Red - Feed The Machine vs. DT - BMU, BMD

[MarkFitDT]

didnt Metallica also plagiarise part of This Dying Soul when they were writing Blackened?

[ResultsMayVary]

i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore

what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.

Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".

at least they don't copy

Where is this 'copying' that you are referring to?

[johncal]

Yes, Metalica is WAY more special

[gentaishinigami]

I saw this earlier while looking around on Youtube at a couple of Lars videos (don't ask  ), and what this person has done to their "Lars Auditions for DT" video is just plain ignorant.  I mean, I respect that the uploader "made" the video as much as someone can using a bunch of spliced copyrighted clips, and that they have the right to an opinion and to do whatever they want to their video, but this person is just clueless!  They force an overlay over the entire screen using caps on key words like it's something written by MP, to emphasize just how badly DT has plagiarized RED, and how EVERYONE MUST SEE IT NAO!!! wording it to sound like DT plagiarized the entire album because of the spurious plagiarism argument against BMU;BMD.  I mean, honestly, he/she claims, I quote, "The Introduction, Pre-Chorus, Chorus, and Verses sound identical."  I'll give you the similarities in the intro and verse (though light-years from identical), but to say that the chorus sounds AT ALL identical is just straight up lying, and just shows how desperate they are to try and make this accusation true regardless of the reality.  It just annoys me because this video has had 2/3 the traffic part one of "The Spirit Carries On" documentary has had.  That's quite a bit of people that could potentially see this drivel (most of those were from before this drama and he added the overlay, but having Lars in it guarantees a good bit of traffic over time I'm sure).  *head>desk*

A lot of people don't seem to understand what actual plagiarism (especially something labeled as identical) sounds like.  The Ghostbusters theme (Ray Parker Jr.) ripping off Huey Lewis' "I Want a New Drug" (and both seem to have ripped off M's - Pop Muzik  ) or Beach Boy's "Surfin' USA" ripping off Chuck Berry's "Sweet Little Sixteen" (man, this one copies the music, the vocal melodies and even basically goes thesaurus on half the lyrics!) are just a couple of examples of plagiarism off the top of my head. 

*vent off*

Update: As of 2011-12-22 it seems the uploader has removed the overlay from the "Lars Auditions" video, and removed the RED vs DT video.  The RED vs DT video is back up by another account, no idea if it's the same owner, but regardless the stupid stuff and dramatics seem to be gone and it is simply A/Bing the songs and letting the listener decide as it should have originally.  So, kudos to the uploader for taking all of the immature stuff down, and (assuming they re-upped it on another account of theirs and it wasn't someone else) for presenting the video with some class!   

[chrisbDTM]

i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore

what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.

Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".

at least they don't copy

Where is this 'copying' that you are referring to?

id love to hear the answer but if you look at his posts he's either a bad troll, or mad mp fanboy

[BlobVanDam]

I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.

As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.

That "condition" is known as bias.

[champbassist]

You want plagiarism? I'll give you plagiarism.

Compare this (released in '95):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr1AfObw5fI

with The Ytse Jam (you can hear it in the first few seconds itself).

This is plagiarism. Not BMU, BMD.

Also not plagiarism.

I'm not entirely sure that, if this (the initial riff) is not a ripoff, then what is. The only thing that separates the two riffs is that the German band couldn't play it in the twisted time sigs as DT, so they converted it into something easier for them

[theseoafs]

I'm not entirely sure that, if this (the initial riff) is not a ripoff, then what is. The only thing that separates the two riffs (even the keys are same) is that the German band couldn't play it in the twisted time sigs as DT, so they converted it into something easier for them

Far more than that separates the two riffs. It's not merely the Ytse Jam riff put into 4/4, if that's what you're suggesting. What similarities there are kind of fall away after a few beats anyway.

[gmillerdrake]

I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.

As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.

That "condition" is known as bias.

Yikes! You're probably right...I was hoping it was something far more involved and made me look like less of an ass....   I honestly have allowed these new 'feelings' I've developed for MP to influence my musical enjoyment....

[PetFish]

I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.

As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.

That "condition" is known as bias.

Yikes! You're probably right...I was hoping it was something far more involved and made me look like less of an ass....   I honestly have allowed these new 'feelings' I've developed for MP to influence my musical enjoyment....

You're  not an ass, and neither am I, it's perfectly fine to feel this way.

Up until now, I've bought everything MP has made even if I didn't like it or cared for it (OSI, Transatlantic, Avenged Sevenfold, certain Ytsejam stuff, etc) just so I could support him and his talent.  Now this is some sad fallout of his drama and his own undoing and I'm sure I'm not the only one doing this either.  I really have no desire to have anything to do with MP or anything he's attached to.  And at this point right now I hope MP never does anything with DT ever again and no matter how many things he does at the same time will matter to me either.

