Lyrical Quality

[fibreoptix]

Hi all,

Since the release of ADTOE, there has been an almost unanimous feeling that the lyrics are a great improvement to some of the most recent offerings. I've also noticed that there's an almost unanimous feeling that DT's lyrics were once great, but at some point started to noticeably slip.

So my questions to the forum are:

At what point was it, in your opinion, that DT's lyrics started to slip? What album do you think featured the last truely great set of lyrics (ADTOE excluded)? What was it about the lyrics that didn't sit right with you when you started to notice the dip in quality?

Note this isn't intended to be a negative thread and I'm hoping that the discussion that arises will inspire both criticism and praise for their body of work. It could be an interesting thread.

(Obligatory apology if this thread already exists in a recent capacity goes here.)

[GuineaPig]

After Falling Into Infinity, things went downhill pretty fast.  Six Degrees was a slight uptick, but since then the lyrical quality has fallen dramatically.

[Jamesman42]

After Falling Into Infinity, things went downhill pretty fast.  Six Degrees was a slight uptick, but since then the lyrical quality has fallen dramatically.

I can somewhat agree with this. TOT has some good lyrics as well, and ADTOE is getting a lot better (though still not IaW/Awake caliber).

[Liberation]

The lyrics never went downhill, they just changed. The idea of "the best lyrics are the ones where you have no idea what they're about, storytelling is evil" pisses me off.

[gentaishinigami]

The lyrics never went downhill, they just changed. The idea of "the best lyrics are the ones where you have no idea what they're about, storytelling is evil" pisses me off.

QFT.  Exacly how I feel about it.  I thought the lyrics were fine in all the albums.  Not every song is meant to be a vague mystery that leaves you scratching your head.  I thought the lyrics to TCoT were hilarious and fun to sing along to personally, but seems everyone else hates it with a burning passion.   Different strokes for different folks /shrug

[lumpy33]

i listen to d.t. for the music, so i've never cared about the lyrics.  melodies, yes.  but what they're saying?  no.  i'm too absorbed in the complexity of the music to base an opinion - favorably or negatively - on the lyrics of their albums.

[Mladen]

I rarely talk about lyrical quality, because I'm not really a lyrics guy. I only know if I like them or no. What's certain is that A Dramatic turn of events has some incredible lyrics that really touched me: This is the life, Beneath the surface, Breaking all illusions, Far from heaven...

Storytelling was interesting, but it didn't necessarily move me. The Ministry of lost souls and In the presence of enemies felt great, The Count of Tuscany on the other hand not as much. If I have to choose, I guess the lyrics that appeal to me the most are the ones that deal with life philosophy, but I also have a soft spot for abstract stuff, like Under a glass moon.

[Jaffa]

The lyrics never went downhill, they just changed. The idea of "the best lyrics are the ones where you have no idea what they're about, storytelling is evil" pisses me off.

I don't disagree with this, but I also don't think it's fair to summarize the criticism of recent DT lyrics as 'storytelling is evil.'  From what I've seen, most of the criticism is of the quality of those stories or the way those stories are told, not just the fact that they tell stories.  Most obvious example is TCOT.  I haven't heard anyone say that they hate TCOT because 'its lyrics tell a story.'  I've heard lots of people say they hate TCOT because it uses awkward phrases to tell that story, and because they think the story itself is a bit silly.  But "I don't like the way this story is told" and "I don't like the content of this story" are not at all the same as "I don't like that it's trying to tell a story."

[Ħ]

Lyrics were strong until BCASL, in my opinion.

[BlackInk]

I thought the lyrics to TCoT were hilarious and fun to sing along to personally

Things like that are fun, but I would personally want those types of hilarious lyrics from maybe The Lonely Island or something like that. From Dream Theater I want some seriousness lyrically.

[gentaishinigami]

I thought the lyrics to TCoT were hilarious and fun to sing along to personally

Things like that are fun, but I would personally want those types of hilarious lyrics from maybe The Lonely Island or something like that. From Dream Theater I want some seriousness lyrically.

But didn't you have like 9 albums prior and several other songs on the 10th album that were pretty much all (except dark eternal night i guess lol) serious?  I'd say they deserved a chance to do something different and fun.    However, yes, I would say BCSL was their weakest lyrical album.  That being said I still enjoyed it a lot, and have no problem with any of JP's lyrics (or anyone elses).

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

The lyrics never went downhill, they just changed. The idea of "the best lyrics are the ones where you have no idea what they're about, storytelling is evil" pisses me off.

Too bad the storytelling wasn't good at all.

[Jaffa]

I thought the lyrics to TCoT were hilarious and fun to sing along to personally

Things like that are fun, but I would personally want those types of hilarious lyrics from maybe The Lonely Island or something like that. From Dream Theater I want some seriousness lyrically.

But didn't you have like 9 albums prior and several other songs on the 10th album that were pretty much all (except dark eternal night i guess lol) serious?  I'd say they deserved a chance to do something different and fun.   

