Regarding Mike Portnoy

[King Postwhore]

you'd think Portnoy violently murdered 100 puppies in front of a room of kindergarteners.

Umm..Puppies On Acid?

You had to go there.

[ZeppelinDT]

you'd think Portnoy violently murdered 100 puppies in front of a room of kindergarteners.

Umm..Puppies On Acid?

Touche.

[KevShmev]

I think the strangest part about all of this is why so many people take it so seriously and get so riled up about it.  Who's to decide what he "should" or "shouldn't" say?  He just speaks his mind and some people agree with him while others don't.  But people act like everything he says has some major personal impact on their individual lives. Everybody just needs to get over it and move on.

That seems like a massive overstatement on your part.  Name one person whose individual life has been greatly impacted by his words, per their admission of it.

As for what he should or shouldn't say, when you are a public figure and you talk a lot, people are gonna react to that.  And in this case, you gotta figure that just about anybody who frequents a music forum is probably a huge music fan (or a huge fan of the band), and when a member of that band, which Portnoy was for a long time, talks a lot, it is gonna spark a lot of feedback.  This can't be a surprise to anyone.

Hell, I admitted I was wrong to go overboard with my criticism of the Master of Puppets cover back in 2002 (the criticism was legitimate, but I was over the top with the way I worded my criticism).  But did Mike Portnoy apologize for calling the fans who didn't like the cover assholes? 

Did he really call fans 'assholes?'

Unfortunately.  His comment was something along the lines of, "Ignore those assholes out there who were booing or criticizing us cover Master of Puppets."  I understand that he was probably defensive about some of the harsh criticism that was happening, but once he cooled off, an apology for that kind of talk was warranted.  And never came.  That was my main point earlier. 

[Bertielee]

My main concern with Mp is his attitude to lay the blame on everybody but himself and the fact that he won't apologize after a blunder, even if he's been proven wrong.
Apart from that, I don't care for the man, never have that much and never will.

B.Lee

[ZeppelinDT]

That seems like a massive overstatement on your part.  Name one person whose individual life has been greatly impacted by his words, per their admission of it.

There isn't anybody.  But that's my point.  Obviously this doesn't actually have a "great impact" on people's lives (outside of the band members and immediate friends/family etc.).  But my point was that people are acting as if it did.  If the people getting this angry and serious about it actually WERE impacted personally, then it would make much more sense.  But they aren't.  Which is the whole reason I find it silly.

This can't be a surprise to anyone.

Agreed.  After spending 10+ years on these boards, it's very much the opposite of surprising.  But I never said it was surprising.  I said it was strange.

[ZeppelinDT]

Unfortunately.  His comment was something along the lines of, "Ignore those assholes out there who were booing or criticizing us cover Master of Puppets."  I understand that he was probably defensive about some of the harsh criticism that was happening, but once he cooled off, an apology for that kind of talk was warranted.  And never came.  That was my main point earlier. 

Lol... was that when he totally called you out personally on dt.net?  Man... I still remember that.  I think you probably have a uniquely individual reason to be a little unhappy with his antics.

[Super Dude]

I've only read the OP, but I'm pretty sure I remember myself, Kev and a few others being pretty critical of MP when he was still in the band.

[ZeppelinDT]

I remember myself, Kev and a few others being pretty critical of MP when he was still in the band.

And about 1,000 other people...

[Super Dude]

I dunno man, around the time of SC I feel like we were a vocal minority, and most of those were 5/8ers who decided to switch over.

[KevShmev]

Unfortunately.  His comment was something along the lines of, "Ignore those assholes out there who were booing or criticizing us cover Master of Puppets."  I understand that he was probably defensive about some of the harsh criticism that was happening, but once he cooled off, an apology for that kind of talk was warranted.  And never came.  That was my main point earlier. 

Lol... was that when he totally called you out personally on dt.net?  Man... I still remember that.  I think you probably have a uniquely individual reason to be a little unhappy with his antics.

