DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Nick on September 19, 2011, 01:15:46 PM
-
I remind everyone to be respectful, or you will be banned.
=======================
https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=163477&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blabbermouth+%28Blabbermouth.net%27s+Daily+Headlines%29
According to Courthouse News Service, ex-DREAM THEATER drummer Mike Portnoy filed a lawsuit against his former bandmates in April claiming that they "wrongfully excluded" him from the group and are "wrongfully using the name of the band in connection with [their] recording of an album without the participation or consent of [Portnoy]." In addition, the drummer's complaint, which was filed on April 27, alleges that the defendants — John Petrucci (guitar), John Myung (bass), Jordan Rudess (keyboards), James LaBrie (vocals), along with associated companies Ytse Jam, Inc. and Infinity Tours, Inc. — "are wrongfully using the name of the band in connection with the promotion of live performances by the individual defendants, without the participation or consent of [Portnoy]."
In an August 2011 interview with the Greek edition of Rock Hard magazine, Portnoy stated about his departure from DREAM THEATER, "I didn't make the decision to leave DREAM THEATER before [hooking up with] AVENGED SEVENFOLD [as their touring drummer], but I knew that something had to change in the DREAM THEATER camp. It's unfortunate that it was me that had to change, because I never wanted to leave the band — it was never my intention; I never wanted the split. I just merely thought that the band really could use a break, because I think the romance was really dying — backstage and between [the members] personally. 25 years without a break is a very, very, very long time and sometimes these relationships need a break from each other to rekindle the flame. So that's all I suggested. And even before I [went on the road] with AVENGED SEVENFOLD, I remember touring with [the progressive rock project] TRANSATLANTIC at the beginning of 2010 and already knowing that something was wrong in the DREAM THEATER world and that I really needed a break from the guys and the whole DREAM THEATER machine. I knew something was brewing and I knew that I was unhappy, and as has been well documented elsewhere, I merely just wanted a break. But unfortunately, those guys [the rest of DREAM THEATER] didn't see it that way and didn't respect my request for time off. It's unfortunate [that it turned out that way]."
Portnoy, who co-founded DREAM THEATER more than 20 years ago, announced his departure from the band in September 2010 while on tour with AVENGED SEVENFOLD. He has since been replaced by Mike Mangini (ANNIHILATOR, EXTREME, JAMES LABRIE, STEVE VAI).
Portnoy played on AVENGED SEVENFOLD's latest album, "Nightmare", following the death of that band's drummer, Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan, and toured with them for the entire second half of 2010.
DREAM THEATER's new album, "A Dramatic Turn Of Events", was released on September 13 via Roadrunner Records.
-
DAMMIT MP
Before anyone asks, no I'm not defending him this time. Definitely a stupid, and very disappointing, thing to do. :facepalm:
-
Okay William Shatner, thanks for the extra, commas. :p
-
I think that explains the lack of contact by the other members of DT and pretty much means there's no chance he's ever coming back. This is a real bummer. I'm surprised this didn't come out earlier since it happened back in April.
-
Oh boy. If I had any ounce of respect for him prior to this, I probably lost it now.
It's really sad that MP goes to these lengths.
-
Just when I thought he was regaining his dignity with that latest interview a bit, this comes up...
-
Sad to see it escalate this far. Thought better of MP, but seeing as it is in writing/confirmed then I can't defend him anymore.
-
not a surprise at all..sad though
-
I guess whoever said sometime ago there were legal issues about DT and Portnoy was right? This can take a turn for the wrong, though.
There goes the rest of my respect.
-
and everything seems to come into focus...all at once
-
:(
MP...what happened?.... :'(
-
Just when I thought he was regaining his dignity with that latest interview a bit, this comes up...
My thoughts exactly.
-
Mangini is looking better and better
-
Wow, his chances for a reunion just keep getting smaller and smaller. This is a lawsuit he can't possibly win, but you can always try. I'm sure his lawyer is more than happy to take his money.
-
I really hope this doesn't affect their touring. I guess it hasn't since the suit was launched in April apparently?
-
Anyone know if there's any precident of a band member suing like this and winning?
-
Mike Portnoy QUIT Dream Theater. He is COMPLETELY in the wrong here.
My respect for MP just went through the fucking floor. Pathetic.
-
He filed it on my birthday! Yay! :-)
...
ehhh. :-(
-
Well, it looks like any chance of a reunion show is completely lost.
-
DAMMIT MP
Before anyone asks, no I'm not defending him this time. Definitely a stupid, and very disappointing, thing to do. :facepalm:
You know it's bad when Ariich has blatantly negative things to say.
-
i will always respect what he did for DT..he is an amazing musician..but i think he needs an attitude and reality check.
-
If you search for MP on the courthouse website there is a PDF of the summons.
This is crazy.
Chris
-
I think that explains the lack of contact by the other members of DT and pretty much means there's no chance he's ever coming back. This is a real bummer. I'm surprised this didn't come out earlier since it happened back in April.
These were my exact thoughts (GET OUT OF MY BRAIN).
I do honestly believe that he is a much better emotional and mental place now. His last couple of interviews have sounded much more respectful about the band's decision, and he seems a lot more down to earth now. But it's very disappointing to read that back in April (which, if I remember rightly, was around the time he was really at his lowest/bitchiest) he went to such lengths. :(
But yeah, it also explains why the DT members haven't really been in touch with him. I hope they can all move on eventually and reconcile.
-
Mike Portnoy QUIT Dream Theater. He is COMPLETELY in the wrong here.
My respect for MP just went through the fucking floor. Pathetic.
Even though you're a Buckeyes fan, you have earned my respect with this post.
-
Directed by M. Night Shamylongadong... DT has been biting their tongues on this one, probably due to court order. All the while MP is parading around saying that if it must be like this then he will respect the bands wishes and blah blah... Seriously man? How two faced is that?
-
I really hope this doesn't affect their touring. I guess it hasn't since the suit was launched in April apparently?
This is going to take a while to work its way through the court system. I am sure the guys in DT have their own lawyers who have opinions on the merits of MP's lawsuit and if there was an expectation that Portnoy could win, you would have seen the band working under a different band name.
This all remiinds me of Waters suing Gilmour over the use of the Pink Floyd name, and we all know how that turned out (though I don't know what the contract legalities are between MP and DT).
-
Just when I thought he was regaining his dignity with that latest interview a bit, this comes up...
-
Anyone know if there's any precident of a band member suing like this and winning?
I really hope this doesn't affect their touring. I guess it hasn't since the suit was launched in April apparently?
Wow, his chances for a reunion just keep getting smaller and smaller. This is a lawsuit he can't possibly win, but you can always try. I'm sure his lawyer is more than happy to take his money.
Guys, this happened back in April, so I'm pretty sure he was unsuccessful.
-
He wanted the rights to the name:
The relief sought is:
l. A judicial declarahon that defendants may not use the name of the Band
(including in connecnon with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintiff s consent;
2. An injunction restraining defendants from using the name of the Band
(including in connection with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintifF s consent; and
3. An awatd of damages in an amount to be determined at trial.
Upon your failure to timely appear, judgment will be taken against you by
default for the declaratory and injunctive relief sought herein, an amount of damages to be
determined (together with interest thereon), and the costs and disbursements of this action.
-
Disgusting :tdwn You'd think he hadn't quit.