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  In my opinion, the problem with TCOT's lyrics isn't that they aren't serious, it's that the music IS serious, so the tone of the lyrics doesn't match the tone of the music.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

I thought the lyrics to TCoT were hilarious and fun to sing along to personally

Things like that are fun, but I would personally want those types of hilarious lyrics from maybe The Lonely Island or something like that. From Dream Theater I want some seriousness lyrically.

But didn't you have like 9 albums prior and several other songs on the 10th album that were pretty much all (except dark eternal night i guess lol) serious?  I'd say they deserved a chance to do something different and fun.   

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  In my opinion, the problem with TCOT's lyrics isn't that they aren't serious, it's that the music IS serious, so the tone of the lyrics doesn't match the tone of the music.

That's pretty much my thoughts. The music is all tense and awesome but the lyrics are hilarious. It just doesn't feel right.

[gentaishinigami]

I thought the lyrics to TCoT were hilarious and fun to sing along to personally

Things like that are fun, but I would personally want those types of hilarious lyrics from maybe The Lonely Island or something like that. From Dream Theater I want some seriousness lyrically.

But didn't you have like 9 albums prior and several other songs on the 10th album that were pretty much all (except dark eternal night i guess lol) serious?  I'd say they deserved a chance to do something different and fun.   

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  In my opinion, the problem with TCOT's lyrics isn't that they aren't serious, it's that the music IS serious, so the tone of the lyrics doesn't match the tone of the music.

IDK I guess we will have to agree to disagree.    I thought the music perfectly fit each part of the story that it belonged to.  The beginning is very uplifting and happy feeling when he is on the way there and everything is still cool, then when he arrives it starts building tension and gets very aggressive along with the story until the middle break where he thinks hes gonna die and it becomes peaceful, etc.

[tweeg]

I thought the lyrics to TCoT were hilarious and fun to sing along to personally

Things like that are fun, but I would personally want those types of hilarious lyrics from maybe The Lonely Island or something like that. From Dream Theater I want some seriousness lyrically.

But didn't you have like 9 albums prior and several other songs on the 10th album that were pretty much all (except dark eternal night i guess lol) serious?  I'd say they deserved a chance to do something different and fun.   

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  In my opinion, the problem with TCOT's lyrics isn't that they aren't serious, it's that the music IS serious, so the tone of the lyrics doesn't match the tone of the music.

I'll agree with this. To take it one step more general, I find DT's later lyrics, which are very to-the-point and obvious, quite contrasting with their complex, deep music. With I&W and Awake, the lyrics "fit" the style a bit more; you had to think pretty hard about both music and words to understand it. The more straightforward lyrics just stick out like a sore thumb for me, at least in the more dense, complex songs.

[hefdaddy42]

The lyrics never went downhill, they just changed. The idea of "the best lyrics are the ones where you have no idea what they're about, storytelling is evil" pisses me off.

I guess it's a good thing that no one says that then.

DT's strengths have never, by and large, been their lyrics.  But they used to be pretty good, even reaching great with Awake, but I agree that the downward spiral started after 6DIOT, and hit bottom with BC&SL.  But the lyrics on ADTOE are a much better effort in my opinion.  And oh look, many of them involve storytelling, and almost none of them involve lyrics where you have no idea what they're about.

[Elite]

Lyrics were strong until BCASL, in my opinion.

"Ever deadly suicide",
"The ultimate God of a rotten creation."

and more oppose your statement.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

*Evidently suicide

[Jaffa]

I thought the music perfectly fit each part of the story that it belonged to.

I don't disagree.  I'm not saying the story doesn't deserve serious music.  I'm saying the lyrics don't fit with serious music.  I can't think of any possible reason, for instance, why the line 'bearded gentleman historian' could need to be delivered as if it was supposed to be a scary and intense moment.  In fact, I can't think of any possible reason why that line needs to be there at all.  Does it enhance the story?  Does it enhance the music?  I don't think it does. 

It's sorta like my opinion of The Shattered Fortress.  There's nothing wrong with the lyrics, and there's nothing wrong with the music, but I find it hard to take either very seriously when words like 'justice', 'courtesy,' and 'kindness' are delivered the way they are.  The tone of the music and the vocals makes me think of anger, which makes it sound like they're pissed off about justice, courtesy, and kindness.  It just doesn't mesh well to me.  It doesn't make musical sense.

But, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, and if you love the lyrics that's fine with me.    I myself love TCOT.  I'd just love it more if certain things were changed about it. 


On topic, I think their most consistent albums, lyrically, were Awake and Images and Words.  All of their albums have at least one or two songs where I like the lyrics a lot, but other albums also have some I'm not as fond of.  So I guess I'd say for me the lyrical 'decline' began with Falling Into Infinity.

[theseoafs]

*Evidently suicide

*rotting creation

[tweeg]

Lyrics were strong until BCASL, in my opinion.

"Ever deadly suicide",
"The ultimate God of a rotten creation."

and more oppose your statement.

And don't forget "Death is the first dancing turtle." I mean, WTF!

[gentaishinigami]

I thought the music perfectly fit each part of the story that it belonged to.

