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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: olliemedsy on December 14, 2011, 06:05:04 PM
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Discuss:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D4y3xPe6iVU#!
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Wow that one is :omg:
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Build Me Up, Break Me down is better :metal
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I guess it's no coincidence that this band's album was JP's favorite album this year.
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Build Me Up, Break Me down is better :metal
I disagree.
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Build Me Up, Break Me down is better :metal
I disagree.
I had a feeling you would. :lol
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Friends?
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Decent show.
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I see.
(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/other/jackagain.gif)
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That. Is. Amazing.
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(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/other/Jack.gif)
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Now I'm just starting to get worried.
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(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/other/Jack3.gif)
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Damnit..
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welp... that's interesting
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(https://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i238/hefdaddy42/funny/sammy.jpg)
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Badass.
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Holy shit, John.
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Holy shit, John.
Yeah, that was kind of my initial thought as well.
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Uh...damn. DT, please stop being so heavily influenced by other songs, because it's becoming really disappointing. This is like the 30th instance of this.
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Wow.
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At least they sound better than Muse.
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Fuck, I loved that song. The resemblance is there and very clear, but damn I'm checking out this CD as soon as I can.
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At least they sound better than Muse.
lol...
To each his own I guess.
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Hahaha
I don't agree with you
hahaha
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Fuck, I loved that song. The resemblance is there and very clear, but damn I'm checking out this CD as soon as I can.
This. That song just kicked my ass. :metal
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Meh, I don't really like C-rock so I'm not loving it.
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Build Me Up, Break Me down is better :metal
This.
I'm guessing by the thread title that this supposedly sounds similar to BMUBMD? Aside from some structural similarities, they're nothing alike.
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Wait a minute, I thought BMU,BMD sounded like Surrounded. Are we now supposed to believe that Red ripped off DT, and then DT ripped off Red ripping off DT? Can someone please get a hold of Thiago for confirmation. :lol
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I like Red's first CD.
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Hahaha
I don't agree with you
hahaha
That's ok man, no worries. :tup
This.
I'm guessing by the thread title that this supposedly sounds similar to BMUBMD? Aside from some structural similarities, they're nothing alike.
I dunno, the intro + first verse section is incredibly similar. Both in structure and sound. But yeah, the rest I agree sounds quite different.
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BMUBMD has more feel than this. Good stuff though.
Is there some industrial elements in this music? I kinda like it.
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Interesting similarities.
The songs are very similar, actually.
It's obvious which one is better, though. :metal
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Oh wow... :-[
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And here we are again!
B.Lee
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What a killer song. Seriously, this kicks the shit out of BMU, BMD.
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Oh god !! talking about a new beginning .
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What a killer song. Seriously, this kicks the shit out of BMU, BMD.
In your opinion and given the opinion you have of ADToE as a whole, it comes as no surprise...
B.Lee
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What a killer song. Seriously, this kicks the shit out of BMU, BMD.
In your opinion and given the opinion you have of ADToE as a whole, it comes as no surprise...
B.Lee
Yeah, it's totally my opinion, you seem somewhat offended by my comment?
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What a killer song. Seriously, this kicks the shit out of BMU, BMD.
In your opinion and given the opinion you have of ADToE as a whole, it comes as no surprise...
B.Lee
Yeah, it's totally my opinion, you seem somewhat offended by my comment?
I'm in no way offended by your comment : I don't find ADToE (or BMU BMD for that matter) to be the be all-end all of music. I think it's a good album, with great moments and that's it. No, no, it's simply that I said I liked the album a couple of times while you say you didn't like it everytime you can, as if it hadn't been clear the first time (even if there, you only speak of BMU, BMD). I find that funny. Btw, when you say "this kicks the shit out of...", you make it sound universal, which it is not. But no offense at all! :tup
B.Lee
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That's 99% of how people get in fights over musical opinions while the mere mention of "in my opinion" or "I think" would completely make for a more civil debate.
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That's 99% of how people get in fights over musical opinions while the mere mention of "in my opinion" or "I think" would completely make for a more civil debate.
Yes, that's what I was hinting at. But I'm wise and too old to get into a fight because of diverging musical opinions. ;D
B.Lee
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Meh, I don't really like C-rock so I'm not loving it.
Just as a thought (not meaning to put you on the spot Super Dude)... I have never understood why someone would choose to dismiss a band/song, etc. simply because they are popular within the realms of the Christian Rock genre. I would dub that "judging a book by it's cover."
Without the inner fanboy getting in the way, I couldn't give a clear opinion on "which is better" though I don't really think that was the goal of this thread. But, I do see mild similarities in the Intro mix effects...that's about it.
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Meh, I don't really like C-rock so I'm not loving it.
Just as a thought (not meaning to put you on the spot Super Dude)... I have never understood why someone would choose to dismiss a band/song, etc. simply because they are popular within the realms of the Christian Rock genre. I would dub that "judging a book by it's cover."
Without the inner fanboy getting in the way, I couldn't give a clear opinion on "which is better" though I don't really think that was the goal of this thread. But, I do see mild similarities in the Intro mix effects...that's about it.
Not at all, but just to be clear, I actually am a big fan of P.O.D. (I don't have every album, but I love what I got). The reason I like them though is because they're such a departure from the usual; I don't feel like I'm listening to C-rock. Hell, even Flyleaf feels a little preachy to me.
I just find it annoying. I can't listen to obviously Jewish music either, I can only really tolerate what you might call "secular" music, like Israeli rock.
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At least they sound better than Muse.
They sound good definately, but better than muse? Is that CHERRY flavored crack rock your smoking? :facepalm:
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I hate Muse too.
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Haha Red have a song called Break Me Down
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Why isn't this in the DT section?
Anyway, this song is irrefutable proof that Thago Campus was wrong about JP re-writing Images and Words :biggrin:
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For all you people who write music, don't you ever get moments when a song completely pumps you up and inspires you to write some music and it ends up sounding just like the song you were inspired by?
Yeah, well there's nothing wrong with that ^^ at least it let me find out about a cool new band
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Meh, I don't really like C-rock so I'm not loving it.
Just as a thought (not meaning to put you on the spot Super Dude)... I have never understood why someone would choose to dismiss a band/song, etc. simply because they are popular within the realms of the Christian Rock genre. I would dub that "judging a book by it's cover."
Without the inner fanboy getting in the way, I couldn't give a clear opinion on "which is better" though I don't really think that was the goal of this thread. But, I do see mild similarities in the Intro mix effects...that's about it.
Not at all, but just to be clear, I actually am a big fan of P.O.D. (I don't have every album, but I love what I got). The reason I like them though is because they're such a departure from the usual; I don't feel like I'm listening to C-rock. Hell, even Flyleaf feels a little preachy to me.
I just find it annoying. I can't listen to obviously Jewish music either, I can only really tolerate what you might call "secular" music, like Israeli rock.
I agree with you 100%. Yeah, 'preachy' is a deterrent that is understandable. :tup
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Why isn't this in the DT section?
Anyway, this song is irrefutable proof that Thago Campus was wrong about JP re-writing Images and Words :biggrin:
Unless the process goes as such: Red ripped off I&W for latest album, JP influenced by Red's latest album... :neverusethis:
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Honestly, having defending JP vehemently numerous times, I'm starting to have my doubts. While I don't expect glaring originality from a heavy-metal guitarists who has already put out 10+ albums, all this stuff we've heard about over the years is starting to become less and less avoidable.
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Typical Corporate Rock..sounds like a million other bands out there ...
Record label exec...He who's that popular rock band right now?
P&R guy...you mean band "x"?
Record Label exec.... yea thats them...go sign every other band that sounds just like them
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In my opinion both songs are completely forgettable.
I hate Muse too.
Also that ^^
PS: wkiml, you have THE best avatar.
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Cool story, bro
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My post a few days ago in an other thread:
Anyone else here noticed, that Red's Until We Have Faces has really similar guitar riffs than ADTOE? (compare Feed The Machine and BMU,BMD)
I wonder if this was a big influence to JP during the writing.
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Since I actually care about lyrics for the most part I can't get into Christian rock.
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"Check out the first song on JP's fav album of the year....
WOW, the arrangenent and orchestration sounds awfully familiar!!
Surely it must be an intentional "nugget" for the fans...
It couldn't possibly be blatant formula plagiarism now could it...??
I just have to laugh.... : )"
Mike just chimed in with this on his forums, shows that he did at least listen to the second track of the album :P
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I myself have just heard this track, yeah there are some similar things there. Still different enough to not be considered a rip off and lets be honest Dream Theater have done this sort of thing quite a lot.
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It's really not /that/ similar, but yeah I see it. Until We Have Faces is actually a pretty good album, to be honest.
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"Check out the first song on JP's fav album of the year....
WOW, the arrangenent and orchestration sounds awfully familiar!!
Surely it must be an intentional "nugget" for the fans...
It couldn't possibly be blatant formula plagiarism now could it...??
I just have to laugh.... : )"
Guess who.... ::)
It would be really helpful for the rest of us if you actually said who instead of just posting an anonymous quote.
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"Check out the first song on JP's fav album of the year....
WOW, the arrangenent and orchestration sounds awfully familiar!!
Surely it must be an intentional "nugget" for the fans...
It couldn't possibly be blatant formula plagiarism now could it...??
I just have to laugh.... : )"
Guess who.... ::)
It would be really helpful for the rest of us if you actually said who instead of just posting an anonymous quote.
My apologies, thought it would have been obvious but I've went back and edited it to say who it was from.
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Funny how perspectives change. When Mike was in the band, this sort of thing was perfectly fine, and he would be all over anyone who publicly criticized. Now that he is out of the band, it's suddenly okay to mock and make plagiarism accusations. Interesting.
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This is all your fault, Bosk.
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Hey, all I do is enforce the rules, man. I told Mike if he got one more tat, he was out of the band. Nobody held a gun to his head and made him get that ink. I just do my job. Justice is blind.
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Hey, all I do is enforce the rules, man. I told Mike if he got one more tat, he was out of the band. Nobody held a gun to his head and made him get that ink. I just do my job. Justice is blind.
Typical Sith Lords. Always thinkin' they da man.
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Just when I thought things were settling down, MP says something like this. Why?
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So much for everyone getting along again lol.
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I'm so sick of the "similarities" people, mainly cause I don't understand how the fuck do they expect their "discovery" to change me.
I'm not just talking about this but all the previous stuff including the I&W stuff as well.
Is this information supposed to make me dislike the music? cause it doesn't.
And does MP get itchy whenever he regains some respect from the fans? does he have to brush it off every now and then? Bravo Mike you busted JP, fine work there.
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Nice response by a poster on MP.com:
*facepalm*
*Puts on Peruvian Skies, Never Enough, Prophets of War, intro to Octavarium, and intro to Root of All Evil for irony...
Ok, it's similar - does it really matter THAT much?
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I think I may have just made some enemies. Couldn't help it though.
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Haha, nicely put.
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I think I may have just made some enemies. Couldn't help it though.
I think I'm in love :heart
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Bosk FTW
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The dark blue names don't come with a suck up guarantee. Man could speak his mind.
All the other shades of blue and the green are behind ya bosk :lol
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MP, Jesus Christ.
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The dark blue names don't come with a suck up guarantee. Man could speak his mind.
All the other shades of blue and the green are behind ya bosk :lol
:lol It's not a "suck up" issue. It's just that I feel a certain amount of respect is due on the forum that has the band's name on it. That often means just taking the high road and not saying anything. And I still don't think it's my place to criticize, but I'm sorry--there's just a certain point where when you are aggressively being hypocritical in a public way...it's difficult to not point that out.
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Funny how perspectives change. When Mike was in the band, this sort of thing was perfectly fine, and he would be all over anyone who publicly criticized. Now that he is out of the band, it's suddenly okay to mock and make plagiarism accusations. Interesting.
This exactly.
To be honest it is getting old. If that is a quote from MP, well at this point I am starting to actually be sad for him. Dont get me wrong. I have followed Mike since 1988. It is sad that it has come to these stupid digs at this point. Sometimes Mike, the less said the better.
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From Portnoy: Hey...I'm not trying to start a war....and I am indeed totally in a happy place in my life and career...I'm just merely making an observation and posting openly on my own forum like I always have and always will...
If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it's ther choice and doing...not mine!
And PS - to defend music that I co-wrote/arranged (that were sited previously in this thread), there's a difference between "inspiration corner"/"coping a certain vibe" and blatantly re-writing an existing song or formula section by section...
Hey, I'm not mad...just merely sharing an observation as a listener...sorry, when I heard that Red song it immediately jumped out at me and was pretty obvious,.
Anyways, on a happier note, Happy Holidaze everyone!
Hope you all have a great 2012,
MP
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MP's comments are hilarious. I mean, geez, this happened when he was in the band too, when it was called "inspiration corner". And furthermore, Mike just finished forming what is the most unoriginal metal group most people have ever heard.
While the similarities between the songs are hard to ignore, t it's not plagiarism. It's unfortunate, and you would expect a little bit more from Petrucci, but if you look at cases where accusations of plagiarism have been carried out successfully you'll notice that this is a far cry from the norm.
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I mean - of course MP has the right to share his thoughts, frustrations, disappointments and opinions - but does he not realize that they can be quite offensive or even cruel?
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From Portnoy: Hey...I'm not trying to start a war....and I am indeed totally in a happy place in my life and career...I'm just merely making an observation and posting openly on my own forum like I always have and always will...
If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it's ther choice and doing...not mine!
And PS - to defend music that I co-wrote/arranged (that were sited previously in this thread), there's a difference between "inspiration corner"/"coping a certain vibe" and blatantly re-writing an existing song or formula section by section...
Hey, I'm not mad...just merely sharing an observation as a listener...sorry, when I heard that Red song it immediately jumped out at me and was pretty obvious,.
Anyways, on a happier note, Happy Holidaze everyone!
Hope you all have a great 2012,
MP
Newsflash: It doesn't matter whether he is in a happy place, whether he is mad, or whatever. The issue is that he, completely unsolicited, publicly accused a former band =member of plagiarism. And what's more, he did so for the same exact type of thing he has been a part of for years.
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Bosk,
asl? We've been agreeing on most posts today. Especially the "exception to the rule" thing over at PR. I think I'm in love.
You know what? I had never heard about Red before this, and thank God I did. They're actually a nice change of pace. JP nodding his appreciation to them? COOL! It added a different sound for Dream Theater and I fucking liked it.
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Irony MP. Its a bitch isnt it. ALL musicians, from the greatest all have influences and things that catch their ear. SHIT, how much have your favorite bands influnced you and your music. I think we all know who they are. It has been evident for the past 20 years. But you know what, IMHO, thats cool. I would be honored as a musician that I had influence and had another musician say, WOW, that shit is cool, maybe we can try something like that. Shit, most musicians have been influenced from Beethoven to friggin Chick Corea.
I have the upmost respect for Mike for over 20+ years. I respect part of his most recent reply and am happy for him that he is in a good place personally. Truthfully I mean that. But again, sometimes, the less said the better. We ALL have opinions, and we all know what they say about opinions. But I have to be honest, at this point Mike, take the high road. To be honest, I have not heard the current members of DT, talking trash about MP's current projects (unless I have missed something). Current members of DT for the most part have not taken digs at MP. At least on public forums. Again Mike, I have had the UPMOST RESPECT for you, but I gotta be honest, you said you have moved on, and for that I wish you the best. But stop it with the digs. Its blatant and obvious.
Happy Hollidaze!
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lolMP. It's the gift that just keeps on giving, apparently. He really, really, really needs to overlook how he approaches these comments that he likes to make.
There is this thing about 'drama' that I've noticed (which includes the 13-18 year old kids on facebook/other social sites), is that the people who want the drama to stop are usually the ones starting it. MP is clearly starting drama here and then goes to say how he's not here to start drama and people should leave it be, or w/e. Come on, MP.
And then we get a comment about not being able to handle the truth. Really?
My respect for MP is non-existent right now. I thought it couldn't go any lower after the I&W situation, but here we are and he made it happen. Cool, I guess.
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To be honest, I have not heard the current members of DT, talking trash about MP's current projects (unless I have missed something). Current members of DT for the most part have not taken digs at MP. At least on public forums.
I seem to recall that JR actually praised the Adrenaline Mob EP in an interview, though I unfortunately can't remember exactly which interview that was done in.
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RVM, I think you've inadvertently hit the nail on the head there. Right now, I'm getting the idea that very few people actually read MP's post not looking to find some kind of sport therein. His is becoming to the prog/metal communities what people like Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump are to the Colbert Report.
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I seem to recall that JR actually praised the Adrenaline Mob EP in an interview, though I unfortunately can't remember exactly which interview that was done in.
Here you go
https://lithiummagazine.com/interview-jordan-rudess-dream-theater-october-7th-2011 (https://lithiummagazine.com/interview-jordan-rudess-dream-theater-october-7th-2011)
We wrapped up talking about other new releases that had been good this year. Opeth and Mastodon came up, and then Rudess started talking about Portnoy’s Adrenaline Mob material and how much he enjoyed it, suggesting that I check their material out.
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Like I previously said, I have been a HUGE MP guy since 1988. I have had the upmost respect for Mike and for the most part have given him the benifit of the doubt up until a few months ago. I get it Mike, but let it go. You are actually doing more harm to yourself by taking digs (whether justified or not). Again, I am happy for you that you are in a good place and wish you the best. But come on now, stop with the digs. As a musician (not even including that you are a former member of DT), I have not heard you say anything, well even positive about the current DT. I get it, DT was your baby. and whatever happened, well happened. You cant honestly say that you dont dig ADTOE. at least some of it. Shit, you worked with your "Brothers" for over 20 years. Collaborated with your brothers for over 20 years. And put out some MONSTEROUS music. and despite you not being there now. Well I for one will say, I STILL hear your influence on ADTOE. Things change. allbeit for better or worse. Thats life. You are better than the digs Mike.
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I seem to recall that JR actually praised the Adrenaline Mob EP in an interview, though I unfortunately can't remember exactly which interview that was done in.
Here you go
https://lithiummagazine.com/interview-jordan-rudess-dream-theater-october-7th-2011 (https://lithiummagazine.com/interview-jordan-rudess-dream-theater-october-7th-2011)
We wrapped up talking about other new releases that had been good this year. Opeth and Mastodon came up, and then Rudess started talking about Portnoy’s Adrenaline Mob material and how much he enjoyed it, suggesting that I check their material out.
Juuuust to satisfy my curiosity... are you Spiritus over at MP.com?
And on the subject at hand... I really wish I could get into Portnoy's head at the moment. I just want to understand what it is that makes him think that what he's about to say is definitely a good idea and will definitely not blow up in his face. I just cannot believe that he doesn't seem to expect the flak he gets for his posts. No one can be that short sighted.
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Nope. Images and Memory. And I will probably be banned there for what I said
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Nope. Images and Memory. And I will probably be banned there for what I said
Their loss. :yarr
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Nope. Images and Memory. And I will probably be banned there for what I said
Oh, yeah. That's it. Sorry, I got some posts mixed up there!
And that's another thing. MP almost certainly knows that what's being posted over there is being reported to several other fan forums... how can he not realize that deleting posts and banning members and generally trying to airbrush over any sort of come-back is only going to reflect EVEN MORE negatively on him? Again, I just can't believe that someone could be so oblivious to this.
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I seem to recall that JR actually praised the Adrenaline Mob EP in an interview, though I unfortunately can't remember exactly which interview that was done in.
Here you go
https://lithiummagazine.com/interview-jordan-rudess-dream-theater-october-7th-2011 (https://lithiummagazine.com/interview-jordan-rudess-dream-theater-october-7th-2011)
We wrapped up talking about other new releases that had been good this year. Opeth and Mastodon came up, and then Rudess started talking about Portnoy’s Adrenaline Mob material and how much he enjoyed it, suggesting that I check their material out.
Yeah, thank you! :tup
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Guys.... Blabbermouth... lol
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All I'm gonna say is this made me laugh.
Bosk,
asl?
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Guys.... Blabbermouth... lol
It was only a matter of time.
:neverusethis:
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I am tired. Gonna have to wait till tommorrow for for the next chapter of "As the Portnoy Turns" soap opera
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Guys.... Blabbermouth... lol
:facepalm:
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In all honesty, there's may be passing similarities in the riffing, tone and transitions into the chorus. But you can't condemn a man for being inspired by something. I'd hardly call it plagiarism.
And MP...I just...there's nothing to say. I'm at the point where I'm just gonna forget about the guy and ignore him.
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Congrats, MP. You managed give the "BMUBMD" story a quick backseat and now the real news is about yourself unprofessionally and unnecessarily, in my opinion, taking a dig at your former bandmates once again. Sheesh. ::)
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Congrats, MP. You managed give the "BMUBMD" story a quick backseat and now the real news is about yourself unprofessionally and unnecessarily, in my opinion, taking a dig at your former bandmates once again. Sheesh. ::)
Honestly, seeing how MP's treated his ex-band members over the last year has completely flipped how I look at DT history. We always got the story about Charlie Dominici, David Prater, Kevin Moore, Derek Sherinian, the Record Label, Geoff Tate, and others straight from MP. Now, I've really started reconsidering all of that. Seeing how MP's been completely wrong and out-of-line when he talks about his former band-mates has definitely got me thinking that maybe there was something more to all of the above situations.
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Basically, MP's comments make it look like he is trying to embarrass DT and turn people against them. It's disgusting, IMO.
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Just wow.
I learned my lesson about expressing my (perfectly valid/not glowing) opinions re: the I & W structural similarities, so my only comment with this one will be "just wow."
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Just wow.
I learned my lesson about expressing my (perfectly valid/not glowing) opinions re: the I & W structural similarities, so my only comment with this one will be "just wow."
Um, weren't you saying it was structurally identical to "Surrounded" or something then? :\ Honestly, this "finding" just proves how bogus Thiago was.
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Ok i've listened to this song a few times now. The beginning is similar but after that i don't hear it that much at all. Sounds like he was way into this album and was inspired by it, this happens ALL the time. Maybe the beginning was to close to the other song and that is the fault but it's not a big deal to me. Let's not forget the muse stuff and pink floyd, metallica, etc.
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Just wow.
I learned my lesson about expressing my (perfectly valid/not glowing) opinions re: the I & W structural similarities, so my only comment with this one will be "just wow."
Um, weren't you saying it was structurally identical to "Surrounded" or something then? :\ Honestly, this "finding" just proves how bogus Thiago was.
No, actually, I specifically said I didn't buy into that one. We don't need to re-litigate that. But as usual people didn't read my posts :yarr
It just seems that being disappointed as a fan over these fiascos isn't allowed on their message board. Well, it's allowed, but not taken kindly to at all.
