoy was simply incapable at doing things on the drum that Mangini did on ADToE.
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Portnoy is very talented, for sure; but Mangini's playing is just tighter in every sense of the word. I've been watching videos of the recent performances of The Root of all Evil (and the other new songs on the setlists, for that matter), and it sounds powerful and clear. It was pointed out already, that constant practice makes a world of difference in little details,
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MP may have gotten lazy, but that doesn't mean he could not have done the stuff on ADToE. I can definitely buy that various things on the album would not have happened if he were there, due to his control or possibly unwillingness to try certain things. What I don't see reason to believe is that Portnoy was simply incapable at doing things on the drum that Mangini did on ADToE.
Unless Portnoy is fully ambidextrous like Mangini is, it would be impossible to do the same things. Since even MP has said in the past that MM is a better drummer he probably said that for a reason. The fact that Mangini is adding all kinds of stuff on top of Portnoy's parts kind of bears that out. Don't get me wrong, Portnoy was great but he would be"lost not forgotten"if he tried to do that song.
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The biggest difference to me, when I hear MM play, is I can tell that he's playing as a member of the group. See, what I was beginning to hear with Portnoy's playing was a sort of "I'm the band leader, so everyone should follow what I do" type of playing. It seemed to me that the other members were following the drums. Like, JP would play something that would fit with MPs beat. Towards the end of MPs tenure, it started to sound as though the drums were driving the band, and all the others were just following his lead.
What I hear with MM is much more subtle, but suitable for the music. It's exactly what JR said in the documentary, I can hear MM listening and understanding exactly what every other member of the band is playing, and he plays a groove that compliments the others.
If you want specifics: At the end of the instrumental break in Outcry, where JR is playing a subtle piano part, MM plays very softly on symbols. That particular part--not necessarily couldn't be played--but wouldn't, by MP, for whatever reason. I find that part to be the most amazing act of selflessness on the whole album. It's as if Mangini's saying, "Ok Jordan, it's your time to shine. I'll just hang back and enjoy."
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The biggest difference to me, when I hear MM play, is I can tell that he's playing as a member of the group. See, what I was beginning to hear with Portnoy's playing was a sort of "I'm the band leader, so everyone should follow what I do" type of playing. It seemed to me that the other members were following the drums. Like, JP would play something that would fit with MPs beat. Towards the end of MPs tenure, it started to sound as though the drums were driving the band, and all the others were just following his lead.
What I hear with MM is much more subtle, but suitable for the music. It's exactly what JR said in the documentary, I can hear MM listening and understanding exactly what every other member of the band is playing, and he plays a groove that compliments the others.
If you want specifics: At the end of the instrumental break in Outcry, where JR is playing a subtle piano part, MM plays very softly on symbols. That particular part--not necessarily couldn't be played--but wouldn't, by MP, for whatever reason. I find that part to be the most amazing act of selflessness on the whole album. It's as if Mangini's saying, "Ok Jordan, it's your time to shine. I'll just hang back and enjoy."
There was an interview where MM said he hardest part for him drumming on the album was holding back in certain sections (like the one mentioned above). That shows a high level of discipline previously unknown in it. However, you'll notice it rubbed off on JP and JR as well. Much better thought out musical passages and solos, with very little unneeded wankery. Lot's of blistering fast playing still show up but much more purposeful.
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The biggest difference to me, when I hear MM play, is I can tell that he's playing as a member of the group. See, what I was beginning to hear with Portnoy's playing was a sort of "I'm the band leader, so everyone should follow what I do" type of playing. It seemed to me that the other members were following the drums. Like, JP would play something that would fit with MPs beat. Towards the end of MPs tenure, it started to sound as though the drums were driving the band, and all the others were just following his lead.
What I hear with MM is much more subtle, but suitable for the music. It's exactly what JR said in the documentary, I can hear MM listening and understanding exactly what every other member of the band is playing, and he plays a groove that compliments the others.
If you want specifics: At the end of the instrumental break in Outcry, where JR is playing a subtle piano part, MM plays very softly on symbols. That particular part--not necessarily couldn't be played--but wouldn't, by MP, for whatever reason. I find that part to be the most amazing act of selflessness on the whole album. It's as if Mangini's saying, "Ok Jordan, it's your time to shine. I'll just hang back and enjoy."