That was a few years later; I think shortly after the release of Train of Thought, which again was a time I was a bit too overly critical of the band, as I hated ToT at first and wasn't afraid to bash the crap out of it.  And he referenced me being critical of him on multiple forums (which meant he must have been reading the Spock's Beard forum, as that was the other main music forum I posted at regularly at the time). 

[Dublagent66]

My only criticism of MP is his behavior over the past 13 months.  That's it.

[El JoNNo]

When I heard he was leaving the band, I was happy. I was tired of his control freak ways. Now that he is gone they put out the best album in years. I really don't see it as a coincidence that the band seems to be in better state now.   

[Mladen]

My only criticism of MP is his behavior over the past 13 months.  That's it.

Same here. Being a fan since 2007 or 2008, there really wasn't anything about MP that bothered me until he left the band and all the shit went down. I was fine with it at first, but after a while, it became just impossible to react.

But still, I wouldn't go back and criticize him for something he had done ten years ago, because I wasn't around back then. And of course, he had done so many great things for the fans, and I'm incredibly thankful for that. He truly is the man in so many ways. And he's still my favorite drummer of all time, along with Neil Peart.

[TheGreatPretender]

Can someone explain to me how he was the driving force behind the albums OP mentioned? I mean, I don't know much about the conceptual aspects of production on those albums, but when he said "Driving Force" he didn't mean musically, did he?

[Millais]

My only criticism of MP is his behavior over the past 13 months.  That's it.

[iamtheeviltwin]

My only criticism of MP is his behavior over the past 13 months.  That's it.

Same here. Being a fan since 2007 or 2008, there really wasn't anything about MP that bothered me until he left the band and all the shit went down. I was fine with it at first, but after a while, it became just impossible to react.

But still, I wouldn't go back and criticize him for something he had done ten years ago, because I wasn't around back then. And of course, he had done so many great things for the fans, and I'm incredibly thankful for that. He truly is the man in so many ways. And he's still my favorite drummer of all time, along with Neil Peart.

This has been my issue with it.  MP seems to have really created an US/THEM attitude about the split and he reinforces it almost everytime he says something publically about the situation.  At first I just passed it off, but over time it has gotten harder to ignore.  Honestly, I was a DT fan long before I ever knew anything about the individual personalities involved.  So when MP, through his public actions/statements, basically wants me to choose sides, it is going to be with the band.  It doesn't seem like he has ever really tried to reach out to the DT community after the split, he just took his ball and left and then seemed shocked and angry when most of use didn't follow him.

(Also the MP/DT drama is just fun to read... )

[smegolas]

Can someone explain to me how he was the driving force behind the albums OP mentioned? I mean, I don't know much about the conceptual aspects of production on those albums, but when he said "Driving Force" he didn't mean musically, did he?

I certainly think Mike was a big contributor in the songwriting process.  Also, I'd like to point out that without Mike, we probably wouldnt have many of the DT DVDs that we enjoy, especially with the more unique things like the backstage footage, band commentaries, etc.

[TheGreatPretender]

This has been my issue with it.  MP seems to have really created an US/THEM attitude about the split and he reinforces it almost everytime he says something publically about the situation.  At first I just passed it off, but over time it has gotten harder to ignore.  Honestly, I was a DT fan long before I ever knew anything about the individual personalities involved.  So when MP, through his public actions/statements, basically wants me to choose sides, it is going to be with the band.  It doesn't seem like he has ever really tried to reach out to the DT community after the split, he just took his ball and left and then seemed shocked and angry when most of use didn't follow him.

(Also the MP/DT drama is just fun to read... )

Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of this. The thing is, I said the exact same thing. And even knowing the gist of their personalities, when MP left, I was like, "Well... It sucks that he had to do that... But I'm a fan of Dream Theater brand first and foremost, and each individual member second. So I'll continue to support them regardless." And that was it, I was still pretty heartbroken over the whole thing. But right off the bat, I wrongly assumed that everyone would be mature enough not to make it an actual tug of war over the fanbase. And let's face it, 4 of them vs. 1 of him, not to mention just how awesome Mangini is as a drummer AND as a person, how could the vast majority of DT fans NOT continue supporting DT?

