Lyrical Quality

[iamtheeviltwin]

At what point was it, in your opinion, that DT's lyrics started to slip?

Never.

My thoughts exactly. 

I'm truly amazed at the number of fans who don't dig the fantasy-styled lyrics.  They have been a mainstay of prog and metal from almost the beginning.  Songs like Forsaken, AROP, and LNF (even The Killing Hand) have some great story-telling moments and follow a tradition I love with songs like To Tame a Land or Battle of Evermore.

Although DT's best lyrics (imo) have always been their emotional ballads Waiting for Sleep, The Silent Man, Anna Lee, Misunderstood, Wither, Beneath the Surface, etc.  Those lyrics have always stood head and shoulders above the rest of their work.

[BlackInk]

I never got the hate for the ItPoE lyrics, I have always seen them as very metaphorical so I actually find the 'dark master' stuff pretty good actually.

[iamtheeviltwin]

Um, no they're not. They're an awkward fit for a heavy song. First of all, the shorter rhymes within each line throughout most of the song give it a weird rap sort of feel and it comes off as awkward and very forced.
And then of course there's this whole section-

Mother Mary quite contrary
Kiss the boys and make them wary
Things are getting just a little bit scary
It's a wonder I can still breathe

That is bad. That's like "finest wines" bad.

That rhyme is one of my favorite parts of the song....I always thought the style and delivery of Lie was great and playful in many ways.

[Chrissalix]

Um, no they're not. They're an awkward fit for a heavy song. First of all, the shorter rhymes within each line throughout most of the song give it a weird rap sort of feel and it comes off as awkward and very forced.
And then of course there's this whole section-

Mother Mary quite contrary
Kiss the boys and make them wary
Things are getting just a little bit scary
It's a wonder I can still breathe

That is bad. That's like "finest wines" bad.

That rhyme is one of my favorite parts of the song....I always thought the style and delivery of Lie was great and playful in many ways.

KevMo had pretty much given up by then. 6:00 had good lyrics but they're nothing on anything he did before.

I can't stress importantly enough the importance of what's being said (lyrics) with how it's being said. When you read the lyrics to TCOT or ANTR they don't seem all that bad on their own. It's the mismatch of delivery of "MY BRUTHA, DAY AFTUH DAY etc" that makes people cry out "OMG TCOT's LYRICZ ARE TEH CRAP LOLZ". They're better than 100% of the inane pop out there. True story. It's just lyrics like on BC&SL didn't fit with the sound of that album. That's why they're considered bad. It has not so much to do with the words themselves.

I don't like the lyrics on SC. They're just not to my taste. Songs with a strong anchor in personal reality resonate more with me. Fantasy lyrics do nothing for me. Everything up to 8vm was ok. I don't get why everyone loves Trial of Tears' lyrics. JM has his lyrical moments but ToT isn't his zenith.

[Ħ]

I think Lie's lyrics are really creative, especially because of the rapid rhyming style (ex. you sin, you win). 

Caught in a Web has awkward lyrics (if you can even make them out), Afterlife's are cheesy, and Under a Glass Moon's are un-understandable.

[KevShmev]

Lie's lyrics are pretty terrible,

How so?  There is some very clever wordplay, and overall they paint quite a picture.  Not one of the DT's best lyrical efforts, but still good overall, and better than a great majority of DT songs post-FII.

Um, no they're not. They're an awkward fit for a heavy song. First of all, the shorter rhymes within each line throughout most of the song give it a weird rap sort of feel and it comes off as awkward and very forced.
And then of course there's this whole section-

Mother Mary quite contrary
Kiss the boys and make them wary
Things are getting just a little bit scary
It's a wonder I can still breathe

That is bad. That's like "finest wines" bad.

Well, if you don't like them, that is simply your opinion, which you are entitled to, but given how much the mods get on some for posting criticisms about the band without any explanation, you originally saying that the lyrics were terrible without explaining came off as awfully empty and inflammatory.  Just saying.

Yeah, I'd love to hear what songs on I&W and Awake are lyrical stinkers.  Lie's lyrics are not great, but they are generally good.

I disagree. Lie's lyrics are terrible, and honestly how bad they are is the first thing I noticed about the song. 

*shrugs*

To each his own. 

[BlobVanDam]

Well, if you don't like them, that is simply your opinion, which you are entitled to, but given how much the mods get on some for posting criticisms about the band without any explanation, you originally saying that the lyrics were terrible without explaining came off as awfully empty and inflammatory.  Just saying.

Ah, yeah. I didn't mean it to be. It was in context as part of the discussion, so I wasn't thinking of how it looked on its own, and my main point was about the rest of the songs having good lyrics, rather than that one that I felt didn't.
Maybe you should get on SnakeEye's case too for his empty inflammatory points.

[ishak540m]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  In my opinion, the problem with TCOT's lyrics isn't that they aren't serious, it's that the music IS serious, so the tone of the lyrics doesn't match the tone of the music.

I disagree that the music is serious.  I think it only gets serious towards the end at the acoustic/spoken word part.  The rest is more mystical/metal oriented to me.  It doesn't have to be ragtime, tickle section, etc to not be serious.

[Liberation]

Vampire love and dark masters done badly are horrible indeed.

I think vampire love and dark masters done at all is horrible. 

However, we're talking about Forsaken and In The Presence of Enemies.

Which are horrible.  (lyrically)

They took two themes COMPLETELY out of their usual "comfort zone", and managed to make them actually sound Dream Theater. They'd shown many times they can write great lyrics on deep subjects, and this time they wrote great (or at least good) lyrics on seemingly very simple and weird subjects, and made them sound not out of place at all.

