Lyrical Quality

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Lyrics to me break down into three categories:

1) So good you actually listen to the song, in part, for them.

2) Just words to sing.

3) That sounds stupid.

Dream Theater have always had lyrics in the 1 or 2, except for a few select songs after Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Their lyrics are actually very respectable, especially in comparison to most prog metal lyrics.

[wolven74]

I can't really say when I think the lyrics went a bit south for me. I think it has to do with the energy the band has. Each period in the bands history has had songwriting that has been great and not-so-great. If you look at FFI, there are songs that are great lyrically, and there are songs that are fairly shallow lyrically. I would attribute that to the label's pressure to make the band more radio friendly. Also there was a new keyboard player, so the music was influenced by someone new, which may or may not have influenced which lyrics fit the songs. Then JR joined the band, and that's when I think MP started to exert a lot of influence on where the music was going. I don't blame MP for the lyrical content of the songs, but he wanted to take the band in a heavier direction, so that could have influenced what lyrics would fit. When MP was feeling...disgruntled?...I'm sure his energy was down and the rest of the band felt it, so the lyrics suffered. Now, with the new album everyone is energized and excited about the music again, and ADTOE has some of the best lyrics since I&W.

Then again, I could just say that the lyrics suffered the most when JMX stopped writing lyrics.

[Tumdace]

Im not a huge lyrics guy myself either, I much prefer the music.

That being said, I think the lyrics of I&W/Awake really helped add something special to those albums, and thats what has sort of been lacking as of late (but has gotten alot better with ADToE).

[Phantasmatron]

The absence of Moore's and Myung's lyrics meant DT's lyrics as a whole took a couple pretty big hits way back when.  But I continued to like their lyrics, and I didn't have much of a problem with any of them until Octavarium.  TALW and IWBY were cliche-fests.  But then came Systematic Chaos, which included the ridiculous fantasy-themed lyrics, which don't really work for me.  And that was even worse.  It seems to be getting better again since then, however.

[lumpy33]

TRAIN OF THOUGHT

No imagination, no thought, too literal, boring, plain.  It's like they didn't feel like writing lyrics and wanted to shred guitar and keyboard solos instead. 

fine by me.  that album rocks!  they could've been singing about strawberry shortcake for all i care - TOT is badass.

[Ħ]

Lyrics were strong until BCASL, in my opinion.

"Ever deadly suicide",
"The ultimate God of a rotten creation."

and more oppose your statement.

"Evidently suicide" --> important plot element, nothing wrong here.  Actually, the phrasing is really creative.
"The ultimate god of erotic creation" --> TDEN's lyrics aren't great, but they're supposed to be br00tal.

[Ħ]

But, honestly, WDADU, Images, and Awake all had their share of lyrical stinkers too.

Definitely.  People forget.

[Loser1]

Ugh... All this focus on lyrics. I suspect there aren't many Frank Zappa fans here, which I find strange considering the influence he's had on DT. Zappa had incredible music put to a lot of ridiculous lyrics. The focus being on musicianship, writing, melody, etc etc...

I have the same view of DT. They can sing about monsters, car crashes, or more "Serious" topics such as death, mental disorders, stem cell research. It makes no difference to me. They aren't about lyrics to me. Read a book of poetry of you are that serious about meaningful lyrics. Leave the music to musicians.

[SystematicThought]

I think the decline began after Octavarium. I love some of the lyrics on 8V, particularly These Walls, The Answer Lies Within (especially) and Medicate and Razor's Edge

[Madman Shepherd]

DT fans are the most finicky of any band I listen to.  I'd say it is a pretty common opinion some of the stuff on BC&SL was...not their best.  TCOT was about the worst they have ever done in my opinion.  Yet, I never felt there was a significant lag in the quality on any of the other albums. 

Never was too much a fan of MP's lyrics but I also didn't think they were horrible.  JP's fantasy based lyrics on Systematic Chaos might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but it's not like he was just coming up with a stream of nonsensical rhymes. 

So off and on they had some bad ones that some people liked and others didn't, but it wasn't until BC&SL that the fans overwhelming thought the actual quality was pretty bad.

[jcmistat]

Lyrics to me break down into three categories:

1) So good you actually listen to the song, in part, for them.

2) Just words to sing.

3) That sounds stupid.

Dream Theater have always had lyrics in the 1 or 2, except for a few select songs after Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Their lyrics are actually very respectable, especially in comparison to most prog metal lyrics.

You hit right on the spot! There's a lot a variety, cryptic lyrics early on and some later and then the more obvious ones. I do have to agree I'm not keen on fantasy based lyrics basically power metal ever since discovering and becoming a pledged DT fan. I want to be able to connect emotionally especially the lyrics. Even the songs that some would say have lesser lyrical content are great. Maybe I just love JLB's voice that much and how he delivers the words.