I'm guessing this is about Portnoy trying to secure a portion of the earnings going forward (I think it is reasonably common for bands to continue paying out to previous members, particularly when they've been quite significant up to that point) and there's a disconnect between how much the band thinks he should get and how much Portnoy thinks he should get, hence the lawsuit.
-
Guys, this happened back in April, so I'm pretty sure he was unsuccessful.
These things can take some time to make it through the courts or mediation or settleing or however the end up getting closed out.
-
He wanted the rights to the name:
The relief sought is:
l. A judicial declarahon that defendants may not use the name of the Band
(including in connecnon with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintiff s consent;
2. An injunction restraining defendants from using the name of the Band
(including in connection with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintifF s consent; and
3. An awatd of damages in an amount to be determined at trial.
Upon your failure to timely appear, judgment will be taken against you by
default for the declaratory and injunctive relief sought herein, an amount of damages to be
determined (together with interest thereon), and the costs and disbursements of this action.
Cut and paste didn't like the PDF scan, so that's why there are typo's.
-
Not surprising, but sad.
Someone should remind him that he left the band. They didn't kick him out.
-
Hey. Remember back when people assumed this was going to happen/was happening and they got shot down for saying that? Yeah. People were like, "MP quit DT to join A7X!" and "MP is probably suing DT about the band name!" And everyone was like, "You're crazy. Stop jumping to conclusions. You're dumb."
And look where we are now.
-
Directed by M. Night Shamylongadong... DT has been biting their tongues on this one, probably due to court order. All the while MP is parading around saying that if it must be like this then he will respect the bands wishes and blah blah... Seriously man? How two faced is that?
Doubt if there's a court order not to talk,however your lawyer will always advise no direct contact or public comment during a lawsuit because anything you say could turn out to be a big mistake. I could be wrong though.
-
Shit, it has their addresses on it.
-
I'm guessing this is about Portnoy trying to secure a portion of the earnings going forward (I think it is reasonably common for bands to continue paying out to previous members, particularly when they've been quite significant up to that point) and there's a disconnect between how much the band thinks he should get and how much Portnoy thinks he should get, hence the lawsuit.
Yeah this exactly, MP left the band and I can't imagine he would have wanted to stop them using the band's name (hence the "without plaintiff's consent" bit) but it sounds like he probably wanted money for them doing so. Which I agree is pretty low, but does actually tie in with what JP and JR had implied in that interview a few weeks back.
Guys, this happened back in April, so I'm pretty sure he was unsuccessful.
These things can take some time to make it through the courts or mediation or settleing or however the end up getting closed out.
True, I'll admit I don't know how long these things take in the US civil courts.
-
Well, that's disappointing.
-
I know its back from April, but I had to lol at this. There's really no getting around the fact that when boiled down, he quit a band and then sued them for his lack of participation. That just...wow :lol
-
Nick you beat me by a couple of seconds on the post. I must say im really not surprised. what i am surprised about is that it took this long to find out about it.. seems kinda a coincidence that this was discovered just after MPs latest statements
-
Coming from someone who doesn't have a legal background at all here, but doesn't the fact that he quit the band automatically make his argument about the name to be worthless?
-
lol Mike Portnoy.
-
Coming from someone who doesn't have a legal background at all here, but doesn't the fact that he quit the band automatically make his argument about the name to be worthless?
I'm sure legally he's still a part owner of Ytse Jams, Inc and thus DT. Perhaps he's going to argue that without his permission DT cannot record or tour under that name. But yes, I don't think he has much to stand on since he quit.
-
Sadly, I'm not surprised, MP has been anything but professional and gracious throughout this whole ordeal, an ordeal which he brought upon himself and DT.
I no longer care for or even give a shit about MP.
-
He wanted the rights to the name:
The relief sought is:
l. A judicial declarahon that defendants may not use the name of the Band
(including in connecnon with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintiff s consent;
2. An injunction restraining defendants from using the name of the Band
(including in connection with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintifF s consent; and
3. An awatd of damages in an amount to be determined at trial.
Upon your failure to timely appear, judgment will be taken against you by
default for the declaratory and injunctive relief sought herein, an amount of damages to be
determined (together with interest thereon), and the costs and disbursements of this action.
Cut and paste didn't like the PDF scan, so that's why there are typo's.
I guess you can print this out and keep it as an MP souvenier. Really sad. Since Mp always uses the marriage analogy I'd say it's like cheating on your wife, leaving her, and then sueing her for the right to live in the house and take a portion of all the posessions. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine how that would fly in court unless there are some previous agreements being broken but it's not likely. If there were, they'd be referenced in the above document.
-
I remind everyone to be respectful, or you will be banned.
Yeah, good luck with that one.
And MP has nothing here. He quit. He was not fired. By quitting, he lost any right to the band, which belong to the band. It's a huge shame this turned out to be mostly right.
The fact DT released a new album without skipping a beat tells me this lawsuit isn't going to get anywhere.
-
Hey. Remember back when people assumed this was going to happen/was happening and they got shot down for saying that? Yeah. People were like, "MP quit DT to join A7X!" and "MP is probably suing DT about the band name!" And everyone was like, "You're crazy. Stop jumping to conclusions. You're dumb."
And look where we are now.
I don't recall anyone ever saying "you're dumb" or "you're crazy". We did say "don't jump to conclusions" and we were absolutely right to do so. There was no evidence of any legal action until JR and JP mentioned it in that interview, and even then there was no evidence of a lawsuit. After that interview, this news isn't hugely surprising (although it is hugely disappointing), but there was no certainty of it back then.
I remind everyone to be respectful, or you will be banned.
Yeah, good luck with that one.
You say that, but so far everyone has been very respectful with their posts, which is great as it's what we've been trying to get people to do for AGES. Nothing wrong with being critical, just be respectful. :)
-
Wait....HE QUIT the band! If he chose to leave, regardless of who he blames for his reason to leave, then he made a choice to forfeit his stake in the group.
Sounds like he wants to be paid for the name. DT should tell him to shove the name up his arse and call his bluff.
I will not spend another dollar on a Portnoy project. Sucks too, I am a huge Sykes fan and I was really looking forward to hearing it. This dude must be living on planet BS, in the galaxy of TSCD!
-
Huh, I thought everyone already knew for months that MP was suing over the DT name.
This reminds me of Yes in the 80's, with the split into ABWH.
-
Looks like he really is trying to be like Roger Waters. Waters left Floyd in the mid 80s, and then was royally pissed when they went on without him, so he sued them to stop them from using the name...and lost. And so will Portnoy (if he hasn't already).
-
When i think about it, i always ask myself: did he really need to do this?. And what for?.
Since from a merely legal point of view, as far as i know there's no way he will win this lawsuit.
And, even i feel sad saying this, to know what happened in April it put in a total, and hypocritical, different prospective what he has said in these last weeks.
-
Hey. Remember back when people assumed this was going to happen/was happening and they got shot down for saying that? Yeah. People were like, "MP quit DT to join A7X!" and "MP is probably suing DT about the band name!" And everyone was like, "You're crazy. Stop jumping to conclusions. You're dumb."
And look where we are now.
I don't recall anyone ever saying "your dumb" or "you're crazy". We did say "don't jump to conclusions" and we were absolutely right to do so. There was no evidence of any legal action until JR and JP mentioned it in that interview, and even then there was no evidence of a lawsuit. After that interview, this news isn't hugely surprising (although it is hugely disappointing), but there was no certainty of it back then.
I'm not saying it was wrong to say that they were jumping to conclusions. It's just really funny how all those jumpy people were completely right. :lol
I mean I find it funny. It's funny, right?