I'm a huge Van Halen fan, but I think it's BS that they pipe in taped backing vocals and rhythm guitars for their last two tours. I'm a huge Dream Theater fan, but I think it's BS that they are...stretching what "original" means in this new "original" album, IN MY OPINION!!!!!!, to say the least...
To be extra, extra clear since my posts are continuously misinterpreted (or not read at all) - I love Dream Theater and Mike Mangini's addition, but I'm really disappointed by the I & W thing and now this. I'm not saying they suck. I am saying they are better than this kind of thing in my opinion...and to be extra fair about it, MP is better than this as well.
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Congrats, MP. You managed give the "BMUBMD" story a quick backseat and now the real news is about yourself unprofessionally and unnecessarily, in my opinion, taking a dig at your former bandmates once again. Sheesh. ::)
Honestly, seeing how MP's treated his ex-band members over the last year has completely flipped how I look at DT history. We always got the story about Charlie Dominici, David Prater, Kevin Moore, Derek Sherinian, the Record Label, Geoff Tate, and others straight from MP. Now, I've really started reconsidering all of that. Seeing how MP's been completely wrong and out-of-line when he talks about his former band-mates has definitely got me thinking that maybe there was something more to all of the above situations.
I've always thought that, and I gotta admit that it is nice to see that many others are finally coming around to seeing it as well.
Quite frankly, this latest cheap shot by Portnoy just shows that he is still extremely bitter. He can talk all he wants about how happy he is and blah, blah, blah, but actions speak louder than words.
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To be extra, extra clear since my posts are continuously misinterpreted (or not read at all) - I love Dream Theater and Mike Mangini's addition, but I'm really disappointed by the I & W thing and now this. I'm not saying they suck. I am saying they are better than this kind of thing in my opinion...and to be extra fair about it, MP is better than this as well.
I think he is demonstrating over and over that he really isn't. Never has been, and still isn't. Reading through the thread on his forum, he says something to the effect that this is how he always acted. How true! But now that it is not coming from the DT camp (which made many's knee-jerk reaction one of defending Portnoy and the band to a larger extent), and is actually being fired AT the DT camp, people are now seeing him for how he really is.
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To be extra, extra clear since my posts are continuously misinterpreted (or not read at all) - I love Dream Theater and Mike Mangini's addition, but I'm really disappointed by the I & W thing and now this. I'm not saying they suck. I am saying they are better than this kind of thing in my opinion...and to be extra fair about it, MP is better than this as well.
I think he is demonstrating over and over that he really isn't. Never has been, and still isn't. Reading through the thread on his forum, he says something to the effect that this is how he always acted. How true! But now that it is not coming from the DT camp (which made many's knee-jerk reaction one of defending Portnoy and the band to a larger extent), and is actually being fired AT the DT camp, people are now seeing him for how he really is.
I have to say, I'm equally disappointed with the DT camp and MP for different reasons (MM has no role in any of it, he's just an awesome hardworking drummer whose hard work paid off and I leave him out of all of this).
But what I tell myself about this, or my Van Halen example, or any time a band that I've loved for a very long time bums me out...they are better than this even if its been going on for a year or two or whatever. I have 20 years of great music from DT and one year of what I consider to be really lame artistic, um, choices I guess is the word (and one year of really classless sniping from MP).
It really bums me out because I consider both of these little quirks about ADToE to be cutting corners artistically. I'm convinced personally that they just wanted a record out quickly at any cost to shift the attention away from MP and towards their future. It's an understandable strategy if that's the case, and I'm always happy for new music from DT, but I think how they apparently chose to go about it cheapens just how good and capable I know they are. They could've made a great record without any of this. Maybe for once they would've had to take three years between albums instead of two, but that would've been understandable under the circumstances.
I'm still a fan, I'll still get the records and go to the shows, but I'm pretty disappointed.
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This is the Life is on for me right now and I am still convinced it's written about MP who desperately needs to learn to live life gracefully and not get caught in the maze.
ADToE is my favorite CD of my favorite band and I listen to it constantly. I have little doubt MP realizes how good it is and it probably kills him that he wasn't part of it; and, clearly now, never will be again.
Personally I don't think there's that much of a resemblance in these two particular tracks anyway.
"Memories will fade
Time races on
What will they say
After you're gone"
It's a shame it had to go this way but I am thrilled the result was such a wonderful CD.
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Hooch, I am not getting into another discussion on the I&W/ADTOE thing, but I'll just say that the similarity between this Red song and BMU BMD is no different than what DT has done a dozen times or so over the years. It is laughable that Portnoy could chalk the beginning of Octvarium up as merely part of an Inspiration Corner when that opening keyboard section (before the continuum comes in) is exactly like Floyd's Shine On...
BelichickFan, I have always thought This Is the Life was largely about Portnoy. The band can say otherwise, and it is probably smart to do to avoid the controversy that might arise from such an admission, but when you read the lyrics, it totally is.
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Hooch, I am not getting into another discussion on the I&W/ADTOE thing, but I'll just say that the similarity between this Red song and BMU BMD is no different than what DT has done a dozen times or so over the years. It is laughable that Portnoy could chalk the beginning of Octvarium up as merely part of an Inspiration Corner when that opening keyboard section (before the continuum comes in) is exactly like Floyd's Shine On...
BelichickFan, I have always thought This Is the Life was largely about Portnoy. The band can say otherwise, and it is probably smart to do to avoid the controversy that might arise from such an admission, but when you read the lyrics, it totally is.
I wasn't a fan of "Never Enough Stockholm Syndrome" either and I agree it's the pot calling the kettle black. I have no clue what he's talking about - he claims Never Enough took 'inspiration' whereas this new one is a 'ripoff'. Never Enough was a ripoff if I've ever heard one, both riffs and vocal stylings.
However, in light of the other "similarities" that have come up regarding this album, it's just too much for me.
It's not the end of the world though - DT lost the plot with me for one album out of...10? Life goes on. I'll hope for the best for the next go-round.
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nevermind
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I really didn't want to participate in these drama threads but here 'goes.
Anyone else notice the similarity between all this and the American Chopper drama? You have one side, Paul Jr./DT, just trying to go about their business doing what they do and taking the high road by not saying anything bad about anyone.
Then you have Paul Sr./MP taking any and every opportunity to rip on the others and talk as much shit as possible. It's classless and tasteless and it makes me so sad to see the one side always trying to destroy the other side for no real reason. It's also childish and pathetic and blah blah blah.
Dunno why MP can't just keep his mouth shut.
As it stands now I hope DT and MP NEVER do anything together again. Full live AA Suite? Bye. Best of Times live with JP's best solo ever? Bye. And there's only one person to blame for it all and that's MP.
What a fucking tragedy.
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BMUBMD is nothing like this song any more than any of the other claimed "rip offs" people have claimed over the years (with the rare legit exceptions). Basically, DT admitted to an inspiration corner, so people took it as reason to hunt for them even where they are only vague "similar vibes". This is no different imo.
MP shouldn't have said a thing, because there's no issue with this, just as there really wasn't while he was in the band. What is it with drummers and out-of-line passive aggressive digs at DT lately? :biggrin:
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BMUBMD is nothing like this song any more than any of the other claimed "rip offs" people have claimed over the years (with the rare legit exceptions). Basically, DT admitted to an inspiration corner, so people took it as reason to hunt for them even where they are only vague "similar vibes". This is no different imo.
MP shouldn't have said a thing, because there's no issue with this, just as there really wasn't while he was in the band. What is it with drummers and out-of-line passive aggressive digs at DT lately? :biggrin:
All frustrated guys venting their resentment at not having what they wanted to have. And I will keep myself from saying what I currently think of Portnoy, don't want to be banned from here.
B.Lee
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MP shouldn't have said a thing, because there's no issue with this, just as there really wasn't while he was in the band. What is it with drummers and out-of-line passive aggressive digs at DT lately? :biggrin:
There was nothing "passive" about Marco's post earlier. He was very direct about his feelings toward the band, to say the least. The whole "passive aggressive digs" thing is Mike Portnoy's territory, and there's nothing "lately" about it.
Kev and Bellichick, I agree with you guys tremendously on This Is the Life. I have felt that ever since first hearing the song.
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Basically, DT admitted to an inspiration corner, so people took it as reason to hunt for them even where they are only vague "similar vibes".
Not true. I had noticed a bunch of these so-called similarities before I was even aware of DT's Inspiration Corner thingy. Assuming that people were looking for them is faulty. It might have been true for some, but not for many. I know that for me, many of them were far too obvious to not detect. And I never went in looking to hear something; some were just so obvious that it was like, "Hey, that part sounds like that part from that one song," or something like that.
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Basically, DT admitted to an inspiration corner, so people took it as reason to hunt for them even where they are only vague "similar vibes".
Not true. I had noticed a bunch of these so-called similarities before I was even aware of DT's Inspiration Corner thingy. Assuming that people were looking for them is faulty. It might have been true for some, but not for many. I know that for me, many of them were far too obvious to not detect. And I never went in looking to hear something; some were just so obvious that it was like, "Hey, that part sounds like that part from that one song," or something like that.
Compared to the percentage of claims of DT copying I've seen over the years, there are only a tiny percentage that are legitimate, including this one (and I'm not denying that there are the few blatant ones).
To me a "similar sort of feel" such as this is completely vague and insignificant, because most of the time there is no musical similarity at all (which again is the case here). I even recall one that you brought up recently that was little more than a similar and common analog keyboard sound.
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And frankly, had JP never even said he like Red's album, noone would have noticed : some people have too much time on their hands or must be really bored to go and look for the tiniest little analogy between such and such songs.
And btw, those kinds of posts give me a "Look what I've found, I'm a genius and DT are plagiarists" kind of vibe that's becoming stale, if not disgusting.
B.Lee
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I don't want to get into a big debate over the legitimacy of said borrowed stuff right now, but my point still stands that many did not go looking for stuff like that.
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And frankly, had JP never even said he like Red's album, noone would have noticed : some people have too much time on their hands or must be really bored to go and look for the tiniest little analogy between such and such songs.
And btw, those kinds of posts give me a "Look what I've found, I'm a genius and DT are plagiarists" kind of vibe that's becoming stale, if not disgusting.
B.Lee
I don't think anybody is claiming to be a genius for noticing the similarity between BMUBMD and Red's song. I'd never heard of Red until I saw JP's list so I checked them out and this was literally the first song I listened to and immediately thought of BMUBMD. The intro riff + first verse passages sound incredibly similar. It's not a tiny analogy. You are fooling yourself if you don't admit that the two sections are incredibly similar on first impression.
To add to this though, I think it's true that nobody would have noticed anything unless they were already a fan of both bands. I actually think it's good that JP put the album on his Top 10 list - makes it clear that he's not trying to hide it.
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And frankly, had JP never even said he like Red's album, noone would have noticed : some people have too much time on their hands or must be really bored to go and look for the tiniest little analogy between such and such songs.
And btw, those kinds of posts give me a "Look what I've found, I'm a genius and DT are plagiarists" kind of vibe that's becoming stale, if not disgusting.
B.Lee
I don't think anybody is claiming to be a genius for noticing the similarity between BMUBMD and Red's song. I'd never heard of Red until I saw JP's list so I checked them out and this was literally the first song I listened to and immediately thought of BMUBMD. The intro riff + first verse passages sound incredibly similar. It's not a tiny analogy. You are fooling yourself if you don't admit that the two sections are incredibly similar on first impression.
To add to this though, I think it's true that nobody would have noticed anything unless they were already a fan of both bands. I actually think it's good that JP put the album on his Top 10 list - makes it clear that he's not trying to hide it.
Where in my post did I say there were not similar parts? I'm just tired of the tendency some have to jump on every occasion to accuse DT of plagiarism, period.
B.Lee
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I don't think anybody is claiming to be a genius for noticing the similarity between BMUBMD and Red's song. I'd never heard of Red until I saw JP's list so I checked them out and this was literally the first song I listened to and immediately thought of BMUBMD. The intro riff + first verse passages sound incredibly similar. It's not a tiny analogy. You are fooling yourself if you don't admit that the two sections are incredibly similar on first impression.
I'm not fooling myself. They're only vaguely similar, far from incredibly similar.
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The songs are similar but MP is being a total dickhead here, very disappointing. I'm the first to say that ADTOE didn't really excite me like other DT albums do, but I never want to see Mike Portnoy back in this band. Please DT, get a live DVD out of this tour so I don't have to watch DT with MP.
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Funny how perspectives change. When Mike was in the band, this sort of thing was perfectly fine, and he would be all over anyone who publicly criticized. Now that he is out of the band, it's suddenly okay to mock and make plagiarism accusations. Interesting.
Exactly this.
I've been away from the forum ever since MP showed up trying to gain sympathy, 'cause I've kept myself from saying what I think of his current attitude towards DT, avoiding being kicked out. In any case, I think this speaks volumes of him. He wouldn't have a minimum of courtesy to say "Congrats to my old buddies in DT for that Grammy nomination", considering how he always claims DT is his baby and how he loves the other guys, but when he finally opens his mouth (types something), it is a sarcastic attack on the band, whilst aaaaalways stating that he has moved on and is happy.
I will always regard MP as a great drummer and I'll remain interested in his musical output (Adrenaline Mob didn't do it for me, though), but as a person, I'm really disappointed in him for this kind of attitude.
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I noticed that MP was on DTF yesterday, and then a few hours later posts about this, which was posted only a few hours before here on DTF. Just like how MP mentioned the IaW/ADTOE after it was posted on the forums, and both times posts as if it was something blatantly obvious he noticed himself.
What he's doing is just reposting a negative DT thread from here on his own forum. But linking a negative thread would be too obvious, so he just posts it without source as if it's something he noticed on his own to try and give it weight.
But let's consider that option. If he truly noticed these things himself, wouldn't he post his observations first when he apparently noticed them himself? Am I to believe that he didn't think much of ADTOE, but knew the song well enough to notice an at best vague similarity with a song that he would only have been aware of from going out of his way to listen to an album he only noticed from JP's favourite albums? Because if he knew the album on his own, he would have noticed the similarity at some point in the past several months, instead of posting it just hours after someone here "found" it, which was only shortly after JP mentioned the album. So there's no doubt he saw it from here. And that can only mean he is just reposting a negative thread from here to stir up negativity. Reposting an accusation of DT plagiarism and then accusing them of plagiarism yourself (without acknowledging where he got it, which is ironically plagiarism in itself) is not just "posting openly". It's posting negatively. If it was just posting openly, he'd be open enough to point out that he saw it here, and agreed with it. Then he claims that even though he didn't name the DT song, that the fact we knew what he was referring to was damning evidence. How convenient! Of course people knew what he was referring to, because they read it here beforehand just as he did.
I get that MP is a straight shooter, and I like that honesty to a degree, but if he was truly in a good place and had moved on, he could post about the good and the bad, instead of such strict emphasis on bad, and indiscriminately reposting every little negative thing he can about DT no matter how little credibility it has. Yet aside from negative news, DT is interestingly absent from everything MP posts. FYI - posting "It couldn't possibly be blatant formula plagiarism now could it...??" as a rhetorical question is a straight out accusation, not a mere question being posed innocently.
He does it on purpose knowing full well that bullshit tabloid Blabbermouth will sniff it out and repost it in an attempt to make DT look bad to the general public. It is intentional sabotage, how can it be anything else? If it was just honesty, he would be just as quick to comment on DT's successes, such as the Grammy nomination, or the success of ADTOE on Billboard, but those don't have a negative spin to draw on without being even more truly petty.
I don't blame the guy for being upset about the DT situation at all. It's justified. But his actions in response to it are totally not. Don't they say the best "revenge" is to live well? He's got a ton of new music coming out. Let that speak for itself, instead of continuing to burn bridges to the point where they look like the aftermath of the ADTOE cover.
Everyone knows that I am the first to defend MP when people are unfairly jumping to conclusions, but you can't defend his actions here, especially when he's trying to force another mountain out of a molehill.
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To me the obvious answer to MP's behaviour is that not only he is mad that "his baby" is doing better that ever without him, and even getting a Grammy nomination, but mostly that he is trying to get some publicity for AM and his future projects, since the musical output itself at the moment has excited very few people.
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This is the same thing along the lines of Never Enough, Peruvian Skies, Octavarium, The Root of All Evil, etc., as a MP forum user has already pointed out. Nothing to see here, except some questionable MP comments.
/thread
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This is awesome. I love BMU BMD. I like the Red song too. I've got another band to check out now - 3 more CDs to buy.
It's all :metal
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Yeah that was a completely unprovoked dick move by MP. I mean they weren't even mentioning the song similarities in that thread. Not only rude for a former band member, but he just totally derailed the thread... not cool.
I will say this though. The similarities are undeniable. While I won't like the song less or anything, you can be damn sure that every time I hear it I'm gonna laugh about this whole thing.
I honestly am surprised how the song got put out sounding so similar. I would have hoped he would have noticed and made a few changes... but then again Elaine ripped off a Ziggy by accident.
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Does Mike not realize he will get criticized when he says negative stuff like that. Does he not care about fan reaction? I mean he must because he then complains when he gets criticized. I mean the guy just doesn't learn his lesson. Having said that, I really don't care about any of this. I find it amusing to be honest.
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Nice detective work, BVD. ;) :tup :tup What you said is probably right on the money. It appears as if Portnoy really didn't learn a damn thing from the 12-step program and that writing the songs was merely grandstanding.
"Kindness - it's not that hard."
"I once thought it better to be right
But now I have finally seen the light
Sometimes you've got to be wrong
And learn from mistakes
I live with serenity now
Not self-righteous hate."
Yeah right.
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I've now had the chance to sleep on MP's most recent comments, and I'm still bothered. This is how I feel at this moment, right or wrong. If he feels the need to play the role of a villain and insert himself into other band's worlds to create negativity, then I can just as easily express my dislike of his villianist tendencies to the best of my ability. When MP does any New York meet-n-greets in the coming year or two, I will be there as a progressive metal fan loudly booing him. When he plays in New York with his new bands, I will be there loudly booing him at his hometown show as he walks into the venue. When a villian is crying out to be booed, I'll boo. I won't buy an MP ticket though. I refuse to support him. I've gone to events before just to single-handedly boo villians -- granted, they were sporting events. You want to be a villian, MP? You got it.
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Five Eight will have fun with this
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Reaaly, though, I hope everyone involved can :chill and go on making good music. More rounds of negativity won't benefit anyone.
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I just can't wait for MP to come in here, explain himself and post about how he's surprised about the level of hatred he's getting from posters on DTF. It's gonna be interesting.
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Only four pages in this thread? I saw this news over at Metallicabb where they posted the blabbermouth link, and I expected this to be a 20 page thread lol.
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Funny how perspectives change. When Mike was in the band, this sort of thing was perfectly fine, and he would be all over anyone who publicly criticized. Now that he is out of the band, it's suddenly okay to mock and make plagiarism accusations. Interesting.
Your response to him over there was masterful. :hefdaddy
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https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=167305
What I find interesting about this article is not the similarities, that's expected, what I find interesting is that BMU,BMD sounds just as similar to the Red song in the same way as DT songs have had similarities in the past, meanwhile Mike Portnoy was in the band with them during those songs, as he was largely responsible for those influential similarities, yet he always defended those songs. I don't understand why Portnoy is criticizing the band for doing the same things he himself was responsible for when he was in the band.
He claims this song sounds like a pure rip off, but in all honesty, it doesn't sound any more rip-offish then songs like Home, Solitary Shell, This Dying Soul, Never Enough, Forsaken, Octavarium, etc etc etc sounded, and he was all a part of those songs. I guess now that he's outside of the band, he really has an understanding of how fans feel about DT's music, and imo, he should apologize to the fans for all their criticisms, since now he's doing the exact same thing. He was always very against DT fanboy anger, yet he now is doing the same thing.
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mike portnoy LOL
(https://files.sharenator.com/he_mad_The_Ultimate_Graffiti_Guide-s352x300-95119-475.png)
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Well, we built MP up but now he just seems to be falling to pieces :yarr
I honestly thought his latest "truth"-bomb was a parody when I first read it. Ack, it's now at the stage where it's actually quite funny :corn
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I think he is probably still most upset that they didn't let him come back when he tried to change his mind months later.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v394/kevshmev/soccer.gif)
Dream Theater = the shooter
The ball = the message that they didn't want him back
Mike Portnoy = the goalie
:coolio
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And the "WAKE UPPPP" part is a rip off of Rage Against the Machine.
The song definitely heavily influenced BMUBMD.... a lot of it seems like direct copying... but it's not exactly the same and DT did bring other stuff to the table. I do agree that this song is better than BMUBMD.
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I get that MP is a straight shooter
Yeah, he's a straight shooter like Milli Vanilli are "good singers" :lol
Congrats, MP. You managed give the "BMUBMD" story a quick backseat and now the real news is about yourself unprofessionally and unnecessarily, in my opinion, taking a dig at your former bandmates once again. Sheesh. ::)
Honestly, seeing how MP's treated his ex-band members over the last year has completely flipped how I look at DT history. We always got the story about Charlie Dominici, David Prater, Kevin Moore, Derek Sherinian, the Record Label, Geoff Tate, and others straight from MP. Now, I've really started reconsidering all of that. Seeing how MP's been completely wrong and out-of-line when he talks about his former band-mates has definitely got me thinking that maybe there was something more to all of the above situations.
THIS
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Maybe team DT did this to see how Mike would react.....
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When MP does any New York meet-n-greets in the coming year or two, I will be there as a progressive metal fan loudly booing him. When he plays in New York with his new bands, I will be there loudly booing him at his hometown show as he walks into the venue.
If you do that, have someone videotape you and post it. j/k :smiley:
I get where you're coming from with being fed up. For me though, it isn't worth being upset with MP anymore. I made the break back when he clicked "like" on someone's post on his Facebook page saying that basicially "Mangini sucks" at playing DT songs at the concerts. At that point, I simply clicked "unlike" on his FB page, clicked "unfollow" on his Twitter page and moved contently along.
This latest incident does not surprise me. Sad to say, I kinda expected something like this since the Grammy nomination. I truly hoped it would not happen though. I thought maybe with all his projects going on and it being Christmas time and all, maybe he could keep things positive. Anyway, it's a shame to see this happen, but I guess the big winner here is probably Mangini. Once again, I'm made to appreciate what a positive influence he brought to DT.
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I've got to be honest, where I am at right now with this whole thing with Portnoy.......I am boycotting any releases he's involved with until or unless he issues a PUBLIC apology to Dream Theater for accusing them of plagiarism. That was beyond stupid.
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DT should not copy other bands. Or at least choose better bands to copy. BMU BMD is the worst song on ADTOE.