There was an interview where MM said he hardest part for him drumming on the album was holding back in certain sections (like the one mentioned above). That shows a high level of discipline previously unknown in it. However, you'll notice it rubbed off on JP and JR as well. Much better thought out musical passages and solos, with very little unneeded wankery. Lot's of blistering fast playing still show up but much more purposeful.
I wouldn't call Outcry any more purposeful than anything else they've done recently at all. And BITS still has a guitar solo, followed by a keyboard solo, then a continuum solo right after that. Are these any more purposeful than TCOT/TBOT/TSF/Wither? (yeah, I'm not gonna argue AROP or ANTR. I'm not that silly :lol).
It's all the same thing to me. Not that I mean that negatively, and I've always been one to defend it on previous albums too. They can play however fast or long that they want, as long as I likes it, which I mostly do. There is definitely less excessive "wankery" on ADTOE, but there's still a healthy dose of it (and I wouldn't have it any other way :biggrin: )
But DT have been perfectly capable of showing restraint with MP too. What about Wither, or TBOT? A lot of restraint there from all members. JR's piano playing is wonderfully understated in TBOT. And the second half of TCOT is very tasteful. JR has even said he found it hard to show that much restraint to play that simple.
One of the biggest problems for MP I think is the drum sound. MM's drums on ADTOE are turned further back in the mix, and sound a lot more natural and retain their natural dynamics, so they have subtlety. MP's drums on the past several albums have been very processed to lack that subtlety and dynamics, and it's very upfront in the mix. So even when he's playing something very tasteful and restrained, it's still pounding in your ear. Listen to his drum work behind the acoustic guitar at the end of TCOT. There's some nice light cymbal work, then a very understated beat that builds up in sync with the rest of the band. But it's processed to hell. Maybe that's still MP's fault from a producer standpoint, but not from a performance standpoint.
Anyway, I've forgotten where I was going with this. But DT showed more restraint on BCASL than people give them credit for. It just gets cancelled out by the few really blatant sections where they don't, like ANTR's solo onslaught, or AROP's cut 'n' paste solo extravaganza featuring Bebot's aural bleedfest. And ADTOE still has its fair share of playing super fast and crazy just because they can. But I have no problem with that.
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"like ANTR's solo onslaught, or AROP's cut 'n' paste solo extravaganza featuring Bebot's aural bleedfest" - Blob
:lol :tup
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One of the biggest problems for MP I think is the drum sound. MM's drums on ADTOE are turned further back in the mix, and sound a lot more natural and retain their natural dynamics, so they have subtlety. MP's drums on the past several albums have been very processed to lack that subtlety and dynamics, and it's very upfront in the mix. So even when he's playing something very tasteful and restrained, it's still pounding in your ear. Listen to his drum work behind the acoustic guitar at the end of TCOT. There's some nice light cymbal work, then a very understated beat that builds up in sync with the rest of the band. But it's processed to hell. Maybe that's still MP's fault from a producer standpoint, but not from a performance standpoint.
Listening through the entire DT catalog recently there seem to be two things that have happened with the sound and mix of MP starting with FII.
The first is that he is mixed louder and louder in the mix like Blob said. It makes the drums power through no matter where they are. MP still does the fills and time changes he always did, but it is just "in your face" and there are times it drowns out the subtlety of the rest of the rhythm section. It is the reason it seems harder to hear JMX and some of the more subtle keyboard work in the later albums.
The second is that MP seemed to have one hand attached to the crash cymbals. Constantly....there are some parts where everything else he is doing on the drums is drowned out by the crash, crash, crash, crash sound. This combined with the further integration of harder metal elements into his drumming over time is why his overall playing seemed to become simpler and less complex over time. Even though he still maintained some of the rest of his bag of tricks and they would shine through, his quest for MOR METUL MOR POWA was slowly drowning out the more progressive elements of his drumming (and the rest of the band in many places).
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The biggest difference to me, when I hear MM play, is I can tell that he's playing as a member of the group. See, what I was beginning to hear with Portnoy's playing was a sort of "I'm the band leader, so everyone should follow what I do" type of playing. It seemed to me that the other members were following the drums. Like, JP would play something that would fit with MPs beat. Towards the end of MPs tenure, it started to sound as though the drums were driving the band, and all the others were just following his lead.