-
Looks like he really is trying to be like Roger Waters. Waters left Floyd in the mid 80s, and then was royally pissed when they went on without him, so he sued them to stop them from using the name...and lost. And so will Portnoy (if he hasn't already).
Yeah, probably what will happen is MP will get some settlement $$.
Really guys, this is all pro forma stuff, happens all the time, nothing to get excited about.
-
Shit, it has their addresses on it.
QUICK
STALK THE DT MEMBERS
:neverusethis:
-
Wait....HE QUIT the band! If he chose to leave, regardless of who he blames for his reason to leave, then he made a choice to forfeit his stake in the group.
Sounds like he wants to be paid for the name. DT should tell him to shove the name up his arse and call his bluff.
I will not spend another dollar on a Portnoy project. Sucks too, I am a huge Sykes fan and I was really looking forward to hearing it. This dude must be living on planet BS, in the galaxy of TSCD!
He could always use the defense that he quit the band because he was mentally exhausted and they wouldn't let him have time off. Just like with work, it's not legal to fire someone that has a reasonable illness foir not working. However, if you make that claim and have 4-5 part time jobs you're still working (like Portnoy) then that arguement goes right out the window.
-
Wait a minute... That pdf file that chris linked shows that it is from the New York Supreme Court. Wouldn't it actually have to be elevated to the Supreme Court first? Like I would just think that something of this nature would be filed in a civil court first.
-
Hey. Remember back when people assumed this was going to happen/was happening and they got shot down for saying that? Yeah. People were like, "MP quit DT to join A7X!" and "MP is probably suing DT about the band name!" And everyone was like, "You're crazy. Stop jumping to conclusions. You're dumb."
And look where we are now.
I don't recall anyone ever saying "you're dumb" or "you're crazy". We did say "don't jump to conclusions" and we were absolutely right to do so. There was no evidence of any legal action until JR and JP mentioned it in that interview, and even then there was no evidence of a lawsuit. After that interview, this news isn't hugely surprising (although it is hugely disappointing), but there was no certainty of it back then.
As usual, I agree with you. Now we actually have some facts, rather than leaps based on speculation.
With how long ago this was, for all we know it's sorted, or went nowhere, or whatever. Not sure we'll ever find out what came/comes of it though.
-
I just lost what little respect I had left for Mike Portnoy. He's shown himself to be a duplicitous, conniving backstabber. Had he been forced out of the band I would probably not feel as strongly about this, but HE fucking quit the band, not the other way around.
He's certainly entitled to his fair share of profits on all of the sales of recordings that he was involved with, but from the moment he quit, he ain't entitled to shit.
Hey wait.....I have the catch phrase for this:
"From the moment he quit, he ain't entitled to shit"
:P
-
Coming from someone who doesn't have a legal background at all here, but doesn't the fact that he quit the band automatically make his argument about the name to be worthless?
There will have been various legal agreements that Portnoy was involved in as part of the band that will have had to be disentangled before he was technically no longer part of the band.
I think from past interviews they've given that essentially the five members of the band are the significant shareholders in the Dream Theater rights and pay out dividends to themselves at the end of the year and the rest of the time they pay themselves a pittance. I think this is the way it works and it means they can get a lower rate of tax than if they were just paying themselves a set wage (someone with better understanding/knowledge of US business will know more than I).
Admittedly this is all speculation, but when it comes down to the brass tacks of extricating Portnoy from the business dealings there will be a certain claim he can attach to future earnings based on having helped build up the Dream Theater brand for so many years.
I suspect if he were touring with A7X right now and making decent money that the lawsuit might not have happened, but since he's now looking at a big hole in his earnings he's going to use the courts to arbitrate how significant his involvement was up to this point and try and get himself a bigger slice of the future pie than DT are willing to hand over.
I don't think it's actually that rare a thing to do and there are more absurd lawsuits that have been floating around (e.g. David Ellefson vs. Dave Mustaine, suing him for $17M wasn't it?). I believe from what was said of the Alex Lifeson court case a few years ago that lawyers will advise their clients to sling as much against the wall as they can to see what sticks.
-
Shit, it has their addresses on it.
Not gonna lie, I just google mapsed JP's modestly huge house. I feel a bit stalkerish for this and am not proud of myself whatsoever. :|
-
Funny how he quotes the PF Waters/Gilmour split in his last blabber,
We all know how that worked out for Waters.... :facepalm:
-
Hey. Remember back when people assumed this was going to happen/was happening and they got shot down for saying that? Yeah. People were like, "MP quit DT to join A7X!" and "MP is probably suing DT about the band name!" And everyone was like, "You're crazy. Stop jumping to conclusions. You're dumb."
And look where we are now.
I don't recall anyone ever saying "your dumb" or "you're crazy". We did say "don't jump to conclusions" and we were absolutely right to do so. There was no evidence of any legal action until JR and JP mentioned it in that interview, and even then there was no evidence of a lawsuit. After that interview, this news isn't hugely surprising (although it is hugely disappointing), but there was no certainty of it back then.
I'm not saying it was wrong to say that they were jumping to conclusions. It's just really funny how all those jumpy people were completely right. :lol
I mean I find it funny. It's funny, right?
Ah ok, yeah it definitely is quite amusing, which helps to combat the disappointment I suppose. :lol
-
Shit, it has their addresses on it.
Oh if only I lived nearby... But no, I'm stuck across the pond.
Since Mp always uses the marriage analogy I'd say it's like cheating on your wife, leaving her, and then sueing her for the right to live in the house and take a portion of all the posessions.
Yeah, but it's usually the wife who does that, and not the husband... >_>
DON'T SHOOT ME PLEASE
-
Wait a minute... That pdf file that chris linked shows that it is from the New York Supreme Court. Wouldn't it actually have to be elevated to the Supreme Court first? Like I would just think that something of this nature would be filed in a civil court first.
No. New York just has weird names for their courts.
-
Shit, it has their addresses on it.
QUICK
STALK THE DT MEMBERS
:neverusethis:
See you in PA?
-
It's like people assumed the worst, and it's really sad to find that MP is proving them all right.
-
Wait....HE QUIT the band! If he chose to leave, regardless of who he blames for his reason to leave, then he made a choice to forfeit his stake in the group.
Sounds like he wants to be paid for the name. DT should tell him to shove the name up his arse and call his bluff.
I will not spend another dollar on a Portnoy project. Sucks too, I am a huge Sykes fan and I was really looking forward to hearing it. This dude must be living on planet BS, in the galaxy of TSCD!
He could always use the defense that he quit the band because he was mentally exhausted and they wouldn't let him have time off. Just like with work, it's not legal to fire someone that has a reasonable illness foir not working. However, if you make that claim and have 4-5 part time jobs you're still working (like Portnoy) then that arguement goes right out the window.
I could see this point, except for the fact he QUIT and wasn't fired as the analogy you used suggests.
-
I will forever love MP's drumming, but after reading this I can't see myself having any respect for him on any other level. It's a shame because I used to have more respect for MP than any other musician.
-
lolnoy
this is totally gonna bring those fans back that MP claimed turned their back on him
-
Although I have no proof, it's amazingly coincidental that every few days some juicy bit of gossip surfaces. Just enough to keep things a bit off balance for the band. Almost like it's to try to hurt them. Just whaen the dust settles, it's stirred up again. Almost as if on purpose. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but this is just too strange.
-
Once again rumors prove to be true. And he complains that JP won't talk to him?