And yes... As much as I try to defy these things, it's undeniable that as feeble as the concept may be, I do love me some controversy.

Can someone explain to me how he was the driving force behind the albums OP mentioned? I mean, I don't know much about the conceptual aspects of production on those albums, but when he said "Driving Force" he didn't mean musically, did he?

I certainly think Mike was a big contributor in the songwriting process.  Also, I'd like to point out that without Mike, we probably wouldnt have many of the DT DVDs that we enjoy, especially with the more unique things like the backstage footage, band commentaries, etc.

The DVDs and all that, for sure. The PR stuff that Mike used to do was extremely extensive. But like I said, while I don't know how much music he actually WROTE for those albums, the sound itself seemed to be centered on the Keyboards. For all three of the aforementioned albums, actually. I find that those 3 have some of the biggest Keyboard focus in all of DT's history. If that was MP's creative decision though, that's pretty cool. But I don't see how he was involved in the songwriting process for those albums anymore than he had been for ToT or especially the last 2 albums which seemed to have a lot of creative decisions insisted upon by MP, for better or for worse.

[Samsara]

Here's my take on Mike Portnoy:

The guy is a tremendous talent that went above and beyond the call of duty for fans. Every time I look at an official bootleg or put it on, I am reminded of that.

But at the end of the day, the guy just can't help but be the center of attention. I believe that in the past, he has claimed not to want that, and just wants to keep "his fans informed," but the guy has a lot of people telling him to keep his pie hole shut because he's doing more harm than good, and he just refuses to listen.

I'm a member of the media and had I been writing stuff on what is going on with DT, AMob, Portnoy, etc., Portnoy is a prime target. He's absolutely someone I would go to, because you never know what he'll say, and he's never at a loss for words.

But if I was MP's manager, I'd duct tape his mouth shut and make damn sure the guy just concentrates on making a statement with the music he is creating with his other bands for awhile.

The unfortunate thing is, I guarantee you people have told him that, but he can't help but open his yapper!

Best to MP and his family for the future. But the guy's big mouth and ego caused a lot of this himself. He knows he F'd up with DT, otherwise, he'd never have gone back to them wanting his job back. He thought he was bigger than the band, that the band would do what he wants. Well, it's a band. Regardless of MP's roles in the band, the band didn't belong to MP.

And MP's first and pretty much the biggest mistake was thinking that four other grown men with families would sacrifice their jobs and incomes (not to mention part of their legacy) because MP had grown tired with the DT routine. And after that, all the PR snafus caused by MP's mouth and ego.

You've made your bed, MP. Now lie in it.

Thanks for everything you've done, and the highest respect for your talent. But the only one MP should have blame for the situation and the fan backlash, is himself.

[dtnj]

Sorry if this was already mentioned.  I am interested what Mike said on this weeks episode of That Metal Show. 

[Ħ]

Let's not forgot that MP was (probably) the driving force behind A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

[TheGreatPretender]

Let's not forgot that MP was (probably) the driving force behind A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.

Again, that term. Are we talking about creatively? Because yes, MP has always been the guy who took charge the most with the band. That's almost like saying Freddie Mercury was the driving force behind Queen. In all fairness though, everyone who knows anything about Queen knows that the other musicians were equally as important to what that entity was.
Granted, maybe the powers weren't quite as evenly divided as with Queen.
I wouldn't deny that MP was the 'Leader' of the band as far, say, Lars Ulrich is the leader of Metallica. But it's not like he was the sole decision maker. They have always been a "BAND" first and foremost. And frankly, I had always considered JP to be the root sound of Dream Theater. His guitar playing is very unique and his vibe is very recognizable.

[Ħ]

I'm fairly confident that without MP's bold type A take-the initiative personality, DT would not be where they are today.

[TheGreatPretender]

I'm fairly confident that without MP's bold type A take-the initiative personality, DT would not be where they are today.