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Actually, Dream Theater as a whole are the big winners here. They have managed to not skip a beat since the switch, and are kicking more ass than they have in quite a while. And I love the fact that they repeatedly do not take the bait when Portnoy throws out one of this asinine digs every so often. In fact, if someone asked JP today about Portnoy's plagiarism crack, he'd probably laugh it off, mention how he still loves him as a brother, and then talk about how much he deadlifted this morning. :biggrin:
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Actually, Dream Theater as a whole are the big winners here. They have managed to not skip a beat since the switch, and are kicking more ass than they have in quite a while. And I love the fact that they repeatedly do not take the bait when Portnoy throws out one of this asinine digs every so often. In fact, if someone asked JP today about Portnoy's plagiarism crack, he'd probably laugh it off, mention how he still loves him as a brother, and then talk about how much he deadlifted this morning. :biggrin:
For the record, it was 550lbs, one handed while reading the Blabbermouth article on his iPhone in the other hand.
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I don't get what's so offensive about what MP said, no different than what most said.
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I don't get what's so offensive about what MP said, no different than what most said.
The way he said it and the fact that he brought it up in a thread that had nothing to do with it.
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In fact, if someone asked JP today about Portnoy's plagiarism crack, he'd probably laugh it off, mention how he still loves him as a brother, and then talk about how much he deadlifted this morning. :biggrin:
This is why we all love the guy. :hefdaddy
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I don't get what's so offensive about what MP said, no different than what most said.
The way he said it and the fact that he brought it up in a thread that had nothing to do with it.
This. He had to go and derail the thread and then blatantly accuse them of Plagiarism, even when DT did the same exact thing when MP was in the band.
See example such as Peruvian Skies, Octavarium, Never Enough, Solitary Shell, etc.
It was fine then, but now? No way man, that's plagiarism!!!!!
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I don't get what's so offensive about what MP said, no different than what most said.
The way he said it and the fact that he brought it up in a thread that had nothing to do with it.
This. He had to go and derail the thread and then blatantly accuse them of Plagiarism, even when DT did the same exact thing when MP was in the band.
See example such as Peruvian Skies, Octavarium, Never Enough, Solitary Shell, etc.
It was fine then, but now? No way man, that's plagiarism!!!!!
Exactly! I am one of the countless people who got into DT just because of MP's phenomenal drumming. I grew to almost adore the guy for being a virtuoso drummer, so fan friendly...so available and 'honest'. But after watching him ever SINCE HE CHOSE TO ABABNDON DREAM THEATER FOR APPARENT "GREENER GRASS" (sure that's an unfounded judgment and highly disputed and un-acknowledged reason by him) but we're not children here.....the P.C. answer to his departure may be a sliver of the reason but whatever.....anyway.....after watching the way he's treated DT over the past year I have been completely turned off by the man's actions.
I wish that instead of trying to bait JP and the gang into saying something by issuing statements like this he'd just come out and say what I believe is really on his mind and eats at him daily...he made a hasty decision to leave while enjoying temporary success with A7X. I get that touring with them and with Neal earlier in the year brought Mike some sort of clarity of what DT's relationships had evolved to, that part is understandable. What I don't get is the fact that you believed if you left DT would cease to exist and how them choosing to go on without you has apparently driven you to disparage any and every move or accolade they make or receive.
Mike...as evidenced in some threads here at the DTF I am aware you lurk around and probably read these comments so I want it to be clear I'm saying these things with full expectation that you will read them...I'd say them on your forum if they wouldn't be deleted 10 seconds later.
I respect your pursuit of happiness and can understand your reason to want to 'take a break and re-charge', it's understandable and in fact if you were to search your forum there would be multiple instances of me personally worrying about a DT breakup due to your insane write/record/tour schedule. But in learning that the rest of DT did not want to do so I don’t understand why you didn’t do what a lot of us who become disenfranchised with their jobs do…you suck it up and do your job. It's my belief that only after you realized they were ‘serious’ about continuing on without you and that you indeed had made the wrong decision that you petitioned to re-join the band months later. That is not a fault…mistakes are made by everyone, everyday. Where I fault you is that you is that it appears your pride will not allow you to admit it and in fact is perhaps driving you to say the things you say in the manner that you say them.
It just looks to me that you cannot allow DT to enjoy any type of success without your hand in it. ADTOE is a great album with great songs on it…in fact it’s an album that I know for a fact a lot of fans have wanted for years. Are all the fans pleased? Nope. You know that’s impossible. But if I had to arbitrarily throw a percentage out there I’d say that 88% of the fan are thrilled with ADTOE.
I would think that instead of making snide remarks like you did about the 'Red' song and BMU?BMD....that you'd be happy for the success of friends that you spent the better part of your life with regardless of whatever bridges that have been burned in the fallout of your ‘marriage’. I'm starting to believe that the fact they have been successful without your input is not possible for you to accept. Mike, for as rude and as inconsiderate as my post may come off to you I can honestly tell you that I write it with a heavy heart because for years I have looked up to you and I’m not even a musician. Your battle with alcoholism is still a pillar of strength for me to draw from as I battle mine, and no matter what is said and done you will always remain a world class drummer who I enjoy listening to. At this point I am just sorry that I had built you up so much in my heart and mind because watching how you in particular have handled ‘all’ of this has really left me a bit heartbroken.
Gary
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lol at Portnoy, the guy just keeps digging himself deeper and deeper into a hole with DT fans. I guess he doesn't care anymore and I also guess he forgot about any of the songs he wrote while in DT that sound like other bands... I mean this song does have a lot of similarities, but that doesn't mean its plagarism. Has MP just become an internet troll for DT? What a joke.
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Just when I thought things were settling down, MP says something like this. Why?
A need to be the center of controversy and attention? ::) Just a guess...
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He probably saw us lambasting Minneman and decided he missed it.
"sometimes(all the time) you have to be wrong and (never)learn from mistakes"
I feel like stating random nonsense about how blatantly obvious that Stargazer was a ripoff, but I feel the humor would be missed.
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I don't get what's so offensive about what MP said, no different than what most said.
The way he said it and the fact that he brought it up in a thread that had nothing to do with it.
This. He had to go and derail the thread and then blatantly accuse them of Plagiarism, even when DT did the same exact thing when MP was in the band.
See example such as Peruvian Skies, Octavarium, Never Enough, Solitary Shell, etc.
It was fine then, but now? No way man, that's plagiarism!!!!!
Exactly! I am one of the countless people who got into DT just because of MP's phenomenal drumming. I grew to almost adore the guy for being a virtuoso drummer, so fan friendly...so available and 'honest'. But after watching him ever SINCE HE CHOSE TO ABABNDON DREAM THEATER FOR APPARENT "GREENER GRASS" (sure that's an unfounded judgment and highly disputed and un-acknowledged reason by him) but we're not children here.....the P.C. answer to his departure may be a sliver of the reason but whatever.....anyway.....after watching the way he's treated DT over the past year I have been completely turned off by the man's actions.
I wish that instead of trying to bait JP and the gang into saying something by issuing statements like this he'd just come out and say what I believe is really on his mind and eats at him daily...he made a hasty decision to leave while enjoying temporary success with A7X. I get that touring with them and with Neal earlier in the year brought Mike some sort of clarity of what DT's relationships had evolved to, that part is understandable. What I don't get is the fact that you believed if you left DT would cease to exist and how them choosing to go on without you has apparently driven you to disparage any and every move or accolade they make or receive.
Mike...as evidenced in some threads here at the DTF I am aware you lurk around and probably read these comments so I want it to be clear I'm saying these things with full expectation that you will read them...I'd say them on your forum if they wouldn't be deleted 10 seconds later.
I respect your pursuit of happiness and can understand your reason to want to 'take a break and re-charge', it's understandable and in fact if you were to search your forum there would be multiple instances of me personally worrying about a DT breakup due to your insane write/record/tour schedule. But in learning that the rest of DT did not want to do so I don’t understand why you didn’t do what a lot of us who become disenfranchised with their jobs do…you suck it up and do your job. It's my belief that only after you realized they were ‘serious’ about continuing on without you and that you indeed had made the wrong decision that you petitioned to re-join the band months later. That is not a fault…mistakes are made by everyone, everyday. Where I fault you is that you is that it appears your pride will not allow you to admit it and in fact is perhaps driving you to say the things you say in the manner that you say them.
It just looks to me that you cannot allow DT to enjoy any type of success without your hand in it. ADTOE is a great album with great songs on it…in fact it’s an album that I know for a fact a lot of fans have wanted for years. Are all the fans pleased? Nope. You know that’s impossible. But if I had to arbitrarily throw a percentage out there I’d say that 88% of the fan are thrilled with ADTOE.
I would think that instead of making snide remarks like you did about the 'Red' song and BMU?BMD....that you'd be happy for the success of friends that you spent the better part of your life with regardless of whatever bridges that have been burned in the fallout of your ‘marriage’. I'm starting to believe that the fact they have been successful without your input is not possible for you to accept. Mike, for as rude and as inconsiderate as my post may come off to you I can honestly tell you that I write it with a heavy heart because for years I have looked up to you and I’m not even a musician. Your battle with alcoholism is still a pillar of strength for me to draw from as I battle mine, and no matter what is said and done you will always remain a world class drummer who I enjoy listening to. At this point I am just sorry that I had built you up so much in my heart and mind because watching how you in particular have handled ‘all’ of this has really left me a bit heartbroken.
Gary
Well said, Gary. You are/were obviously a much bigger fan of Portnoy the man (vs. the musician) than I was, so it has to be a bummer to see a guy you looked up to that much acting so petty and vindictive. And it is shocking that he cannot see how his words are affecting fans' opinions of him. Aside from the obvious hypocrisy of the plagiarism angle, he was always so overly defensive about people who dared criticize DT for anything, and he has now become what he hated for so long. And he doesn't even realize it.
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Interesting poll results in this thread (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2733727.aspx) on his forum.
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Interesting poll results in this thread (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2733727.aspx) on his forum.
THAT IS GLORIOUS! :rollin
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Interesting poll results in this thread (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2733727.aspx) on his forum.
If Neal Morse isn't involved in the 'Flying Colors' project, I wonder how that'd affect the results? But those are indeed interesting to say the least....maybe best described as 'revealing' rather than interesting.
From strictly a musical point of view....take 'A-Mob' for example....a complete waste of MP's talent IMO. I get it's fun and something he's always wanted to do and that's cool and all....but I liked the comparison I heard (forgot if it was here at the DTF or at MPs) it's like Neal Peart playing for AC/DC.
After I had made the long post I did in this thread I found the posts MP made over at his place and I still don't think he 'gets' how he's coming off. His explanation is that he is just 'being honest' like he has always been. The problem being (for me) is that in the past his 'honesty' was never spiked with that hint of malice that the comments towards DT seem to have. I'd pass it off as my own conspiratorital mind if it weren't for the abundant amount of people who are seeing and picking up on what I see and pick up on. It can't be coincedental.
BTW Barry....lots of folks at MP's place miss your presence. It's brought up quite a bit. You were a big part of that place and your absence is apparent. But, from the looks of things you've transitioned nicely to a much more 'understanding' home here.
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The problem being (for me) is that in the past his 'honesty' was never spiked with that hint of malice that the comments towards DT seem to have.
Oh, the malice has been evident before now! Link: https://www.metalhammer.co.uk/news/dream-theaters-portnoy-if-kevin-moore-hadnt-left-wed-have-broken-up/
I just think it didn't hit as close to home for most fans until now.
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Interesting poll results in this thread (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2733727.aspx) on his forum.
If Neal Morse isn't involved in the 'Flying Colors' project, I wonder how that'd affect the results? But those are indeed interesting to say the least....maybe best described as 'revealing' rather than interesting.
From strictly a musical point of view....take 'A-Mob' for example....a complete waste of MP's talent IMO. I get it's fun and something he's always wanted to do and that's cool and all....but I liked the comparison I heard (forgot if it was here at the DTF or at MPs) it's like Neal Peart playing for AC/DC.
After I had made the long post I did in this thread I found the posts MP made over at his place and I still don't think he 'gets' how he's coming off. His explanation is that he is just 'being honest' like he has always been. The problem being (for me) is that in the past his 'honesty' was never spiked with that hint of malice that the comments towards DT seem to have. I'd pass it off as my own conspiratorital mind if it weren't for the abundant amount of people who are seeing and picking up on what I see and pick up on. It can't be coincedental.
BTW Barry....lots of folks at MP's place miss your presence. It's brought up quite a bit. You were a big part of that place and your absence is apparent. But, from the looks of things you've transitioned nicely to a much more 'understanding' home here.
I'll be the first one to admit that I asked for it. But given that there were some extenuating circumstances (and the moderator knows this) I thought I might have gotten a break, considering my history there. But whatever. Looking at that place now, and given the way the host has been acting, I feel much, much more comfortable over here.
I mean, think about it for a second. He actually came right out and openly accused them of plagiarism. That's not something to be taken lightly or with a grain of salt. It's a very serious accusation and could even be considered libelous. If I were Mike Portnoy I'd probably be keeping my attorney's phone number handy right now because if he keeps saying shit like this in public, at some point there's going to be a little more blow-back than having a few ::) "fans" ::) lose their cool and get banned from his website.
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Oh Mike. :facepalm: You will obviously never learn. You are turning into Sharon Osbourne. Or Vinnie Vincent.
I see the similarity in the op and I would never have heard the Red song otherwise, so they will be happy with this I'm sure. It may put a few sales on the board for them. I prefer BMU. It sounds lush-er with JR's keys and it has JLB and not some kid shouting.
How can MP agree that BMU is a re-write from I&W and believe that it's plagiarising Red?
He's certainly not happy, despite what he says. And just being honest? Mmm. No hint of a positive honest comment though. I was a fan too. Now, I'm not.
This latest comment of his would get him banned from his own website if he was subject to the same rules as everyone else.
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The problem being (for me) is that in the past his 'honesty' was never spiked with that hint of malice that the comments towards DT seem to have.
Oh, the malice has been evident before now! Link: https://www.metalhammer.co.uk/news/dream-theaters-portnoy-if-kevin-moore-hadnt-left-wed-have-broken-up/
I just think it didn't hit as close to home for most fans until now.
I believe your assement (concerning the way I've looked at it) is correct. It is hitting home. I really didn't know it until MP quit and the aftermath began....but I am much more of a fan of 'Dream Theater' and what the music has meant to me...and what DT is to me....than a fan of any particular individual of DT. And that revelation suprised me more than anything considering the standing that I had given MP as KevShmev properly stated about me...I thought very highly of MP the man not musician...for whatever reasons I had constructed in my mind...I'm probably not the first or last person ever to 'build up' a celebrity or musician that has given me so much through thier work. I just think that I formed a perception of MP based on his lyrical contributions and his fan openess...never really stopping to realize that was merely a small part of who he is...maybe not wanting to realize that because the dude I had in my head and heart was...well...not real.
I started listening to DT when I was 15...I'm 35 now. When I look back and think of all the different chapters of my life I can easily equate that to a certain 'era' or group of songs that DT had written that helped guide me through those periods. I'm sure we all can say that for not just DT but an assortment of 'entertainers/musicians'.
And as I said, for whatever reason, even as a grown man I had MP way up there on a pedastal...WAY UP there....so maybe I have taken this whole saga and what not a bit too hard and certainly was a bit naive in thinking that those I look up to may not be exactly how I've constructed them and placed them in my mind.
The 'MP' I built in my head would have came out publicly, despite the 'divorce' of he and DT, and congratulated his long time friends on receiving a Grammy nomination....not pick a thread in his forum and accuse them of plagerism. I can't imagine what will be said and where it will be said by MP if/when DT wins that Grammy :metal
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How wonderful.
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Looking at that place now, and given the way the host has been acting, I feel much, much more comfortable over here.
You and me both :tup I've been trying to build some relationships here by contributing more all the while still maintaining the ones I genuinly enjoy and appreciate over there. Had I not made a couple buddies over there and want to maintain those connections...I don't even think I'd log in there any longer.
I'd be honest in saying the 'enjoyment' factor of the DTF outweighs MP's....by far...especailly due to the pins and needles environment it has evolved into.
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Hey, as a fan of Red, I'm just glad they are getting talked about. :biggrin:
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But seriously.
Did JP really put that Red album as his top pick 2011? Obviously he's not listening to radio these days and grown tired of that kind of shitty music.
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Interesting poll results in this thread (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2733727.aspx) on his forum.
As much as I disapprove of the way MP has been conducting himself (and I personally voted for "none of the above" and that was my sincere opinion) I don't read too much into the results of that poll...
...especially when YOU yourself have been on five eight forums asking others to go and "troll" the thread and sway the poll results to suit your agenda.
I don't get it: one famous man has been saying rude things about 5 other famous men - you don't know any of them personally.
Why would you go about "trolling" his OWN personal website just to make him feel bad for 2 minutes.
It's just pathetic.
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Where do I find that smiley eating popcorn thingy ?
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No matter what anybody says, every band has copied another band or been inspired by another band at some time or another. Rather than seeing it as plagiaristic, we might see it as the highest form of flattery. Secondly, Mike Portnoy can say and do whatever he would like.....like others have said, he chose to quit the band, and now that he is unhappy with his choice, he is spending his time slinging garbage around. Could any of that have to do with DT being nominated for a Grammy Award......bet that burns his ass knowing that for once the guys in DT are being recognized for their talent and it has nothing to do with him. Lastly, Portnoy has nothing better to do than sling dirt around considering he is in a bunch of forgettable bands, who will never be remembered, sucks to be him.
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No matter what anybody says, every band has copied another band or been inspired by another band at some time or another. Rather than seeing it as plagiaristic, we might see it as the highest form of flattery. Secondly, Mike Portnoy can say and do whatever he would like.....like others have said, he chose to quit the band, and now that he is unhappy with his choice, he is spending his time slinging garbage around. Could any of that have to do with DT being nominated for a Grammy Award......bet that burns his ass knowing that for once the guys in DT are being recognized for their talent and it has nothing to do with him. Lastly, Portnoy has nothing better to do than sling dirt around considering he is in a bunch of forgettable bands, who will never be remembered, sucks to be him.
JP....is that you? :biggrin:
Joking obviously ;D
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Look at the poll results, people.
Just look.
https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2733727.aspx
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Yeah, I'm also looking forward to hearing Flying colors, it really has a lot of potential considering how it has been described. I think most of the ''none of them'' voters are just a bunch of trolls.
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Courtesy of kirksnosehair:
Look at the poll results! Troll that poll and we'll all have some good fun! muthafukkin LOL Mike Portnoy
Unfortunately, he's in serious denial about the fact that he's a GIGANTIC FUCKING CUNT
So, the only thing these poll results will show him is the world is out to get him and he's a victim.
I hope he's enjoying the feeling of the collective "fans" manpoles being shoved violently up his fucking manpussy
https://www.fiveeightforums.com/threads/lol-mike-portnoy.87074/page-102
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Now wait a minute, man, that's not cool. I seriously doubt any of you will skip Flying colors.
I'm confused about what's been going on, but I'd like to try and stay classy, the way the guys in the band are. Yeah, we all have feelings, and we're all sad and disappointed with certain things Mike has done, but what can we do? The best we can do is remember the good times. Just today I watched those stage and backstage tours from Chaos in motion DVD - now that's Mike Portnoy, right there. :metal
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Courtesy of kirksnosehair:
Look at the poll results! Troll that poll and we'll all have some good fun! muthafukkin LOL Mike Portnoy
Unfortunately, he's in serious denial about the fact that he's a GIGANTIC FUCKING CUNT
So, the only thing these poll results will show him is the world is out to get him and he's a victim.
I hope he's enjoying the feeling of the collective "fans" manpoles being shoved violently up his fucking manpussy
https://www.fiveeightforums.com/threads/lol-mike-portnoy.87074/page-102
Two things:
#1 - knh, is that really you? That doesn't seem anything like the way you present yourself here. That's not cool, man.
#2 - integralbirth, at the same time, it's not cool for your only two posts here to be slagging another member. You've never contributed to the forum before; if this is the only kind of thing you have to contribute, please don't.
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Sorry if my posts offended you.
I've been a LONG time lurker here, but I just felt compelled to share my opinion on this matter. I don't think my posts are "slagging" anyone. KNH has made two posts asking us insistently to "just look at the poll" so I just wanted to express that I looked at the poll and it is meaningless. Meaningless because he is clearly orchestrating some sort of group activity to skew the results just to offend someone on their own website.
If simply pointing out the truth in a respectful way offends people here, then, fuck it, I'll guess I'll go back to lurking.
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:( It seems like every time I think things have settled down, something happens, and (I say with great respect), it always seems to be coming from MP. :'(
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Typical Nosehair.
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#1 - knh, is that really you? That doesn't seem anything like the way you present yourself here. That's not cool, man.
#2 - integralbirth, at the same time, it's not cool for your only two posts here to be slagging another member. You've never contributed to the forum before; if this is the only kind of thing you have to contribute, please don't.
Re #1, it's nothing like the way he conducted himself at MP.com for years, either. Quite the eye opener, this.
Re #2, given the context, I thought integralbirth was well within his rights to make the point he did.
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I'm not offended. And I don't care what happened before at some other site. I am only mildly interested in what is happening at any other sites now.
I am getting really tired of fucking drama around here. There is enough real shit (like MP mouthing off) that I don't need any fake shit to deal with (like trying to manipulate a stupid poll, or the calling out of said manipulation).
No offense, of course. Everyone have a nice fucking day.
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Check out Reny Petrucci comment ... its sums up the thread :
https://www.formspring.me/Renypetrucci/q/272084933122472376
Whats your dad think about MP taking bad about ADTOE ("Check out the first song on JP's fav album of the year WOW, the arrangement and orchestration sounds awfully familiar!! Surely it must be an intentional "nugget" for the fans...I just have to laugh")
someone asked 13 hours ago
Reny Petrucci :
He's just jealous that they got nominated for a grammy after he left. ;)
7 hours ago
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Regardless of trolling, the poll result instantly made me burst out laughing.
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So what I've gleaned from this is that now that MP's out of the band and has been for a while, he feels that he can comment on DT's music the way he did as an impartial observer/listener/fan in the same way that any other fan might.
The fact is, given who MP is in relation to the band and his history with them, his opinion of the band's recent output tends to carry more public weight than your average forumer.
Even if he doesn't intend it as a potshot at the band, it's so easily interpreted as that because he was such a big part of DT for so many years, and because he left under rather ugly circumstances. If anybody else said "wow, This Band's song "X" sounds exactly like DT's song "Y" it's not going to be interpreted as a "serious accusation of plagiarism." But when Mike Portnoy does, it is. It's been a while, he probably doesn't harbor hard feelings toward the band, but feels far enough removed from DT that he can publicly say stuff like this and not have it be a huge deal. The rest of the world still very much associates MP with DT, so the end result of all this is that we all still care too much about what Mike Portnoy posts on his forum.
A friend of mine close to members of DT tells me that MP recently sent the whole band an e-mail apologizing for all the mud-slinging and congratulating them on the Grammy nomination.
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So much drama.