Are we still supposed to give him the benefit of the doubt now when he is literally the enemy?
-
Don't really know what to say. I've learned holding my words until all the info is out is the best course of action.
But all in all it's a tough day to be a long time DT fan and possibly a day where sides will have to be chosen...which I
figured would eventually happen but hoped it never would. Total bummer.
-
Although I have no proof, it's amazingly coincidental that every few days some juicy bit of gossip surfaces. Just enough to keep things a bit off balance for the band. Almost like it's to try to hurt them. Just whaen the dust settles, it's stirred up again. Almost as if on purpose. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but this is just too strange.
Only flaw with that is that most of these news snippets hurt Portnoy's reputation and do nothing to the band's. There's no way anyone is going to lose respect for the band over this.
-
Shit, it has their addresses on it.
Not gonna lie, I just google mapsed JP's modestly huge house. I feel a bit stalkerish for this and am not proud of myself whatsoever. :|
That's the first thing I thought of doing when I saw their addresses. ;D
-
Just when I thought he was regaining his dignity with that latest interview a bit, this comes up...
My thoughts exactly.
Yep...
Seriously, being the music fan he is, you'd think he'd remember what happened when Roger Waters tried to sue Pink Floyd, and MP wasn't even as responsible for a great deal of the music like Roger Waters was! I can't see this going MP's way.
-
Please don't post the link to the summons or anything else that has their addresses. I know it is out there in the public domain, but I'm not comfortable having it linked to from this site.
-
Shit, it has their addresses on it.
QUICK
STALK THE DT MEMBERS
:neverusethis:
See you in PA?
I only live a couple of miles from Portnoy.
-
Guys, can we heed bosk's comment and stop with the discussions about addresses and creepy stalking? Thanks.
-
Although I have no proof, it's amazingly coincidental that every few days some juicy bit of gossip surfaces. Just enough to keep things a bit off balance for the band. Almost like it's to try to hurt them. Just whaen the dust settles, it's stirred up again. Almost as if on purpose. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but this is just too strange.
Only flaw with that is that most of these news snippets hurt Portnoy's reputation and do nothing to the band's. There's no way anyone is going to lose respect for the band over this.
It's not a flaw if you seek attention at any cost. Self destructive behavior knows no bounds.
EDIT: I agree. The band sure looks like the victims to me although you'd never know it by the way they carry themselves.
-
He's just pathetic. He's a 44 grown man acting as a child against people he knew for 25 years, when he's the reason of the split. The little respect I had for him has gone away.
-
Although I have no proof, it's amazingly coincidental that every few days some juicy bit of gossip surfaces. Just enough to keep things a bit off balance for the band. Almost like it's to try to hurt them. Just whaen the dust settles, it's stirred up again. Almost as if on purpose. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but this is just too strange.
Only flaw with that is that most of these news snippets hurt Portnoy's reputation and do nothing to the band's. There's no way anyone is going to lose respect for the band over this.
It's not a flaw if you seek attention at any cost. Self destructive behavior knows no bounds.
Well, in this case it was the court news service who released the news, I think insinuating that MP released the info is conspiracy theory levels of paranoia. :lol
Besides, this is the worst timing for him. In recent interviews he's really come across as moving on (somewhat) and being more down to earth about the whole thing. This news coming out right now is only going to hurt the reputation that he was slowly starting to get back.
-
He's just pathetic. He's a 44 grown man acting as a child against people he knew for 25 years, when he's the reason of the split. The little respect I had for him has gone away.
Please read the OP again. Keep things respectful. If you can't be respectful, you will be banned. This is your warning.
-
Well if you do a search with the New York State Supreme Court you can pull up this case. However, there is no follow up currently on file, just the summons notice. So it looks like there might be good reason to believe the case went nowhere or is still in some form of mediation. At least the document linked earlier is the only public document on the case.
Perhaps someone with better search-fu than I (or access to legal databases) might see if there is more out there to find.
-
Good thing that "you shouldn't pay attention to everything you read on the internet..."
Also, great thing that "They've moved on....so have I...."
-
Although I have no proof, it's amazingly coincidental that every few days some juicy bit of gossip surfaces. Just enough to keep things a bit off balance for the band. Almost like it's to try to hurt them. Just whaen the dust settles, it's stirred up again. Almost as if on purpose. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but this is just too strange.
Only flaw with that is that most of these news snippets hurt Portnoy's reputation and do nothing to the band's. There's no way anyone is going to lose respect for the band over this.
It's not a flaw if you seek attention at any cost. Self destructive behavior knows no bounds.
Well, in this case it was the court news service who released the news, I think insinuating that MP released the info is conspiracy theory levels of paranoia. :lol
Besides, this is the worst timing for him. In recent interviews he's really come across as moving on (somewhat) and being more down to earth about the whole thing. This news coming out right now is only going to hurt the reputation that he was slowly starting to get back.
Well, he filed back in April, so a lot has happened since then. Who knows what has happened since then? Since the band released the album and is touring, he obviously wasn't able to get a preliminary injunction (which is about what I would have expected the result to be). But in the mean time, he may have dropped the suit, settled, whatever. There's no way of knowing at the time being (the N.Y.S.C.'s online docket has been acting screwy for awhile now, so can't tell if there are other documents on file from any of the parties).
-
I remind everyone to be respectful, or you will be banned.
Well... In that case, my hands are tied...
-
search-fu
I have never heard this phrase, but I love it and am going to use it every chance I get. :lol
-
I remind everyone to be respectful, or you will be banned.
Well... In that case, my hands are tied...
Under the circumstances, I am willing to allow a little more flexibility in this rule for the time being. :lol
-
BTW, can we assume that in cases like this, Roadrunner becomes a huge part of the suit, to protect a band that is under contract with them and one they presumably make a lot of money off of?
-
search-fu
I have never heard this phrase, but I love it and am going to use it every chance I get. :lol
Not sure where I first heard it, but it has become part of my lexicon
-
Now can I say my respect has been lost?
-
Besides, this is the worst timing for him. In recent interviews he's really come across as moving on (somewhat) and being more down to earth about the whole thing. This news coming out right now is only going to hurt the reputation that he was slowly starting to get back.
Well, he filed back in April, so a lot has happened since then. Who knows what has happened since then? Since the band released the album and is touring, he obviously wasn't able to get a preliminary injunction (which is about what I would have expected the result to be). But in the mean time, he may have dropped the suit, settled, whatever. There's no way of knowing at the time being (the N.Y.S.C.'s online docket has been acting screwy for awhile now, so can't tell if there are other documents on file from any of the parties).
Yeah exactly. If there's no follow up posted on the court's site, and as you say there was very obviously no preliminary injunction, it's entirely possible that the matter was settled or abandoned. But I guess we can't really say anything for certain right now other than the fact that it was filed in the first place.
-
Right.
-
My strictly amateur opinion is that his quitting the band doesn't really play a big part of it. He still owned a chunk of the enterprise, and they are currently capitalizing on the name they've established. Furthermore, I suspect that he was just looking for an amicable settlement, anyway. I suspect that he just wanted to have his right to his share of the DT endeavor formally set.
And I don't recall PF actually winning any lawsuits. They reached an agreement after a decade or so of bickering.
-
I had defended him a lot in the past, before and after he left, sometimes probably I could be accused of fanboyism. I disliked his comment about the ADTOE -> I&W "similarities" but it pretty much went away after I read the most recent interview.