WHERE they are? Or who they are? Because where they are today is still going strong. And yes, if MP didn't bust some heads after the release of FII, DT might not exist today. So yes, at that particular time, they NEEDED him to keep the band alive.
But recently, his personal changes in taste had started to reflect DT a little too much and often in a negative way (his vocals).
Some people say MP's ego is what caused him to ended up where he is today, but there's two ways of looking at that. MP had become too big of a presence to be sharing so much spotlight with everyone. (and let's face it, everyone in DT is a genius at what they do). So it's not even necessarily a bad thing that he's become too big for DT. It's pretty much a compliment.

To be honest, when MP quit, I had my doubts about whether the rest of the band will be able to take over all of his responsibilities and keep the band going. But it's pretty evident that they're doing great without him. Which I guess shouldn't really come as a surprise because by now, they're well established in the world of Rock/Metal.

[KevShmev]

I'm fairly confident that without JP's guitar playing and songwriting, DT would not be where they are today.

I'm fairly confident that without JLB's voice, DT would not be where they are today.

See where this is going?

[Ħ]

I just wanted to emphasize that MP was not a bad asset/weakest link/whatever to the band while he was in it.  He was, in my opinion, the strongest member of the band.

[KevShmev]

I just wanted to emphasize that MP was not a bad asset/weakest link/whatever to the band while he was in it.   

I don't think anyone has ever said he was (unless someone was trolling or just being silly).  Some might not have liked some of the directions he pushed the band in over the last few years or some of the elements most assume he introduced to the band (like rougher vocals, for example), but I think just about everyone knows how important he was to the band for a long time.  Since JLB joined the band, there has never been a weakest link in Dream Theater.

[TheGreatPretender]

I just wanted to emphasize that MP was not a bad asset/weakest link/whatever to the band while he was in it.  He was, in my opinion, the strongest member of the band.

The most active, maybe, but definitely not the strongest. Maybe ON PAR with JP and Rudess insofar as they are all masters of their craft. But then again, you could say the same thing about every member of DT.
Yes, MP was the most active, in terms of he was the public representative of DT for all intents and purposes, the 'leader' of the band. So yes, definitely not the weakest link, but there were still certain parts of his personality and taste that I think were becoming a detriment to the overall music. Not the drumming, mind you, but the other aspects.

[reneranucci]

What I don't like about this issue is that people take it to a personal level, often doing exactly the same they accuse MP of, but in a much more douchebaggy way: acting immaturely, insulting others and making up stuff just to make the guy look bad.

Examples that can be found on this forum:
- People joking about his drinking problem.
- People saying JM was finally free from his iron fist and wanted to write lyrics again, when JM himself stated he would be writting lyrics for the new album way before MP left the band.
- People making the wildest speculations about what he did to other members or how he managed the relationships in the band, usually preceded by a phrase like "I have no evidence at all, but it wouldn't surprise me if MP...".

It's like they obtained some pleasure from dissing the guy. At the end of the day, he wanted a break from DT and their music to do some other stuff, he got what he wanted. The other guys carried on without him, that's good for everybody. That's all. Whatever he does or says is completely irrelevant to me apart from the music he records in the studio, it doesn't affect me in the slightest, and I don't feel like anybody has appointed me to judge his actions. But some people definitely feel the obligation to put him against their own moral standards and judge him accordingly.

EDIT: Another thing that I don't like is that MP takes most the blame for DT's recent musical output (which I love), when to me it's clear that if you don't like SC and BC&SL, you should point your finger to the other guys too. They were definitely getting lazy and this whole MP issue at least helped to shake things up and make them work harder.

[Ħ]

Who did people hate on before MP left the band?  I remember the Prater thread in the archives, but I can't remember what people griped about on the DT side.

[KevShmev]

I think a big part of the heavy criticism he has often gotten is how much heavy praise he gets.  The people who praise him do so in such a gushing manner, you'd think Mike Portnoy was the second coming of Jesus Christ, and I think some tend to make their criticism a little more harsh to kind of counterbalance the ridiculous amount of praise they feel he gets.  It's one of those cases where opinions are very extreme in both directions (the old love or hate thing), and the ultimate truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.  He is not the messiah like some would have us believe, and he is not the devil that others would have us believe (and to be fair, even though I have criticized him a lot over the years, I have expressed plenty of positive opinions as well, but they tend to get lost in the mix).