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Utterly preposterous that anybody would think that BMU, BMD is a rip off of this song. Marginal structural similarities. Never Enough was much much closer to Stockholm Syndrome than BMU, BMD is to Feed The Machine.
And MP, please stop hating on DT with such unabashed vengeance already. You're losing the respect of DT fans who support you.
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Ouch @ the poll results, that's gotta hurt.
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just when through all this shit.
lol Porney.
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The fact is, given who MP is in relation to the band and his history with them, his opinion of the band's recent output tends to carry more public weight than your average forumer.
Even if he doesn't intend it as a potshot at the band, it's so easily interpreted as that because he was such a big part of DT for so many years, and because he left under rather ugly circumstances. If anybody else said "wow, This Band's song "X" sounds exactly like DT's song "Y" it's not going to be interpreted as a "serious accusation of plagiarism." But when Mike Portnoy does, it is.
Sherm, I get what you are saying, but you are also missing the point.
First off, he didn't just say "song X sounds exactly like song Y." He said it is plagiarism. He used that word. And that is a very serious accusation.
Second, and perhaps why a lot of people are finding what he said so objectionable, what he said is outright hypocritical because the band did the exact same thing when he was with them, and he jumped all over anyone who dared say they were copying, borrowing, or whatever other term you want to use. Before, he actively incorporated elements of others' music and shouted down fans how objected. Now, he is calling the same thing plariarism. As much as I think ALL members of DT, past and present, need to be generally respected on this site, there is no other way to describe his statements than to say he is being a hypocrite.
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A couple things. First of all:
I don't blame the guy for being upset about the DT situation at all. It's justified. But his actions in response to it are totally not. Don't they say the best "revenge" is to live well? He's got a ton of new music coming out. Let that speak for itself, instead of continuing to burn bridges to the point where they look like the aftermath of the ADTOE cover.
Blob, this was genius. :lol
Second: this is the first I've heard of any "inspiration corner". What does that refer to, exactly?
Finally, the poll mentioned on the last couple pages has been removed (the link no longer functions, anyway). Would anyone who saw it care to tell the rest of us what it was?
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The poll about which MP project you're most excited about. A little less than half of the votes were for "none at all." There was some other project I can't remember the name of that had most of the remaining votes, and a few spread out between the rest.
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he certainly makes it very hard for me to like him. which is sad cause he was the original drummer for my favorite band. welp, whatever. viva mike mangini
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Where do I find that smiley eating popcorn thingy ?
:corn
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I thought MP had moved on already? :facepalm: Not very mature behavior...
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I thought MP had moved on already? :facepalm: Not very mature behavior...
Yup. "Seize the day" indeed. :tdwn
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I thought MP had moved on already? :facepalm: Not very mature behavior...
Yup. "Seize the day" indeed. :tdwn
Yep, but remember that there are negociations as to how much money he will get after having left the band and we don't know if they turn in his favor. It may explain part of his reaction. But his attitude is downward aggressive : the word "plagiarism" in the mouth of a professional musician has a lot of weight and I'm convinced MP did it on purpose : who knows, maybe he's trying to have the guys face a trial and have them lose money, who knows? (OK, it may be far-fetched but you see my point...).
B.Lee
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maybe he's trying to have the guys face a trial and have them lose money, who knows?
I think that would be that "one thing" he could do to really ignite the DT fans to rage hard...
And Petrucci would still be all "hey check out this riff I just wrote."
(https://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/xg2099/johnpetrci-1.jpg)
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maybe he's trying to have the guys face a trial and have them lose money, who knows?
I think that would be that "one thing" he could do to really ignite the DT fans to rage hard...
And Petrucci would still be all "hey check out this riff I just wrote."
Yeah, the guys are incredible in the whole situation! And they act in the best possible manner : say nothing and wait for things to calm down. I know why I love them so much!
B.Lee
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Check out Reny Petrucci comment ... its sums up the thread :
https://www.formspring.me/Renypetrucci/q/272084933122472376
Whats your dad think about MP taking bad about ADTOE ("Check out the first song on JP's fav album of the year WOW, the arrangement and orchestration sounds awfully familiar!! Surely it must be an intentional "nugget" for the fans...I just have to laugh")
someone asked 13 hours ago
Reny Petrucci :
He's just jealous that they got nominated for a grammy after he left. ;)
7 hours ago
Maybe MP is just trying to generate controversy around DT to boost their chances of winning the grammy...
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Is he our batman?
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(https://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldbwyptlIF1qfqb5mo1_500.gif)
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Alright, after listening to this song a few times, it seems obvious to me that the song was copied to a large extent.
That being said, the fact that JP thought that this song was so awesome that he decided to to re-do it for ADTOE is a great thank you and tribute to RED. A christian band that JP says is his favorite album of the year. The guys from RED have to be thrilled. I'm thrilled for RED and DT both for this and see nothing wrong with it at all.
I don't think if JP was "just" ripping off the song, he would have mentioned it was his favorite album of the year so we would all go and listen to it and "hear the theft". He believes in the band and I don't think he could care less if it sounds similar. Maybe a few here will go listen to the album and hear the greater message within. A message all of us would benefit from.
I'm not bothered that the songs sound similar, but I am very happy to hear RED's new album.
P.S. I'm proud of my Christianity and am glad to know that the leader of DT listens to music with a good message. Obviously that positively influences DT's music. A big step up from the "devil horns" of most metal music IMO.
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Has the band Red said anything about all this yet?
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Damn, I don't even really see the "rip-off" here. And I'm one of the persons who pointed out similarities in older songs that were much more in-your-face for me and that nobody agreed to. I read all those posts and thought it must be really blatantly obvious and this is just a little bit! Or did I miss something?
I mean, check out this! https://www.metacafe.com/watch/sy-1457695576/michael_jackson_give_in_to_me_official_music_video/ Endless Sacrifice anyone? Not mentioning that the overall structure is very similar to Sanitarium... But I don't care about that. That was always a part of Dream Theater for me.
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Has the band Red said anything about all this yet?
Why would they? As much as certain persons might want it to be a story, it really isn't one. DT has done this for years (and many of them are far more obvious that this one, which is sketchy at best), and I can't recall any band they borrowed from before ever saying anything about it.
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Just curious is all...
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I don't blame the guy for being upset about the DT situation at all. It's justified. But his actions in response to it are totally not. Don't they say the best "revenge" is to live well? He's got a ton of new music coming out. Let that speak for itself, instead of continuing to burn bridges to the point where they look like the aftermath of the ADTOE cover.
You would think he would be content traveling all over the country as the personal guest of many bands, getting backstage for one of the biggest Metallica concerts of all time, and being featured on cable television constantly...but he's not. You kind of have to feel sorry for him. But I guess we shouldn't because he is as happy as can be and never forgets to tell us that...he's happy!!! Right?! He just always wants to remind people that he's happy!
Funniest thing on his forum was when he said there is a big differences between a nugget or a nod to a style and a blatant rip off and someone responded "That difference being whether you are currently in the band or not?" Sums it up perfectly...
The other hilarious response was, "Does this mean Red ripped off Take the Time?" The situation is absurd and mike is just digging deeper and deeper
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You would think he would be content traveling all over the country as the personal guest of many bands, getting backstage for one of the biggest Metallica concerts of all time, and being featured on cable television constantly...but he's not. You kind of have to feel sorry for him. But I guess we shouldn't because he is as happy as can be and never forgets to tell us that...he's happy!!! Right?! He just always wants to remind people that he's happy!
Those kind of things pale in comparison to the exposure he had while being DT's drummer/leader. Most MP fans are Dream Theater fans, and not all Dream Theater fans are Mike Portnoy fans. Portnoy, for the first time in his career, is out there on his own and making his way out of it. He may have minor success with Mob and/or Flying Colors, but he'll never be as high as we was with Dream Theater.
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You would think he would be content traveling all over the country as the personal guest of many bands, getting backstage for one of the biggest Metallica concerts of all time, and being featured on cable television constantly...but he's not. You kind of have to feel sorry for him. But I guess we shouldn't because he is as happy as can be and never forgets to tell us that...he's happy!!! Right?! He just always wants to remind people that he's happy!
Those kind of things pale in comparison to the exposure he had while being DT's drummer/leader. Most MP fans are Dream Theater fans, and not all Dream Theater fans are Mike Portnoy fans. Portnoy, for the first time in his career, is out there on his own and making his way out of it. He may have minor success with Mob and/or Flying Colors, but he'll never be as high as we was with Dream Theater.
I don't know. I could see Adrenaline Mob being huge. Russell Allen is the best singer in the world who isn't Bruce Dickinson. And Mike Orlando is a total rock star, apart from being an awesome, ballsy player. The whole band totally delivers the goods live.
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lol no
Mike Orlando is a generic metal player who likes playing fast.
Russell Allen is a great singer, but the songs he sings in aren't interesting at all.
Mike Portnoy.
The other guys, I don't know about them.
A big chunk of the Adrenaline Mob fans are Mike Portnoy fans; so I really can't see the band having a genuine fanbase although their album is actually good (which I doubt, considering the bad EP they are giving right now for free).
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From On the Backs of Angels
Riding out the wave
Content to FEED off THE MACHINE
Bleeding us to death
The new American dream
NUGGETT?
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:corn
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From Build Me Up, Break Me Down
Tonight I am the new messiah
You deify
When I'm no longer desiRED
I'll be crucified
NUGGET?
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That's an intentional nugget for the fans.
Believe Me...
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Those kind of things pale in comparison to the exposure he had while being DT's drummer/leader. Most MP fans are Dream Theater fans, and not all Dream Theater fans are Mike Portnoy fans. Portnoy, for the first time in his career, is out there on his own and making his way out of it. He may have minor success with Mob and/or Flying Colors, but he'll never be as high as we was with Dream Theater.
Yep. After years of building up their fanbase and playing to bigger crowds at time went on, and then playing in front of even bigger crowds on a regular basis with A7X, it had to be awfully humbling for him (if he is capable at this point of being humble) to suddenly being playing in front of 100+ a people a night with his new band. I agree that DT was as good as he ever had it, and will never get it again with a regular touring band. Sure, he has a lot of friends in the industry (supposedly), and can probably do a show here and a show there, kind of a side project kind of thing, but as far as a full-time band goes, his dominant personality is simply too much for an existing band to take on, and any new band would likely take the same time of trajectory that DT did as far as a time standpoint in gaining popularity and momentum. DT was it for him, and he threw it away. And he has no one to blame but himself.
I could see Adrenaline Mob being huge.
I give them 0% chance of being huge. Their sound is extremely generic (and lack hooks, which you need when your sound is that generic), and most of the original songs they have done thus far are extremely bland and forgettable (to put it nicely). Considering most bands write their best songs early on in their career, starting off so badly is not a good sign at all.
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MPs comment on his site really distressed me and in a lot of ways frustrated me and Bosk rather poignantly (and I agree with 100%) pointed out the hypocrisy of the whole thing. I really don't know what is going through Mike's head right now, but I hope he finds a way out of it. He has openly accused Dream Theater of plagiarism which pretty much tears down whatever bridges he was trying to build. Is he purposely hijacking this or is there something else going on in the background? In any event, if he doesn't pull himself together soon he might find himself without any of the friends he made along the way. No one deserves to sink that low.
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MPs comment on his site really distressed me and in a lot of ways frustrated me and Bosk rather poignantly (and I agree with 100%) pointed out the hypocrisy of the whole thing. I really don't know what is going through Mike's head right now, but I hope he finds a way out of it. He has openly accused Dream Theater of plagiarism which pretty much tears down whatever bridges he was trying to build. Is he purposely hijacking this or is there something else going on in the background? In any event, if he doesn't pull himself together soon he might find himself without any of the friends he made along the way. No one deserves to sink that low.
As I wrote before, it might have something to do with the negociations between DT's camp and his not turning to his advantage. Plus the grammy nomination...I don't know but maybe he's trying to attract them on his territory -aggressive gossip- and seeing the guys remain silent may frustrate and enfuriate him.
B.Lee
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I don't know. I could see Adrenaline Mob being huge. Russell Allen is the best singer in the world who isn't Bruce Dickinson. And Mike Orlando is a total rock star, apart from being an awesome, ballsy player. The whole band totally delivers the goods live.
I dunno, they have so many awesome people but somehow the whole is less than the sum of its parts right now. I LOVE Russell Allen and MP but as with everyone else, the songs just haven't really grabbed me so far.
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Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube. I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie." It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine." Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc. Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.
My take on JP's riff is that artists are always influenced by other artists and try to take a theme and make it their own, or make it better. I mean, how many movies have you seen that have a similar plot or theme? I can name at least half a dozen movies that are about body swapping: "Freaky Friday," "13 Going on 30," "The Change Up." Art influences art. It always has, it always will.
Anyway, I really hope MP makes a New Years resolution to stop his DT bickering.
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Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube. I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie." It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine." Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc. Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.
:clap:
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From On the Backs of Angels
Riding out the wave
Content to FEED off THE MACHINE
Bleeding us to death
The new American dream
NUGGETT?
From Build Me Up, Break Me Down
Tonight I am the new messiah
You deify
When I'm no longer desiRED
I'll be crucified
NUGGET?
I wanna talk about lifelong mistakes
and you can tell your stepfather I said so
PREEMPTIVE NUGGIT!?
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Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube. I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie." It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine." Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc. Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.
My take on JP's riff is that artists are always influenced by other artists and try to take a theme and make it their own, or make it better. I mean, how many movies have you seen that have a similar plot or theme? I can name at least half a dozen movies that are about body swapping: "Freaky Friday," "13 Going on 30," "The Change Up." Art influences art. It always has, it always will.
I really hope MP makes a New Years resolution to stop his DT bickering. It would also be nice if he congratulated DT on their Grammy nomination.
forget the similarities to lie, WHY DOES THE GUITAR SOUND LIKE THAT
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Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube. I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie." It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine." Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc. Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.
My take on JP's riff is that artists are always influenced by other artists and try to take a theme and make it their own, or make it better. I mean, how many movies have you seen that have a similar plot or theme? I can name at least half a dozen movies that are about body swapping: "Freaky Friday," "13 Going on 30," "The Change Up." Art influences art. It always has, it always will.
I really hope MP makes a New Years resolution to stop his DT bickering. It would also be nice if he congratulated DT on their Grammy nomination.
Dude...thats a nugget. thats all it is...nugget...nothing more. Psh, cause MP was involved...therefore any and all negativity can be chalked up to nuggets.
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(https://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2003/12/15/pa1b25_chicken_nuggets_lg.jpg)
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Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube. I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie." It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine." Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc. Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.
My take on JP's riff is that artists are always influenced by other artists and try to take a theme and make it their own, or make it better. I mean, how many movies have you seen that have a similar plot or theme? I can name at least half a dozen movies that are about body swapping: "Freaky Friday," "13 Going on 30," "The Change Up." Art influences art. It always has, it always will.
I really hope MP makes a New Years resolution to stop his DT bickering. It would also be nice if he congratulated DT on their Grammy nomination.
forget the similarities to lie, WHY DOES THE GUITAR SOUND LIKE THAT
because Mike Orlando is a hack guitar player who obviously has no sense of tone or style?
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From Mike's twitter:
"Have you taked to any DT members recently?”
I EMAILED THEM ALL TO CONGRATULATE ABOUT GRAMMY NOM...3 RESPONDED, 2 DIDN'T
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(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7151/6527940349_4eda511f22_b.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/60382194@N08/6527940349/)
Screen Shot 2011-12-17 at 5.50.17 PM (https://www.flickr.com/photos/60382194@N08/6527940349/) by tjanuranus (https://www.flickr.com/people/60382194@N08/), on Flickr
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From Mike's twitter:
"Have you taked to any DT members recently?”
I EMAILED THEM ALL TO CONGRATULATE ABOUT GRAMMY NOM...3 RESPONDED, 2 DIDN'T
Haha, I bet JM and JLB are the 2 that didn't
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They're gonna respond. :azn:
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he always find a way to throw something in so he's a victim in some way. they cant even respond to me wahhhhhhhh.
they also arent on forums taking shots at him or AM, but if they did you know MP would go crazy. they are staying quiet. the way they should
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(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7151/6527940349_4eda511f22_b.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/60382194@N08/6527940349/)
Screen Shot 2011-12-17 at 5.50.17 PM (https://www.flickr.com/photos/60382194@N08/6527940349/) by tjanuranus (https://www.flickr.com/people/60382194@N08/), on Flickr
Wow, I give you props for asking that. I see he finished the Twitter Q&A and didn't respond to that particular question. To be honest, if he is going to point the finger at DT over "BMU BMD," he should then expect his music to be put under the microscope as well. He gets a taste of his own medicine. I'll be interested in seeing if he responds to the "Lie/Psychosane" riff similarity or follows JP's lead and just lets it die down.
Also, very nice to see he quietly congratulated DT about the Grammy nomination via emails to the band!
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Yeah he is the one throwing the plagiarize word around so it's only fair he gets it back in his face. You know he read it too because he was reading people's questions.
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Saw this:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/did_dream_theater_steal_from_christian_rock_band.html
I mean, honestly, I don't think the riffs sound similar enough. The intros sound a bit similar, but leading into a song with a 1-2-3-4 snare seems pretty common, and having vocals "interrupted" by bursts of metal in the verses seems like a common trend as well. Both songs are good in their own way, but I don't think a plagiarism call is in order. And, as usual, it seems that MP is stoking the flames of the DT vs. MP "debate" that must exist or else the lives of all DT fans will be boring. :P
EDIT: also, the album came out in february. ADTOE was recorded from January till March, so plagiarism isn't inconceivable. But I have a feeling that most of the songs were written before that album came out, or at least existed in a basic structure before they were polished. I think it was JR that said they all came in with demos or riff libraries and stuff...
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I, for one, look forward to it :p
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EDIT: also, the album came out in february. ADTOE was recorded from January till March, so plagiarism isn't inconceivable. But I have a feeling that most of the songs were written before that album came out, or at least existed in a basic structure before they were polished. I think it was JR that said they all came in with demos or riff libraries and stuff...
Now that I think of it, I think I remember reading in one of the pre-release album previews that BMUBMD was written a bit later in the album's development as a sort of counterpoint to all the intense prog they had at that point. I'll try to find the article I'm referring to, but I'm almost certain that's the case.
EDIT: Easier than I thought it would be to find. https://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/dream-theaters-a-dramatic-turn-of-events-full-album-preview-488940/3
BMUBMD was written "pretty far into the album" -- that doesn't bode well for accusations of plagiarism, unfortunately.
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No it doesn't, but I'm listening to the song again and, like I said before, the structure of the verses (main riff, words, METAL, words, METAL, words, METAL, prechorus) is really the only thing similar between the two songs, I think.
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BMUBMD was written "pretty far into the album" -- that doesn't bode well for accusations of plagiarism, unfortunately.
Eh, JP was likely inspired by Red. The timeline adds up and he ranked the album #1 this year. But it's just a similar riff. Like I said earlier, art influences art influences art. Artists, whether musicians or filmakers or painters, all have influences and they are constantly bringing bits of those influences into their own art. If anything, I think people are surprised that JP has so much inspiration from a Christian rock band that's less popular than DT, instead of being influenced by a band that ranks above DT in terms of popularity.
If you ask me, the riff similarlity between Adrenaline Mob's "Psychosane" and "Lie" is on the same level as the riff similarity between "BMU BMD" and "Feed the Machine." Maybe Mike Orlando takes inspiration from Petrucci?
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BMUBMD was written "pretty far into the album" -- that doesn't bode well for accusations of plagiarism, unfortunately.
It does when they're musically nothing alike. Plagiarism is quite a huge accusation, and much more than mere inspiration. The fact is, if you took this kind of "plagiarism" to court, it would go nowhere, because musicality there is zero basis for any claim here.
At best it is a similar structure (and how many shorter songs use similar structures? The answer is a buttload), and maybe a similar vibe. And last time I checked, you can't copyright vibes.
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BMUBMD was written "pretty far into the album" -- that doesn't bode well for accusations of plagiarism, unfortunately.
Eh, JP was likely inspired by Red. The timeline adds up and he ranked the album #1 this year. But it's just a similar riff. Like I said earlier, art influences art influences art. Artists, whether musicians or filmakers or painters, all have influences and they are constantly bringing bits of those influences into their own art. If anything, I think people are surprised that JP has so much inspiration from a Christian rock band that's less popular than DT, instead of being influenced by a band that ranks above DT in terms of popularity.
If you ask me, the riff similarlity between Adrenaline Mob's "Psychosane" and "Lie" is on the same level as the riff similarity"BMU BMD" and "Feed the Machine." Maybe Mike Orlando takes inspiration from Petrucci?
Such a good point which everyone overlooks.
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BMUBMD was written "pretty far into the album" -- that doesn't bode well for accusations of plagiarism, unfortunately.
Eh, JP was likely inspired by Red. The timeline adds up and he ranked the album #1 this year. But it's just a similar riff. Like I said earlier, art influences art influences art. Artists, whether musicians or filmakers or painters, all have influences and they are constantly bringing bits of those influences into their own art. If anything, I think people are surprised that JP has so much inspiration from a Christian rock band that's less popular than DT, instead of being influenced by a band that ranks above DT in terms of popularity.
If you ask me, the riff similarlity between Adrenaline Mob's "Psychosane" and "Lie" is on the same level as the riff similarity"BMU BMD" and "Feed the Machine." Maybe Mike Orlando takes inspiration from Petrucci?
Such a good point which everyone overlooks.
Oh wow, that is really really similar to lie. That's funny.
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Who cares? Neither sets of songs are ripping each other off. Obviously JP was influenced. So what?
And the A-Mob tune sounds little to nothing like Lie. Bad comparison.
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Lame situation for Dream Theater. Due to a weird string of coincidences, now Ultimate-Guitar is running a story about the possibility they plagiarized another band. DT's held pretty strong to ignoring Portnoy-related drama. But they can't really let this go.
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But they can't really let this go.
Are you referring to the plagiarism accusation itself, or to MP's behaviour? I think their current approach of ignoring the drama is working pretty well, considering that both issues are complete hot air.
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It's because MP said the word plagiarize this story is growing. I made a cartoon that i think really tells the true tale of this story. You can read it here...
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=29984.msg1166871#msg1166871
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But they can't really let this go.
Are you referring to the plagiarism accusation itself, or to MP's behaviour? I think their current approach of ignoring the drama is working pretty well, considering that both issues are complete hot air.
The plagiarism accusation. Anything they can do to ignore the fact MP started it is a good thing.
There are two ways of handling media drama:
1. Don't acknowledge it. In theory, dignifying an accusation with a response gives it a validity it didn't have before.
2. Acknowledge it right away. In this case, the assumption is that ignoring something makes people say "wait, if this accusation wasn't true, why wouldn't they just say so?"
