Regarding Mike Portnoy

[smegolas]

Guys, I have noticed a lot of shots at the expense of Mike Portnoy popping up in various threads, many regarding what he did when he was in the band.  Funny, but I don't remember too many shots about the same things while he was still in the band.  I'll admit, when I heard he had left, after I recovered from the initial shock, I actually thought it might result in a positive shift towards prog, which seems to have happened.  And yes, Mike has not handled himself well since leaving, and I suspect its partially because he is an emotional guy, and if he could have a mulligan he just might.  Regardless, MP lived and breathed DT for over 20 years.  He was a driving force behind I&W, SFAM, 6DOIT – some of the greatest albums ever made, imho.  You can say what you want about his behavior in the past year, but lets not take cheap shots at him for what he did while in DT.  I'm sure he reads some of this stuff, and I think he deserves a little more respect.

[KevShmev]

To quote Tony Soprano: Those who want respect, give respect.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

yeah he did some great stuff and some people trashed him a bit too hard. i honestly did follow anything between him and the fans until he left. the only thing i felt that he did that was a BIG mistake and inappropriate was that song "never enough." i dont care how upset you are or how shitty a fan was to you. you do NOT release a song like that and then charge your fans money to listen to that nonsense.

[bosk1]

Guys, I have noticed a lot of shots at the expense of Mike Portnoy popping up in various threads, many regarding what he did when he was in the band.  Funny, but I don't remember too many shots about the same things while he was still in the band.  I'll admit, when I heard he had left, after I recovered from the initial shock, I actually thought it might result in a positive shift towards prog, which seems to have happened.  And yes, Mike has not handled himself well since leaving, and I suspect its partially because he is an emotional guy, and if he could have a mulligan he just might.  Regardless, MP lived and breathed DT for over 20 years.  He was a driving force behind I&W, SFAM, 6DOIT – some of the greatest albums ever made, imho.  You can say what you want about his behavior in the past year, but lets not take cheap shots at him for what he did while in DT.  I'm sure he reads some of this stuff, and I think he deserves a little more respect.

Good post.  You bring up something important on the other side:

And yes, Mike has not handled himself well since leaving

This, of course, goes without saying also.  And legitimate criticism of this and other areas are fine, provided they are done respectfully.  Sometimes, people tend to either forget or lose track of where the line is, and it is an easy one to cross.  But good points in the OP.

[chrisbDTM]

To quote Tony Soprano: Those who want respect, give respect.

[bosk1]

To quote Tony Soprano: Those who want respect, give respect.

Absolutely true.  But as with most short, pithy statements, those willing to just throw that out there often don't stop to think that what they are saying equally applies to them.  Should Mike (and others) take that statement to heart and so some self-editing before saying certain things that give off an air of disrespect?  Check.  Should random posters on an Internet forum also take that same statement to heart and self-edit themselves before using it as an excuse to be disrespectful?  Check and double-check.

[lithium112]

yeah he did some great stuff and some people trashed him a bit too hard. i honestly did follow anything between him and the fans until he left. the only thing i felt that he did that was a BIG mistake and inappropriate was that song "never enough." i dont care how upset you are or how shitty a fan was to you. you do NOT release a song like that and then charge your fans money to listen to that nonsense.

I completely disagree. In Never Enough MP talked about a small group of "fans" (read: not real fans) that selfishly complained about stupid crap with complete disregard for the work that the band (and quite often just MP) put into their work/performance. If you feel like you're pouring out your life and soul in dedication to the fans, it certainly hurts to receive angry complaints from someone who didn't like the setlist from their show. It has been made abundantly clear that the song isn't a shot at all fans.

Unless you are one of the people complaining, and hence who the lyrics were directed at, I don't see why this song should offend you.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

yeah he did some great stuff and some people trashed him a bit too hard. i honestly did follow anything between him and the fans until he left. the only thing i felt that he did that was a BIG mistake and inappropriate was that song "never enough." i dont care how upset you are or how shitty a fan was to you. you do NOT release a song like that and then charge your fans money to listen to that nonsense.

I completely disagree. In Never Enough MP talked about a small group of "fans" (read: not real fans) that selfishly complained about stupid crap with complete disregard for the work that the band (and quite often just MP) put into their work/performance. If you feel like you're pouring out your life and soul in dedication to the fans, it certainly hurts to receive angry complaints from someone who didn't like the setlist from their show. It has been made abundantly clear that the song isn't a shot at all fans.