What I hear with MM is much more subtle, but suitable for the music. It's exactly what JR said in the documentary, I can hear MM listening and understanding exactly what every other member of the band is playing, and he plays a groove that compliments the others.
If you want specifics: At the end of the instrumental break in Outcry, where JR is playing a subtle piano part, MM plays very softly on symbols. That particular part--not necessarily couldn't be played--but wouldn't, by MP, for whatever reason. I find that part to be the most amazing act of selflessness on the whole album. It's as if Mangini's saying, "Ok Jordan, it's your time to shine. I'll just hang back and enjoy."
I agree that the part at the end of Outcry is a great example of Mangini holding back and merely adding some color to the background instead of trying to jump to the forefront when another member is playing a mellow lead. I also love those marching beats he does at the very end of This Is the Life; very cool, and adds so much, while being so simple and understated.
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One difference, for me, is MM's playing in the pocket. He pays attention to what EVERYONE else in the band is playing, and tries to complement EACH of them. MP seemed to just lock in with JP.
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While I think that Portnoys playing on the last few albums that he did with DT tended to be too busy, as for talent and his ability to play copmlex parts, I'm pretty confident that he's just as tight and talented as MM. I'm not taking anything away from MM. If you watch the LTE live in LA, Portnoy shows that he can handle just about anything. And as busy as he got with DT, if you look at his side projects, he does show that he can hold back and just be the drummer. I'm sure that he had to, Portnoy could play anything on ADTOE. Would he have written the drums like that? That we will never know.
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While I think that Portnoys playing on the last few albums that he did with DT tended to be too busy, as for talent and his ability to play copmlex parts, I'm pretty confident that he's just as tight and talented as MM. I'm not taking anything away from MM. If you watch the LTE live in LA, Portnoy shows that he can handle just about anything. And as busy as he got with DT, if you look at his side projects, he does show that he can hold back and just be the drummer. I'm sure that he had to, Portnoy could play anything on ADTOE. Would he have written the drums like that? That we will never know.
But, he doesn't have the ambidextrosity and simultaneous capacity that Mangini has. On the other hand, I tend to like MP's "flow" a bit more. But they are both over-the-top drummers.
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While I think that Portnoys playing on the last few albums that he did with DT tended to be too busy, as for talent and his ability to play copmlex parts, I'm pretty confident that he's just as tight and talented as MM. I'm not taking anything away from MM. If you watch the LTE live in LA, Portnoy shows that he can handle just about anything. And as busy as he got with DT, if you look at his side projects, he does show that he can hold back and just be the drummer. I'm sure that he had to, Portnoy could play anything on ADTOE. Would he have written the drums like that? That we will never know.
But, he doesn't have the ambidextrosity and simultaneous capacity that Mangini has.
Yeah and also MP's not that good with double bass, unlike MM who does crazy stuff on the album.
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Could Portnoy play the stuff on ADTOE? Yeah, probably, with practice.
Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.
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I think MM's kit setup should be taken into account. His 'stereo setup' (as Gavin Harrison explains in his Unsettled video), makes him think of different stuff, rhythms, fills, grooves. Especially live I could see the way he plays things, his left hand being as open as his right, mostly playing open handed too. Everything gets different when you drum like that.
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Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.
Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.
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edit: sorry, double post
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Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.
Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.
What makes you think MP wouldn't have come up with that? I think we all agree that MP got lazy over the last 3 or 4 albums but on prior albums and also on his side projects he played some amazing beats.
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Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.
Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.
What makes you think MP wouldn't have come up with that? I think we all agree that MP got lazy over the last 3 or 4 albums but on prior albums and also on his side projects he played some amazing beats.
Because MM's mentality when walking in to record was totally different than what we've witnessed from MP over the past few albums. MM spoke of being a support to allow the other musicians to shine. Can you honestly say that MP would go into the studio thinking "Hey, how can I let everyone else get some spotlight?"
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I don't see how that has to do with MP coming up with good drumming. And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.
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I don't see how that has to do with MP coming up with good drumming. And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.
That doesn't have anything to do with "good drumming."
The question posed was "could MP have written the stuff on ADTOE?" I still think the answer is 'no' based on the fact that the drumming found on ADTOE is more laid back, groovy, in the pocket, and supportive of the other instruments. Also, we have the mixing of the drums being lower than what we had been accustomed to.