Because of the way culture has shifted, the first option almost never works. People assume gossip has at least a kernel of truth to it. You have to take control of the story immediately.
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The plagiarism accusation. Anything they can do to ignore the fact MP started it is a good thing.
There are two ways of handling media drama:
1. Don't acknowledge it. In theory, dignifying an accusation with a response gives it a validity it didn't have before.
2. Acknowledge it right away. In this case, the assumption is that ignoring something makes people say "wait, if this accusation wasn't true, why wouldn't they just say so?"
Because of the way culture has shifted, the first option almost never works. People assume gossip has at least a kernel of truth to it. You have to take control of the story immediately.
I guess either way it's a shitty position that DT should never have been put into. Because as you said, acknowledging it only gives it validity (and gives MP validity and perpetuates his exposure, which he doesn't deserve for throwing around accusations at his EX band), and also extra exposure that it wouldn't have had before. But even when DT deny things flat out, there are people who think there's a trick to the wording, or think they're lying anyway.
Whatever they do, there are pros and cons. I like that they're not playing into MP's tactics.
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Guys, MP has succeeded in two points here :
1- Have people speak of himself (something he's always wanted as he's always wanted attention to be given to him and just him)
2- Paint the guys in DT in a bad light once again and this time, it seems to work.
I'm repeating myself, but I'm really convinced there is something else going on we don't know about.
B.Lee
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Dream Theater should do the following
Send out a press release that states, "they don't plagiarize other bands." and two, sue Mike for defamation of character.
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Or they could just not give a fuck.
They are at a terrific point in their career, people like their new music and i'm sure its mostly the hardcore fans who really look at every MP tweet and every "truthful" comment of his, so its not a big thing, at least in my opinion.
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Or they could just not give a fuck.
They are at a terrific point in their career, people like their new music and i'm sure its mostly the hardcore fans who really look at every MP tweet and every "truthful" comment of his, so its not a big thing, at least in my opinion.
This. I think they're doing the right thing by ignoring Mike's negative comments and not talking about them (like Kevin Moore).
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I don't think they need to do anything. In public.
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The kindest word in all the world is the unkind word, unsaid.
-Jordan Rudess
Nuff said.
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I don't think they need to do anything. In public.
What about in private?
;)
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Hey, yeah, I made those comments on another board. I wouldn't make comments like that on this board, because I don't think this is an appropriate format for that kind of over-the-top commentary. That other place is somewhere that I let my hair down a little bit sometimes and vent my frustrations about certain things.
It's words, people, an expression of anger and frustration. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Both DT and MP are in the wrong here.
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I don't think they need to do anything. In public.
Ey, Tony, ya want me to put de squeeze on 'em, you just let lemme know, ok
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I find it funny that for all the rip-offey moments in DT history, THIS is the one that gets publicity :lol
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I think its only getting attention for the same reason the "I&W/ADTOE" "similarities" were publicized: because Mike Portnoy made the accusations. Or at least agreed with them. Had Derek Sherinian, Kevin Moore, or Charlie Dominici said anything like "hmm...Endless Sacrifice? More like 'Give Into Mendless Sacrifice,' amirite?" at the time of Train of Thought I'm sure UG or any equivalent site would have been all over it. Same with Never Enough/Hysteria, Prophets of War/Muse and Queen, Constant Motion/Blackened, etc. etc.
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I have seen nobody say this.
If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.
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Or they could just not give a fuck.
They are at a terrific point in their career, people like their new music and i'm sure its mostly the hardcore fans who really look at every MP tweet and every "truthful" comment of his, so its not a big thing, at least in my opinion.
This. I think they're doing the right thing by ignoring Mike's negative comments and not talking about them (like Kevin Moore).
This. They're better off just ignoring Portnoy anyway.
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I have seen nobody say this.
If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.
Lots of people already said this. And that's correct.
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the intro to the 1st chorus is similar, but after that not so much. Also, the chorus in build me up, is so much better. In songs such as these, choruses's are what make the song and I think Build me up is better. There are definitely much better tracks on the Red album besides the opener that we are discussing.
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I have seen nobody say this.
If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.
Lots of people already said this. And that's correct.
Don't get your post : you say JP actually STOLE from Red?
B.Lee
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I hate the word steal when it comes to music. I like to use influenced. Sometimes you hear something that just infects you writing.
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I have seen nobody say this.
If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.
Lots of people already said this. And that's correct.
Don't get your post : you say JP actually STOLE from Red?
B.Lee
Huh? Sorry, but what's so hard to understand here? He said "nobody pointed it out already, but if John Petrucci really DID steal, he wouldn't put the album at the top of his list", so he was NOT just too lazy to write stuff or rubbish like that. And I said that some people already pointed that out and that statement is totally true. JP wouldn't do it; he didn't steal.
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But they can't really let this go.
Are you referring to the plagiarism accusation itself, or to MP's behaviour? I think their current approach of ignoring the drama is working pretty well, considering that both issues are complete hot air.
The plagiarism accusation. Anything they can do to ignore the fact MP started it is a good thing.
There are two ways of handling media drama:
1. Don't acknowledge it. In theory, dignifying an accusation with a response gives it a validity it didn't have before.
2. Acknowledge it right away. In this case, the assumption is that ignoring something makes people say "wait, if this accusation wasn't true, why wouldn't they just say so?"
Because of the way culture has shifted, the first option almost never works. People assume gossip has at least a kernel of truth to it. You have to take control of the story immediately.
Generally speaking, i would be with you. But in this case, what would they obtain by saying "no we didn't"?. Would people who are actually thinking that they've copied the Red song then think "ok, so they didn't". The only proof DT have is the song itself, and if you thought, after knowing what MP said, that it's a plagiarism you won't change your mind.
I mean, in this case, once you've thrown the accusation, to hold the situation is almost impossible.
I think that DT are fortunate enough that MP reputation has gone incredibly down (and, from the bottom of my heart, i think he deserves all the hate he's receiving, especially for this last thing, which is the most disgusting he has done since his departure), since ALL the comments i'm reading in some general music forums and sites it's something like "LoLPortnoy".
And as for the songs, there's a certain common vibe, but that's it.
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I think this whole comparison is way overblown. There is just the tiniest bit of similarity between both songs' intro+verse, but it's only a small one. Anyone who says it sounds exactly the same and is a complete plagiarism, frankly, doesn't have a very good ear and/or brain. They are only really similar in the respect that they are both drop D (or similar de-tune) using open strings or rapid pull-offs into open strings for a heavy riff. That's pretty much par for the course in every song in drop D at some point though... so it's not a very good point against JP. However, I'm pretty sure he just really loved the song and wanted to put a little bit of it into his work. I'm occasionally struck by something when drawing or doing photography that I'm just captivated by and want to do something with it in a small way. As stated numerous times in this thread, you would have to be a complete moron to plagiarize a song and then call attention to said song to the entire world shortly after you released yours by listing it as your #1 favorite album of the year.
Oh, and Never Enough is about a million times more similar to Stockholm Syndrome than this. It literally sounds identical for a few parts, especially the intro and one of James' vocal melodies. This barely even registers at all on the similar meter to me and the people I've A/B'd it for. The chorus, the solos, the vocals+vocal melodies - nothing sounds even close to the same. It's just an intro with a similar vibe that tons of drop D songs share. Even some of my pathetic attempts at song "writing" on guitar produced a similar sounding bit at a couple of different points in the song! It's just too easy to do and it sound decent. There are tons of examples, but quite honest I barely listen to western music anymore outside of DT and a few select others so I'm not exactly the best person to point them all out.
Calling this plagiarism on JP or DT's behalf is like saying Muse ripped off Lamb of God (Muse album came 5 months after LoG's) because of a 10 second passage at the beginning of Stockholm Syndrome sorta kinda has the same notes as a passage in Ruin about 1:00 in. Never mind that there are tons more notes in the Muse version, it's sped way up, and the notes aren't even exactly the same, it's still plagiarism! *sarcasm* The sad part is, I found that small similarity (which itself is quite a stretch) just now while looking for examples of this type of drop D riffing. I've never heard a single LoG song in my life and I've only heard Stockholm Syndrome a couple of times when comparing it to Never Enough. There is no telling how many similarities you could and would find if you have a better memory than I do and listen to more bands and genres. I'm sure RED sounds similar to something out there to, and I bet they have to put up with this crap soon when they get more popular! :lol
(2003-09-29) Muse - Stockholm Syndrome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XPYLIy3FWpk#t=7s
(2003-05-06) Lamb of God - Ruin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iFm9v0wvEnw#t=58s
Just to clarify, no, I do not think anyone above ripped off/copies/plagiarized anyone at all. I think the similarity between the two songs is basically non-existant, but it's about equal to the DT/RED comparisons in my eyes. I'm just trying to showcase some of the absurdity that goes on lately dealing with DT. Sometimes they have been quite guilty of some things I'm not very happy with (looking at you Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome), but this is not one of those cases IMO. Alternating open note heavy riffs like that are just too common, and there is seriously only so many notes and ways you could play it with a simplified open-type heavy riff like that. IDK, I guess I'm probably preaching to the choir so to speak, but man it is ever annoying when people exaggerate things like this to the extreme.
DT-land makes me sad these days. Half the time or more they wind up in headlines it's because of some slanderous crap usually stirred up by you- know-who typically with an insulting "question" title along the lines of "Did DT copy it's most successful album cause they can't make it without MP?!" or "Did John Petrucci steal riffs from up-and-coming Christian rock band RED?!" They avoid getting in trouble for saying things that they have no way of proving true by phrasing it as a question. -_-; Yeah, yeah, it's legal and such, but it's so annoying to see people game systems like that and harm others.
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They are only really similar in the respect that they are both drop D (or similar de-tune)
BMUBMD is played with a seven strings :P
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It's, what, a 40 second similarity at worst out of a 7 minute song? That hardly consists of "plagiarism" in the world of media.
It's not like vast, vast majority of our media is really "original" (https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/) anyway.
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I have seen nobody say this.
If Petrucci did steal from Red I highly doubt that he would have put their album at the top of his list.
Lots of people already said this. And that's correct.
Don't get your post : you say JP actually STOLE from Red?
B.Lee
Huh? Sorry, but what's so hard to understand here? He said "nobody pointed it out already, but if John Petrucci really DID steal, he wouldn't put the album at the top of his list", so he was NOT just too lazy to write stuff or rubbish like that. And I said that some people already pointed that out and that statement is totally true. JP wouldn't do it; he didn't steal.
No, that's just me, a misunderstanding. I also said earlier that had JP not put Red at the top of his list, noone would have ever noticed. Btw, I also think he didn't steal anything, pointing to the contrary is asinine.
So, we agree on that. Friends? :)
B.Lee
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It's, what, a 40 second similarity at worst out of a 7 minute song? That hardly consists of "plagiarism" in the world of media.
It's not like vast, vast majority of our media is really "original" (https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/) anyway.
Well, you know, the problem is not that it's only a few seconds that are similar, it's that MP, a professional musician and reknown drummer, has said that it's plagiarism. And this time, contrary to what's been said by some, I really think it could do DT some harm.
How in the hell can MP say he sent an e-mail congratulating the guys for their Grammy nom and just put that shit on the internet? Raise the Knife, anyone?
B.Lee
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Really, how much harm could this possible do to the band? It's not like DT fans are going to hear about this then suddenly go "what the FUCK, Dream Theater? I may or may not have been ok with the countless other times you've done this sort of thing, but this time I'm through!" They're not going to lose their Grammy nomination over this. This isn't going to sully their name with the general public, since the general public still pretty much has no idea who they are outside of the fact that they recently got a Grammy nomination.
It's not going to do anything other than cause a stink that people will forget about after a few weeks and will only be brought up as another reason for people do dislike MP. It's a non problem; just MP fueling the flames again.
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Really, how much harm could this possible do to the band? It's not like DT fans are going to hear about this then suddenly go "what the FUCK, Dream Theater? I may or may not have been ok with the countless other times you've done this sort of thing, but this time I'm through!" They're not going to lose their Grammy nomination over this. This isn't going to sully their name with the general public, since the general public still pretty much has no idea who they are outside of the fact that they recently got a Grammy nomination.
It's not going to do anything other than cause a stink that people will forget about after a few weeks and will only be brought up as another reason for people do dislike MP. It's a non problem; just MP fueling the flames again.
OK, I trust your for that. If you lose, you'll owe me a box of chocolates! :corn (no chocolate eater, pop corn eater will do.)
B.Lee
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Hey, yeah, I made those comments on another board. I wouldn't make comments like that on this board, because I don't think this is an appropriate format for that kind of over-the-top commentary. That other place is somewhere that I let my hair down a little bit sometimes and vent my frustrations about certain things.
It's words, people, an expression of anger and frustration. Nothing more, nothing less.
Seriously Barry. Not that I dissagree with your comments elsewhere but, just because you say it there doesn't make it right when you're back on this forum. You can't pretend to be 2 different people. (Although you have the same user name on all 3 boards.)
Might as well just say it here.
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I think this whole comparison is way overblown. There is just the tiniest bit of similarity between both songs' intro+verse, but it's only a small one. Anyone who says it sounds exactly the same and is a complete plagiarism, frankly, doesn't have a very good ear and/or brain. They are only really similar in the respect that they are both drop D (or similar de-tune) using open strings or rapid pull-offs into open strings for a heavy riff. That's pretty much par for the course in every song in drop D at some point though... so it's not a very good point against JP. However, I'm pretty sure he just really loved the song and wanted to put a little bit of it into his work. I'm occasionally struck by something when drawing or doing photography that I'm just captivated by and want to do something with it in a small way. As stated numerous times in this thread, you would have to be a complete moron to plagiarize a song and then call attention to said song to the entire world shortly after you released yours by listing it as your #1 favorite album of the year.
Oh, and Never Enough is about a million times more similar to Stockholm Syndrome than this. It literally sounds identical for a few parts, especially the intro and one of James' vocal melodies. This barely even registers at all on the similar meter to me and the people I've A/B'd it for. The chorus, the solos, the vocals+vocal melodies - nothing sounds even close to the same. It's just an intro with a similar vibe that tons of drop D songs share. Even some of my pathetic attempts at song "writing" on guitar produced a similar sounding bit at a couple of different points in the song! It's just too easy to do and it sound decent. There are tons of examples, but quite honest I barely listen to western music anymore outside of DT and a few select others so I'm not exactly the best person to point them all out.
Calling this plagiarism on JP or DT's behalf is like saying Muse ripped off Lamb of God (Muse album came 5 months after LoG's) because of a 10 second passage at the beginning of Stockholm Syndrome sorta kinda has the same notes as a passage in Ruin about 1:00 in. Never mind that there are tons more notes in the Muse version, it's sped way up, and the notes aren't even exactly the same, it's still plagiarism! *sarcasm* The sad part is, I found that small similarity (which itself is quite a stretch) just now while looking for examples of this type of drop D riffing. I've never heard a single LoG song in my life and I've only heard Stockholm Syndrome a couple of times when comparing it to Never Enough. There is no telling how many similarities you could and would find if you have a better memory than I do and listen to more bands and genres. I'm sure RED sounds similar to something out there to, and I bet they have to put up with this crap soon when they get more popular! :lol
(2003-09-29) Muse - Stockholm Syndrome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XPYLIy3FWpk#t=7s
(2003-05-06) Lamb of God - Ruin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iFm9v0wvEnw#t=58s
Just to clarify, no, I do not think anyone above ripped off/copies/plagiarized anyone at all. I think the similarity between the two songs is basically non-existant, but it's about equal to the DT/RED comparisons in my eyes. I'm just trying to showcase some of the absurdity that goes on lately dealing with DT. Sometimes they have been quite guilty of some things I'm not very happy with (looking at you Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome), but this is not one of those cases IMO. Alternating open note heavy riffs like that are just too common, and there is seriously only so many notes and ways you could play it with a simplified open-type heavy riff like that. IDK, I guess I'm probably preaching to the choir so to speak, but man it is ever annoying when people exaggerate things like this to the extreme.
DT-land makes me sad these days. Half the time or more they wind up in headlines it's because of some slanderous crap usually stirred up by you- know-who typically with an insulting "question" title along the lines of "Did DT copy it's most successful album cause they can't make it without MP?!" or "Did John Petrucci steal riffs from up-and-coming Christian rock band RED?!" They avoid getting in trouble for saying things that they have no way of proving true by phrasing it as a question. -_-; Yeah, yeah, it's legal and such, but it's so annoying to see people game systems like that and harm others.
Amen!
And @ Bertielee: Of course friends. I knew it sounded kinda harsh, but that wasn't intended. :angel:
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And @ Bertielee: Of course friends. I knew it sounded kinda harsh, but that wasn't intended. :angel:
:tup
B.Lee
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It's, what, a 40 second similarity at worst out of a 7 minute song? That hardly consists of "plagiarism" in the world of media.
It's not like vast, vast majority of our media is really "original" (https://www.everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/) anyway.
The outro is remarkably similar as well, as is the instrumental break 75% of the way through... it's not just the intro. That being said, I am arguing that they are similar and that BMU was influenced by this song. Plagiarism is another thing... I dont think it's at that level. I don't view this as harshly as JP's unattributed stealing of lyrics from novels and textbooks that has occurred in the past.
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The passive-aggressive stuff really pisses me off. Have the courage of your convictions and say what you think instead of the spineless phrasing as a question all the time.
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imo, they don't sound that similar at all. sure it's kinda similar in the intro, but the riffs are COMPLETELY different. can't believe I just stumbled across this. i've got a lot of reading to do!
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Nice detective work, BVD. ;) :tup :tup What you said is probably right on the money. It appears as if Portnoy really didn't learn a damn thing from the 12-step program and that writing the songs was merely grandstanding.
"Kindness - it's not that hard."
"I once thought it better to be right
But now I have finally seen the light
Sometimes you've got to be wrong
And learn from mistakes
I live with serenity now
Not self-righteous hate."
Yeah right.
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I can see the similarities in a sense that BMU could have been influenced by this, but this is definitely no plagiarism..
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I've finally read through all of this and checked other sites. my opinions:
* Opening of both songs are similar. Otherwise they are completely different. There's a definite difference between an infleunce and plagarism. Seems like MP, rather hypocrically, hasn't learnt from what he's said in previous years.
* Who cares anyway?! JP showing Red's album at the top of his end of year list just shows the influence and that's pretty cool imo.
* MP. gees. Any little respect I had for him was unfortunately lost after the whole JLB/Facebook liking situation. If he kept his mouth shut for once none of this would have happened - here was absolutely no need to bring it up on his forum, none at all. The worst thing about it all was how he announced it in a completely sarcastic way as well. That annoyed me. You can tell he's not in a "happy place" - if he was he wouldn't have seen the need to post something like this. Just to merely observe it.
Where will all of this go? Probably nowhere. From past situations DT haven't said anything at all and that's served them well. I hope it's like that this time as well.
Just my thoughts.
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oh and lastly:
MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it’s their choice and doing…not mine!
...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing :-\
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Really, how much harm could this possible do to the band? It's not like DT fans are going to hear about this then suddenly go "what the FUCK, Dream Theater? I may or may not have been ok with the countless other times you've done this sort of thing, but this time I'm through!" They're not going to lose their Grammy nomination over this. This isn't going to sully their name with the general public, since the general public still pretty much has no idea who they are outside of the fact that they recently got a Grammy nomination.
It's not going to do anything other than cause a stink that people will forget about after a few weeks and will only be brought up as another reason for people do dislike MP. It's a non problem; just MP fueling the flames again.
Anytime someone does damage to someones artistic credibility it's a serious thing. Sure they may not be fan-less over the ordeal(s), but at the rate MP keeps chipping away at DT they are going to be so badly wounded in the minds of fans/potential fans that they may avoid them altogether I don't think it's a dire situation or anything, but you can't deny the effect of public image on selling your goods. If it wasn't important the world would be an entirely different place. :lol DT is getting a lot of negative exposure lately, and for a band that didn't exactly have a massive following that is going to hurt them eventually. Now the accusations of plagiarism and copying their own songs are constantly going to be brought up as another reason to hate on them and it undermines all of their music as people are more likely to look for things now that they've "stolen" or "copied". MP's smear campaign, whether intentional or not, is working (look on the RED video atm at the people saying essentially "omg portnoy said DT ripped off this song"). Before, when people said stuff about DT copying songs or whatnot it was by posters and wasn't usually put up in a hugely negative and confrontational way or published as "news" articles (to my knowledge). They were stuffed in forums on the net and most people would have never heard about it. MP has starpower and a pretty large following listening to his every word while he stands on his soapbox of social media and forums though.
Also, it would sully their name with the public because the public doesn't know who they are. All they will hear (theoretically) is the condensed little sound-byte that DT accused of plagiarism, and that's all they will remember. If they ever see something DT in the future they will probably look at it not as favorable (they had no sway at all before, and now they have negative thanks to the accusation, they certainly wouldn't like them more because of plagiarism!)
Anyway, it's not a huge deal either way, but it isn't something that should be downplayed. It has a real effect on their fan-base and careers as well as the public perception of their music. :'( I just wish people would stop exaggerating how similar the songs are for their own desires or bias - including MP.
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Plagiarism is a huge freaking deal. Plagiarize in university and you generally get kicked out and you get a stamp on your records saying you did.
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Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves
I hope that this is the only song
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Plagiarism is a huge freaking deal. Plagiarize in university and you generally get kicked out and you get a stamp on your records saying you did.
Hmmm, I should clarify my statement, I meant it in the sense that they didn't plagiarize "Feed the Machine" and no one would agree that they did that wasn't heavily biased, so I don't see it as a big deal in that regard (as in I don't see any type of action being taken against them.. I guess it would be copyright infringement if red actually tried? :huh:). What DT did isn't a big deal at all, what MP did on the other hand is, and I'm pretty sure it's illegal isn't it? Or did he phrase the slander as a question again? I can't remember atm how exactly it was worded.
Edit: @GoTP wow... I'm speechless... :facepalm:
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I can hear some similarities, but come on. It's not plagiarism. Why doesn't MP just shut the fuck up at this point? He comes to DTF, and tries to clear things up with the fanbase, but now he's backtracking again. I'm sure we'll see more posts from him defending himself, and trying to bring people back to his side again, but I'm done. I might listen to some of the future projects he releases but I can't support him or defend him anymore.
Stay classy DT, and ignore all of the nonsense.
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Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves
I hope that this is the only song
i almost agree. im not trying to sound like a cunt, but i actually think the intros sound less alike the the rest of the songs. no, im not trolling.
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oh and lastly:
MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it’s their choice and doing…not mine!
...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing :-\
He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.
Putting your hands over your eyes does not make you invisible.
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oh and lastly:
MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it’s their choice and doing…not mine!
...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing :-\
He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.
Putting your hands over your eyes does not make you invisible.
This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.