However, this is so low that this has completely destroyed all my respect for him, and not so long ago I wouldn't believe he's capable of doing this.
MP, you lost a dedicated fan. I was kinda torn earlier and wasn't sure which side to take. However, now I'm entirely on the band's side. Mistakes in what you say are one thing, doing something like this is entirely another.
That's all.
-
El barto, that thing reads like he wanted to stop them from using the Dream Theater name. If it was just for securing monies for royalties and whatnot (like if they disagreed on how much he should get), that would be one thing, but this is another.
Also, Floyd didn't win a lawsuit per se, but Waters attempt to stop them from using the Pink Floyd name failed miserably.
-
As a law student, this is pretty interesting.
Otherwise, it's just sad.
-
Now can I say my respect has been lost?
and i thought he'd gained some back with that interview... *sigh*
da fuq MP. :/
-
Way to go MP. You continue to show class.
-
"The guys won't talk to me, I have to talk to their lawyer...."
-
Way to go MP. You continue to show class.
-
El barto, that thing reads like he wanted to stop them from using the Dream Theater name. If it was just for securing monies for royalties and whatnot (like if they disagreed on how much he should get), that would be one thing, but this is another.
I dunno, that was my very first thought, but then it does seem like it would be a stupid thing to do, plus the "without plaintiff's consent" wording made me think it's more likely about the money. Also the stuff that JR and JP were saying made it seem that way as well. Or at least that was my interpretation of it at the time.
Hard to say though, and whichever way round it is, it was a low move.
-
Way to go MP. You continue to show class.
-
So let me get this straight......all of this because MP's father came up with the band name? So he thinks he owns it???
-
:wtf:
Shouldn't have all of that been settled when he decided to quit? I mean, you don't just quit a band and go separate ways without getting some legal issues out of the way.
What is going on? I haven't been able to wrap my head around this for a year and now this.
-
"The guys won't talk to me, I have to talk to their lawyer...."
:lol
-
Oh dear, Portnoy...
I don't know what will come out of it (assuming that the lawsuit is still going on), but filing this lawsuit alone is very, very sad.
-
He's just pathetic. He's a 44 grown man acting as a child against people he knew for 25 years, when he's the reason of the split. The little respect I had for him has gone away.
+1
-
well, I'm still a fan of Mike Portnoy the musician, but goddamn Mike Portnoy the person has lost all of my respect.
-
How can he expect to eventually get back with DT, or even play with the guys again on some sort of reunion tour if he did this? What did he expect to do if he won in court anyway?
I would say that they could use the name "Nightmare Cinema" if they somehow lost the rights, but DS would probably file a lawsuit.
-
El barto, that thing reads like he wanted to stop them from using the Dream Theater name. If it was just for securing monies for royalties and whatnot (like if they disagreed on how much he should get), that would be one thing, but this is another.
I dunno, that was my very first thought, but then it does seem like it would be a stupid thing to do, plus the "without plaintiff's consent" wording made me think it's more likely about the money. Also the stuff that JR and JP were saying made it seem that way as well. Or at least that was my interpretation of it at the time.
Hard to say though, and whichever way round it is, it was a low move.
Keep in mind that a lawyer prepared the paperwork, not MP. The way the document is styled may have no resemblance to what Portnoy is actually after, but may have been styled that way by the lawyer just as leverage to achieve some other goal (for example, to leverage a cash payout). We just don't know.
How can he expect to eventually get back with DT, or even play with the guys again on some sort of reunion tour if he did this? What did he expect to do if he won in court anyway?
He may not even think he has a serious chance of winning. See my comment above.
-
The man needs a drink.
-
The man needs a drink.
Hahahahahaha yes.
-
What a dramatic turn of events.
:neverusethis:
-
The man needs to be fired from AM for being too press release happy.
FTFY :tup
-
He's just pathetic. He's a 44 grown man acting as a child against people he knew for 25 years, when he's the reason of the split. The little respect I had for him has gone away.
+1
I already warned him for that post, why on earth would you +1 it?!
Keep in mind that a lawyer prepared the paperwork, not MP. The way the document is styled may have no resemblance to what Portnoy is actually after, but may have been styled that way by the lawyer just as leverage to achieve some other goal (for example, to leverage a cash payout). We just don't know.
Very good point. Can you tell I'm not a lawyer? :lol
-
"The guys won't talk to me, I have to talk to their lawyer...."
Yeah, that's hillarious knowing what we know now. Some of the statements in the claim are just :huh:
Have wrongfully excluded plaintiff from the Band
Clearly, even thought he quit (and he still has it listed at his website (https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2585154.aspx - "After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater"), this wording suggests he's trying to say he was coerced to quit.
Are wrongfully using the name of the Band in connection with the individual defendants' recording of an album, without the participation or consent of plaintiff;
WTF? He's trying to say they can't record an album using Dream Theater's name without him participating or saying it's ok to do so. Ok, whatever.
However, let's put it in perspective folks... this is just *surfacing* now, but actually happened 5 months ago. Let's take his actual statements in last few months as the person that he is. I can't say I've lost any more respect for him, just very confused and annoyed at the way he portray's himself (or perhaps the way the interwebz media portrays him).
I'm also annoyed that we may never hear TBOT or the AA Saga live. I was always holding out hope for some kind of reunion for that. Now, the likelihood seems very dim.
-
In addition, the drummer's complaint, which was filed on April 27, alleges that the defendants — John Petrucci (guitar), John Myung (bass), Jordan Rudess (keyboards), James LaBrie (vocals), along with associated companies Ytse Jam, Inc. and Infinity Tours, Inc. — "are wrongfully using the name of the band in connection with the promotion of live performances by the individual defendants, without the participation or consent of [Portnoy]."
My neutrality with MP is over. No more excuses to tell myself of how he behaves.
Defendants? Petrucci gets called a defendant? Myung, LaBrie? Jordan fuckin Rudess gets called a defendant? This beautiful being? This label has been put for a second of time on these kind, classy, creative, hard working artists?
And why? because they wouldn't stop creating and playing the music they love to the fans that adore them? Portnoy doesn't deserve to be in the band with them. Hell he doesn't deserve to co-exist with them.
MP can sink so low? How fast did he throw everything he felt and learnt in the 12 step program? or was everything in the songs bull shit?
There's a saying in my language about how betraying people you sat down the dinner table and ate with is only in the capacity of the lowest.
And then Nick you ask us for respect? for who? people here almost get banned for suggesting JP stole a lyrical idea from a book! This guy is basically calling Dream Theater a bunch of crooks.
I thought the legal action thing was and would always be a joke. This is a complete shock and a massive disappointment. Sad panda ain't sad enough.
-
Now can I say my respect has been lost?
Only if you do it respectfully.
-
In addition, the drummer's complaint, which was filed on April 27, alleges that the defendants — John Petrucci (guitar), John Myung (bass), Jordan Rudess (keyboards), James LaBrie (vocals), along with associated companies Ytse Jam, Inc. and Infinity Tours, Inc. — "are wrongfully using the name of the band in connection with the promotion of live performances by the individual defendants, without the participation or consent of [Portnoy]."
My neutrality with MP is over. No more excuses to tell myself of how he behaves.
Defendants? Petrucci gets called a defendant? Myung, LaBrie? Jordan fuckin Rudess gets called a defendant? This beautiful being? This label has been put for a second of time on these kind, classy, creative, hard working artists?
And why? because they wouldn't stop creating and playing the music they love to the fans that adore them? Portnoy doesn't deserve to be in the band with them. Hell he doesn't deserve to co-exist with them.