I don't disagree.  I'm not saying the story doesn't deserve serious music.  I'm saying the lyrics don't fit with serious music.  I can't think of any possible reason, for instance, why the line 'bearded gentleman historian' could need to be delivered as if it was supposed to be a scary and intense moment.  In fact, I can't think of any possible reason why that line needs to be there at all.  Does it enhance the story?  Does it enhance the music?  I don't think it does. 

It's sorta like my opinion of The Shattered Fortress.  There's nothing wrong with the lyrics, and there's nothing wrong with the music, but I find it hard to take either very seriously when words like 'justice', 'courtesy,' and 'kindness' are delivered the way they are.  The tone of the music and the vocals makes me think of anger, which makes it sound like they're pissed off about justice, courtesy, and kindness.  It just doesn't mesh well to me.  It doesn't make musical sense.

But, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, and if you love the lyrics that's fine with me.    I myself love TCOT.  I'd just love it more if certain things were changed about it. 


On topic, I think their most consistent albums, lyrically, were Awake and Images and Words.  All of their albums have at least one or two songs where I like the lyrics a lot, but other albums also have some I'm not as fond of.  So I guess I'd say for me the lyrical 'decline' began with Falling Into Infinity.

No, that is something different than what I'm referring to.  I'm talking about the lyrics from a pure word standpoint being fine with me.  I don't like the MP backing parts to parts such as the one you mentioned either, and for some reason they seem twice as loud lately     I think it could have been done a bit better, but that is different from the actual lyrics, which I think are fine.   It sounds more like you dislike the delivery of said lyrics rather than disliking the lyrics themselves (which I can definitely get on board with at times).

[Jaffa]

It sounds more like you dislike the delivery of said lyrics rather than disliking the lyrics themselves (which I can definitely get on board with at times).

That's all I've been saying at all, haha.  I think that the lyrics don't match with the music.  That includes vocal delivery and surrounding musical parts. 

[gentaishinigami]

It sounds more like you dislike the delivery of said lyrics rather than disliking the lyrics themselves (which I can definitely get on board with at times).

That's all I've been saying at all, haha.  I think that the lyrics don't match with the music.  That includes vocal delivery and surrounding musical parts.

So that means you don't like either the lyrics or their delivery?  I'm confused ._.;

[IronEarthTheater]

Honestly, I've never understood the lyrical argument.  I had no problems with most of the lyrics on the recent albums - I know that they weren't as cryptic as earlier songs, but that didn't bother me.  I didn't have an issue with TCOT, other than it seemed that the narrator was being a bit paranoid.  Sure, some sets of lyrics (like Learning to Live) were considerably better than others, but then that's true of music as well.  Just because I don't like the song Voices as much as Breaking All Illusions (piggybacking off the other thread) doesn't mean that the music isn't good; it's a preference thing.  I do think there are some songs that are lyrically weak for what they are trying to do.  But it's not a style thing for me, but an issue of execution.

[Jaffa]

So that means you don't like either the lyrics or their delivery?  I'm confused ._.;

The delivery would be fine with more serious lyrics.  The lyrics would be fine with a less serious delivery.  Neither element is inherently bad, they just don't blend well together. 

This is going to be my last post here because I feel like I'm derailing too many threads lately, so feel free to PM for further clarification. 

[Elite]

*Evidently suicide

the FUCK. Did I always hear that wrong? 
Also, I never bothered to look it up in the lyrics booklet apparently.
Wow, I feel stupid now.

[SnakeEyes]

TRAIN OF THOUGHT

No imagination, no thought, too literal, boring, plain.  It's like they didn't feel like writing lyrics and wanted to shred guitar and keyboard solos instead. 

[gentaishinigami]

So that means you don't like either the lyrics or their delivery?  I'm confused ._.;

The delivery would be fine with more serious lyrics.  The lyrics would be fine with a less serious delivery.  Neither element is inherently bad, they just don't blend well together. 

Gotcha, that clarifies it nicely lol =) 

[tweeg]

TRAIN OF THOUGHT

No imagination, no thought, too literal, boring, plain.  It's like they didn't feel like writing lyrics and wanted to shred guitar and keyboard solos instead.

I like Vacant and ITNOG. They feel a bit thoughtful.

[Perpetual Change]

After A Change of Seasons, things started to go downhill.  Since then, every DT album has had a handle of songs with good lyrics, a handful of songs with terrible lyrics, and a handful of songs which are just average lyrically.

But, honestly, WDADU, Images, and Awake all had their share of lyrical stinkers too.

[ZBomber]

After A Change of Seasons, things started to go downhill.  Since then, every DT album has had a handle of songs with good lyrics, a handful of songs with terrible lyrics, and a handful of songs which are just average lyrically.

But, honestly, WDADU, Images, and Awake all had their share of lyrical stinkers too.

Agreed.

[Marion Crane]

After Falling Into Infinity, things went downhill pretty fast.  Six Degrees was a slight uptick, but since then the lyrical quality has fallen dramatically.

SFAM is brilliant. For me, I'd say Constant Motion was the first time I was truly upset with the lyrical content

[BlackInk]

I have no real problem with the lyrics for Constant Motion, just that it's barely song, just kinda bursts of words.