Unless you are one of the people complaining, and hence who the lyrics were directed at, I don't see why this song should offend you.

it didnt offend me because i wasnt someone to whom it was directed. i just thought it was inappropriate for a professional musician to do something like that or even get involved in that. you don't go out and make a song complaining about fans who complain. forget that i dont like the song, its just a dumb thing to do. you're a famous musician all over the world making a nice living from this. no shit you're going to have some of those people. EVERYONE who is in the entertainment business who is somebody has those people. it comes with the territory. i dont doubt there were fans who were completely out of line and didnt appreciate all the work that MP put in, but im sure some of those people actually were fans, as poorly as they behaved. it's not a thing i lose sleep over. im more disappointed that it wasnt a good song. im one of the fans who actually thinks portnoy was trashed too hard and im simply saying that the only thing i was ever aware of that i personally disagreed (unrelated to the music) with, although i admittedly didnt follow the back and forth very much, was releasing a song like that aimed at fans.

[KevShmev]

To quote Tony Soprano: Those who want respect, give respect.

Absolutely true.  But as with most short, pithy statements, those willing to just throw that out there often don't stop to think that what they are saying equally applies to them.  Should Mike (and others) take that statement to heart and so some self-editing before saying certain things that give off an air of disrespect?  Check.  Should random posters on an Internet forum also take that same statement to heart and self-edit themselves before using it as an excuse to be disrespectful?  Check and double-check.

For sure, and I have definitely gone overboard with criticism in the past, but most of the time I came around to realizing I had gone over the line and admitted I was wrong.  Hell, I admitted I was wrong to go overboard with my criticism of the Master of Puppets cover back in 2002 (the criticism was legitimate, but I was over the top with the way I worded my criticism).  But did Mike Portnoy apologize for calling the fans who didn't like the cover assholes?  Does he ever apologize for the disrespectful things he says and does?  The answer, of course, is no.  He is never wrong, and even if he ever realized that he was, he'd never admit it.  Unlike most of the rest of us.  While I am still fairly critical of Mike Portnoy the man (not the musician) a lot of the time, I am far more respectful in the way I say it than I used to be.  I mean, if I still posted about him like I did 7-9 years ago, I would have been banned from here a long time ago.

[gmillerdrake]

I have been upset at MP for the way he has handled a couple 'situations' including the way he left, but if I am honest, there really is no reason for me to have ever been mad or upset. I blame myself for building MP up in my mind and turning him into a man that he simply is not....and to be fair, never could have been. I set in place unrealistic expectations for him to live up to for whatever reason. The man was/is incredible at developing and cultivating a relationship with his fans...enough so (and I'll speak for myself but I assume it to be many) that I felt almost a personal connection with him. When in reality there was not one there. But that is just how charismatic the man can be.
  I realize that he is very calculated and allows only the information he really wants out there out there, and that is where the disappointment comes in for me. When I begin to learn that a guy I looked up to and thought one way about was actually another I began to understand that ...1: he never deserved the status I bestowed upon him and  2: he never really asked for it in the first place.
  Some of the things said about him I believe he may bring on himself because maybe he's getting caught in the web he's weaved, but in the end as he has tried to remind us and something that is forgotten and overlooked or maybe generally just not cared about due to the anynomity of the internet.....he is a man with feelings, a loving husband and father. And sharing those three qualities with him has helped me seperate myself from what I 'used' to think MP was and help me realize what he truly is. Just another guy trying to make a living and support his family, dealing with the same life issues as the rest of us.

[Orion1967]

I have been upset at MP for the way he has handled a couple 'situations' including the way he left, but if I am honest, there really is no reason for me to have ever been mad or upset. I blame myself for building MP up in my mind and turning him into a man that he simply is not....and to be fair, never could have been. I set in place unrealistic expectations for him to live up to for whatever reason. The man was/is incredible at developing and cultivating a relationship with his fans...enough so (and I'll speak for myself but I assume it to be many) that I felt almost a personal connection with him. When in reality there was not one there. But that is just how charismatic the man can be.
  I realize that he is very calculated and allows only the information he really wants out there out there, and that is where the disappointment comes in for me. When I begin to learn that a guy I looked up to and thought one way about was actually another I began to understand that ...1: he never deserved the status I bestowed upon him and  2: he never really asked for it in the first place.
  Some of the things said about him I believe he may bring on himself because maybe he's getting caught in the web he's weaved, but in the end as he has tried to remind us and something that is forgotten and overlooked or maybe generally just not cared about due to the anynomity of the internet.....he is a man with feelings, a loving husband and father. And sharing those three qualities with him has helped me seperate myself from what I 'used' to think MP was and help me realize what he truly is. Just another guy trying to make a living and support his family, dealing with the same life issues as the rest of us.

I know what you mean, it sucks discovering someone you looked up to, thought highly of or perhaps even idolized acts like a tool. 

[KevShmev]

In all honesty, his behavior of the past year is nothing new.  He has acted like this for a long time; remember the silly "Geoff Taint" name-calling incident?  But now that his words and actions are directed at the people his actions have long been in defense of (Dream Theater), many have taken note.  But really, all of this is nothing new. 

[Progmetty]

I haven't seen any overboard insults for MP since he left. No "cheap shots" either, you do funny stuff then funny stuff will be said about you, that goes for everyone.
And what's that about you not remembering anybody criticizing Mike when he was in the band? Musically; what's being discussed now are the same ones that's always been discussed.

[ZeppelinDT]

I think the strangest part about all of this is why so many people take it so seriously and get so riled up about it.  Who's to decide what he "should" or "shouldn't" say?  He just speaks his mind and some people agree with him while others don't.  But people act like everything he says has some major personal impact on their individual lives.  Everybody just needs to get over it and move on.

[ariich]

I think the strangest part about all of this is why so many people take it so seriously and get so riled up about it.  Who's to decide what he "should" or "shouldn't" say?  He just speaks his mind and some people agree with him while others don't.  But people act like everything he says has some major personal impact on their individual lives.  Everybody just needs to get over it and move on.

This exactly, but I've had to just accept that most people I know love to be judgemental about others.

[Cool Chris]

I do recall him saying something like: "if you like something DT does, give me the credit; if you hate it, give me the blame" which I thought was a stand-up thing to say. You can't take the credit but not the blame if you are the person behind all the decisions. Of course, than means you need to be accepting of the blame if you are want to be accepting of the praise. But I could be misremembering... 

Hell, I admitted I was wrong to go overboard with my criticism of the Master of Puppets cover back in 2002 (the criticism was legitimate, but I was over the top with the way I worded my criticism).  But did Mike Portnoy apologize for calling the fans who didn't like the cover assholes? 

Did he really call fans 'assholes?'

[Marion Crane]

What I find interesting is that none of us even found out he asked to come back until after we knew about MM and saw the documentary.  I bet if we had heard back in January that JP and the boys told him "No", a lot of us would've crucified them at that point for not giving him another chance.  It's all relative though.  That being said.....I love Mike Portnoy and always have.  I do think he could have handled himself better with this whole thing.  I still would prefer he never left DT.  But we definitely wouldn't have the DT we have now or the album we have now if he hadn't.  And he would still be unhappy.  So, everyone wins IMO.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think that, by the time Black Clouds was released, he was already the least liked of the DT members (at least, 'roud these parts). All the foolish thing he's done is just like throwing more fuel to the fire that's already been burning.

FOREVERMORE

INTO THE NIGHT

BLISTERING.

[Loser1]

Guys, I have noticed a lot of shots at the expense of Mike Portnoy popping up in various threads, many regarding what he did when he was in the band.  Funny, but I don't remember too many shots about the same things while he was still in the band.  I'll admit, when I heard he had left, after I recovered from the initial shock, I actually thought it might result in a positive shift towards prog, which seems to have happened.  And yes, Mike has not handled himself well since leaving, and I suspect its partially because he is an emotional guy, and if he could have a mulligan he just might.  Regardless, MP lived and breathed DT for over 20 years.  He was a driving force behind I&W, SFAM, 6DOIT – some of the greatest albums ever made, imho.  You can say what you want about his behavior in the past year, but lets not take cheap shots at him for what he did while in DT.  I'm sure he reads some of this stuff, and I think he deserves a little more respect.

Portnoy never held back when he was in DT, and afterwards. Perhaps he could have been more tactful, both in DT and after. But I think he was just going with what was in his head at the time. Some of his behaviors were reminiscent of "addict" behavior. The song Never Enough is a perfect example. I'm not accusing him of using drugs/alcohol again, I'm just citing some common behaviors of addicts who are using or not. Even after you have been sober, some behaviors remain.

