MP has filed a lawsuit against Dream Theater

[PetFish]

Considering how much of a gong show this whole situation has turned into I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if MP decided he wanted to sue Avenged Sevenfold for continuing without him.  At this point it's so way beyond ridiculous that this insane scenario doesn't even seem far-fetched.

[Chrissalix]

Possessive obsessions selfish childish games
Vengeful resentments
Passing all the blame
Living out a life of decadence
Acing without thought of consequence
Spreading all your lies from coast to coast
While spitting on the ones that matter most

Running power mad with no control
Fighting for the credit they once stole
No one can ever tell you what to do
Ruling other's lives while the can't stand the thought of you


The sheer amount of Portnoy's own lyrics which now appear really, really hypocritical is both scary and downright funny.

[ReaPsTA]

I'm pretty sure that suing Dream Theater over the rights to their name forces a reconsideration of everything that Portnoy has said and done ever.

[Metabog]

Oh.  Obviously I read too much into the post I read over at MP's forum.  Wey is not...in fact...quitting.  Or he decided not to quit.  So I guess I can't use that as a gauge as to how people "close" to Mike feel about all this.  Well, that was weird.  I could swear there was only one way to read all that...but obviously, there are several and I chose the wrong one.  Last post about this guy...right here.  Last post with this guy's name or with him as a subject.

I don't think Mike's the scum-of-the-earth because of all this.  I don't know that he's been deceptive on purpose.  It seems that way, but what do I know?  All bands do this?  I'm hearing that?  All bands that have people split do this?  Then I guess they all do it then.  He's still St. Mike.  Hey...my life is less than interesting, so I come here.  Read a few things.  Post a thing.  I don't want anyone to feel bad.  He's a drummer.  He's under know legal obligation to be a swell guy.  I stuck up for him last week.  Sat right here and said I'd find it hard to be cool to people that have said what James and Jordan had said in recent interviews.  Maybe I was wrong.  It doesn't matter.  Mike doesn't care what I think. 

Everyone goes off in every direction.  I just read a post over there where some guy tells Wey he's the "best guy he's encountered on the internet."  Then he says he doesn't know him real good.  I can't believe anyone who matters reads what we put out there anyway.  It's different over on MP's forum I guess.  I can see that.  Anyway.  This rant is done.  Good luck Mike, MP forum, and everyone else associated with all that.  I'm done with this subject.

He only came back because Mike's wife made him feel bad... and probably out of pity. This has gone beyond band matters, I think Mike's problems are getting or have gotten pretty personal in nature, and he fears for his career. I think that story of him kicking his tech kind of polarized everyone, it's interesting to see how everyone immediately calmed down about it when someone called it fake.

edit: yeah, just checked, people have gone back to willful ignorance over on the other forum.

[ReaPsTA]

I find the tech story super dubious.  When the person who supposedly knows a story says 'I can't tell everyone anything more than salacious yet vague details' it's probably bullshit.

He only came back because Mike's wife made him feel bad

Heh.  Probably.

[darkshade]

I'm pretty sure that suing Dream Theater over the rights to their name forces a reconsideration of everything that Portnoy has said and done ever.

At least in the last few years.

[ariich]

Bosk and others, thanks for the legal insight. I know a little about company law from my accountancy studies, and thinking of the situation in that way makes a lot of sense. I do hope it is just that, but who knows if we'll ever find out.

[CodyWanKenobi]

 So anyway, how about that Mangini? Damn he's good. 

[Metabog]

I find the tech story super dubious.  When the person who supposedly knows a story says 'I can't tell everyone anything more than salacious yet vague details' it's probably bullshit.

He only came back because Mike's wife made him feel bad

Heh.  Probably.

I know right, he keeps saying "There's more to it then meets the eye, you're not getting the whole story, etc", but what could the rest of the story be and how can it possibly exonerate him from having sued DT? Is he saying he's NOT the bad guy in this? Because if so, then that can only be a shot at DT.