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I don't know. I could see Adrenaline Mob being huge. Russell Allen is the best singer in the world who isn't Bruce Dickinson. And Mike Orlando is a total rock star, apart from being an awesome, ballsy player. The whole band totally delivers the goods live.
I dunno, they have so many awesome people but somehow the whole is less than the sum of its parts right now. I LOVE Russell Allen and MP but as with everyone else, the songs just haven't really grabbed me so far.
Bit of a thread hijack. Sorry. But I dig the songs, and the hooks, as someone mentioned earlier. And some of the ones from the album that weren't on the EP they played live are even better. They're one of the best, most engaging and entertaining live bands I've seen.
To bring it back to the topic: Mike's not being cool. Lame.
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Edit: @GoTP wow... I'm speechless... :facepalm:
I attempted to facedesk through my laptop. Holy shit.
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Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves
I hope that this is the only song
No, those who say contrary actually understand music, and realize that there is zero musical similarity. It may have a similar vibe and structural similarities, but musically they're almost nothing alike.
Sorry, but I'm not letting MP's underhanded accusations become anything more than the bitter empty words that they are, and he's already given this more attention that it deserves.
I hate the whole lyrical quote thing, but hey it seems entirely appropriate here.
"Hypocrite
How could you be so cruel
and expect my faith in return?"
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I think JP heard the new Red album and wanted to make a song like that. Is this my favorite thing? Not really. I liked when DT's homages to other artists were more subtle, like To Live Forever (obviously U2 inspired, but it's own thing) and Home (the basslines are obviously inspired by Tool, but only a part of a larger musical tapestry). But let's compare that to, say Never Enough. RobWebster said once upon a time he heard a Muse song and thought it was a DT song because it sounded like Never Enough. I don't see how you could ever look at BMUBMD and any Red song and feel the same way.
Do I think it's a bummer DT seems to throw in at least one song per album that's obviously trying to emulate another band to some degree? Yes. But is it MP's place to call it plagiarism? No way. Is it plagiarism? I don't see how.
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This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.
This is not America. This is the internet. A universal forum for a universally known band. Get your head out of the clouds and respect the fact that there are people of other nationalities on this forum, for fuck's sake.
On topic, my take..not plagiarism, just influenced by. BMUBMD has more interesting melodies in my eyes anyway, and makes for a more interesting song.
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This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.
This is not America. This is the internet. A universal forum for a universally known band. Get your head out of the clouds and respect the fact that there are people of other nationalities on this forum, for fuck's sake.
lol
You need to buy a new troll detector, my friend.
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oh and lastly:
MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it’s their choice and doing…not mine!
...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing :-\
He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.
Putting your hands over your eyes does not make you invisible.
This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.
Yeah, bun you!
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Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves
I hope that this is the only song
No, those who say contrary actually understand music, and realize that there is zero musical similarity. It may have a similar vibe and structural similarities, but musically they're almost nothing alike.
:tup Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves
I hope that this is the only song
No, those who say contrary actually understand music, and realize that there is zero musical similarity. It may have a similar vibe and structural similarities, but musically they're almost nothing alike.
Sorry, but I'm not letting MP's underhanded accusations become anything more than the bitter empty words that they are, and he's already given this more attention that it deserves.
I hate the whole lyrical quote thing, but hey it seems entirely appropriate here.
"Hypocrite
How could you be so cruel
and expect my faith in return?"
I agree! Good post! :tup
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He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.
It brings to mind that bit in Star Wars when R5-D4's bad motivator pops, Uncle Owen asks the Jawas what they're trying to push on him and the chief Jawa throws out his arms with a "What, us?" gesture :)
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oh and lastly:
MP:If anybody ELSE wants to blow this up, it’s their choice and doing…not mine!
...really? really? A bad response is clearly going to come from this so actually, it is indeed your doing :-\
He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.
Putting your hands over your eyes does not make you invisible.
It's cowardice pure and simple. All he's done in the last year is push fans away. And I'm one of them.
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This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.
Really?
Really?
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Really, how much harm could this possible do to the band? It's not like DT fans are going to hear about this then suddenly go "what the FUCK, Dream Theater? I may or may not have been ok with the countless other times you've done this sort of thing, but this time I'm through!" They're not going to lose their Grammy nomination over this. This isn't going to sully their name with the general public, since the general public still pretty much has no idea who they are outside of the fact that they recently got a Grammy nomination.
It's not going to do anything other than cause a stink that people will forget about after a few weeks and will only be brought up as another reason for people do dislike MP. It's a non problem; just MP fueling the flames again.
Anytime someone does damage to someones artistic credibility it's a serious thing. Sure they may not be fan-less over the ordeal(s), but at the rate MP keeps chipping away at DT they are going to be so badly wounded in the minds of fans/potential fans that they may avoid them altogether I don't think it's a dire situation or anything, but you can't deny the effect of public image on selling your goods. If it wasn't important the world would be an entirely different place. :lol DT is getting a lot of negative exposure lately, and for a band that didn't exactly have a massive following that is going to hurt them eventually. Now the accusations of plagiarism and copying their own songs are constantly going to be brought up as another reason to hate on them and it undermines all of their music as people are more likely to look for things now that they've "stolen" or "copied". MP's smear campaign, whether intentional or not, is working (look on the RED video atm at the people saying essentially "omg portnoy said DT ripped off this song"). Before, when people said stuff about DT copying songs or whatnot it was by posters and wasn't usually put up in a hugely negative and confrontational way or published as "news" articles (to my knowledge). They were stuffed in forums on the net and most people would have never heard about it. MP has starpower and a pretty large following listening to his every word while he stands on his soapbox of social media and forums though.
Also, it would sully their name with the public because the public doesn't know who they are. All they will hear (theoretically) is the condensed little sound-byte that DT accused of plagiarism, and that's all they will remember. If they ever see something DT in the future they will probably look at it not as favorable (they had no sway at all before, and now they have negative thanks to the accusation, they certainly wouldn't like them more because of plagiarism!)
Anyway, it's not a huge deal either way, but it isn't something that should be downplayed. It has a real effect on their fan-base and careers as well as the public perception of their music. :'( I just wish people would stop exaggerating how similar the songs are for their own desires or bias - including MP.
You're assuming MP's "star power" which I believe he lost when the truth came out about what a tool he is. I don't think most people here give a crap about what he says other than it pisses them off. Far from influencing if they'll continue to likeDT or not.
Also, I see huge similarities between the 2 couldn't careless. It's pretty hard to not see. As to whether or not you believe they did it on purpose and as to whether or not songwrting purity is essential to you is another story as to how it makes you personally feel. Kind of like the way auto mobile makers plagiarise each other all day long, yet we still know who made what! would you not but a Hyudai because it looks like a Toyota? The greatest inventions in the world were built on the work of others.
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You're assuming MP's "star power" which I believe he lost when the truth came out about what a tool he is. I don't think most people here give a crap about what he says other than it pisses them off. Far from influencing if they'll continue to likeDT or not.
I don't think the people here are exactly the intended "audience" for his comments. If you think MP has no fans or fame at all anymore I think that would be wishful thinking on your part. Didn't he even just recently film some clips for a VH1 show about metal history (did anyone else from DT? I don't know I just saw the bit about him)? Every time he speaks it makes headlines to some degree, even if it might be crappy online news sites lol. He's no mega-star, but he does have a fair bit of recognition out there at this point.
He loves that " It was someone else your honour - not me ! " doesn't he.
It brings to mind that bit in Star Wars when R5-D4's bad motivator pops, Uncle Owen asks the Jawas what they're trying to push on him and the chief Jawa throws out his arms with a "What, us?" gesture :)
lmao, nice :rollin :rollin
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This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.
Really?
Really?
I was hoping the speaking "American" would be the biggest hint that I was joking.
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Hey, I'm one of the biggest Petrucci fans out there, but I do think he sometimes crosses the line between inspiration and plagiarism. This isn't the first time this has happened. There's the Priest / ITPOE debacle from a while back, then after JP toured with Satriani in G3, there were some eerily similar riffs popping up in DT songs:
Check out the rhythm in 0:15 in Satriani's New Last Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-KL1zoWe0
Sound familiar? Check out the rhythm in 2:40 of A Nightmare to Remember
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOW28D27ybM
Or check out the solo to Constant Motion and compare it to Satriani's "War"
....and then there's the whole ADTOE / IAW thing.
I don't Petrucci is looking to plagiarize directly, but you can see why people are starting to question it.... and this is coming from a Petrucci fanboy.
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There really is no ADTOE/IaW thing. That whole crackpot theory was tinfoil hat level of comparison, and yet another case of MP intentionally force feeding fuel onto a non-existent fire. And yet people still bring it up as if it's more "proof". The only thing it's proved is MP's desperation to discredit DT without him.
If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.
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If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.
That would actually make for an interesting experiment you know! :lol
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If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.
That would actually make for an interesting experiment you know! :lol
Don't think I didn't consider the very same thing myself. :lol
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Hey, I'm one of the biggest Petrucci fans out there, but I do think he sometimes crosses the line between inspiration and plagiarism. This isn't the first time this has happened. There's the Priest / ITPOE debacle from a while back, then after JP toured with Satriani in G3, there were some eerily similar riffs popping up in DT songs:
Check out the rhythm in 0:15 in Satriani's New Last Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-KL1zoWe0
Sound familiar? Check out the rhythm in 2:40 of A Nightmare to Remember
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOW28D27ybM
Or check out the solo to Constant Motion and compare it to Satriani's "War"
....and then there's the whole ADTOE / IAW thing.
I don't Petrucci is looking to plagiarize directly, but you can see why people are starting to question it.... and this is coming from a Petrucci fanboy.
In your Satriani example Petrucci didn't cross the line at all. Sorry but I think that was a bad example.
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If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.
That would actually make for an interesting experiment you know! :lol
Don't think I didn't consider the very same thing myself. :lol
I actually want someone to start a rumour like this just to get MP to take the bait..
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There really is no ADTOE/IaW thing. That whole crackpot theory was tinfoil hat level of comparison, and yet another case of MP intentionally force feeding fuel onto a non-existent fire. And yet people still bring it up as if it's more "proof". The only thing it's proved is MP's desperation to discredit DT without him.
Dude, I'm sorry, but there IS a ADTOE/IaW thing. It's not negative, but it's definitely there. When a friend first told me about the OTBOA/PMU similarity, I told him he's talking bs. But then I actually sat down and compared and it's true. It follows the exact same structure. Same with LNF/UAGM and BAL/LTL. I see it as a very cool thing, but you can't deny that it's there. You can tell me what you want. Again: it's a very COOL thing and NOT negative and you may not notice it from only listening to ADTOE, but if you actually sit down and listen to each song respectively, compare the single bits and the structure, you can't deny that this is some intentional nod to IaW.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIX7WkBl8nA&feature=related
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Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation. The entire comparison held almost zero value to me.
There were similarities in structure alone with OTBOA, but considering the simpler structure, that's not really surprising or damning. Beyond that, most of it was a huge stretch, and didn't work even when simplified to "section with guitar followed by section with vocals", and had to completely ignore all instrumental sections to force the square peg into the Majesty-shaped hole.
And can people stop with this "you can't deny it's there" BS argument that I'm seeing littered all throughout this thread? Speaking in absolutes does not make a valid argument method.
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Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation. The entire comparison held almost zero value to me.
There were similarities in structure alone with OTBOA, but considering the simpler structure, that's not really surprising or damning. Beyond that, most of it was a huge stretch, and didn't work even when simplified to "section with guitar followed by section with vocals", and had to completely ignore all instrumental sections to force the square peg into the Majesty-shaped hole.
And can people stop with this "you can't deny it's there" BS argument that I'm seeing littered all throughout this thread? Speaking in absolutes does not make a valid argument method.
Okay I'm quiet, master.
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Plagiarism is a huge freaking deal. Plagiarize in university and you generally get kicked out and you get a stamp on your records saying you did.
And given the fact that the core founding members of the band started out at a world-renowned music college, MP knows the significance of making such a allegation against his former band mates. It's pretty much the nastiest thing he could accuse them of.
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Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation. The entire comparison held almost zero value to me.
There were similarities in structure alone with OTBOA, but considering the simpler structure, that's not really surprising or damning. Beyond that, most of it was a huge stretch, and didn't work even when simplified to "section with guitar followed by section with vocals", and had to completely ignore all instrumental sections to force the square peg into the Majesty-shaped hole.
And can people stop with this "you can't deny it's there" BS argument that I'm seeing littered all throughout this thread? Speaking in absolutes does not make a valid argument method.
Okay, I'm quiet, master.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as a dick, I'm just burned out on that whole thing after the numerous threads on it the first time around. :lol
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If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.
Wait... Mario Party 4 ripped off Images & Words?
:neverusethis:
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Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation. The entire comparison held almost zero value to me.
There were similarities in structure alone with OTBOA, but considering the simpler structure, that's not really surprising or damning. Beyond that, most of it was a huge stretch, and didn't work even when simplified to "section with guitar followed by section with vocals", and had to completely ignore all instrumental sections to force the square peg into the Majesty-shaped hole.
And can people stop with this "you can't deny it's there" BS argument that I'm seeing littered all throughout this thread? Speaking in absolutes does not make a valid argument method.
Okay, I'm quiet, master.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across as a dick, I'm just burned out on that whole thing after the numerous threads on it the first time around. :lol
So, you don't think it was intentional? Because that was the only thing I was saying (hence the "it's not negative").
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This is America. It's "honor". Learn to speak American, for fuck's sake.
Really?
Really?
I was hoping the speaking "American" would be the biggest hint that I was joking.
Well, knowing you, I was really hoping that was the case. :biggrin:
If I posted right now that Breaking All Illusions was plagiarized from Mario Party 4, you can bet he'd be posting it an hour later on mp.com and claiming he noticed it right away when he played it last night with his children.
That would actually make for an interesting experiment you know! :lol
Don't think I didn't consider the very same thing myself. :lol
DO IT
As far as the ADTOE/I&W thing, I see some similarities between PMU and OTBOA, and some similarities between BAI and LTL (the beginnings of the songs), but that's it. And there is no problem with either.
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So, you don't think it was intentional? Because that was the only thing I was saying (hence the "it's not negative").
I get what you're saying, and I'm not denying it just because I perceive it as negative (which I don't). I hear the basis for the comparison of OTBOA/PMU, and the intro/chorus of LNF reminded me of UAGM from the start, but aside from that I found the rest of that comparison to be very forced based on trying to expand on the idea, and ignored a lot of what didn't fit the theory imo.
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So, you don't think it was intentional? Because that was the only thing I was saying (hence the "it's not negative").
I get what you're saying, and I'm not denying it just because I perceive it as negative (which I don't). I hear the basis for the comparison of OTBOA/PMU, and the intro/chorus of LNF reminded me of UAGM from the start, but aside from that I found the rest of that comparison to be very forced based on trying to expand on the idea, and ignored a lot of what didn't fit the theory imo.
Well, that sounds like the only two options are there are either slight similarities or it is completely structurally copied. I think it's neither - there are strong structural similarities. That's why some things do not fit of course, but it's more than just a chorus.
For example check out 04:45 in LTL and 05:02 in BAI. I just feel it's an hommage to that amazing Kevin Moore moment being the beginning of the instrumental section for both songs. And that's a very awesome thing.
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Well, that sounds like the only two options are there are either slight similarities or it is completely structurally copied. I think it's neither - there are strong structural similarities. That's why some things do not fit of course, but it's more than just a chorus.
Aside from OTBOA, I don't believe any of them were strong structural similarities, which to me disproves that there was any intentional influence going on. I find the rest to be coincidental similarities, or similarities that people are only looking for because of the theory. I could say the piano break in Blind Faith is an intentional nugget to the LTL piano section, and it's just as valid a theory, but nobody mentions it because they're not trying to force it to fit a theory.
Most of the IaW/ADTOE comparison feels like he found a few vague similarities, then went looking for more to try and fit the idea. To me it's the very definition of a conspiracy theory.
And again, I'd like to reiterate that either way, I don't see it as a bad thing. A structural similarity is a fairly trivial thing for DT to copy from an old song, and musically they're completely different.
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Well, that sounds like the only two options are there are either slight similarities or it is completely structurally copied. I think it's neither - there are strong structural similarities. That's why some things do not fit of course, but it's more than just a chorus.
And again, I'd like to reiterate that either way, I don't see it as a bad thing. A structural similarity is a fairly trivial thing for DT to copy from an old song, and musically they're completely different.
Uhm, yeah, exactly. I tried to underline that as well. That was what I meant with "very cool" and "awesome". Your response was "Whether it's negative or positive has no bearing on the reality of the situation."
Well, doesn't matter, back to topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fF8wU4Nl9Y
Blatant plagiarism, Mr. Portnoy, how couldn't you notice? :o
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I've listened to both songs back to back a couple times...and there is no denying the influence....but that's about it IMO. BMU/BMD was influenced by that song in the same veing as the handful of other DT songs that have been mentioned thus far were influenced by thier respective songs. That's it. To get all in a tizzy about how the heck a Verse/Chorus/Verse is placed or having the same 'sound' or 'feel' is silly.....Nothing new here other than the fact there is a very sour ex-member our there lamenting his decision to leave DT through high school like tauntings. For MP (or anyone else) to specifically imply outright plagerism is ridiculous, it really is.
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Yes, influence is a lot different to plagiarism. Solitary Shell has an obvious and intentional influence from Solsbury Hill to me, but that's not plagiarism, and nor is BMUBMD in any way. I don't see how BMUBMD is any different to any prior DT song here.
Plagiarism is about directly lifting something musically, rather than merely copying a style or vibe. Reusing a chord progression, or a riff, or a melody is probably a bare minimum necessary to claim plagiarism in a court. Not sure that structure alone has ever been enough to claim plagiarism, especially as it's fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things. But plagiarism is a serious accusation regardless, and shouldn't be made as an off the cuff comment. It's disrespectful and slanderous imo.
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Plagiarism is about directly lifting something musically, rather than merely copying a style or vibe. Reusing a chord progression, or a riff, or a melody is probably a bare minimum necessary to claim plagiarism in a court. Not sure that structure alone has ever been enough to claim plagiarism, especially as it's fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things.
Well, there you go.
The end.
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I think by law, in order to plagiarize a melody, it has to be 8 notes in succession that are exactly the same.
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I think by law, in order to plagiarize a melody, it has to be 8 notes in succession that are exactly the same.
Though this indeed could be accurate, I highly doubt it. I mean, if this were the case, musicians wouldn't really have any room for creativity if they were too busy wondering if "this 8-note succession" had been used before.
Everything boils down to a "musical similarity" which in and of itself is highly ambiguous. Plagiarism in any artistic venue is a serious issue. Throwing around unsubstantiated accusations of such an act is pretty demeaning, especially in the way MP chose to do so.
Let's take a journey back to when we were toddlers: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all."
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Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube. I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie." It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine." Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc. Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.
My take on JP's riff is that artists are always influenced by other artists and try to take a theme and make it their own, or make it better. I mean, how many movies have you seen that have a similar plot or theme? I can name at least half a dozen movies that are about body swapping: "Freaky Friday," "13 Going on 30," "The Change Up." Art influences art. It always has, it always will.
Anyway, I really hope MP makes a New Years resolution to stop his DT bickering.
Argh! I hate it when they screw with the pitch/tuning to make it sound more similar. Butt yeah, they do sound similar...probably as much as this Red song sounds like that riff in Build Me Up Break Me Down.
Anyway, Dream Theater should love Portnoy right now. If this thread is any representation of their fans, Dream Theater will see that most fans are much more concerned with Portnoy's attitude than Dream Theater chooses to incorporate their..."inspiration" into their music :lol
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Kinda bored today and I decided to check out some Adrenaline Mob on YouTube. I stumbled upon a video in which someone compares an Adrenaline Mob riff to Dream Theater's "Lie." It's vaguely similar, in my opinion, to the same degree that DT's "BMU BMD" riff is similar to Red's "Feed the Machine." Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nKPqX2HWbc. Just throwing this out there because I thought it fits theme of this thread.
My take on JP's riff is that artists are always influenced by other artists and try to take a theme and make it their own, or make it better. I mean, how many movies have you seen that have a similar plot or theme? I can name at least half a dozen movies that are about body swapping: "Freaky Friday," "13 Going on 30," "The Change Up." Art influences art. It always has, it always will.
Anyway, I really hope MP makes a New Years resolution to stop his DT bickering.
Argh! I hate it when they screw with the pitch/tuning to make it sound more similar.
"Making it sound more similar" is not the point of pitching it down / up. The point is that you can copy a melody in every key. The similarity is already there; changing the pitch only helps noticing it.
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Check out the rhythm in 0:15 in Satriani's New Last Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-KL1zoWe0
Sound familiar? Check out the rhythm in 2:40 of A Nightmare to Remember
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOW28D27ybM
again, for me definitely not plagiarism, just influences. if anything it sounds like an Opeth riff which I can't put into my mind at the moment. but that's a completely different matter.
....and then there's the whole ADTOE / IAW thing.
which we all know by now to be, of course, completely true! :tdwn
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I'm not 100% sure of the time line, but the Red album was released at the first of Feb 2011. DT was in the studio, but weren't most of the songs pretty much written by then? I could still see a little "flavor" rubbing off on JP at this time, but the thought of him running out to Best Buy to get the newest Red CD and (greedily ripping the wrapping off while fiendishly looking left and right) then just happening to have a "new" song for the guys to hear, just doesn't work for me.
And I'm no song writer, but it almost seems that all the talk of copying structure, etc....well, seems it would be easier to write a new song than to try and take someone else's work and write your version while trying to change it just enough so that no one would notice....but I'm an admitted loyal fanboy.
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It's far from perfect, but the Wiki on musical plagiarism provides a pretty good amount of info on the topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_plagiarism
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Personally I hate that the notion of musical plagiarism even exists in our society. How can you plagiarize something artistic? Some of the most legendary musicians of all time made careers out of 'plagiarizing' other works of art. It was incredibly common among Classical and Jazz greats of their time. As music become more of a business over the decades, the idea of plagiarism became more of a taboo, which I think is antithetic to the idea of art. I don't think it's fair to tell an artist that they can't express themselves in a certain way because some other artist has already done it and holds the patent on it. The more music becomes industry and the less it becomes art, the worse it is IMO.
I think the only thing artists should be able to claim as their own work for intellectual property reasons are recordings. In other words, I think an artist should still have to pay royalties/secure licensing to sample another artists recording, since a recording represents a tangible asset.
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I'm not 100% sure of the time line, but the Red album was released at the first of Feb 2011. DT was in the studio, but weren't most of the songs pretty much written by then? I could still see a little "flavor" rubbing off on JP at this time, but the thought of him running out to Best Buy to get the newest Red CD and (greedily ripping the wrapping off while fiendishly looking left and right) then just happening to have a "new" song for the guys to hear, just doesn't work for me.