Sad but true.

[KevShmev]

  I honestly have allowed these new 'feelings' I've developed for MP to influence my musical enjoyment....

I can't say that, but I will say that the greatness of the new album has reminded me of how great this band is when everything is clicking just right, and it really reminds me of how much Portnoy's personality had become ingrained with the band's sound, whether it being influences from a certain kind of metal, his attempts at singing, or whatever.  Back in the 90s, before he took over complete control, they had a specific sound and vibe.  It is hard to put my finger on what exactly it all is, but I just know that when I listen to ADTOE, it has that kind of classic DT sound that was so awesome during the 90s.  I find that, as much as I have listened to the band in the last few months, aside from a few standout songs, I have barely listened to any of the material from 2003-2009. 

I am likely to not be as excited to check out any new projects that Portnoy is a part of, but I am not jumping ship on Transatlantic or Neal Morse's solo stuff. 

Speaking of Neal, Portnoy's tweets during the Neal Morse spring tour was a clear example of how everything has to be about him.  He tweeted several times about the show coming up that night, calling it the NM/MP extravaganza.  Uh, what?  I am pretty sure it was a Neal Morse show, not a Neal Morse and Mike Portnoy show, but naturally Portnoy had to give himself equal billing when tweeting about it, while not giving Randy George, who is just as much a part of Neal's studio band as Portnoy is, a mention.  Not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but it is just another example of how his mind works: it is always about him. 

[GunsOfThePatriots]

i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore

what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.

Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".

at least they don't copy

Where is this 'copying' that you are referring to?

id love to hear the answer but if you look at his posts he's either a bad troll, or mad mp fanboy

in this very song . what i don't understand is WHY you are Blind About IT . and also you (Some of u in this Forum)
keep Bragging about understanding Music . I Heard the 2 Songs and they are Copy/Paste for Me nothing will Change
it and secondly i am not a troll (WTF) nor an MP Fanboy . i just think that people here are too attached to the band to give objective opinion . my 2cents

[Bertielee]

i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore

what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.

Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".

at least they don't copy

Where is this 'copying' that you are referring to?

id love to hear the answer but if you look at his posts he's either a bad troll, or mad mp fanboy

in this very song . what i don't understand is WHY you are Blind About IT . and also you (Some of u in this Forum)
keep Bragging about understanding Music . I Heard the 2 Songs and they are Copy/Paste for Me nothing will Change
it and secondly i am not a troll (WTF) nor an MP Fanboy . i just think that people here are too attached to the band to give objective opinion . my 2cents

Yeah, and systematically bashing the band doen't make you an objective observer either. Frankly, we know your opinion on DT as of late, there's no need to try and force it down our throats. Sometimes, I wonder if you're not Thiago. Really...

B.Lee

[gmillerdrake]

...but I will say that the greatness of the new album has reminded me of how great this band is when everything is clicking just right, and it really reminds me of how much Portnoy's personality had become ingrained with the band's sound, whether it being influences from a certain kind of metal, his attempts at singing, or whatever.  Back in the 90s, before he took over complete control, they had a specific sound and vibe.  It is hard to put my finger on what exactly it all is, but I just know that when I listen to ADTOE, it has that kind of classic DT sound that was so awesome during the 90s.  I find that, as much as I have listened to the band in the last few months, aside from a few standout songs, I have barely listened to any of the material from 2003-2009. 

This is what I should have said Kev....sums up my thoughts perfectly. I know what you are talking about when you try and describe that certain 'something' that DT posessed back before the clutch of MP had a firm grasp on things. Again I agree that ADTOE tapped into that 'classic DT' vibe in such a positive way.....it was SO refreshing! I've been craving thier next album since about one week after ADTOE was released!

[kirksnosehair]

I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.

As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.

I've already decided that I am not buying any more releases that feature Mike Portnoy or that he is involved with in any way, shape or form until he makes a sincere public apology to Dream Theater and especially to John Petrucci for accusing them/him of plagiarism.

I will, however, continue to buy any and all releases and side projects put out by Dream Theater and its members.

[Perpetual Change]

i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore

what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.

Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".

at least they don't copy

Sorry, but this is where you, Thiago, and all the other posters desperate to accuse DT of plagiarizing themselves or others on this new album fail. This juxtaposition of Metallica as being "different" from DT really shines the high-beams over the weaknesses of your arguments.

Let's talk about Metallica. Their first 3 or 4 albums have songs which are nearly identical and overall structures which are painstakingly similar in more than one way. They are the epitome of a band which has copied itself over and over again; and yet the era when they did that is considered to be their Golden Age by pretty much every Metallica fan. Meanwhile, Dream Theater have one album which you can listen to it and think, "hey, that's kinda similar to Images and Words", and Mike and his supporters go nuts, not realizing the obvious contradiction.

Likewise, with this Red thing-- why is it a big deal, when Portnoy did the same thing with his influences? For example, when Mike Portnoy wrote lyrics on Train of Thought that were almost identical to Metallica lyrics and had them sung by James in his Hetfield voice over riffs that sounded like they were pulled straight from a thrash-era Metallica song, it was cool. Now Mike's supporters are flipping-out because JP seems to have written a song in the same style as another band he admires. Newflash: this is no different than what Mike has done for years with bands like Muse, Metallica, and Tool. BMUBMD is no more "Red" than Home was "Tool", Never Enough was "Muse", or This Dying Soul was "Metallica". Mike can write it off as inspiration all he wants, but if he or his supporters genuinely believe that then I'd warrant they have some serious problems with their amygladas.

Sorry if that seems tough, but it seems like MP and his supporters will resort to any level of nonsense just to throw another jab DT's way. Really sad. Looks like there are people out there who have no problem putting on the intellectual blinders if it means "The Man" might quote their posts or "like" them on Facebook. 

 

[7StringedBeast]

Yeah that vocal line in This Dying Soul is wayyyyy more similar to Blackened than this Red song to BMUBMD.  I mean way closer.

[nikatapi]

Sorry if that seems tough, but it seems like MP and his supporters will resort to any level of nonsense just to throw another jab DT's way. Really sad. Looks like there are people out there who have no problem putting on the intellectual blinders if it means "The Man" might quote their posts or "like" them on Facebook. 

I have to completely agree with this. Well said.

[BlobVanDam]

Likewise, with this Red thing-- why is it a big deal, when Portnoy did the same thing with his influences? For example, when Mike Portnoy wrote lyrics on Train of Thought that were almost identical to Metallica lyrics and had them sung by James in his Hetfield voice over riffs that sounded like they were pulled straight from a thrash-era Metallica song, it was cool. Now Mike's supporters are flipping-out because JP seems to have written a song in the same style as another band he admires. Newflash: this is no different than what Mike has done for years with bands like Muse, Metallica, and Tool. BMUBMD is no more "Red" than Home was "Tool", Never Enough was "Muse", or This Dying Soul was "Metallica". Mike can write it off as inspiration all he wants, but if he or his supporters genuinely believe that then I'd warrant they have some serious problems with their amygladas.

Why is MP solely to blame for every one of DT's influences while he was in the band? Undeniably he was responsible for some of them, most likely some of the heavier ones you mentioned, but he wasn't a main songwriter, JP was/is. And it's obvious that any influence in this particular case is JP, which supports that it wasn't all MP in he past either.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending MP one bit here. If anything, I'm just defending DT's recent output. MP is being a hypocrite, and everyone here is right to call him on it. I don't hear that much influence here aside from a slightly similar feel, as I feel was the case with many of DT's past influences that I've had just as little problem with. I don't have a problem with DT drawing inspiration from music they enjoy. JP did nothing wrong here as far as I'm concerned. The only one at fault is MP.

As someone else so cleverly stated, the only difference between it being an influence and plagiarism seems to be whether MP was in the band.

[Rob24]

Likewise, with this Red thing-- why is it a big deal, when Portnoy did the same thing with his influences? For example, when Mike Portnoy wrote lyrics on Train of Thought that were almost identical to Metallica lyrics and had them sung by James in his Hetfield voice over riffs that sounded like they were pulled straight from a thrash-era Metallica song, it was cool. Now Mike's supporters are flipping-out because JP seems to have written a song in the same style as another band he admires. Newflash: this is no different than what Mike has done for years with bands like Muse, Metallica, and Tool. BMUBMD is no more "Red" than Home was "Tool", Never Enough was "Muse", or This Dying Soul was "Metallica". Mike can write it off as inspiration all he wants, but if he or his supporters genuinely believe that then I'd warrant they have some serious problems with their amygladas.

Why is MP solely to blame for every one of DT's influences while he was in the band? Undeniably he was responsible for some of them, most likely some of the heavier ones you mentioned, but he wasn't a main songwriter, JP was/is. And it's obvious that any influence in this particular case is JP, which supports that it wasn't all MP in he past either.

Well, MP wasn't a real songwriter, but I think that he was responsible for a big deal of the direction of the sound and thus the inspiration. Plus he stood behind what JP wrote and where he drew inspiration from. In this plagiarism debate he said that there is a difference between what they (even if mainly JP) did before and what they do now. I get what you're trying to say: Perpetual Change made it sound like MP was the only one who actually drew inspiration from other bands and I agree with you that this is not true; but it doesn't make a huge difference in what Perpetual Change wanted to underline.

[BlobVanDam]

Well, MP wasn't a real songwriter, but I think that he was responsible for a big deal of the direction of the sound and thus the inspiration. Plus he stood behind what JP wrote and where he drew inspiration from. In this plagiarism debate he said that there is a difference between what they (even if mainly JP) did before and what they do now.

As I said, I don't see a difference between what they did with this song, and when he was in the band. His defense of the difference was beyond weak. Neither one is close to plagiarism imo. And as I said, my point wasn't really to defend MP anyway.

[Rob24]

Well, MP wasn't a real songwriter, but I think that he was responsible for a big deal of the direction of the sound and thus the inspiration. Plus he stood behind what JP wrote and where he drew inspiration from. In this plagiarism debate he said that there is a difference between what they (even if mainly JP) did before and what they do now.

As I said, I don't see a difference between what they did with this song, and when he was in the band. His defense of the difference was beyond weak. Neither one is close to plagiarism imo. And as I said, my point wasn't really to defend MP anyway.

Did I make it sound like I thought your point was to defend MP? I read your post, no worries. 

[Kotowboy]

I've already decided that I am not buying any more releases that feature Mike Portnoy or that he is involved with in any way, shape or form until he makes a sincere public apology to Dream Theater and especially to John Petrucci for accusing them/him of plagiarism.

I will, however, continue to buy any and all releases and side projects put out by Dream Theater and its members.

My exact reaction when my friend texted me Portnoy had quit Dream Theater was :  Meh...

[kirksnosehair]

I've already decided that I am not buying any more releases that feature Mike Portnoy or that he is involved with in any way, shape or form until he makes a sincere public apology to Dream Theater and especially to John Petrucci for accusing them/him of plagiarism.

I will, however, continue to buy any and all releases and side projects put out by Dream Theater and its members.

My exact reaction when my friend texted me Portnoy had quit Dream Theater was :  Meh...

Well, I didn't really care much when he quit Dream Theater.  People quit bands all the time.  It's the way he's acted SINCE quitting Dream Theater and especially the slanderous accusation of plagiarism that bugs me.  As a published musician myself, I would be BEYOND pissed off if I were accused of plagiarizing someone's work.    I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater.    The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.

[bosk1]

You know Barry, now that you mention it, there is a part of Vikings that has a definite Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees) vibe to it.  I don't want to casually throw the "p" word out there, but I'm just sayin'...

[KevShmev]

  I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater.    The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.

That means 105 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106.

[tjanuranus]

those numbers are a bit generous Kev. Also go broncos.

[gmillerdrake]

You know Barry, now that you mention it, there is a part of Vikings that has a definite Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees) vibe to it.  I don't want to casually throw the "p" word out there, but I'm just sayin'...

Ironically placed in the section where the mother and daughter were trying to hide and "stay alive"......just look at the stars....the stars.....the stars.......

[bosk1]

You know Barry, now that you mention it, there is a part of Vikings that has a definite Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees) vibe to it.  I don't want to casually throw the "p" word out there, but I'm just sayin'...

Ironically placed in the section where the mother and daughter were trying to hide and "stay alive"......just look at the stars....the stars.....the stars.......

I KNOW, RIGHT?!

[chrisbDTM]

the people buying AM's cd's are DT/MP fans, Russell Allen SyX fans,and then some godsmack fans they pickup opening for them. he's treating his primary fan group well. oh wait..

[kirksnosehair]

You know Barry, now that you mention it, there is a part of Vikings that has a definite Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees) vibe to it.  I don't want to casually throw the "p" word out there, but I'm just sayin'...

Ironically placed in the section where the mother and daughter were trying to hide and "stay alive"......just look at the stars....the stars.....the stars.......

I KNOW, RIGHT?!

[Mladen]

  I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater.    The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.

That means 105 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106.

What about Flying colors? I think that the so-called mixture of U2, The Beatles and Yes might really work for a lot of fans. Also, Neal Morse is a part of it. 

[kirksnosehair]

  I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater.    The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.

That means 105 104 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106 105.

Never intended to buy it anyway. 

[Zydar]

  I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater.    The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.

That means 105 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106.

What about Flying colors? I think that the so-called mixture of U2, The Beatles and Yes might really work for a lot of fans. Also, Neal Morse is a part of it. 

That's the only upcoming MP project I'm even slightly interested in.

[MarkFitDT]

  I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater.    The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.

That means 105 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106.

What about Flying colors? I think that the so-called mixture of U2, The Beatles and Yes might really work for a lot of fans. Also, Neal Morse is a part of it. 

That's the only upcoming MP project I'm even slightly interested in.

me too, the small amount of Adrenaline Mob that I could stomach was truly cliche ridden and dreadful.