Yes, I'm sure there'd be some cool drumming moments if MP had the reins, but these drum parts and flavor that we've grown to love from MM and ADTOE would not be there. My example is the polyrhythm pieces and the drum/instrument matching found all over the tracks. Unless I've missed something, I haven't noticed MP do that as much if at all...
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And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.
Or because he wore the others down by always fighting until he got his way. He admitted this numerous times over the years.
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I only said that MP couldn't have come up with the drumming on ADTOE because MM's and MP's approaches are so different. MP was a composer and an arranger, and positioned himself as a lead player along with JP and JR. This, coupled with the rushed production cycles of the recent albums, resulted in a lot of unimaginative unison playing. With MM, the music was already composed, and he was able to compose drum parts that would complement what music was already there.
These are just their personalities. MP is a leader (perhaps a control freak) and this came out in his drum parts. MM is comfortable sitting back and allowing JP and JR to take the compositional reins. This is why I claim that MP couldn't have come up with many of MM's parts.
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I don't see how that has to do with MP coming up with good drumming. And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.
That doesn't have anything to do with "good drumming."
The question posed was "could MP have written the stuff on ADTOE?" I still think the answer is 'no' based on the fact that the drumming found on ADTOE is more laid back, groovy, in the pocket, and supportive of the other instruments. Also, we have the mixing of the drums being lower than what we had been accustomed to.
Yes, I'm sure there'd be some cool drumming moments if MP had the reins, but these drum parts and flavor that we've grown to love from MM and ADTOE would not be there. My example is the polyrhythm pieces and the drum/instrument matching found all over the tracks. Unless I've missed something, I haven't noticed MP do that as much if at all...
Fair point. I think there are some things Mangini plays that are beyond MPs technical skills but other than that I think MP is capable of coming up with the things MM does, but since they have a different style of playing it's hard to think of MP doing them.
And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.
Or because he wore the others down by always fighting until he got his way. He admitted this numerous times over the years.
I have a friend that does the same thing but that doesn't mean I won't step up when I think he is over the line.
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Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.
Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.
What makes you think MP wouldn't have come up with that? I think we all agree that MP got lazy over the last 3 or 4 albums but on prior albums and also on his side projects he played some amazing beats.
Because MM's mentality when walking in to record was totally different than what we've witnessed from MP over the past few albums. MM spoke of being a support to allow the other musicians to shine. Can you honestly say that MP would go into the studio thinking "Hey, how can I let everyone else get some spotlight?"
MM's mentality was basing his tracks off what JP wrote for him. Not really a level comparison. And it's easier to "serve" the rest of the band when the drums are so low in the mix. If anything it's at the expense of giving MM room to shine. MP's parts served the song and the players just as well as anything on ADTOE, they were just too upfront in the mix (which you can most likely blame MP for anyway, but it's still an important distinction for the purposes of the thread).
I hear little on ADTOE that MP couldn't have played or written. I won't say that MP could have done everything on ADTOE, as that's not entirely fair to MM's contributions to the album, but I think it's also unfair to dismiss MP's abilities and recent contributions to the band so lightly.
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MP was a composer and an arranger, and positioned himself as a lead player along with JP and JR.
Huh? Since when? Tell me one song he composed (meaning he came up with the riffs, melodies, vocal chorus, etc.) on his own. Just one. My understanding has been that his strength in the writing process has always been arranging. In other words, others write the actual music and whatnot, and he is a big part of piecing it all together. A big part of the writing process, but that doesn't really make him a composer, per se.
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MP was a composer and an arranger, and positioned himself as a lead player along with JP and JR.
Huh? Since when? Tell me one song he composed (meaning he came up with the riffs, melodies, vocal chorus, etc.) on his own. Just one. My understanding has been that his strength in the writing process has always been arranging. In other words, others write the actual music and whatnot, and he is a big part of piecing it all together. A big part of the writing process, but that doesn't really make him a composer, per se.
I know he's written a riff or two. I would assume he writes the vocal melodies for the songs he writes lyrics for (since we know JP and MP both did vocal demos, and it makes no sense that they would do so unless they needed a guide to show JLB the melody they'd written themselves for their own lyrics).
If you define composer as someone who writes the framework for a song, such as chord structures, riffs, etc, then I suppose he's not a composer. However, for a drummer he did contribute a decent amount to the music. Obviously nowhere near as much as JP and JR, or JM when he's part of the writing process, but he made his fair share of musical contributions over the years.