To me it sounds like he's being intentionally vague and the truth is as simple as we think it is.

You know a while back people were discussing the rumor that he sued DT. I made a post saying "so far the rumors have been completely true, and this is probably true as well" and as usual everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt, and AS USUAL the negative rumors about MP are true, not to mention it brought other stuff to the surface that may or may not be true. I think it's time to stop kissing ass and face that most us like, listen to and respect DT, and he isn't part of that sentiment any more. And as far as I can see this, AM is NOT a substitute for that. It's insane, that band sounds like almost all of the bad stuff from recent DT has been excised and turned into a separate band, and that band is AM. I can only imagine him sitting there and telling Russell Allen how to sing more "metul" to the point that he sounds at his absolute worst (and he's usual a mindblowing singer). It's mothafuckin psychosane.

I'm sorry, I get that it's sad for him and his career is at stake, and that some of this stuff degenerated way too far, but I stopped being a MP fan around SC when it started to become obvious that he was injecting his own idea of what Dream Theater should sound like because he got 'bored' or whatever of what they used to be like. And it wasn't just me, the feeling was widespread at least in my circle of DT fan friends. It became a bit of a joke to all of us, including here on the forum sometimes, although we kept giving him the benefit of the doubt. Now he quit, and not only has he taken the exact same musical style with him, but he's doing this stuff. It's kind of hard to care for him that much now beyond pity. I don't like using the word "respect", because that's an unfair thing to lose over creative differences, but suing the band that you basically "ARE", and the band that you left, is grounds for disrespect, no matter how much you apologize.

Everyone keeps asking why we're taking this so personally. We're taking it personally because a lot of us looked up to him musically, and some of use went into our current careers because at some point in our lives we discovered Dream Theater and him, and said "holy shit, this is nuts", and now we find out this has happened. If you've closed your eyes for the past three years, I get how you'd be dissapointed, but if you saw this coming years ago, there is less impact.

[Perpetual Change]

I find the tech story super dubious.  When the person who supposedly knows a story says 'I can't tell everyone anything more than salacious yet vague details' it's probably bullshit.

He only came back because Mike's wife made him feel bad

Heh.  Probably.

I know right, he keeps saying "There's more to it then meets the eye, you're not getting the whole story, etc", but what could the rest of the story be and how can it possibly exonerate him from having sued DT? Is he saying he's NOT the bad guy in this? Because if so, then that can only be a shot at DT.

To me it sounds like he's being intentionally vague and the truth is as simple as we think it is.

You know a while back people were discussing the rumor that he sued DT. I made a post saying "so far the rumors have been completely true, and this is probably true as well" and as usual everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt, and AS USUAL the negative rumors about MP are true, not to mention it brought other stuff to the surface that may or may not be true but is sickening either way. I think it's time to stop kissing ass and face that most us like, listen to and respect DT, and he isn't part of that sentiment any more. And as far as I can see this, AM is NOT a substitute for that. It's insane, that band sounds like almost all of the bad stuff from recent DT has been excised and turned into a separate band, and that band is AM. I can only imagine him sitting there and telling Russell Allen how to sing more "metul" to the point that he sounds at his absolute worst (and he's usual a mindblowing singer). It's mothafuckin psychosane.

I'm sorry, I get that it's sad for him and his career is at stake, and that some of this stuff degenerated way too far, but I stopped being a MP fan around SC when it started to become obvious that he was injecting his own idea of what Dream Theater should sound like because he got 'bored' or whatever of what they used to be like. And it wasn't just me, the feeling was widespread at least in my circle of DT fan friends. It became a bit of a joke to all of us, including here on the forum sometimes, although we kept giving him the benefit of the doubt. Now he quit, and not only has he taken the exact same musical style with him, but he's doing this stuff. It's kind of hard to care for him that much now beyond pity. I don't like using the word "respect", because that's an unfair thing to lose over creative differences, but suing the band that you basically "ARE", and the band that you left, is grounds for disrespect, no matter how much you apologize.