MP can sink so low? How fast did he throw everything he felt and learnt in the 12 step program? or was everything in the songs bull shit?
There's a saying in my language about how betraying people you sat down the dinner table and ate with is only in the capacity of the lowest.
And then Nick you ask us for respect? for who? people here almost get banned for suggesting JP stole a lyrical idea from a book! This guy is basically calling Dream Theater a bunch of crooks.
I thought the legal action thing was and would always be a joke. This is a complete shock and a massive disappointment. Sad panda ain't sad enough.
High Five! o/
-
Defendants? Petrucci gets called a defendant? Myung, LaBrie? Jordan fuckin Rudess gets called a defendant? This beautiful being? This label has been put for a second of time on these kind, classy, creative, hard working artists?
And why? because they wouldn't stop creating and playing the music they love to the fans that adore them?
??? Um...no, they're called "defendants" because that is the proper term for parties who are the respondents in a lawsuit filed against them. There's nothing wrong with that term.
-
El barto, that thing reads like he wanted to stop them from using the Dream Theater name. If it was just for securing monies for royalties and whatnot (like if they disagreed on how much he should get), that would be one thing, but this is another.
Also, Floyd didn't win a lawsuit per se, but Waters attempt to stop them from using the Pink Floyd name failed miserably.
Somebody earlier used the expression "throwing a bunch of shit at the wall to see what stuck," and Bosk (though not quite as poetically) suggested the same thing. I doubt he was after money, either. I'm guessing he was just wanting to secure is interest in DT as a matter of principle. I don't think he would have really wanted the injunction, nor a monthly payout for use of the name. Just a formal recognition that it is partially is, and the for his departure took doesn't really effect that.
-
Wow, I'm speechless reading this news. And seeing MP's comments on the I&W/ADToE song structure thing a couple weeks ago, I can't help but think he might be inclined to test the waters and file another lawsuit with regard to that. Why the need to stick it to DT? Most of his fans for future projects are going to be DT fans that followed him to support him. He's alienating his fans with moves like this. Just go quietly like Kevin did and do your thing.
-
If this only serves to cement Mike Mangini's place in the band, then I am fine with it. I just hope an amicable settlement can be reached soon and everyone involved with Dream Theater past and present can move on with their lives. So many sections of ADTOE would not have been the way they are without the current lineup. For that reason alone I like what the future holds for Dream Theater with JP and JR leading the way, James being given the freedom to sing the way he wants to, JM audible, and MM focused on what he can bring to the table as the drummer.
-
Oh god, how disappointing to hear that he actually sued them :facepalm:
Oh well, i don't think there is a chance of him winning the lawsuit anyway.
-
From Wey at MP.com forums
I can no longer be a party to cleaning up these messes. After working for Mike for peanuts and perks for 11 and a half years, Todays revealing by Blabbermouth is pretty much the final straw. I feel that I have been lied to after doing all that I can to keep this site peaceful, free of the bullshit drama and going to bat for MP and defending him to the point where I feel sometimes that I am the most hated person in the Dream Theater community. I can no longer feel that my integrity and morals are not compromised.
Those of you that want or need to get ahold of me, know how to find me. If not, a simple check of Google will provide you with 5 other emails you can use to contact me. I'll check in every now and again, but at this time, my post will probably be removed and my IP address banned.
-
beat me to it...
-
Marriage Analogy time since Portnoy loves them so much.
This is a bit like siding with one parent after a divorce but then finding out your Dad was a control freak who tried to sue for 100% Custody even though you Mum had never done anything wrong in the first place.
:laugh:
-
Wow, I'm speechless reading this news. And seeing MP's comments on the I&W/ADToE song structure thing a couple weeks ago, I can't help but think he might be inclined to test the waters and file another lawsuit with regard to that. Why the need to stick it to DT? Most of his fans for future projects are going to be DT fans that followed him to support him. He's alienating his fans with moves like this. Just go quietly like Kevin did and do your thing.
I would imagine he probably regrets even trying this now. It happened at a time when, I imagine, he was at his lowest emotionally. I'd be very interested to read his comments on it though, to see what he says about it now.
-
From Wey at MP.com forums
I can no longer be a party to cleaning up these messes. After working for Mike for peanuts and perks for 11 and a half years, Todays revealing by Blabbermouth is pretty much the final straw. I feel that I have been lied to after doing all that I can to keep this site peaceful, free of the bullshit drama and going to bat for MP and defending him to the point where I feel sometimes that I am the most hated person in the Dream Theater community. I can no longer feel that my integrity and morals are not compromised.
Those of you that want or need to get ahold of me, know how to find me. If not, a simple check of Google will provide you with 5 other emails you can use to contact me. I'll check in every now and again, but at this time, my post will probably be removed and my IP address banned.
Wow. Even Weymolith has finally seen the light. :tup :tup
-
Also, does everyone realize that this lawsuit was filed right around the time that the documentary shorts announcing Mike Mangini as the new drummer were being shown?
-
From Wey at MP.com forums
I can no longer be a party to cleaning up these messes. After working for Mike for peanuts and perks for 11 and a half years, Todays revealing by Blabbermouth is pretty much the final straw. I feel that I have been lied to after doing all that I can to keep this site peaceful, free of the bullshit drama and going to bat for MP and defending him to the point where I feel sometimes that I am the most hated person in the Dream Theater community. I can no longer feel that my integrity and morals are not compromised.
Those of you that want or need to get ahold of me, know how to find me. If not, a simple check of Google will provide you with 5 other emails you can use to contact me. I'll check in every now and again, but at this time, my post will probably be removed and my IP address banned.
Holy fuck. I actually gained a bit of respect for the guy.
-
Well, there goes any possibility that LTE might have another reunion tour or even a new album like I had hoped. Now I'm really gonna be sad listening to the Live in LA stuff. :(
-
Wow, even Wey. This is a real bummer man. He's taking everything down with him.
Well. So be it.
-
I have great respect for mp and will hold judgment until I hear his side but very disappointing news
-
Also, does everyone realize that this lawsuit was filed right around the time that the documentary shorts announcing Mike Mangini as the new drummer were being shown?
I knew that there was something big going on that week. It just slipped my mind.
-
Wey is a really nice guy. A little harsh at times, but the guy went through a TON of shit. I don't know if I agree with how fast he made the decision, but he is also employed by Dream Theater. Can't blame him.
-
Defendants? Petrucci gets called a defendant? Myung, LaBrie? Jordan fuckin Rudess gets called a defendant? This beautiful being? This label has been put for a second of time on these kind, classy, creative, hard working artists?
And why? because they wouldn't stop creating and playing the music they love to the fans that adore them?
??? Um...no, they're called "defendants" because that is the proper term for parties who are the respondents in a lawsuit filed against them. There's nothing wrong with that term.
Forget proper. It's a bad thing to be refereed to as a defendant! Why put someone in this situation? And we're not talking about Dave Mustaine or Ozzy Osborne. These are not the usual been-mugshoted-drunk-driving musicians.
Keep in mind that a lawyer prepared the paperwork, not MP. The way the document is styled may have no resemblance to what Portnoy is actually after, but may have been styled that way by the lawyer just as leverage to achieve some other goal (for example, to leverage a cash payout). We just don't know.
There's no doubt the lawyer prepared the paperwork. Mike only told the lawyer "I want these guys to eat my ass and balls" and the lawyer translated that into the legal document and persuaded MP to leave any mention of his organs out of it.