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^ This. Composing isn't just about riffs and melodies, and all signs point to Portnoy having made many more compositional contributions than the vast majority of drummers in the vast majority of bands. Regardless, that's a completely irrelevant thing to get hung up about when reading my post.
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The only good thing about MP's lack of practice and laziness is that he will never reach Lars Ulrich's level.
I will not be eager to listen to the next record, to be honest. It will get more technical, sure, but as time have shown us their records are getting more predictable and less enthusiastic. Not even Myung coming out of his cage did anything remarkable in ADTOE. :(
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How the fuck can ADTOE be considered as less enthusiastic than SC or even Black Clouds?
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The only good thing about MP's lack of practice and laziness is that he will never reach Lars Ulrich's level.
I will not be eager to listen to the next record, to be honest. It will get more technical, sure, but as time have shown us their records are getting more predictable and less enthusiastic. Not even Myung coming out of his cage did anything remarkable in ADTOE. :(
Emin, you've been warned before about bashing the band/album. Quit trolling threads or you're going to be asked to leave. Final warning.
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It's kinda funny for me to see somebody questioning MP drumming and could he play ADTOE. I really think that it would be no problem for him. As for writing drum parts of ADOTE, I also don't see any problems there for MP either. AFAIK JP said he wrote drum parts for the whole album and then gave them to MM to develop them and blend with rest of the music, but it's JP's work in essence. I'm not trying to say MM is worse in anyway than MP but to question MP like this is kinda silly. Dream Theater is what it is today because all of them in band and than includes MP, and not to mention how many awards he got in all those years drumming for DT.
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It's kinda funny for me to see somebody questioning MP drumming and could he play ADTOE. I really think that it would be no problem for him. As for writing drum parts of ADOTE, I also don't see any problems there for MP either. AFAIK JP said he wrote drum parts for the whole album and then gave them to MM to develop them and blend with rest of the music, but it's JP's work in essence. I'm not trying to say MM is worse in anyway than MP but to question MP like this is kinda silly. Dream Theater is what it is today because all of them in band and than includes MP, and not to mention how many awards he got in all those years drumming for DT.
OK
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Yeah and also MP's not that good with double bass, unlike MM who does crazy stuff on the album.
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What??? Have I missed something? Seems to me that MP can do just about anything with double bass. And for proof, I give you Beyond this Life and The Glass Prison. There's some pretty sick double bass parts in there.
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In studio, it obviously sounds perfect. However, some of his double bass live performances were sloppy.
Not taking anything from MP himself, for I think he's a great drummer of course. It's just funny that the criticism he gets as a drummer, are things Portnoy acknowledges himself. He's very, very talented; but I can't help but notice and point that his so mentioned lack of practice shows itself from time to time in his live performances.
Take A Nightmare to Remember, for example. I've yet to hear a live performance of the song where the double bass parts are played flawlessly.
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Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.
Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.
What makes you think MP wouldn't have come up with that? I think we all agree that MP got lazy over the last 3 or 4 albums but on prior albums and also on his side projects he played some amazing beats.
Because MM's mentality when walking in to record was totally different than what we've witnessed from MP over the past few albums. MM spoke of being a support to allow the other musicians to shine. Can you honestly say that MP would go into the studio thinking "Hey, how can I let everyone else get some spotlight?"
Now THAT's something MP definitely couldn't do. I'm surprised he could get his head through the door to get into the recording studio in the first place. Just because there are certain things MP can't do that MM can, is no takeaway on MP's talent. But just because MP was always playing fast and beating the kit to death doesn't make it "harder". Just look at MM's Pearl Extravaganza pt2 video on the forum. It doesn't sound all that crazy at all but he's playing 2 distinct time signatures through mosty of it. that IS crazy. MP couldn't do that IMO. Sorry. I love MP's playing, but MM is definitely a serious upgrade.
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MP wrote Burning My Soul. While I'm not a huge fan of the song, it really isn't bad.
I think the discussion of valuable forum server space (more obscure pics plz). But, while that's just my opinion, i can't dictate what happens on here.
I think the sytilistic(?) approach is the fairest and most accurate answer. It isn't a knock on either drummer.