And I'm no song writer, but it almost seems that all the talk of copying structure, etc....well, seems it would be easier to write a new song than to try and take someone else's work and write your version while trying to change it just enough so that no one would notice....but I'm an admitted loyal fanboy.
I thought that the album was already written by then too. If that's the case, then, yes, I can't see JP hearing this song, saying HOLD THE PHONE and writing a new song to record based on how much he liked this CD.
Mind you I don't think that happened if the album wasn't written before February, but there you go.
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Has anyone checked to see if RED has made any comments about this? (I have, but haven't seen any). I would like to hear their take on it. I did notice some pretty strong similarities in the structure, but nothing appears to be note-for-note.
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Has anyone checked to see if RED has made any comments about this? (I have, but haven't seen any). I would like to hear their take on it. I did notice some pretty strong similarities in the structure, but nothing appears to be note-for-note.
'
They're probably taking the DT route and saying "lolMP"
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This ADTOE / IAW thing keeps getting resurrected from the dead like Frankenstein. How about just letting it die? It's not even part of this threads topic. Just a distraction.
NOBODY is going to "convince" anybody to change their minds or believe them. Why waste your fingers...... like I just did. ???
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This ADTOE / IAW thing keeps getting resurrected from the dead like Frankenstein. How about just letting it die? It's not even part of this threads topic. Just a distraction.
NOBODY is going to "convince" anybody to change their minds or believe them. Why waste your fingers...... like I just did. ???
Because, it's all a conspiracy - man. The Illuminati, cabal of Zionist bankers, New World order...look it up bro
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Personally I hate that the notion of musical plagiarism even exists in our society. How can you plagiarize something artistic? Some of the most legendary musicians of all time made careers out of 'plagiarizing' other works of art. It was incredibly common among Classical and Jazz greats of their time. As music become more of a business over the decades, the idea of plagiarism became more of a taboo, which I think is antithetic to the idea of art. I don't think it's fair to tell an artist that they can't express themselves in a certain way because some other artist has already done it and holds the patent on it. The more music becomes industry and the less it becomes art, the worse it is IMO.
I think the only thing artists should be able to claim as their own work for intellectual property reasons are recordings. In other words, I think an artist should still have to pay royalties/secure licensing to sample another artists recording, since a recording represents a tangible asset.
Plagiarism exists. It is a very real problem in the music industry (which is, by the way, unavoidably an industry).
Case in point: Sweet Little Sixteen ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzY28Unb3v0 ) preceded Surfin' USA ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKNM6fAiJjs ). The Beach Boys heard Berry's song and wrote Surfin' USA without giving Berry credit. Berry did work in composing the song which he did not get credit for when The Beach Boys modified it sparsely.
EDIT: BMUBMD, however? Not plagiarism. Not even a little.
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Look, if this were almost any band other than DT, it wouldn't be an issue. Didn't Metallica rip off Motorhead? Or every doom band ever rip off Sabbath? Or every power metal band rip off Iron Maiden? There's a reason that those bands are influential - people are inspired by them. Heck, DT has inspired lots of musicians themselves. And here's another thing, this is not the core of the DT sound. BMUBMD is not one of the better, or more representative songs from the album. He was inspired by the song, and then used it. More power to him.
Seriously, it's only because there is a cadre of hard core DT fans who are super into musicianship and take DT very seriously (and that's a good thing), that this is even an issue. I was actually trying to explain the Thiago controversy to my buddy (who owns a number of DT albums, BTW), and he literally looked at me like I was crazy. This is all blown way out of proportion.
Now, the real story here is the Portnoy thing. Seriously, people just need to ignore him. It's gotten to the point where it's just not worth it.
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It's really a shame what Portnoy posted. I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous. I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.
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It's really a shame what Portnoy posted. I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous. I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.
Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....
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It's really a shame what Portnoy posted. I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous. I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.
Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....
Yeah I agree.
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It's really a shame what Portnoy posted. I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous. I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.
Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....
Yeah I agree.
Yeah, think of the kids (US) Portnoy's just being a dick to us fans. It's like Dad saying mom's a slut.
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It's really a shame what Portnoy posted. I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous. I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.
Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....
Yeah I agree.
Yeah, think of the kids (US) ... It's like Dad saying mom's a slut.
Nice one. Maybe the marriage analogy can be fun :lol
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It's really a shame what Portnoy posted. I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous. I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.
Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....
Yeah I agree.
Yeah, think of the kids (US) ... It's like Dad saying mom's a slut.
Nice one. Maybe the marriage analogy can be fun :lol
Turnaround IS fair play.
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It's really a shame what Portnoy posted. I mean calling out DT for plagiarism is slanderous. I get the feeling that Portnoy wants to be back in DT really really bad, but he can't so he's just going to be taking shots to them here or there.
Well, the way you get back with an estrainged wife doesn't include beating her up. Id say the "divorce" here has been more than finalized. It looks like a restraining order could be next....
Yeah I agree.
Yeah, think of the kids (US) Portnoy's just being a dick to us fans. It's like Dad saying mom's a slut.
Especially when the "mother" is someone who has done nothing out of line.
Wait. On another note, can we keep the family analogies and divorce analogies out of this, too? I certainly don't want to see anymore making those analogies after it's been done a million times already. :lol
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You want plagiarism? I'll give you plagiarism.
Compare this (released in '95):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr1AfObw5fI
with The Ytse Jam (you can hear it in the first few seconds itself).
This is plagiarism. Not BMU, BMD.
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Thats so weird. When I heard BMUBMD for the first time, Red was the first (and only band) I kept hearing in my head while it was playing, but it wasn't this song.
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The only part I think is actually close to the DT song is 58 seconds into the Red song. That's the only real similarity I hear. The other stuff is kinda similar but not really.
Also in before Louie Louie/Wild Thing/Twist and Shout
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I started a Red thread here at one point, can't seem to find it though. They really aren't like DT at all, but totally kick ass for being a Christian rock band. I have seen them twice, they put on a hell of a show.
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Also in before Louie Louie/Wild Thing/Twist and Shout
Twist and shout sounds nothing like Louie Louie and Wild thing. :|
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This ADTOE / IAW thing keeps getting resurrected from the dead like Frankenstein. How about just letting it die? It's not even part of this threads topic. Just a distraction.
NOBODY is going to "convince" anybody to change their minds or believe them. Why waste your fingers...... like I just did. ???
Because, it's all a conspiracy - man. The Illuminati, cabal of Zionist bankers, New World order...look it up bro
Or, check out A Rite of Passage for the handy-dandy theme park version. The clues were there! It's a confession! BREAK THEIR LEGS!
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robwebster! Great to see you :tup
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robwebster! Great to see you :tup
Thanks, you too! These absences would be a lot easier if Mike Portnoy didn't keep saying silly things, as though it's the world's second worst superpower. Then, trying to take them back, like it's the world's first worst. Still, just another day in the high-octane life of Now-wait-a-minute Man! The world's bitterest superhero.
Well, Robin notwithstanding. Do sidekicks count as superheroes?
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Back in my home country I was playing with a band that had this modern/symphonic/Gothic/metal-with-female-vocals style. The band was funded by the keyboard player long before Evanescence was popular, yet the styles were similar. The thing is, when I first heard Forsaken, I was astonished as to how similar the bridge to one of our songs was. This song was written by the keyboard player several years before he first heard Evanescence, and he's no Dream Theater fan at all, yet the coincidence is there. I used to joke with my friends telling them that we became so popular that even Dream Theater copied us ;D
My point is, Dream Theater made back then a song trying to recreate the Evanescence style. Evanescence wasn't inventing anything either, and certainly so wasn't my old band, but all in all there was A STYLE, a VIBE, and when you write music in a certain style and with a certain vibe, coincidences do happen.
Dream Theater had been widely known by recreating styles and vibes they feel influenced from at the moment, being metal, prog, nu metal or whatever, and that is something Portnoy was widely responsible for. So what I see here now is that DT have a song, BMUBMD, that goes in the same style and vibe of a Red song, but also of countless nu metal songs!!! Whether that is good or bad is up to everyone to judge, but it's certainly not a new thing for DT to do, and that's why I think Portnoy is acting totally immature and just points finger to discredit his former band.
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Great Similarities out There . Almost Copy/Paste . Those who say the contrary are just lying to themselves
I hope that this is the only song
No, those who say contrary actually understand music, and realize that there is zero musical similarity. It may have a similar vibe and structural similarities, but musically they're almost nothing alike.
Sorry, but I'm not letting MP's underhanded accusations become anything more than the bitter empty words that they are, and he's already given this more attention that it deserves.
I hate the whole lyrical quote thing, but hey it seems entirely appropriate here.
"Hypocrite
How could you be so cruel
and expect my faith in return?"
lol on the quote
i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore
what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.
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What has DT done to lose class? Unless you are trolling in which case so be it.
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I started a Red thread here at one point, can't seem to find it though. They really aren't like DT at all, but totally kick ass for being a Christian rock band. I have seen them twice, they put on a hell of a show.
You mean a heavenly show!
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i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore
what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.
Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".
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robwebster! Great to see you :tup
Thanks, you too! These absences would be a lot easier if Mike Portnoy didn't keep saying silly things, as though it's the world's second worst superpower. Then, trying to take them back, like it's the world's first worst. Still, just another day in the high-octane life of Now-wait-a-minute Man! The world's bitterest superhero.[/b][/color]Well, Robin notwithstanding. Do sidekicks count as superheroes?
Pure gold !
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Hey, I'm one of the biggest Petrucci fans out there, but I do think he sometimes crosses the line between inspiration and plagiarism. This isn't the first time this has happened. There's the Priest / ITPOE debacle from a while back, then after JP toured with Satriani in G3, there were some eerily similar riffs popping up in DT songs:
Check out the rhythm in 0:15 in Satriani's New Last Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-KL1zoWe0
Sound familiar? Check out the rhythm in 2:40 of A Nightmare to Remember
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOW28D27ybM
Or check out the solo to Constant Motion and compare it to Satriani's "War"
....and then there's the whole ADTOE / IAW thing.
I don't Petrucci is looking to plagiarize directly, but you can see why people are starting to question it.... and this is coming from a Petrucci fanboy.
In your Satriani example Petrucci didn't cross the line at all. Sorry but I think that was a bad example.
Are you kidding? Listen to the RHYTHM, not the lead. If you transcribed the notes and superimposed them over one another, there would be very few differences.
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Hey, I'm one of the biggest Petrucci fans out there, but I do think he sometimes crosses the line between inspiration and plagiarism. This isn't the first time this has happened. There's the Priest / ITPOE debacle from a while back, then after JP toured with Satriani in G3, there were some eerily similar riffs popping up in DT songs:
Check out the rhythm in 0:15 in Satriani's New Last Jam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-KL1zoWe0
Sound familiar? Check out the rhythm in 2:40 of A Nightmare to Remember
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOW28D27ybM
Or check out the solo to Constant Motion and compare it to Satriani's "War"
....and then there's the whole ADTOE / IAW thing.
I don't Petrucci is looking to plagiarize directly, but you can see why people are starting to question it.... and this is coming from a Petrucci fanboy.
In your Satriani example Petrucci didn't cross the line at all. Sorry but I think that was a bad example.
Are you kidding? Listen to the RHYTHM, not the lead. If you transcribed the notes and superimposed them over one another, there would be very few differences.
No I am not kidding.
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Also in before Louie Louie/Wild Thing/Twist and Shout
Twist and shout sounds nothing like Louie Louie and Wild thing. :|
Oh yeah you are right. I meant twist and shout/la bamba
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You want plagiarism? I'll give you plagiarism.
Compare this (released in '95):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr1AfObw5fI
with The Ytse Jam (you can hear it in the first few seconds itself).
This is plagiarism. Not BMU, BMD.
Also not plagiarism.
Same with the Satch example above.
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What has DT done to lose class? Unless you are trolling in which case so be it.
I'm going to take a stab at it, but I bet it has something to do with one 'Mike Mangini' being the drummer of DT and not one 'Mike Portnoy.'
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Not surprised to notice that MP did not include ADTOE in his 2011 top 10 CDs list. :lol
Even more unsurprisingly, I'm pretty sure most of his latest projects won't appear in my 2012 top 10. :)
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None of Portnoy's projects made my 2012 " Give a flying shit " list. :)
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JP should pull a George Lucas and green-screen Mangini in MP's place for a Budokan/Score re-release. for the lulz
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JP should pull a George Lucas and green-screen Mangini in MP's place for a Budokan/Score re-release. for the lulz
(https://www.johnpetrucci.com/images/DSC_4574.jpg)
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(https://www.johnpetrucci.com/images/DSC_4574.jpg)
HE FINALLY QUIT THE BAND ! I'M SO HAPPY RIGHT NOW !!!
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(https://www.johnpetrucci.com/images/DSC_4574.jpg)
"Hey James, guess what. I hacked Syn Gates email and offerred MP a job, let's see what happens" !!
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Not surprised to notice that MP did not include ADTOE in his 2011 top 10 CDs list. :lol
Not sure if he doesn't like it, he took it out of consideration because it's too hard for him to rank it fairly, or he realizes that including it anywhere on the list would be too controversial. Probably a combination of the three.
And as far as his own projects not being on there, I think he routinely excludes his own projects from those lists, doesn't he? I know he's proud of his work on Neal Morse's album, but that one isn't on there.
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Not surprised to notice that MP did not include ADTOE in his 2011 top 10 CDs list. :lol
Not sure if he doesn't like it, he took it out of consideration because it's too hard for him to rank it fairly, or he realizes that including it anywhere on the list would be too controversial. Probably a combination of the three.
And as far as his own projects not being on there, I think he routinely excludes his own projects from those lists, doesn't he? I know he's proud of his work on Neal Morse's album, but that one isn't on there.
Usually he adds "... and of course: ..." and then lists the stuff he's involved in. That doesn't mean he's any less proud of Testimony 2 I guess, it's just a formal thing.
About ADTOE: I think it's not even a matter of him liking it or not, it's just that he'd never admit it to himself if he did like it.
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I like Feed the Machine better, but the riffs in BMU BMD are sooooooooo much more kick ass..
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None of Portnoy's projects made my 2012 " Give a flying shit " list. :)
I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album. Amob and his Sykes project on the other side don't excite me at all.
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I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.
As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.
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i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore
what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.
Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".
at least they don't copy
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That's funny, because For Whom The Bell Tolls has a riff that's about as similar to Black Sabbath's Fairies Wear Boots' ending riff as the intros of these two songs.
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didnt Metallica also plagiarise part of This Dying Soul when they were writing Blackened?
;)
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i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore
what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.
Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".
at least they don't copy
Where is this 'copying' that you are referring to?
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Yes, Metalica is WAY more special :lol
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I saw this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjlKPTfCpPc&feature=related) earlier while looking around on Youtube at a couple of Lars videos (don't ask :|), and what this person has done to their "Lars Auditions for DT" video is just plain ignorant. I mean, I respect that the uploader "made" the video as much as someone can using a bunch of spliced copyrighted clips, and that they have the right to an opinion and to do whatever they want to their video, but this person is just clueless! They force an overlay over the entire screen using caps on key words like it's something written by MP, to emphasize just how badly DT has plagiarized RED, and how EVERYONE MUST SEE IT NAO!!! wording it to sound like DT plagiarized the entire album because of the spurious plagiarism argument against BMU;BMD. I mean, honestly, he/she claims, I quote, "The Introduction, Pre-Chorus, Chorus, and Verses sound identical." I'll give you the similarities in the intro and verse (though light-years from identical), but to say that the chorus sounds AT ALL identical is just straight up lying, and just shows how desperate they are to try and make this accusation true regardless of the reality. It just annoys me because this video has had 2/3 the traffic part one of "The Spirit Carries On" documentary has had. That's quite a bit of people that could potentially see this drivel (most of those were from before this drama and he added the overlay, but having Lars in it guarantees a good bit of traffic over time I'm sure). *head>desk*
A lot of people don't seem to understand what actual plagiarism (especially something labeled as identical) sounds like. The Ghostbusters theme (Ray Parker Jr.) ripping off Huey Lewis' "I Want a New Drug" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mqZrHPGuBo&feature=related) (and both seem to have ripped off M's - Pop Muzik (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avvh5H-EPWU) :lol) or Beach Boy's "Surfin' USA" ripping off Chuck Berry's "Sweet Little Sixteen" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le51jB37Fro) (man, this one copies the music, the vocal melodies and even basically goes thesaurus on half the lyrics!) are just a couple of examples of plagiarism off the top of my head.
:sadpanda: *vent off*
Update: As of 2011-12-22 it seems the uploader has removed the overlay from the "Lars Auditions" video, and removed the RED vs DT video. The RED vs DT video is back up by another account, no idea if it's the same owner, but regardless the stupid stuff and dramatics seem to be gone and it is simply A/Bing the songs and letting the listener decide as it should have originally. So, kudos to the uploader for taking all of the immature stuff down, and (assuming they re-upped it on another account of theirs and it wasn't someone else) for presenting the video with some class! :hat
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i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore
what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.
Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".
at least they don't copy
Where is this 'copying' that you are referring to?
id love to hear the answer but if you look at his posts he's either a bad troll, or mad mp fanboy
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I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.
As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.
That "condition" is known as bias. ;)
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You want plagiarism? I'll give you plagiarism.
Compare this (released in '95):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr1AfObw5fI
with The Ytse Jam (you can hear it in the first few seconds itself).
This is plagiarism. Not BMU, BMD.
Also not plagiarism.
I'm not entirely sure that, if this (the initial riff) is not a ripoff, then what is. The only thing that separates the two riffs is that the German band couldn't play it in the twisted time sigs as DT, so they converted it into something easier for them
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I'm not entirely sure that, if this (the initial riff) is not a ripoff, then what is. The only thing that separates the two riffs (even the keys are same) is that the German band couldn't play it in the twisted time sigs as DT, so they converted it into something easier for them
Far more than that separates the two riffs. It's not merely the Ytse Jam riff put into 4/4, if that's what you're suggesting. What similarities there are kind of fall away after a few beats anyway.
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I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.
As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.
That "condition" is known as bias. ;)
:facepalm: Yikes! You're probably right...I was hoping it was something far more involved and made me look like less of an ass.... :laugh: I honestly have allowed these new 'feelings' I've developed for MP to influence my musical enjoyment.... :tdwn
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I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.
As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.
That "condition" is known as bias. ;)
:facepalm: Yikes! You're probably right...I was hoping it was something far more involved and made me look like less of an ass.... :laugh: I honestly have allowed these new 'feelings' I've developed for MP to influence my musical enjoyment.... :tdwn
You're not an ass, and neither am I, it's perfectly fine to feel this way.
Up until now, I've bought everything MP has made even if I didn't like it or cared for it (OSI, Transatlantic, Avenged Sevenfold, certain Ytsejam stuff, etc) just so I could support him and his talent. Now this is some sad fallout of his drama and his own undoing and I'm sure I'm not the only one doing this either. I really have no desire to have anything to do with MP or anything he's attached to. And at this point right now I hope MP never does anything with DT ever again and no matter how many things he does at the same time will matter to me either.
Sad but true.
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I honestly have allowed these new 'feelings' I've developed for MP to influence my musical enjoyment.... :tdwn
I can't say that, but I will say that the greatness of the new album has reminded me of how great this band is when everything is clicking just right, and it really reminds me of how much Portnoy's personality had become ingrained with the band's sound, whether it being influences from a certain kind of metal, his attempts at singing, or whatever. Back in the 90s, before he took over complete control, they had a specific sound and vibe. It is hard to put my finger on what exactly it all is, but I just know that when I listen to ADTOE, it has that kind of classic DT sound that was so awesome during the 90s. I find that, as much as I have listened to the band in the last few months, aside from a few standout songs, I have barely listened to any of the material from 2003-2009.
I am likely to not be as excited to check out any new projects that Portnoy is a part of, but I am not jumping ship on Transatlantic or Neal Morse's solo stuff.
Speaking of Neal, Portnoy's tweets during the Neal Morse spring tour was a clear example of how everything has to be about him. He tweeted several times about the show coming up that night, calling it the NM/MP extravaganza. Uh, what? I am pretty sure it was a Neal Morse show, not a Neal Morse and Mike Portnoy show, but naturally Portnoy had to give himself equal billing when tweeting about it, while not giving Randy George, who is just as much a part of Neal's studio band as Portnoy is, a mention. Not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but it is just another example of how his mind works: it is always about him.
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i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore
what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.
Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".
at least they don't copy
Where is this 'copying' that you are referring to?
id love to hear the answer but if you look at his posts he's either a bad troll, or mad mp fanboy
in this very song . what i don't understand is WHY you are Blind About IT . and also you (Some of u in this Forum)
keep Bragging about understanding Music . I Heard the 2 Songs and they are Copy/Paste for Me nothing will Change
it and secondly i am not a troll (WTF) nor an MP Fanboy . i just think that people here are too attached to the band to give objective opinion . my 2cents
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i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore
what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.
Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".
at least they don't copy
Where is this 'copying' that you are referring to?
id love to hear the answer but if you look at his posts he's either a bad troll, or mad mp fanboy
in this very song . what i don't understand is WHY you are Blind About IT . and also you (Some of u in this Forum)
keep Bragging about understanding Music . I Heard the 2 Songs and they are Copy/Paste for Me nothing will Change
it and secondly i am not a troll (WTF) nor an MP Fanboy . i just think that people here are too attached to the band to give objective opinion . my 2cents
Yeah, and systematically bashing the band doen't make you an objective observer either. Frankly, we know your opinion on DT as of late, there's no need to try and force it down our throats. Sometimes, I wonder if you're not Thiago. Really...
B.Lee
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...but I will say that the greatness of the new album has reminded me of how great this band is when everything is clicking just right, and it really reminds me of how much Portnoy's personality had become ingrained with the band's sound, whether it being influences from a certain kind of metal, his attempts at singing, or whatever. Back in the 90s, before he took over complete control, they had a specific sound and vibe. It is hard to put my finger on what exactly it all is, but I just know that when I listen to ADTOE, it has that kind of classic DT sound that was so awesome during the 90s. I find that, as much as I have listened to the band in the last few months, aside from a few standout songs, I have barely listened to any of the material from 2003-2009.
This is what I should have said Kev....sums up my thoughts perfectly. I know what you are talking about when you try and describe that certain 'something' that DT posessed back before the clutch of MP had a firm grasp on things. Again I agree that ADTOE tapped into that 'classic DT' vibe in such a positive way.....it was SO refreshing! I've been craving thier next album since about one week after ADTOE was released!
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I am excited for Flying Colors. Seems like it could be a really interesting album.