But in all seriousness; Mike is not doing this for money. This is clear unfiltered spite.
-
Unbelievable, I could never see myself suing friends I knew for 25 years, over something I chose to quit. Did he really think that "oh well if I quit then they will have to disband, then my plan to have a hiatus will work anyway", no he quit because he knew they were going to keep making music and touring. ???
The thing with the Roger Waters/Pink Floyd was they were all incredibly unhappy with each other, namely Roger and the rest of the band. I remember reading that Waters and Gilmour were so unhappy with each other that the Final Cut was written separately and then they would occasionally come together to share what they had written. With the clips of the making of BCSL, they seemed tighter than ever, although obviously this wasn't completely the case.
I was already very happy with Mangini, but in cases like this, his humbleness makes me like him that much more.
-
But in all seriousness; Mike is not doing this for money. This is clear unfiltered spite.
-
Whelp the wheels are falling off of the MP forum. Wey just quit and he wasn't shy about saying why. Too bad, it was a fun ride from 2003 to 2011!
-
From Wey at MP.com forums
I can no longer be a party to cleaning up these messes. After working for Mike for peanuts and perks for 11 and a half years, Todays revealing by Blabbermouth is pretty much the final straw. I feel that I have been lied to after doing all that I can to keep this site peaceful, free of the bullshit drama and going to bat for MP and defending him to the point where I feel sometimes that I am the most hated person in the Dream Theater community. I can no longer feel that my integrity and morals are not compromised.
Those of you that want or need to get ahold of me, know how to find me. If not, a simple check of Google will provide you with 5 other emails you can use to contact me. I'll check in every now and again, but at this time, my post will probably be removed and my IP address banned.
HOLY SHIT
yes.
-
But in all seriousness; Mike is not doing this for money. This is clear unfiltered spite.
Yeah, definitely this. That's the saddest part about this whole thing.
-
Holy shit, what a train wreck. There goes my last bit of respect for MP. :(
-
But in all seriousness; Mike is not doing this for money. This is clear unfiltered spite.
Certainly a possibility, especially given (as someone pointed out) the fact that it happened in April when DT were building up to the reveal of their new drummer. He must have been an absolute wreck at the time. But it may well have been for money - I'm sure there was stuff going around a few weeks ago about him wanting appropriate royalties.
Again, I'd be interested to hear his comments on the matter.
-
Just when I thought he was regaining his dignity with that latest interview a bit, this comes up...
My thoughts exactly.
Edit: WHOLY TAPDANCING BEARD OF PETRUCCI, DID WEYMOLITH ACTUALLY QUIT MP.com?
-
Forget proper. It's a bad thing to be refereed to as a defendant!
No it isn't.
But in all seriousness; Mike is not doing this for money. This is clear unfiltered spite.
You have no idea why he filed it.
-
Again, I'd be interested to hear his comments on the matter.
Why? So he can try to spin it in a way that makes him look like a victim yet again? I don't think there is anything he can say about it that fan make him look less worse than he already does right now.
-
I was already very happy with Mangini, but in cases like this, his humbleness makes me like him that much more.
:tup
-
I'm petrified. This is madness !
First, the reaction about the new album, now this...
This guy was my hero, excentric, full of energy, a master of scene&crowd on gigs and a great musician.
What is this, Mike ? What the hell are you doing ?
I truly respected him and now I feel that I'm losing it. This is unacceptable.
-
I have a feeling that some DTF members will be banned because of this nonsense. :-\
And...
I'm petrified. This is madness !
Madness?
THIS IS DRAMA!
-
Just when I thought he was regaining his dignity with that latest interview a bit, this comes up...
My thoughts exactly.
Edit: WHOLY TAPDANCING BEARD OF PETRUCCI, DID WEYMOLITH ACTUALLY QUIT MP.com?
Really!?
-
Again, I'd be interested to hear his comments on the matter.
Why? So he can try to spin it in a way that makes him look like a victim yet again? I don't think there is anything he can say about it that fan make him look less worse than he already does right now.
Because it might shed some light on his actual intentions for doing it. At the moment all we have is people making assumptions like "he didn't want money, it was just out of spite". Which is absolutely possible, but I'd be interested to hear what he has to say on the matter, because it would be far more relevant than the assumptions of people who dislike him.
-
Forget proper. It's a bad thing to be refereed to as a defendant!
No it isn't.
But in all seriousness; Mike is not doing this for money. This is clear unfiltered spite.
You have no idea why he filed it.
DO NOT dare disrespect Egypt...
-
:( Sorry.
:walklikeanegyptian:
-
Well Wey's thread is now gone from MP.com as is the thread about the lawsuit...oh boy....
-
From Wey at MP.com forums
I can no longer be a party to cleaning up these messes. After working for Mike for peanuts and perks for 11 and a half years, Todays revealing by Blabbermouth is pretty much the final straw. I feel that I have been lied to after doing all that I can to keep this site peaceful, free of the bullshit drama and going to bat for MP and defending him to the point where I feel sometimes that I am the most hated person in the Dream Theater community. I can no longer feel that my integrity and morals are not compromised.
Those of you that want or need to get ahold of me, know how to find me. If not, a simple check of Google will provide you with 5 other emails you can use to contact me. I'll check in every now and again, but at this time, my post will probably be removed and my IP address banned.
HOLY SHIT
yes.
Too bad. Wey's farewell post was just deleted. What a shame... bullshit even.
-
Again, I'd be interested to hear his comments on the matter.
Why? So he can try to spin it in a way that makes him look like a victim yet again? I don't think there is anything he can say about it that fan make him look less worse than he already does right now.
Because it might shed some light on his actual intentions for doing it. At the moment all we have is people making assumptions like "he didn't want money, it was just out of spite". Which is absolutely possible, but I'd be interested to hear what he has to say on the matter, because it would be far more relevant than the assumptions of people who dislike him.
Eh, his spin will reflect on him in the best possible light. It is not like he is gonna come right out and say what his actual intentions were, and his spin will then result in most of us realizing what is obvious, you of course being one of the few who won't since you are the eternal optimist. ;) :lol
-
Again, I'd be interested to hear his comments on the matter.
Why? So he can try to spin it in a way that makes him look like a victim yet again? I don't think there is anything he can say about it that fan make him look less worse than he already does right now.
Because it might shed some light on his actual intentions for doing it. At the moment all we have is people making assumptions like "he didn't want money, it was just out of spite". Which is absolutely possible, but I'd be interested to hear what he has to say on the matter, because it would be far more relevant than the assumptions of people who dislike him.
Particularly since this thing was most likely resolved quite some time ago. I'm of the opinion that he was just looking to secure his name out of principle, and they quickly agreed to a reasonable settlement. That this came out now, long after it was likely resolved is the unfortunate part.
I'm also betting that MP's forum greets us with a big 404 here quite soon, so I'm not sure how much info we get from the man regarding things.
-
Probably more victim garbage.
-
Yep. With the push of a button the threads are history.
And now we wait and see where we go from here. No Mod working there so it would seem like a temp. shutdown might be
MP's only way derail this.
-
Too bad. Wey's farewell post was just deleted. What a shame... bullshit even.
censorship now! such a shame it's come to this.
-
Eh, his spin will reflect on him in the best possible light.
Indeed, and the assumptions of people who dislike him will paint him in the worst possible light. By looking at both you can get a better idea of the underlying reality than just looking at one.