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Though MP sometimes was sloppy with his double bass work live, i also think that MM plays "too soft" on the double bass and it does sound a bit weak compared to MP. I've noticed this both live and in some live footage.
Also, i don't like MM's hihat sound, its not so defined and it never sounds completely closed. It may have to do with the brand or type of hihats he uses, but its not as tight as MP's.
But i think we can all agree that MM is much more advanced than MP technically, some of his polyrythmic playing is absolutely sick and probably MP would be unable to come up with that kind of stuff.
So it's a mixed bag for me so far, but i really like MM's use of dynamics and the fact that he plays closely to the original tempo of the songs live.
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They are 2 very different drummers where MP is more of a rock/ metal who listened to Bonham, Peart, etc where MM learned the more technique centered side of drumming it doesn't make either one better then the other and its senseless to argue over it. However, it does effect where the bulk of your playing comes from on the kit. MM's limb independence and familiarity with jazz and other styles of music make him much more versatile to any drumming situation.
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Though MP sometimes was sloppy with his double bass work live, i also think that MM plays "too soft" on the double bass and it does sound a bit weak compared to MP. I've noticed this both live and in some live footage.
Also, i don't like MM's hihat sound, its not so defined and it never sounds completely closed. It may have to do with the brand or type of hihats he uses, but its not as tight as MP's.
But i think we can all agree that MM is much more advanced than MP technically, some of his polyrythmic playing is absolutely sick and probably MP would be unable to come up with that kind of stuff.
So it's a mixed bag for me so far, but i really like MM's use of dynamics and the fact that he plays closely to the original tempo of the songs live.
The double bass thing is bullshit. MP's double bass was always mixed waaaaay too loud.
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As a drummer who uses a symmetrical setup, i can say that it really does inspire different types of grooves and fills. All the symmetrical drummers ive seen tend more towards "linear" fills as opposed to the traditional, (as Gavin Harrison puts it) "badada badada badada bosh!" type of fills that are easier to do on a standard, descending, dominant hand dependent setup. So i don't think they could have done it without Mangini. Portnoy and Mangini are programmed totally different; they are from two totally different schools of thought.
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The double bass thing is bullshit. MP's double bass was always mixed waaaaay too loud.
This could also be the answer, i dont know. There are some videos that show MM's footwork and it seems "soft" sometimes. For example this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJnDrNMXt5M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJnDrNMXt5M)
I also thought about the knee surgery he has mentioned in some interviews and he said that he changed his technique, but as you said it might be down to the mix.
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It's kinda funny for me to see somebody questioning MP drumming and could he play ADTOE. I really think that it would be no problem for him. As for writing drum parts of ADOTE, I also don't see any problems there for MP either. AFAIK JP said he wrote drum parts for the whole album and then gave them to MM to develop them and blend with rest of the music, but it's JP's work in essence. I'm not trying to say MM is worse in anyway than MP but to question MP like this is kinda silly. Dream Theater is what it is today because all of them in band and than includes MP, and not to mention how many awards he got in all those years drumming for DT.
OK
That's what I like here. You can have same opinion as the rest of the forum or the wrong one :D
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It's kinda funny for me to see somebody questioning MP drumming and could he play ADTOE. I really think that it would be no problem for him. As for writing drum parts of ADOTE, I also don't see any problems there for MP either. AFAIK JP said he wrote drum parts for the whole album and then gave them to MM to develop them and blend with rest of the music, but it's JP's work in essence. I'm not trying to say MM is worse in anyway than MP but to question MP like this is kinda silly. Dream Theater is what it is today because all of them in band and than includes MP, and not to mention how many awards he got in all those years drumming for DT.
OK
That's what I like here. You can have same opinion as the rest of the forum or the wrong one :D
OK
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It's kinda funny for me to see somebody questioning MP drumming and could he play ADTOE. I really think that it would be no problem for him. As for writing drum parts of ADOTE, I also don't see any problems there for MP either. AFAIK JP said he wrote drum parts for the whole album and then gave them to MM to develop them and blend with rest of the music, but it's JP's work in essence. I'm not trying to say MM is worse in anyway than MP but to question MP like this is kinda silly. Dream Theater is what it is today because all of them in band and than includes MP, and not to mention how many awards he got in all those years drumming for DT.
OK
That's what I like here. You can have same opinion as the rest of the forum or the wrong one :D
:biggrin: