Is The Great Debate the biggest tease ever?

[perfey]

Nope, it's one of my favourite DT songs, love it from start to finish. The atmosphere it creates is just amazing!

[Grinch]

I love the song but I feel like the solo section just doesn't fit.

[mallorier]

Not me...it was one of the first DT songs I really fell in love with, and it remains in my top 5 DT songs today

[EdenHazard]

I love the Intro as well as the song. The only thing I'm not really digging is the transition from the Intro into the actual song. Somehow it always feels a little cut off to me...

[Ruba]

The whole song is great, awesome build-up and especially the doom part is so heavy  . And "Pay attention"-part is the best James of 2000s.

I love the song but I feel like the solo section just doesn't fit.

Weird. It fits the song very well.

[robwebster]

I can't think of many songs with more explosions in, honestly. "Humankind has reached a turning point," "Are you justified," "Turn to the light," the solo... it's a series of very neat grooves building up to controlled explosions. Can't imagine liking the intro best. The bit directly after the intro is an explosion - just before the vocals come in. Then it settles down again, "what if someone said," which broods, fumes, builds momentum...

So no, I don't understand the OP at all! It's like how they say that if an animal could speak English, we still wouldn't be able to understand it, because the points of reference are so far detached. That's how I feel about the OP. Sorry, Kev! Our minds work differently on this one.

[Phoenix87x]

I always liked TGD. it's build-up has kind of a Tool vibe to it, which I always found interesting. Then it switches gears and goes into good, but not great territory.

    I still like the song though.

[Scorpion]

It just occurred to me that this might be the only non-instrumental that doesn't have the song title in the lyrics...

Regression?

Oh by the way, fucking awesome song. I understand that it's not everyone's piece of cake, but I love it, especially with the Awake-esque atmosphere of the whole song.

[Ruba]

It just occurred to me that this might be the only non-instrumental that doesn't have the song title in the lyrics...

Regression?

I don't hear any lies in Lie. Oh and Scarred, but it has "You don't see the scars". Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Honor Thy Father. Repentance. Prophets of War. The Ministry of Lost Souls. Breaking All Illusions. And a few songs, which would be unfair to count, because their titles don't fit into lyrics.

[Kotowboy]

I love The Great Debate - love the tone and atmosphere of it. The 46+2 bit is a bit like SRSLY ?     But great song nonetheless.

[Scorpion]

It just occurred to me that this might be the only non-instrumental that doesn't have the song title in the lyrics...

Regression?

I don't hear any lies in Lie. Oh and Scarred, but it has "You don't see the scars". Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Honor Thy Father. Repentance. Prophets of War. The Ministry of Lost Souls. Breaking All Illusions. And a few songs, which would be unfair to count, because their titles don't fit into lyrics.

New realities
Singularities
Breaking all illusions

For the sake of correctness. Oh, and what do you mean with songs whose titles don't fit into lyrics? Instrumentals?

[Stonestef]

One of my favourites of the whole discography.

[Ruba]

It just occurred to me that this might be the only non-instrumental that doesn't have the song title in the lyrics...

Regression?

I don't hear any lies in Lie. Oh and Scarred, but it has "You don't see the scars". Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Honor Thy Father. Repentance. Prophets of War. The Ministry of Lost Souls. Breaking All Illusions. And a few songs, which would be unfair to count, because their titles don't fit into lyrics.

New realities
Singularities
Breaking all illusions

For the sake of correctness. Oh, and what do you mean with songs whose titles don't fit into lyrics? Instrumentals?

Oh, thank you.

I mean Metropolis pt.1: The Miracle and the Sleeper, In the Presence of Enemies pt.1 and In the Presence of Enemies pt.2. They just aren't lyrics stuff.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

No, it's up there with the best DT songs.

[Lowdz]

Every time I listen to it, that is what I think.  The first few minutes are so great, the way it builds up with the drums, guitars, keys and samples all blending together wonderfully, but once the meat of the song kicks in, it becomes pretty ordinary, IMO.  Don't get me wrong, there are some great moments, but overall, the rest of the song is a big letdown after that incredible intro.  Anyone else feel this way?

No. I find the intro offputting to the extent I often don't listen to the song, and the rest of the song is really good. It didn't work live last year either.

[Lowdz]

It just occurred to me that this might be the only non-instrumental that doesn't have the song title in the lyrics...

Regression?

I don't hear any lies in Lie. Oh and Scarred, but it has "You don't see the scars". Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Honor Thy Father. Repentance. Prophets of War. The Ministry of Lost Souls. Breaking All Illusions. And a few songs, which would be unfair to count, because their titles don't fit into lyrics.

They are spoken in the background under the "I'll try I swear I try" part, and are in the lyric book in brackets.

[Scorpion]

It just occurred to me that this might be the only non-instrumental that doesn't have the song title in the lyrics...

Regression?

I don't hear any lies in Lie. Oh and Scarred, but it has "You don't see the scars". Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Honor Thy Father. Repentance. Prophets of War. The Ministry of Lost Souls. Breaking All Illusions. And a few songs, which would be unfair to count, because their titles don't fit into lyrics.

New realities
Singularities
Breaking all illusions

For the sake of correctness. Oh, and what do you mean with songs whose titles don't fit into lyrics? Instrumentals?

Oh, thank you.

I mean Metropolis pt.1: The Miracle and the Sleeper, In the Presence of Enemies pt.1 and In the Presence of Enemies pt.2. They just aren't lyrics stuff.

Ah okay. That makes sense, I suppose.

It just occurred to me that this might be the only non-instrumental that doesn't have the song title in the lyrics...

Regression?

I don't hear any lies in Lie. Oh and Scarred, but it has "You don't see the scars". Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Honor Thy Father. Repentance. Prophets of War. The Ministry of Lost Souls. Breaking All Illusions. And a few songs, which would be unfair to count, because their titles don't fit into lyrics.

They are spoken in the background under the "I'll try I swear I try" part, and are in the lyric book in brackets.

You're right. I never did notice, but now you said it, I can hear it, albeit very faintly.

[comment]

No, it's up there with the best DT songs.

This

[wolven74]

The intro sets the mood, but once the beautiful melodies kick in, I'm overwhelmed by joy. It's just filled with remarkable moments. It's like having a great song sandwiched between atmospheric intro and outro.

This. One of DTs best epics.

[Ruba]

It just occurred to me that this might be the only non-instrumental that doesn't have the song title in the lyrics...

Regression?

I don't hear any lies in Lie. Oh and Scarred, but it has "You don't see the scars". Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Honor Thy Father. Repentance. Prophets of War. The Ministry of Lost Souls. Breaking All Illusions. And a few songs, which would be unfair to count, because their titles don't fit into lyrics.

They are spoken in the background under the "I'll try I swear I try" part, and are in the lyric book in brackets.

I know, but I haven't heard them ever.

[kirksnosehair]

Every time I listen to it, that is what I think.  The first few minutes are so great, the way it builds up with the drums, guitars, keys and samples all blending together wonderfully, but once the meat of the song kicks in, it becomes pretty ordinary, IMO.  Don't get me wrong, there are some great moments, but overall, the rest of the song is a big letdown after that incredible intro.  Anyone else feel this way?

I think it's one of the best songs they've ever released.

[Woodworker1]

I like the fact that lyrically the issue is not resolved.  I also like the fact that both sides seem to be presented fairly.  I am against embryonic stem cell research (I do support ADULT stem cell research), and it is refreshing to hear "my" side of the argument fairly represented, something that doesn't happen very often in the MSM.

I wonder if there was a "great debate" among the band members themselves about embryonic stem cell research, and the lyrics reflect that? 

[Zook]

Great song and the instrumental is the shit. The obvious Tool riff and melodies don't bother me, but they probably shouldn't have copied that much from Tool. Especially since in one of those behind the scenes videos when showing the CDs that influenced the album, Ænema was among them.

Oh and every time I hear the "god's will" woman, I wanna punch her in the face.

[Ben_Jamin]

I love the song but I feel like the solo section just doesn't fit.

That's my only flaw with the song, could've been shorter.

[RaiseTheKnife]

The positioning of the lyrics and soundbites to coincide with the politics of the statement is sublime.  The songs concept is profoundly difficult to tackle and DT handles it with surgical skill.

[GasparXR]

Great song and the instrumental is the shit. The obvious Tool riff and melodies don't bother me, but they probably shouldn't have copied that much from Tool. Especially since in one of those behind the scenes videos when showing the CDs that influenced the album, Ænema was among them.

Oh and every time I hear the "god's will" woman, I wanna punch her in the face.

Haha, me too.

[SnakeEyes]

Am I the only one who thinks that there is a slight, slight lean towards being ANTI-stem cell research in this song?  I understand that it's supposed to be "in the middle" or "without an opinion," but it just seems like, ultimately it's very slightly against it, or at least leaning in that direction. 

It seems like the "anti-stem cell" arguments are more descriptive and stronger than the "pro-stem cell" arguments.  For example:

anti-stem cell:

Harvesting existence
Only to destroy
Carelessly together
We are sliding

Someone else's future
Four days frozen still
Someone else's fate
We are deciding

pro-stem cell:

Miracle potential
Sanctity of life
Faced against each other
We're divided

[robwebster]

Am I the only one who thinks that there is a slight, slight lean towards being ANTI-stem cell research in this song?  I understand that it's supposed to be "in the middle" or "without an opinion," but it just seems like, ultimately it's very slightly against it, or at least leaning in that direction. 

It seems like the "anti-stem cell" arguments are more descriptive and stronger than the "pro-stem cell" arguments.  For example:

anti-stem cell:

Harvesting existence
Only to destroy
Carelessly together
We are sliding

Someone else's future
Four days frozen still
Someone else's fate
We are deciding

pro-stem cell:

Miracle potential
Sanctity of life
Faced against each other
We're divided

I don't know! I'm basically pro stem cell, and I've never felt it was biased against me particularly. You could argue the stanza in the middle's neutral - I don't think it is, I agree that it leans ever so slightly to the "anti," but it's not trowelled on on is what I'm getting at.

Argument isn't really done on volume, anyway. Even if we count up how which lines voice which perspective, it's not like the pro views are a footnote and the rest is just pious diatribe, both sides get a pretty fair hearing. Uniquely even-handed, I'd say.

[Ħ]

Pretty sure it's just meant to represent the positions of both sides. It never makes its own stance.

Something interesting - the verses from the right are heard in the right channel, and the verses from the left are in the left channel. It's been a while since I listened to the song but I think it's that way throughout the whole song.

[Sigz]

I actually really like TGD. Not to hot on the lyrics, but the music is really good.

[The King in Crimson]

I think it's one of DT's best songs, lyrically and musically.

[RaiseTheKnife]

Snake Eyes, I think you have to factor in all the lyrics in the song, as your example is missing some "pro" lyrics (ie first verse).  I think it is presented 50/50, especially if you include the soundbites in weighing the argument.

[ColdFireYYZ]

I love it. Its probably in my top 10 DT tracks and its my favorite song on the first disc of SDOIT.

[SnakeEyes]

Snake Eyes, I think you have to factor in all the lyrics in the song, as your example is missing some "pro" lyrics (ie first verse).  I think it is presented 50/50, especially if you include the soundbites in weighing the argument.

Hmmmm, yes, I went through the lyrics and labeled each section "pro," "against" or "equal."  As you can see below, there are five "pros" and six "against," BUT that's if you consider "ARE YOU JUSTIFIED" and you'd have to include the repeat of that part because it occurs twice in the song.  So, yes, I agree with you. 

PRO  What if someone said
Promise lies ahead
Hopes are high in certain scientific circles
Life won't have to end
You could walk again

AGAINSTWhat if someone said
Problems lie ahead
They've uncovered something highly controversial
The right to life is strong
Can't you see it's wrong

EQUALHuman kind has reached a turning point
Poised for conflict at ground zero
Ready for a war
Do we look to our unearthly guide
Or the white coat heroes
Searching for a cure

[note: I put "equal" for the chorus because this can be interpreted either way -- i.e., it's not completely obvious like the other parts]

EQUALTurn to the light
Don't be frightened of the shadows it creates
Turn to the light
Turning away would be a terrible mistake

AGAINSTAnarchistic moral vision
Industries of death
Facing violent opposition
Unmolested breath

PROEthic inquisitions breed
Antagonistic views
Right wing soundbyte premonitions
In a labyrinth of rules

AGAINSTAre you justified
Are you justified
Are you justified
Justified in taking
Life to save life
Life to save life
Life to save life

PROThis embryonic clay
Wrapped in fierce debate
Would be thrown away
Or otherwise discarded

PROSome of us believe
It may hold the key
To treatment of disease
And secrets highly guarded

AGAINSTAre you justified
Are you justified
Are you justified
Justified in taking
Life to save life
Life to save life
Life to save life

EQUALHumankind has reached a turning point
Poised for conflict at ground zero
Ready for a war
Do we look to our unearthly guide
Or to white coat heroes
Searching for a cure

EQUALTurn to the light
Don't be frightened of the shadows it creates
Turn to the light
Turning away would be a terrible mistake

EQUALWe're reaching
But have we gone too far

AGAINSTHarvesting existence
Only to destroy
Carelessly together
We are sliding

AGAINSTSomeone else's future
Four days frozen still
Someone else's fate
We are deciding

PROMiracle potential
Sanctity of life
Faced against each other
We're divided

EQUALShould we push the boundaries
Or should we condemn
Moral guilt and science
Have collided

EQUALTurn to the light
We defy our own mortality these days
Turn to the light
Pay attention to the questions we have raised

[theseoafs]

The "miracle potential" stanza isn't really for stem cells (check out the next line). It's like an overview of the two sides.