Everyone keeps asking why we're taking this so personally. We're taking it personally because a lot of us looked up to him musically, and some of use went into our current careers because at some point in our lives we discovered Dream Theater and him, and said "holy shit, this is nuts", and now we find out this has happened. If you've closed your eyes for the past three years, I get how you'd be dissapointed, but if you saw this coming years ago, there is less impact.

Trophy-post right here.

As this all unfolds, it's starting to seem like every bad thing anyone's ever dared to utter about Portnoy here was more true than fans at the time would have liked to admit.

[CodyWanKenobi]

Everyone keeps asking why we're taking this so personally. We're taking it personally because a lot of us looked up to him musically, and some of use went into our current careers because at some point in our lives we discovered Dream Theater and him, and said "holy shit, this is nuts", and now we find out this has happened. If you've closed your eyes for the past three years, I get how you'd be dissapointed, but if you saw this coming years ago, there is less impact.

This was worded beautifully, and I couldn't agree more.

[Xanthul]

not to mention it brought other stuff to the surface that may or may not be true but is sickening either way

If it's not true, I don't understand how it would be sickening.

I'm disgusted by all this as much as the next guy, but MP never struck me as a particularly violent person. I always take this kind of stories with a lot of caution, especially when they come out at MP's lowest point.

[ReaPsTA]

I know right, he keeps saying "There's more to it then meets the eye, you're not getting the whole story, etc", but what could the rest of the story be and how can it possibly exonerate him from having sued DT? Is he saying he's NOT the bad guy in this? Because if so, then that can only be a shot at DT.

To me it sounds like he's being intentionally vague and the truth is as simple as we think it is.

Wey said in his return letter that MP and his family were at risk of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars and a lawsuit.  Why does this make MP look sympathetic?  I know these things can be stressful, but they're also the consequences of filing such a high stakes lawsuit.  You reap what you sow.

You know a while back people were discussing the rumor that he sued DT. I made a post saying "so far the rumors have been completely true, and this is probably true as well" and as usual everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt, and AS USUAL the negative rumors about MP are true, not to mention it brought other stuff to the surface that may or may not be true. I think it's time to stop kissing ass and face that most us like, listen to and respect DT, and he isn't part of that sentiment any more.

I... have to kind of agree.

Everyone keeps asking why we're taking this so personally. We're taking it personally because a lot of us looked up to him musically, and some of use went into our current careers because at some point in our lives we discovered Dream Theater and him, and said "holy shit, this is nuts", and now we find out this has happened. If you've closed your eyes for the past three years, I get how you'd be dissapointed, but if you saw this coming years ago, there is less impact.

Yep, 100% know what you mean.  I'm in my current college major (Broadcasting) because my cousin gave me a bunch of music, I saw a folder labelled "Dream Theater" and clicked on The Dance of Eternity.mp3.

[darkshade]

Thinking about it, DT was a band I got into 8 years ago and have more personal musical history with them than any any other band or artist in my collection, so this comes as very disappointing as well. I just read through these pages since I was offline all day and if someone had told me 13 months ago that this would all be going on, I'd have slapped them silly.

[?]

To quote this: https://www.courthousenews.com/2011/04/28/New_Complaints.htm

Portnoy's Complaint

     MANHATTAN - Mike Portnoy claims his former bandmates in the rock band (nonparty) Dream Theater booted him out unfairly and are using the band's name unfairly. Click headline to see defendants.
     Here are the defendants: John Petrucci, John Myung, James LaBrie, Jordan Rudess, Ytse Jams Inc., and Infinity Tours.

...And the statement he made in September 2010:

After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater....the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century.

I'm sorry but I just can't help doing this:
IMO it's obvious that if you leave the band, you give up the rights to the band's name.

[CodyWanKenobi]

After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater....the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century.

I'm sorry but I just can't help doing this:
IMO it's obvious that if you leave the band, you give up the rights to the band's name.

Yes. It would be different if DT disbanded, and then JP, JR, JLB, and JMX tried to reform excluding MP while still using the DT name - That's kinda what happened with Sublime. Brad died, so they broke up. Thirteen years later, Eric and Bud decided they wanted to do Sublime again, so they recruited Rome Ramirez to replace Brad and continue Sublime, but Brad's family bitched about them performing under the name 'Sublime', so they legally had to change their name to 'Sublime With Rome'. Not that anyone cares, just trying to make a connection. You know, give an example.

[ReaPsTA]

I agree with you guys from a moral/ethical/commonsense kind of standpoint.  No matter what else happens, this piece of news probably ruined MP's career, or at least set it back by years.

But that's not the same as his legal ability to get the verdict/settlement he wants.

[darkshade]

Well I'm still going to check out MMPLM, since that was recorded in January 2011, months before this all went down. And I like Neal Morse and Steve Morse.

In fact, I'll still check out MP related things as long as there are players I like, such as Transatlantic. However, MP being on such releases will not be the big draw for me anymore, especially due to his interest in mediocre music.

[gilpdawg]

How much do you guys think this revelation is going to hurt Portnoy's future projects, especially in the short term?

He's going to lose some fans, that's for sure.


That will also mean The Mob.... losing some fans.

I said the same thing while talking to my buddy earlier tonight. Mike needs DT fans to support his shit. Alienate them and he has to start over. Dude has a built in audience for almost anything he does, and now he's shitting where he eats.

[Amoniz]

Now that I think of it... "Never enough" makes sense
Wow, all those 12 steps RIGHT DOWN THE DRAIN.
You know, I really looked up to Mike, as a mentor, damn I learned those odd times from his videos...
I thought he was this honest, down to earth guy.
But now THIS?!
I mean he's actively RUINING his "child" for nothing!

[Cruithne]

Maybe the members of DT are in fact enormous assholes and are threatening a disproportionately reactive counter-suit.  If MP is to be believed (if that's even possible), DT lawyered up before he did.  The whole story has yet to be told (although I have to believe Rich Wilson is going bonkers).

DT will have lawyered up as soon as MP formally told them he was quitting, or more likely they will have contacted lawyers that already dealt with the band's business and requested that they begin proceedings to formalise MP's exit. I'd have expected MP to contact his lawyers that early too.

I speculated a long time ago on MP's forum that the reason why members of the band hadn't responded to MP "reaching out" to them was because there were legal issues concerning the split and they'd been advised not to contact him personally and I still suspect it to be the case.

After all, if it were to come down to a court case then any personal emails would become fair game and the lawyers wouldn't want to find out that their case had been damaged by emails they knew nothing of.

I have to admit my first reaction to the lawsuit was one of anger and shock, but I think I need to retain an open mind. I suspect there's simply a disconnect between the two parties perceptions of how much MP should receive from DT's future earnings and they're simply going down the route of letting the courts arbitrate.

To the majority of us, who will only ever be employees of someone else's company, the idea of being sued is quite galling, but I don't think it's anything like as significant to a band that's been around as long as DT has and has already worked its way through a few ex-band members.

You mentioned, in his defense, that his family was in danger of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars?  What about MP trying to destroy DT's career?  What fact we aren't aware of makes his case even remotely sympathetic?

That bit is hilarious. There's no part of the possibility that he might lose that amount of money that makes me sympathetic to his plight. The mere fact that this point was made is indicative of how disconnected from every day reality he has gotten. I'm happy for him that he can risk blowing that amount of money in the first fecking place!

The first thing Portnoy should have done once he quit was hire a publicist to manage his public image. He's been his own worst enemy over the past year.

[ReaPsTA]

I have to admit my first reaction to the lawsuit was one of anger and shock, but I think I need to retain an open mind. I suspect there's simply a disconnect between the two parties perceptions of how much MP should receive from DT's future earnings and they're simply going down the route of letting the courts arbitrate.

Most of your post was insightful/informative/awesome, but I don't get this point.  If MP only sued them for money, then I'd agree.  But he sued them for partial control of the band name, which takes this into different territory entirely.

[Perpetual Change]

After thinking about it on and off throughout the day, I've come to the conclusion that there's precisely ONE possibility where I might find Mike's acts justified. That is, if the band actually tried to shaft him first, by not wanting to give him what he did actually deserve in terms of publishing and whatnot, and then he used an equally extreme measure in order to meet them halfway. Not a legal expert, though, so I don't know if that actually happens.

[Cruithne]

Most of your post was insightful/informative/awesome, but I don't get this point.  If MP only sued them for money, then I'd agree.  But he sued them for partial control of the band name, which takes this into different territory entirely.

From the lawyer's point of view he's trying to get the best deal for his client and the starting point for negotiations amounts to: "my client has not yet signed away his vested interest in Dream Theater's affairs and therefore Dream Theater continuing to trade without my client's express permission amounts to a serious breach of contract and thus we request the band to cease and desist trading and provide adequate compensation to my client."

i.e. I think it's the only bargaining chip the lawyers have on which to predicate the lawsuit and secure the best outcome for their client.

It looks really ugly to the fan and looks like he's threatening the future of the band, but I think it's fairly typical for lawyers to take the most extreme starting position possible so that when the negotiations really begin the opposing side will feel relieved when the middle ground that their client was actually aiming for is reached.

And if they do get a settlement that's close to their original demands they get to crow about it to future clients!

Lawyers get paid by the hour so it's always in their own interests to keep law suits dragging on and on. Sociopathic wankers, most of them 

[kon_jakae]

I also wonder if it is what MP really wants that the remaining or current members decide to pay damages for MP to resolve the dispute and decide to change the name to overcome this requirement-of-consent thing which means that there would be no such a band named "Dream Theater" any more, as this is what that could be expected from lawsuit.

According to his earlier statement, he decided to quit as he thought that he did not want to deter other members in carrying on (as "Dream Theater", I supposed ?). Now that he filed lawsuit mentioning of the lack of his consent, as fas as the current members would like to carry on with the name "Dream Theater", it seems to me that he would like to be recognized as a part of "Dream Theater " forever. As according to the claim, the result that could be expected is that 'you can use the name as long as you pay and consent by MP is provided.

However, it could be expected that the current members would decide to change the name of the band, as it is not certain to rely on whether or not MP would provide or withdraw his consent.

The more I think of it, the more I feel so sorry for all of them

[kon_jakae]

After thinking about it on and off throughout the day, I've come to the conclusion that there's precisely ONE possibility where I might find Mike's acts justified. That is, if the band actually tried to shaft him first, by not wanting to give him what he did actually deserve in terms of publishing and whatnot, and then he used an equally extreme measure in order to meet them halfway. Not a legal expert, though, so I don't know if that actually happens.

If he does have entitlement to something, there should be grounds or sources of it, such as agreement or legal provision. Unfortunately that there is none mentioned in the summon document. IMHO, this lawsuit is not about business only. I believe that most of business issues may have already been agreed upon, otherwise, it would have been raised in this lawsuit.

However, this would be just my vague and random guess as a lawyer, as lawyers may have different methods or style of handling the case. This lawsuit may be brought only as incentive for the other parties (the defendants) to consider establishing negotiation. Maybe the story would finally end beautifully through negotiation....  That is all I could hope for all of them.

[Perpetual Change]

Ok, so... how many lawyers do we have on DTF anyway?

[Bertielee]

If I get what you mean, Kon, it means that MP could be entitled money for ADToE, even if he isn't on it?

B.Lee

[BlobVanDam]

Ok, so... how many lawyers do we have on DTF anyway?

I was actually under the impression you had to be a lawyer to sign up here. Aren't you?

[Zukuduku]

My first thought after reading the summons was that MP really does not want this case to go to a jury trial. The band's attorneys have plenty of ammunition to show MP in a very bad light. Especially if there have been any negotiations about extending the A7X gig or possibly even joining the band as a full member, those details will become public record in the possible trial and will make MP look quite bad. Note that I do not have any information that those negotiations have existed,  but as the A7X members referred to MP's high salary, I am assuming that they must have discussed about it at some point.

[kon_jakae]

If I get what you mean, Kon, it means that MP could be entitled money for ADToE, even if he isn't on it?

B.Lee

Don't take my opinion seriously, as there are numbers of possibilities because we never know the facts. Please also be noted that I am not a lawyer practicing in the U.S.

I would say it in general. As shareholder, consideration for your investment in form of shares in a company could be dividends distributed by the company from its profit from time to time depending on the class of share and the portion you hold. As long as you are a shareholder, you may be entitled to dividend once it is distributed.

Director may or may not be an employee and/or shareholder of the company. Employees could be shareholder and/or director. For a small or closely-held company, shareholders may also be directors and employees at the same time. There is also possibility that there are separate agreements regarding different issues between members of the company.

So, we never know. Even though we do know the facts, it is still not easy, even for a lawyer, as lots of interpretation and presumption may still be required. It may also depend on the aspect of viewing the case.

As a lawyer, I like it most when every parties to the dispute has a heart to reconcile, as the chance for them to lose relationship is negative, i.e. win-win situation is possible, while the lawsuit is usually about win and lose, it could even be a zero-sum.

[Chrissalix]

My first thought after reading the summons was that MP really does not want this case to go to a jury trial. The band's attorneys have plenty of ammunition to show MP in a very bad light. Especially if there have been any negotiations about extending the A7X gig or possibly even joining the band as a full member, those details will become public record in the possible trial and will make MP look quite bad. Note that I do not have any information that those negotiations have existed,  but as the A7X members referred to MP's high salary, I am assuming that they must have discussed about it at some point.

I'm no lawyer (unlike everyone else here apparently) but it's apparent to me that the deeper this goes and the longer this goes on, the more MP is going to get destroyed by DT's lawyers or failing that, he'll destroy his own reputation. I don't see how he can win, even if he does win the case he'll always be that guy who sued his own band, his best friends.


Some of us choose to live gracefully
Some can get caught in the maze
And lose their way home
Memories will fade
Time races on
What will they say after you're gone?
- This is The Life, John Petrucci.

[Bertielee]

Thanks for the enlightenment, Kon.

B.Lee

[FsF]

Am I the only one that had a wee chuckle at the pun on the Courthouse News Service website? 'Portnoy's Complaint'.

[Cruithne]

If I get what you mean, Kon, it means that MP could be entitled money for ADToE, even if he isn't on it?

B.Lee

Yep. For a key portion of their career he was instrumental in their success (how much so is a matter of debate) and the argument goes that without his prior involvement they wouldn't be in a position to be making a living off the band and thus any future earnings they receive are only possible because of his said prior involvement and therefore he is owed a portion of their future earnings... I think that's the rough argument anyway.

The following is just idle speculation and might be way off... Someone with experience of the kind of contracts bands use will hopefully be able to give us a clearer picture...

[speculation]
I would expect that any settlement would see that portion of earnings reduce over time as the band forges its own identity without MP.

However, I'm still fairly sure that the way bands set themselves up is that the members become the significant shareholders in the corporation that is the band and are paid out dividends from their shares each year rather than just drawing a fixed salary, thus unless they buy MP out then he retains a say in how the band conducts their business and still gets his dividend paid out at the end of the financial term.

I would guess that their contracts will have a clause that defines how much of the share-holdings then can retain if they quit, but I'm not sure if that's even legally possible.

Atm I'd expect MM to have little-to-no holdings in the DT corporation and he'll just be earning a fixed salary but over time he will gain more shares in the business.
[/speculation]