[theseoafs]

"The ultimate god of erotic creation"

Please tell me you know those aren't the words.

[Ħ]

I totally thought they were.

[BlobVanDam]

It's kind of disheartening to see a couple of people criticizing lyrics when they don't even know what the lyrics are.

I don't have a problem with the majority of DT lyrics. There are a few songs with lyrics I don't like mostly because of subject matter (TGD, PoW), and some bits on BCASL where the vocal delivery doesn't fit the lyrics (TSF, ANTR), but aside from that, I'll happily crank any of them full volume.
SC and BCASL both went for a different approach to lyrics, and it's style of lyric that some people don't seem to like, as a lot of them are more direct, and fictional. But I like hearing DT branch out and try something new, and I enjoy the more "fun" lyrics like TCOT and TDEN.

[Chrissalix]

Melodies > Lyrics in terms of importance, but good lyrics can make a song and both are very intertwined. Look at Beneath The Surface. The melodies on their own aren't DT's best but in tandem with those lyrics, it just makes you think. You can't really call it poetry but that first line "Is there ever really a right time?" just makes you think about your life. That's a good lyric right there. It ain't complex, but it's great.

I have no problem with DT's lyrics on the whole until SC which was terrible as the lyrics stopped being relevant to me. They were based on fantasy or personal experiences which were told like stories. If I want stories like that, I will read a book or a comic. They were superficial. My problem with the lyrical content on BCSL was that that marriage between melodies and lyrical content just wasn't there. The growls of MY BRUTHA and "BY TEH GRACE OF GOD ABOVE, EVERYONE SURVIVED" just sounded stupid and ill fitting. I don't even mind Never Enough that much (Portnoy is easily my least favourite DT lyricist, his material (except ACOS and New Millenium was too passive aggressive and cringe) because the theme and the delivery sort of work together.

Images and Words had the best lyrics. Take the Time's are my favourite. DT still haven't replaced Kevin Moore as a lyricist. He was great. But a lot of the reasons I like the lyrics on that album are linked to tha fact that I&W has DT's best vocal lines, no contest.

[hefdaddy42]

Ugh... All this focus on lyrics. I suspect there aren't many Frank Zappa fans here, which I find strange considering the influence he's had on DT.

He didn't really have any influence on DT that I've ever heard.  MP loved Zappa, but MP loved lots of music that the other guys didn't.

I've never once seen Zappa's music cited by any of the band members as an influence.

[Podaar]

Ugh... All this focus on lyrics. I suspect there aren't many Frank Zappa fans here, which I find strange considering the influence he's had on DT.

He didn't really have any influence on DT that I've ever heard.  MP loved Zappa, but MP loved lots of music that the other guys didn't.

I've never once seen Zappa's music cited by any of the band members as an influence.

You may wish to listen to 6:35 through around 7:10 of Outcry. Also, in the Roadrunner Records feature where James and John are interviewed about the new album, John specifically describes a part of Outcry as having a Zappa moment. I'd post a link, but RR website doesn't seem to be working for me today.

[Orion1967]

The lyrics never went downhill, they just changed. The idea of "the best lyrics are the ones where you have no idea what they're about, storytelling is evil" pisses me off.

This ^

[Liberation]

The lyrics never went downhill, they just changed. The idea of "the best lyrics are the ones where you have no idea what they're about, storytelling is evil" pisses me off.

I don't disagree with this, but I also don't think it's fair to summarize the criticism of recent DT lyrics as 'storytelling is evil.'  From what I've seen, most of the criticism is of the quality of those stories or the way those stories are told, not just the fact that they tell stories.  Most obvious example is TCOT.  I haven't heard anyone say that they hate TCOT because 'its lyrics tell a story.'  I've heard lots of people say they hate TCOT because it uses awkward phrases to tell that story, and because they think the story itself is a bit silly.  But "I don't like the way this story is told" and "I don't like the content of this story" are not at all the same as "I don't like that it's trying to tell a story."

Well, you know, for me the thing that already speaks for itself very much in this thread that the only example given 95% of the time is The Count of Tuscany. So the lyrical quality has gone downwards after FII, but the only bad lyrics you can find is one song which is commonly known to have some funny moments? Right.

And this is not the first time when I see this topic brought up without any reasonable arguments backing it. If people can't be bothered why supposedly their lyrics have gone to hell post-FII, apparently having six albums of examples, why should I bother trying to dig deeper into their opinion? This thread is the same case again, a few very decent posts, but overall again general statements and the old "early DT is superior because... because... it is!".

I understand not everyone has to love the whole discography equally like me, but when you claim the band has supposedly gone downhill in an aspect or all of them, I think at least some explanation is needed (this is a forum, if everyone just said "this is great and this sucks", what's the point of having a forum anyway? You can just have a set of polls instead).