As am I...but I've noticed lately and I don't know if there is a diagnosed 'condition' for this....but the more and more I become turned off by MP 'the person' and the way he is handling/has handled this whole ordeal....the less interested I am in his upcoming music (even the Morse related stuff) and oddly enough....even MP era DT. I've listened to a few select DT songs that I LOVE, but I used to just spin a DT album from start to finish and other than ADTOE.....I haven't done that with a DT album in quite some time.
I've already decided that I am not buying any more releases that feature Mike Portnoy or that he is involved with in any way, shape or form until he makes a sincere public apology to Dream Theater and especially to John Petrucci for accusing them/him of plagiarism.
I will, however, continue to buy any and all releases and side projects put out by Dream Theater and its members.
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i think i m gonna switch to listening to Metallica Back again . as DT was really something special . now it is not anymore
what Metallica did on their 30th anniversary is Pure Class Act (the True Class act IMO) Maybe DT and MP should take example.
Have fun with Lulu, really something "special".
at least they don't copy
Sorry, but this is where you, Thiago, and all the other posters desperate to accuse DT of plagiarizing themselves or others on this new album fail. This juxtaposition of Metallica as being "different" from DT really shines the high-beams over the weaknesses of your arguments.
Let's talk about Metallica. Their first 3 or 4 albums have songs which are nearly identical and overall structures which are painstakingly similar in more than one way. They are the epitome of a band which has copied itself over and over again; and yet the era when they did that is considered to be their Golden Age by pretty much every Metallica fan. Meanwhile, Dream Theater have one album which you can listen to it and think, "hey, that's kinda similar to Images and Words", and Mike and his supporters go nuts, not realizing the obvious contradiction.
Likewise, with this Red thing-- why is it a big deal, when Portnoy did the same thing with his influences? For example, when Mike Portnoy wrote lyrics on Train of Thought that were almost identical to Metallica lyrics and had them sung by James in his Hetfield voice over riffs that sounded like they were pulled straight from a thrash-era Metallica song, it was cool. Now Mike's supporters are flipping-out because JP seems to have written a song in the same style as another band he admires. Newflash: this is no different than what Mike has done for years with bands like Muse, Metallica, and Tool. BMUBMD is no more "Red" than Home was "Tool", Never Enough was "Muse", or This Dying Soul was "Metallica". Mike can write it off as inspiration all he wants, but if he or his supporters genuinely believe that then I'd warrant they have some serious problems with their amygladas.
Sorry if that seems tough, but it seems like MP and his supporters will resort to any level of nonsense just to throw another jab DT's way. Really sad. Looks like there are people out there who have no problem putting on the intellectual blinders if it means "The Man" might quote their posts or "like" them on Facebook.
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Yeah that vocal line in This Dying Soul is wayyyyy more similar to Blackened than this Red song to BMUBMD. I mean way closer.
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Sorry if that seems tough, but it seems like MP and his supporters will resort to any level of nonsense just to throw another jab DT's way. Really sad. Looks like there are people out there who have no problem putting on the intellectual blinders if it means "The Man" might quote their posts or "like" them on Facebook.
I have to completely agree with this. Well said.
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Likewise, with this Red thing-- why is it a big deal, when Portnoy did the same thing with his influences? For example, when Mike Portnoy wrote lyrics on Train of Thought that were almost identical to Metallica lyrics and had them sung by James in his Hetfield voice over riffs that sounded like they were pulled straight from a thrash-era Metallica song, it was cool. Now Mike's supporters are flipping-out because JP seems to have written a song in the same style as another band he admires. Newflash: this is no different than what Mike has done for years with bands like Muse, Metallica, and Tool. BMUBMD is no more "Red" than Home was "Tool", Never Enough was "Muse", or This Dying Soul was "Metallica". Mike can write it off as inspiration all he wants, but if he or his supporters genuinely believe that then I'd warrant they have some serious problems with their amygladas.
Why is MP solely to blame for every one of DT's influences while he was in the band? Undeniably he was responsible for some of them, most likely some of the heavier ones you mentioned, but he wasn't a main songwriter, JP was/is. And it's obvious that any influence in this particular case is JP, which supports that it wasn't all MP in he past either.
Don't get me wrong, I am not defending MP one bit here. If anything, I'm just defending DT's recent output. MP is being a hypocrite, and everyone here is right to call him on it. I don't hear that much influence here aside from a slightly similar feel, as I feel was the case with many of DT's past influences that I've had just as little problem with. I don't have a problem with DT drawing inspiration from music they enjoy. JP did nothing wrong here as far as I'm concerned. The only one at fault is MP.
As someone else so cleverly stated, the only difference between it being an influence and plagiarism seems to be whether MP was in the band. :lol
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Likewise, with this Red thing-- why is it a big deal, when Portnoy did the same thing with his influences? For example, when Mike Portnoy wrote lyrics on Train of Thought that were almost identical to Metallica lyrics and had them sung by James in his Hetfield voice over riffs that sounded like they were pulled straight from a thrash-era Metallica song, it was cool. Now Mike's supporters are flipping-out because JP seems to have written a song in the same style as another band he admires. Newflash: this is no different than what Mike has done for years with bands like Muse, Metallica, and Tool. BMUBMD is no more "Red" than Home was "Tool", Never Enough was "Muse", or This Dying Soul was "Metallica". Mike can write it off as inspiration all he wants, but if he or his supporters genuinely believe that then I'd warrant they have some serious problems with their amygladas.
Why is MP solely to blame for every one of DT's influences while he was in the band? Undeniably he was responsible for some of them, most likely some of the heavier ones you mentioned, but he wasn't a main songwriter, JP was/is. And it's obvious that any influence in this particular case is JP, which supports that it wasn't all MP in he past either.
Well, MP wasn't a real songwriter, but I think that he was responsible for a big deal of the direction of the sound and thus the inspiration. Plus he stood behind what JP wrote and where he drew inspiration from. In this plagiarism debate he said that there is a difference between what they (even if mainly JP) did before and what they do now. I get what you're trying to say: Perpetual Change made it sound like MP was the only one who actually drew inspiration from other bands and I agree with you that this is not true; but it doesn't make a huge difference in what Perpetual Change wanted to underline.
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Well, MP wasn't a real songwriter, but I think that he was responsible for a big deal of the direction of the sound and thus the inspiration. Plus he stood behind what JP wrote and where he drew inspiration from. In this plagiarism debate he said that there is a difference between what they (even if mainly JP) did before and what they do now.
As I said, I don't see a difference between what they did with this song, and when he was in the band. His defense of the difference was beyond weak. Neither one is close to plagiarism imo. And as I said, my point wasn't really to defend MP anyway.
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Well, MP wasn't a real songwriter, but I think that he was responsible for a big deal of the direction of the sound and thus the inspiration. Plus he stood behind what JP wrote and where he drew inspiration from. In this plagiarism debate he said that there is a difference between what they (even if mainly JP) did before and what they do now.
As I said, I don't see a difference between what they did with this song, and when he was in the band. His defense of the difference was beyond weak. Neither one is close to plagiarism imo. And as I said, my point wasn't really to defend MP anyway.
Did I make it sound like I thought your point was to defend MP? I read your post, no worries. :D
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I've already decided that I am not buying any more releases that feature Mike Portnoy or that he is involved with in any way, shape or form until he makes a sincere public apology to Dream Theater and especially to John Petrucci for accusing them/him of plagiarism.
I will, however, continue to buy any and all releases and side projects put out by Dream Theater and its members.
My exact reaction when my friend texted me Portnoy had quit Dream Theater was : :yeahright Meh...
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I've already decided that I am not buying any more releases that feature Mike Portnoy or that he is involved with in any way, shape or form until he makes a sincere public apology to Dream Theater and especially to John Petrucci for accusing them/him of plagiarism.
I will, however, continue to buy any and all releases and side projects put out by Dream Theater and its members.
My exact reaction when my friend texted me Portnoy had quit Dream Theater was : :yeahright Meh...
Well, I didn't really care much when he quit Dream Theater. People quit bands all the time. It's the way he's acted SINCE quitting Dream Theater and especially the slanderous accusation of plagiarism that bugs me. As a published musician myself, I would be BEYOND pissed off if I were accused of plagiarizing someone's work. (https://www.kirksnosehair.com/pics/smilies/pissedoff.gif) I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater. The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.
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You know Barry, now that you mention it, there is a part of Vikings that has a definite Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees) vibe to it. I don't want to casually throw the "p" word out there, but I'm just sayin'...
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I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater. The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.
That means 105 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106. :biggrin: :lol
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those numbers are a bit generous Kev. Also go broncos.
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You know Barry, now that you mention it, there is a part of Vikings that has a definite Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees) vibe to it. I don't want to casually throw the "p" word out there, but I'm just sayin'...
Ironically placed in the section where the mother and daughter were trying to hide and "stay alive"......just look at the stars....the stars.....the stars....... ;D
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You know Barry, now that you mention it, there is a part of Vikings that has a definite Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees) vibe to it. I don't want to casually throw the "p" word out there, but I'm just sayin'...
Ironically placed in the section where the mother and daughter were trying to hide and "stay alive"......just look at the stars....the stars.....the stars....... ;D
I KNOW, RIGHT?!
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the people buying AM's cd's are DT/MP fans, Russell Allen SyX fans,and then some godsmack fans they pickup opening for them. he's treating his primary fan group well. oh wait..
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You know Barry, now that you mention it, there is a part of Vikings that has a definite Stayin' Alive (Bee Gees) vibe to it. I don't want to casually throw the "p" word out there, but I'm just sayin'...
Ironically placed in the section where the mother and daughter were trying to hide and "stay alive"......just look at the stars....the stars.....the stars....... ;D
I KNOW, RIGHT?!
:lol
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I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater. The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.
That means 105 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106. :biggrin: :lol
What about Flying colors? I think that the so-called mixture of U2, The Beatles and Yes might really work for a lot of fans. Also, Neal Morse is a part of it. :hefdaddy
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I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater. The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.
That means 105 104 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106 105. :biggrin: :lol
Never intended to buy it anyway. :P
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I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater. The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.
That means 105 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106. :biggrin: :lol
What about Flying colors? I think that the so-called mixture of U2, The Beatles and Yes might really work for a lot of fans. Also, Neal Morse is a part of it. :hefdaddy
That's the only upcoming MP project I'm even slightly interested in.
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I will not support any musician who acts the way Portnoy has acted since quitting Dream Theater. The only thing I can really do to express my outrage is to withhold my financial support, so that's what I'm going to do.
That means 105 people will buy the forthcoming Adrenaline Mob debut studio album instead of 106. :biggrin: :lol
What about Flying colors? I think that the so-called mixture of U2, The Beatles and Yes might really work for a lot of fans. Also, Neal Morse is a part of it. :hefdaddy
That's the only upcoming MP project I'm even slightly interested in.
me too, the small amount of Adrenaline Mob that I could stomach was truly cliche ridden and dreadful.
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What about Flying colors? I think that the so-called mixture of U2, The Beatles and Yes might really work for a lot of fans. Also, Neal Morse is a part of it. :hefdaddy
That's the only upcoming MP project I'm even slightly interested in.
Same here. I am curious to hear it. At the moment...Neal Morse is the only redeeming factor for me with that project, I'd like to continure to support him.
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Adrenaline Mob is pretty bad, but Flying Colors: WANT.
It has nothing to do with Mike Portnoy for me, honestly. I still only care about the music.
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
(https://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/1sm071potstir.gif)
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
(https://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/1sm071potstir.gif)
If that were true, I probably would have baited him. We really don't need that crap again. Jackie just got back to posting again recently.
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
(https://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/1sm071potstir.gif)
If that were true, I probably would have baited him. We really don't need that crap again. Jackie just got back to posting again recently.
I was actually agreeing with YOU. Sorry if you thought otherwise.
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
(https://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/1sm071potstir.gif)
If that were true, I probably would have baited him. We really don't need that crap again. Jackie just got back to posting again recently.
I was actually agreeing with YOU. Sorry if you thought otherwise.
Ah, I see. :blush
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JP's #1 album of the year? Red's.
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JP's #1 album of the year? Red's.
Thanks, Emmy, for the information.
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JP's #1 album of the year? Red's.
Does that mean you hate A Dramatic Turn of Events? :omg:
Oh wait, we already knew that.
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No, silly. This means that I got a RoadRunner's email that somehow wasn't on the Spam folder, opened it, clicked on the link that they suggested, laughed at JR's top ten, was pleasantly surprised with JM's #1 choice, then read JP's list, got a boner when I read that Adele was on that list, #1 spot seemed an enlightening moment to me because I remembered this whole Feed The Machine vs. DT - BMU, BMD, then proceeded to post it on DTF. To my dismay this was common knowledge by the time I clicked on "post."
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...
emin pls go
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When in doubt, always assume DTF already knows. :lol
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JP's #1 album of the year? Red's.
Anyone who rates Steel Panther is ok with me. Can't wait to see JP jooin Satchel on stage for a shredfest. And just wait for the cock-rock lyrics on DTXII...
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...
emin pls go
(https://i39.tinypic.com/29os4mw.gif)
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...
emin pls go
(https://i39.tinypic.com/29os4mw.gif)
(https://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_logjb5qZcZ1qjj1zvo1_400.gif)
Point, where for art thou?
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
Are you saying this never happened or that you don't consider that it did of any consequence?
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It's a subject that was debated endlessly already. I'm sure the thread is still around if you search for it.
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
Are you saying this never happened or that you don't consider that it did of any consequence?
*What are* these lyrical lifts?
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
Are you saying this never happened or that you don't consider that it did of any consequence?
*What are* these lyrical lifts?
Regarding ITPOE: It is based on a (Korean, I think?) Manga called The Priest, which is pretty common knowledge. He used some direct wording from some passages and paraphrased the story in others. This is fairly common knowledge.
Regarding Six Degrees: It was alleged (and when I say "alleged," I'm not implying that this is false; only that I have never seen it, so I cannot confirm or deny whether it was true) that, similarly, JP incorporated some passages from some medical or psychological case book(s) into the lyrics of SDOIT.
The long and short of it is, a few people were bent out of shape over it, a few people defended the band, and the majority responded along the lines of, "Okay, that's fine, but I really don't care."
That's the short version, and I'm happy to have been able to clarify, but it is also off topic, so please, keep the thread focused. Thanks.
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We really have nothing better to do. My response proves it.
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Finally listened to the track. While I see some structural similarities, I think if JP hadn't listed it as his favorite record, it wouldn't be an issue to be mentioned. It's not nearly as close as Stockholm Syndrome/Never Enough or Panic Attack/Glorious or The Great Debate/Home/46 & 2.
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Finally listened to the track. While I see some structural similarities, I think if JP hadn't listed it as his favorite record, it wouldn't be an issue to be mentioned. It's not nearly as close as Stockholm Syndrome/Never Enough or Panic Attack/Glorious or The Great Debate/Home/46 & 2.
Agreed!
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reneranucci, stop re-posting the same thing over and over. You have already received a warning for ignoring my prior general warning in the thread to keep this on topic. Search and find the appropriate thread to post it in, or if there isn't one, you may start one.
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If it was a blatant rip off, I doubt JP would want to voice any personal connection to himself and Red's album, therefore he would have been smarter than to list it as his #1 in 2011. JP is a smart guy, he wouldn't make that mistake.
It's not a ripoff. MP is just jealous that they're doing perfectly fine (better, in fact) without him, and that he wasn't a part of that kick ass record, which is why he can't help but bash it every chance he gets to make him feel better about the fact that he wasn't a part of it.. If he'd just shut up for a change, I might actually feel bad for him, but he just keeps running his damn mouth. I used to look up to him. This is so disappointing.
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If it was a blatant rip off, I doubt JP would want to voice any personal connection to himself and Red's album, therefore he would have been smarter than to list it as his #1 in 2011. JP is a smart guy, he wouldn't make that mistake.
It's not a ripoff. MP is just jealous that they're doing perfectly fine (better, in fact) without him, and that he wasn't a part of that kick ass record, which is why he can't help but bash it every chance he gets to make him feel better about the fact that he wasn't a part of it.. If he'd just shut up for a change, I might actually feel bad for him, but he just keeps running his damn mouth. I used to look up to him. This is so disappointing.
I think you just plagierized my response from earlier :biggrin:
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Just listened to both songs back - to - back.
The intro has a similar vibe and that's it as far as I can tell....
:facepalm: LOLNOY
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Just listened to the song... it's pretty good. Thanks for introducing me to it, guys!
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
Are you saying this never happened or that you don't consider that it did of any consequence?
*What are* these lyrical lifts?
Regarding ITPOE: It is based on a (Korean, I think?) Manga called The Priest, which is pretty common knowledge. He used some direct wording from some passages and paraphrased the story in others. This is fairly common knowledge.
Regarding Six Degrees: It was alleged (and when I say "alleged," I'm not implying that this is false; only that I have never seen it, so I cannot confirm or deny whether it was true) that, similarly, JP incorporated some passages from some medical or psychological case book(s) into the lyrics of SDOIT.
The long and short of it is, a few people were bent out of shape over it, a few people defended the band, and the majority responded along the lines of, "Okay, that's fine, but I really don't care."
That's the short version, and I'm happy to have been able to clarify, but it is also off topic, so please, keep the thread focused. Thanks.
RE SDOIT: I saw a post someone made that was supposedly a scan of the medical journal in question. If the source was legitimate, there were several lines that were lifted directly from the manual. As to the validity of the source of the photo/scan....I have no idea, and I take nothing I see on the internet for "fact"...so take it for what it's worth. I saw the document that caused to controversy....but it wasn't notarized. :-\
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I'm more distrurbed about the lyrical lifts from Six Degrees and Systematic Chaos.
Musical similarities happen all of the time but to take someone's (exact) words without acknowledging them seems at least dubious to me.
We don't need this crap again.
Are you saying this never happened or that you don't consider that it did of any consequence?
*What are* these lyrical lifts?
Regarding ITPOE: It is based on a (Korean, I think?) Manga called The Priest, which is pretty common knowledge. He used some direct wording from some passages and paraphrased the story in others. This is fairly common knowledge.
Regarding Six Degrees: It was alleged (and when I say "alleged," I'm not implying that this is false; only that I have never seen it, so I cannot confirm or deny whether it was true) that, similarly, JP incorporated some passages from some medical or psychological case book(s) into the lyrics of SDOIT.
The long and short of it is, a few people were bent out of shape over it, a few people defended the band, and the majority responded along the lines of, "Okay, that's fine, but I really don't care."
That's the short version, and I'm happy to have been able to clarify, but it is also off topic, so please, keep the thread focused. Thanks.
RE SDOIT: I saw a post someone made that was supposedly a scan of the medical journal in question. If the source was legitimate, there were several lines that were lifted directly from the manual. As to the validity of the source of the photo/scan....I have no idea, and I take nothing I see on the internet for "fact"...so take it for what it's worth. I saw the document that caused to controversy....but it wasn't notarized. :-\
Continued discussion of this should be done here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=30292.new#new
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Not to worried about it as for me BMUBMD is the worst song on the album, but I like the Red version better.
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Not to worried about it as for me BMUBMD is the worst song on the album, but I like the Red version better.
Sorry I just don't see either song as a "version" of the other.
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Not to worried about it as for me BMUBMD is the worst song on the album, but I like the Red version better.
Sorry I just don't see either song as a "version" of the other.
Your view is correct.
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I wouldn't call BMUBMD as the worst song on the album as that implies the album is fall of bad songs, of which that is the worst.
Least favourite sounds better.
Not for me anyway, I like every song on the CD.
If I had to put them in order of preference, OTBOA would be at the bottom simply as i've heard it so often.
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Nope. Still not a big enough similarity. Just a standard sort of structure in modern metal nowadays.
And if MP wants to start accusing them of plagiarism now, I'm sure we can chuck the "Father to Son," "Give In to Me," "Blackened," and "Take a Bow" cases at him to get him to shut up. ;D
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oh come on... 70% of modern rock sounds similar to this. it's just... meh - no uniqueness, no soul, just meh-rock.
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I don't see the resemblance beyond the fact they are both metal songs with a classic structure and riffs. :hat
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Since this thread is still going I'd like to revoice my opinion that I enjoy BMUBMD but it's my least favorite song on ADToE. It's much better than the song everybody is claiming it sounds like and they both sound like every other song in the modern rock/nu metal genre since the early 00's.
No one is to blame here except the youtube fucker who pointed it out and JP for thinking people are decent putting his influence on his top whatever list and MP for being a word Katt Williams uses often.
Also a shout out for people who have some kind of kick in finding this sort of things. Do you feel the bitch inside? does it feed separately or just when you eat? just curious.
Wait I'll try it myself to see! Chorus Feed the Machine https://youtu.be/D4y3xPe6iVU @ 1:04 has a similar vocal melody for a second to this thing's vocal melody https://youtu.be/Gt3yBQf7LqM @ 0:51. I feel it now, the bitch needs to be fed separately.
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Since this thread is still going I'd like to revoice my opinion that I enjoy BMUBMD but it's my least favorite song on ADToE. It's much better than the song everybody is claiming it sounds like and they both sound like every other song in the modern rock/nu metal genre since the early 00's.
No one is to blame here except the youtube fucker who pointed it out and JP for thinking people are decent putting his influence on his top whatever list and MP for being a word Katt Williams uses often.
Also a shout out for people who have some kind of kick in finding this sort of things. Do you feel the bitch inside? does it feed separately or just when you eat? just curious.
Wait I'll try it myself to see! Chorus Feed the Machine https://youtu.be/D4y3xPe6iVU @ 1:04 has a similar vocal melody for a second to this thing's vocal melody https://youtu.be/Gt3yBQf7LqM @ 0:51. I feel it now, the bitch needs to be fed separately.
Funny, but pretty accurate. Thanks for saying that. Saves me from the bitching I hear when I say these kind of things ;D
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Can someone please remind me of the "Blackened" section ? I forgot in which song it occurs :)
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Can someone please remind me of the "Blackened" section ? I forgot in which song it occurs :)
This Dying Soul @ 7:15
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Can someone please remind me of the "Blackened" section ? I forgot in which song it occurs :)
This Dying Soul @ 7:15
:tup :heart
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What about the Meshuggah riff? What song is that from again?
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What about the Meshuggah riff? What song is that from again?
The Dance of Eternity.
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Raw Dog has a fairly "Djent"- y opening.
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Can someone please remind me of the "Blackened" section ? I forgot in which song it occurs :)
This Dying Soul @ 7:15
I never heard this. I went back and listened. They're both aggressive and "come to me my friend" and "blackened in the end" rhyme and have the same number of syllables. There are no call back vocals in Blackened and the feel is totally different because of it. Maybe that's why I never noticed it. It still isn't an "oh ya!" moment for me and the two songs are two of my favorite metal songs. This is the least noticeable of the alleged music borrowings of DT. I'm fine with all of it for the record.
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I immediately recognized the similarity the first time I heard the song, but I couldn't help but love the section nonetheless. :metal