I certainly have no ill words for him. Adrenaline Mob does nothing for me, but I can still respect his work in DT.

[tristl]

To quote Tony Soprano: Those who want respect, give respect.

Absolutely true.  But as with most short, pithy statements, those willing to just throw that out there often don't stop to think that what they are saying equally applies to them.  Should Mike (and others) take that statement to heart and so some self-editing before saying certain things that give off an air of disrespect?  Check.  Should random posters on an Internet forum also take that same statement to heart and self-edit themselves before using it as an excuse to be disrespectful?  Check and double-check.

Absolutley right,
the best IMO is not to talk about it as long there is no need to do it(for example further comments from MP) and just wait what time will bring, and which wounds can be healed.
In about two years there will hpefully be another brilliant DT output, we will see what MP will be up to by then and we can continue zo talk about it. :loser

[Podaar]

To be honest, I feel... empathy for him while at the same time I shake my head at some of his choices. But I always need to remind myself that I'm probably only getting 20% of the relevant information regarding his circumstances.

I wish him the best of luck, I really do, but you've got to admit that when music critics classify his current musical output as "midlife-crisis-metal" it's pretty funny. Not saying that's what's happening with him but it sure can look that way sometimes.

[rush-signals]

WOW I never even noticed the lyrics to Never Enough. It seems his departure seemed a bit planned, along with a lot of other lyrics. He seems very botter in those lyrics. But his reaction to fans in the songs can be in a huge part blamed back to him.

Kind of reminds me of Freddie Mercury where after his death you go back and listen to a lot of Queen songs and they seem to fit his life and departure too.

[johncal]

How about the idea of letting it go? MP's gone, in DT's history. Not worth bringing it up any more.

[rush-signals]

I don't agree at all. As a longtime fan he's part of the history and part of discussions, be it good or bad. So we never talk about any other band members who've left bands? Mike made his bed, now he las to lie it, and live with it. Not a hater of MP, just of his shenanigans after leaving the band! But I will say his antics have not made me a bigger MP fan by any means, IMHO.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

mike's not a bad guy in the end. i dont think he was nearly as arrogant as people made him out to be, especially when it came to drumming. he seemed really cool to the fans, besides that one thing i mentioned earlier. when i saw them live for the first time he invited people to come on stage and play drums. one of them was in the very last row. i was shocked when i saw all the hate on every one of his facebook posts. anyway, i like a lot of stuff he did in DT, but i think this change is for the best. i like adrenaline mob too. i think he sorta fits better in that band now anyway.

[Jamariquay]

Mike Portnoy did write The Mirror, which is a great song. I also enjoy The Glass Prison, Honor Thy Father, New Millennium, Just Let Me Breathe, and a number of other songs he had a hand in crafting.

I think it's probably safe to say that Portnoy had a big hand in pushing Dream Theater down heavier territory, and while I wouldn't call that shift successful 100% of the time, you do have to admit that when their heavy songs were good, they were fucking awesome.

He definitely cared about making a lot of things available for the fans. Different setlists on all their concert DVDs, rotating setlists in general, Ytse Jam in general.... I appreciate all those things.

I think it was... Rob Webster? who suggested that while Portnoy wasn't that good of a producer, he was great at almost everything else he did for the band, and I'd have to agree.

[Herrick]

I'm new to these forums so I don't know about Portnoy's history like some of you do. I've been a Dream Theater fan for 10 years but I haven't followed the band enough to know about their personalities, aside from the few interviews I've seen. Some people here are saying that Portnoy's always been this way? What way is that exactly? I haven't read all of his statements since leaving the band but the ones I've read don't seem bad to me. I understand the potential lawsuit thing rubbed many people the wrong way but there's so much legal stuff involved in this situation and we hardly have all the facts. What else has Portnoy done/said that's pissed off so many people?

[YtseJam]

How about the idea of letting it go? MP's gone, in DT's history. Not worth bringing it up any more.

Ummm I take it you've not seen the billions of Kevin Moore Threads?

[Jamesman42]

I think the strangest part about all of this is why so many people take it so seriously and get so riled up about it.  Who's to decide what he "should" or "shouldn't" say?  He just speaks his mind and some people agree with him while others don't.  But people act like everything he says has some major personal impact on their individual lives.  Everybody just needs to get over it and move on.