[El JoNNo]

I remember there still being people not impressed by MP.

[Samsara]

What I don't like about this issue is that people take it to a personal level, often doing exactly the same they accuse MP of, but in a much more douchebaggy way: acting immaturely, insulting others and making up stuff just to make the guy look bad.

Examples that can be found on this forum:
- People joking about his drinking problem.
- People saying JM was finally free from his iron fist and wanted to write lyrics again, when JM himself stated he would be writting lyrics for the new album way before MP left the band.
- People making the wildest speculations about what he did to other members or how he managed the relationships in the band, usually preceded by a phrase like "I have no evidence at all, but it wouldn't surprise me if MP...".

It's like they obtained some pleasure from dissing the guy. At the end of the day, he wanted a break from DT and their music to do some other stuff, he got what he wanted. The other guys carried on without him, that's good for everybody. That's all. Whatever he does or says is completely irrelevant to me apart from the music he records in the studio, it doesn't affect me in the slightest, and I don't feel like anybody has appointed me to judge his actions. But some people definitely feel the obligation to put him against their own moral standards and judge him accordingly.

I think that in-part, you're correct. But I also think your statement lumps in people that genuinely feel that discussion of MP is relevant. People want to pour credit on the man, and that's fine. But just because he's gone, it doesn't mean what MP does is off-limits discussion, particularly when he references the band.

You talk about judging him by peoples' own moral standards, well, everyone does that with everyone. You do it by even making that post. You're judging those that don't do things the way YOU do them.

The bottom line is MP was, is, and will continue to be a subject worthy of discussion. If someone doesn't want to take part in that discussion, simply don't take part in it.

EDIT: Another thing that I don't like is that MP takes most the blame for DT's recent musical output (which I love), when to me it's clear that if you don't like SC and BC&SL, you should point your finger to the other guys too. They were definitely getting lazy and this whole MP issue at least helped to shake things up and make them work harder.

They were getting lazy? So, are you BFF with JP and the rest of the crew and know them intimately? C'mon now. I agree that the entire party needs to have blame on it if you don't like a certain direction. Because guys could step up and say "no" if they really didn't want it.

And MP, may be entirely right that the band, in its form prior to his departure, was getting stale and needed a break (something I actually agree with).

But the main point (at least for me), isn't about the validity of WHY MP felt he wanted a break, but rather the way he went about it, and his need to be at the center of everyone's attention. That's still going to resonate around here, and it absolutely should. He's one of the founding members of Dream Theater, and no matter how many more records and tours DT does, MP will still be a hot topic for this community.

[Dublagent66]

My only criticism of MP is his behavior over the past 13 months.  That's it.

Same here. Being a fan since 2007 or 2008, there really wasn't anything about MP that bothered me until he left the band and all the shit went down. I was fine with it at first, but after a while, it became just impossible to react.

But still, I wouldn't go back and criticize him for something he had done ten years ago, because I wasn't around back then. And of course, he had done so many great things for the fans, and I'm incredibly thankful for that. He truly is the man in so many ways. And he's still my favorite drummer of all time, along with Neil Peart.

Agreed.  My two top drummers are also NP & MP.  They both put so much effort into their craft and MP always went the extra 100 miles for the fans.  I'll always be grateful for that.  Having said that, it makes the dramatic turn of events over the past year that much harder to get my head around.  I'm still baffled by it.  It is what it is, I guess.

[Bone_Daddy]

That was a few years later; I think shortly after the release of Train of Thought, which again was a time I was a bit too overly critical of the band, as I hated ToT at first and wasn't afraid to bash the crap out of it.

You and me both. I hammered ToT pretty hard in a review - maybe stepped over the line - and got banned immediately.

Either way, MP is pretty emotional and reacts accordingly. He is a public figure and there has to be some responsibility taken for his actions and statements. Outside of that, he's a musician. If you put any more value into his personality (or any public figure for that matter) than you should, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.