If this isn't impressive, then I don't know what is; and if this is not progressive, then I don't know what is either.

[Loser1]

Ugh... All this focus on lyrics. I suspect there aren't many Frank Zappa fans here, which I find strange considering the influence he's had on DT.

He didn't really have any influence on DT that I've ever heard.  MP loved Zappa, but MP loved lots of music that the other guys didn't.

I've never once seen Zappa's music cited by any of the band members as an influence.

No offense meant to you, but... that is perhaps the most absurd statement I've heard. But I digress...

If you listen to a variety of DT you can pick out Zappa-ism's here and there. Some of them are blatantly obvious. Listen to Scenes from a Memory, that perhaps has the most obvious examples. Then there is an Zukuduku pointed out. I've heard on numerous occasions Rudess, Portnoy and Petrucci give homage to Zappa. It was these Zappaism's on Scenes that got me into DT in the first place way back when.

[Millais]

they were never bad, just I suppose, for me personally, quite average. Particular highlights have been Six Degrees & ADTOE & Scenes From A Memory which incidentally are my favourite 3 DT albums 

[toro]

Vampire love and dark masters done badly are horrible indeed.

I think vampire love and dark masters done at all is horrible. 

However, we're talking about Forsaken and In The Presence of Enemies.

Which are horrible.  (lyrically)

They took two themes COMPLETELY out of their usual "comfort zone", and managed to make them actually sound Dream Theater. They'd shown many times they can write great lyrics on deep subjects, and this time they wrote great (or at least good) lyrics on seemingly very simple and weird subjects, and made them sound not out of place at all.

If this isn't impressive, then I don't know what is; and if this is not progressive, then I don't know what is either.

Lifting lyrics from a horrible manga and making them extremely cheesy =/= progressive.

[Liberation]

Vampire love and dark masters done badly are horrible indeed.

I think vampire love and dark masters done at all is horrible. 

However, we're talking about Forsaken and In The Presence of Enemies.

Which are horrible.  (lyrically)

They took two themes COMPLETELY out of their usual "comfort zone", and managed to make them actually sound Dream Theater. They'd shown many times they can write great lyrics on deep subjects, and this time they wrote great (or at least good) lyrics on seemingly very simple and weird subjects, and made them sound not out of place at all.

If this isn't impressive, then I don't know what is; and if this is not progressive, then I don't know what is either.

Lifting lyrics from a horrible manga and making them extremely cheesy =/= progressive.

You're basically proving my point from my first post. Thank you.

[toro]

Nice delusion bro.
It's not because it's a story, it's because the story it's bad AND the lyrics are bad.

[hefdaddy42]

Ugh... All this focus on lyrics. I suspect there aren't many Frank Zappa fans here, which I find strange considering the influence he's had on DT.

He didn't really have any influence on DT that I've ever heard.  MP loved Zappa, but MP loved lots of music that the other guys didn't.

I've never once seen Zappa's music cited by any of the band members as an influence.

No offense meant to you, but... that is perhaps the most absurd statement I've heard. But I digress...

If you listen to a variety of DT you can pick out Zappa-ism's here and there. Some of them are blatantly obvious. Listen to Scenes from a Memory, that perhaps has the most obvious examples. Then there is an Zukuduku pointed out. I've heard on numerous occasions Rudess, Portnoy and Petrucci give homage to Zappa. It was these Zappaism's on Scenes that got me into DT in the first place way back when.

I didn't say that there are no moments in their music that don't sound like Zappa.  I said (or meant to say) that Zappa is not one of the main influences on the band as a whole.

They have been interviewed many times about their influences, and they are always bands like Yes, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Pink Floyd, Genesis, etc.  I've seen interviews with MP where he cites Zappa as a personal influence for him, but Zappa's style is not an influence on DT's style.  I don't see how anyone can say it is.

But by all means, believe whatever you want.

[ResultsMayVary]

DT's lyrics has always been really good and better than the majority of other bands that I listen to. Yes, there are some songs that are questionable in quality, but that doesn't take away from the whole picture. DT has always had good lyrics and I believe they will continue to until they decide to stop playing music (hopefully 10-20 years down the road or possibly more!).

[Liberation]

Nice delusion bro.
It's not because it's a story, it's because the story it's bad AND the lyrics are bad.

My point was that "it's bad" is the only "argument" that appears 95% of the time.

[Podaar]

Following is a link to a writer's opinion of DT. Be warned, many of you probably won't like it! 

https://orullian.com/testpress/uncategorized/why-you-should-be-listening-to-dream-theater-writers-too/

[edit]

Oh, and on the Zappa thing...folks really need to listen to Outcry from 6:44 tp 7:10. That could be right off of Studio Tan. I'm just sayin'

[hefdaddy42]

Yes, that's one passage from one song.  I'm just sayin'.

[Neuth]

I got into DT when Systematic Chaos came out, and then worked my way backwards (for the most part) with the albums. So for me personally I don't think they ever really slipped in lyrical quality, but like someone else already said they just changed in style here and there, and the ambiguity of lyrics certainly don't make them better. As for story-telling lyrics, that's what got me into DT. The line in Forsaken "I have to know your name, where have I seen your face before" was such a cool line for me, not sure why but it just clicked. Also the lyrics in TMOLS are really beautiful I think. Great story-telling, and it feels so personal. Probably one of my favourite DT lyrics, if not the best.