Well, firstly, he's not joking when he says it, so of course it is to be taken seriously.

Second, it's going to be discussed if it is a public thing.

Third, this is a DT discussion forum. This is DT related (most of the time). And it doesn't have this huge impact on my life or probably (hopefully) many others...but knowing/loving the band like we all do, how can you not take it down for some good, in-depth discussion?

[namgalsipsclar]

Portnoy always seemed like a bit of a dude to me if i'm honest

[DT2003]

Portnoy always seemed like a bit of a dude to me if i'm honest

Yea I can't believe what a dude he is 

[DT2003]

I have been upset at MP for the way he has handled a couple 'situations' including the way he left, but if I am honest, there really is no reason for me to have ever been mad or upset. I blame myself for building MP up in my mind and turning him into a man that he simply is not....and to be fair, never could have been. I set in place unrealistic expectations for him to live up to for whatever reason. The man was/is incredible at developing and cultivating a relationship with his fans...enough so (and I'll speak for myself but I assume it to be many) that I felt almost a personal connection with him. When in reality there was not one there. But that is just how charismatic the man can be.
  I realize that he is very calculated and allows only the information he really wants out there out there, and that is where the disappointment comes in for me. When I begin to learn that a guy I looked up to and thought one way about was actually another I began to understand that ...1: he never deserved the status I bestowed upon him and  2: he never really asked for it in the first place.
  Some of the things said about him I believe he may bring on himself because maybe he's getting caught in the web he's weaved, but in the end as he has tried to remind us and something that is forgotten and overlooked or maybe generally just not cared about due to the anynomity of the internet.....he is a man with feelings, a loving husband and father. And sharing those three qualities with him has helped me seperate myself from what I 'used' to think MP was and help me realize what he truly is. Just another guy trying to make a living and support his family, dealing with the same life issues as the rest of us.

Couldn't have said it better myself.  This is exactly how I feel.  I looked up to Mike much more than I should have, and unfortunately with some of the things I've learned recently, I've been very let down.  But I never should have looked up to him that much in the first place.

[Cranky]

I'm a little disappointed with Mike, sure, but he is a human being. And, I know I would probably do and say some of the same things he has done in the band, and out of it.
I think the fans, for the most part, are just blowing this out of proportion.. Yeah, he said some passive aggressive comments, and he was yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah, but that doesn't detract from the 25 years he has spent making the best music around with the rest of the boys in Dream Theater, giving so much to the fans in many ways..

I don't see Never Enough as a dick move on his part... He was frustrated with some of the fans that were less than grateful about whatever hard work they put into whatever album or whatever else they were being brats about. I would write a song like that too if I was in his position... I mean, some of the fans can get very spoiled and have impossible standards for the band, I know everyone knows what I am talking about, in general.

So, my main point being... Mike Portnoy is a human, he made some mistakes with what he was doing/did and what he is saying/ said, and he is going through a rough time right now, should he be over it by now? That's not anyone's right to say, but you don't have to crucify the man because he is acting out about not being in the band he was in for 25 years, all that is gone no., I just don't understand why people all of the sudden loathe him..

[ZeppelinDT]

Well, firstly, he's not joking when he says it, so of course it is to be taken seriously.

There's a difference between "taking something seriously" and "taking something TOO seriously".

Second, it's going to be discussed if it is a public thing.

I never said it shouldn't be discussed at all.  My point was that I think people are spending way too much time dwelling on it.

Third, this is a DT discussion forum. This is DT related (most of the time). And it doesn't have this huge impact on my life or probably (hopefully) many others...but knowing/loving the band like we all do, how can you not take it down for some good, in-depth discussion?

Obviously it'll be discussed in-depth.  But people seem incapable of having a mature, rational discussion about it and instead the trend seems to be to take bits and pieces of partial information, assume that partial information is ALL the relevant information and assume that they know everything there is to know about everything, and then make their judgments based on that partial information.

It's not so much the FACT that it gets discussed that's strange to me, as much as it is how angry people get over this.  Based on some of these threads you'd think Portnoy violently murdered 100 puppies in front of a room of kindergarteners.

[TAC]

you'd think Portnoy violently murdered 100 puppies in front of a room of kindergarteners.

Umm..Puppies On Acid?