The lyrics never went downhill, they just changed. The idea of "the best lyrics are the ones where you have no idea what they're about, storytelling is evil" pisses me off.

I guess it's a good thing that no one says that then.

DT's strengths have never, by and large, been their lyrics.  But they used to be pretty good, even reaching great with Awake, but I agree that the downward spiral started after 6DIOT, and hit bottom with BC&SL.  But the lyrics on ADTOE are a much better effort in my opinion.  And oh look, many of them involve storytelling, and almost none of them involve lyrics where you have no idea what they're about.

So explain what exactly is that "downward spiral" and how does it show in their lyrics. Because all I see is The Count of Tuscany which is a bit sloppy in some moments and Systematic Chaos which I guess was even expected by the band to be controversial. And e.g. Disappear, Vacant or In The Name of God are lyrical masterpieces. Even such a simple song as A Rite of Passage has great and very interesting lyrics imo.

[Zukuduku]

I've never once seen Zappa's music cited by any of the band members as an influence.

Actually the band calls a unison in BTL "Zappa unison". You can hear it being discussed in the commentary track of M2000.

[bosk1]

At what point was it, in your opinion, that DT's lyrics started to slip?

Never.

[Dream Team]

After A Change of Seasons, things started to go downhill.  Since then, every DT album has had a handle of songs with good lyrics, a handful of songs with terrible lyrics, and a handful of songs which are just average lyrically.

But, honestly, WDADU, Images, and Awake all had their share of lyrical stinkers too.

I need to know which songs you're referring to. Outside of "Lie", I can't come up with one.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I'd love to hear what songs on I&W and Awake are lyrical stinkers.  Lie's lyrics are not great, but they are generally good. 

[BlobVanDam]

Lie's lyrics are pretty terrible, but I can't think of anything else on IaW/Awake with bad lyrics. However, I'd also say the same for many of the recent albums that people are faulting too.

[Liberation]

I also find it... interesting that if the lyrics are rebellious they're automatically bad.

[KevShmev]

Lie's lyrics are pretty terrible,

How so?  There is some very clever wordplay, and overall they paint quite a picture.  Not one of the DT's best lyrical efforts, but still good overall, and better than a great majority of DT songs post-FII.

[BlobVanDam]

Lie's lyrics are pretty terrible,

How so?  There is some very clever wordplay, and overall they paint quite a picture.  Not one of the DT's best lyrical efforts, but still good overall, and better than a great majority of DT songs post-FII.

Um, no they're not. They're an awkward fit for a heavy song. First of all, the shorter rhymes within each line throughout most of the song give it a weird rap sort of feel and it comes off as awkward and very forced.
And then of course there's this whole section-

Mother Mary quite contrary
Kiss the boys and make them wary
Things are getting just a little bit scary
It's a wonder I can still breathe

That is bad. That's like "finest wines" bad.

[SnakeEyes]

Look, nothing is as bad as vampire love and dark masters.  NOTHING. 

[Liberation]

Vampire love and dark masters done badly are horrible indeed.

However, we're talking about Forsaken and In The Presence of Enemies.

[hefdaddy42]

Vampire love and dark masters done badly are horrible indeed.

However, we're talking about Forsaken and In The Presence of Enemies.

Yes, we certainly are.

[Liberation]

So, please show me these themes actually realised badly so I can have a contrast.

[SnakeEyes]

Vampire love and dark masters done badly are horrible indeed.

I think vampire love and dark masters done at all is horrible. 

However, we're talking about Forsaken and In The Presence of Enemies.

Which are horrible.  (lyrically)

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah, I'd love to hear what songs on I&W and Awake are lyrical stinkers.  Lie's lyrics are not great, but they are generally good.

I disagree. Lie's lyrics are terrible, and honestly how bad they are is the first thing I noticed about the song. The Mirror sports some pretty bad lyrics as well. Thankfully, the rest of Awake is pretty good.

As far as Images goes? I like most of them, but Pull Me Under is cheesy metal at it's finest. Other than that, I love it.

And you didn't ask, Kev, but someone else brought up which lyrics I thought were lackluster WDADU? C'mon. If you can't figure out which lyrics are questionable on that record, then there's no point even talking about it because we're not gonna agree on anything 

The point I was making, though, rather than bashing the albums I love, is that while there's a couple bad lyrics on the early albums, an overall decline in quality began with FII (NOT Scenes or SDOIT, as some people were saying).

[Perpetual Change]

I don't get what's so bad about Forsaken, either. I mean, yeah, it's about vampires. But, if you're willing to accept that, it seems to be that the song does a pretty good job given the subject material.

[Jarzombek]

i listen to d.t. for the music, so i've never cared about the lyrics.

Me too.