-
How much do you guys think this revelation is going to hurt Portnoy's future projects, especially in the short term?
-
I don't think it is a coincidence either that none of the DT members said anything close to disparaging about Portnoy prior to April, but both JLB and Rudess were quoted in interviews since as saying things that were less than flattering about him (JLB's comment about him stealing the spotlight from the back of the stage, JR saying he was the DT Police, etc.). Makes me think that after the lawsuit was filed, they had had enough of him, and were more receptive to not being completely PC when asked about him.
-
The threads at MP's site were all deleted, including Wey's farewell
-
Why remove the lawsuit thread? A Story from mp.com
Because DT are trying to rewrite history with their new album. (lol)
I think it's time for the MP forum to go on a five year hiatus. Too much personal info being shared.
I love it.
-
Eh, his spin will reflect on him in the best possible light.
Indeed, and the assumptions of people who dislike him will paint him in the worst possible light. By looking at both you can get a better idea of the underlying reality than just looking at one.
That's almost everyone now. :lol
-
How much do you guys think this revelation is going to hurt Portnoy's future projects, especially in the short term?
He's going to lose some fans, that's for sure.
That will also mean The Mob.... losing some fans.
-
I don't think it is a coincidence either that none of the DT members said anything close to disparaging about Portnoy prior to April, but both JLB and Rudess were quoted in interviews since as saying things that were less than flattering about him (JLB's comment about him stealing the spotlight from the back of the stage, JR saying he was the DT Police, etc.). Makes me think that after the lawsuit was filed, they had had enough of him, and were more receptive to not being completely PC when asked about him.
Definitely agreed with this. A lot of things about the timing make a lot of sense now, like what you just pointed out, and the fact that it happened around the time of the big drummer reveal. As disappointing as it is, it's good that we're getting a fuller picture of what has been going on now.
-
Eh, his spin will reflect on him in the best possible light.
Indeed, and the assumptions of people who dislike him will paint him in the worst possible light. By looking at both you can get a better idea of the underlying reality than just looking at one.
That's almost everyone now. :lol
:lol True. But only a few people are making assumptions.
-
How much do you guys think this revelation is going to hurt Portnoy's future projects, especially in the short term?
That will also mean The Mob.... losing some fans.
I'd say much more than some fans. I went to one of the Adrenaline Mob concerts and there were tons of people wearing DT shirts, I wouldn't be surprised if this affects them.
-
Hell, I'm halfway defending him. I think it's a shame the story broke now.
-
oh mike
(https://i.imgur.com/KR0rK.gif)
-
Goddamn regret... :facepalm:
-
That will also mean The Mob.... losing some fans.
Only 58 people will go to their headlining shows now instead of 91.
-
I just "unliked" MP's Facebook page. I'm such a hardass.
-
Comments on MP's Facebook page about this are also disappearing in the last few minutes..
:corn
-
Still I can't abandon the man. Maybe that's a character flaw with me or maybe because there have been
times in my life I have been lower than worm shit and people stayed by my side and kept me from falling over
the edge. It's getting very hard to be one of the few guys who have his back. Very hard. And now Wey is gone
too. Tough day.
-
I just "unliked" MP's Facebook page. I'm such a hardass.
i did that rescently as well. also took down my MP poster. hot damn i'm hard
-
:( Sorry.
:walklikeanegyptian:
Good God this is a priceless smiley :rollin :rollin
-
Still I can't abandon the man. Maybe that's a character flaw with me or maybe because there have been
times in my life I have been lower than worm shit and people stayed by my side and kept me from falling over
the edge. It's getting very hard to be one of the few guys who have his back. Very hard. And now Wey is gone
too. Tough day.
I'm not abandoning him. I still dig his musical output and will continue to follow what he does with excitement. A lot of great musicians have ego or attitude problems and it never detracts from the quality of their music for me. But I am very disappointed with his behaviour.
-
Comments on MP's Facebook page about this are also disappearing in the last few minutes..
:corn
I'm no longer able to post there. :lol :lol
-
Goddamn regret... :facepalm:
i see what you did thar
-
MP is in serious need of some kind of marketing team or something like that. He's seriously damaging his business.
-
Every thread about this on mp.com seems to be disappearing.
As sad as it all is...it's definitely interesting...
-
This is just sad.
-
He is so going to become the the Mustaine.
" HAI GUIZE - REMEMBA WEN I WOZ IN DREAM THEATER ? :|"
-
Why can't I just leave that forum? UGH!
-
Sorry, Cecilia. :( I know how you feel.
-
Why can't I just leave that forum? UGH!
DO IT !!! It might hurt at first, like pulling off a plaster ( band aid ), but you will feel better ;)
-
just got banned from his FB page for 'liking' a comment saying: "Pretty low, man :("
but guys, surely: "these are not MY comments!! " therefore I am just "merely observing"?! :P
-
just got banned from his FB page for 'liking' a comment saying: "Pretty low, man :("
but guys, surely: "these are not MY comments!! " therefore I am just "merely observing"?! :P
:tup I didn't say that !! I merely agree with it 100% but I didn't SAY it !!!
-
That will also mean The Mob.... losing some fans.
Only 58 people will go to their headlining shows now instead of 91.
Still, a strong and deep 58-voice unison chant of "MODAFUCKING PYSCHOSANE" will happen.
-
Why can't I just leave that forum? UGH!
DO IT !!! It might hurt at first, like pulling off a plaster ( band aid ), but you will feel better ;)
I've been posting there since 2002. Hard habit to break :facepalm:
-
This is crazy, really crazy.
-
Why can't I just leave that forum? UGH!
DO IT !!! It might hurt at first, like pulling off a plaster ( band aid ), but you will feel better ;)
I've been posting there since 2002. Hard habit to break :facepalm:
The forum's spirit will guide you each day.
I won't walk awaaaaay
-
srsly. I started posting on that forum when I was 16 years old. I'll be 24 soon.
-
Sad to read but we all know when most bands split it's about royalties and I think this is all about that.
-
Wow, the flaming on the MP forum has reached 3 alarms. Mike's an enemy in his own house.
-
Sooo... Hey guys.
This looks like a nice place, I think I'll be hanging out here instead of... you know... where I just came from.
-
While I'm not shocked at this, I am disappointed. I'll always respect Mikes musical talents, but for now, I will not support him. Hopefully, something will change for the positive in the future.... don't know what would be enough, but hey.... I'm an optimist.
-
Why can't I just leave that forum? UGH!
Right there with you. I know it's all about comfort for me. I feel comfortable 'over there' as opposed to here at the DTF. And it really is nothing against this site or the folk who frequent here....this site actually has so much more to offer. I honestly just haven't put the effort in over here like I have over there so I naturally feel a bit like of an outsider here because that's what I've been.
Even if that place doesn't shut down I think that if WEY did indeed leave....well we've all seen what a 'society' can turn into without a strong rule of law so to speak. It may just get completely unbearable. Either way, I'm going to try and put forth a better effort here at the DTF.
-
I wish Wey good luck. It's interesting to see that he snapped. This could get interesting/ugly.
-
Sooo... Hey guys.
This looks like a nice place, I think I'll be hanging out here instead of... you know... where I just came from.
Welcome to DTF. Don't piss off Bosk1 and I think you'll be ok! :biggrin:
-
just got banned from his FB page for 'liking' a comment saying: "Pretty low, man :("
but guys, surely: "these are not MY comments!! " therefore I am just "merely observing"?! :P
Heh, that was my comment, but I didn't get banned for posting it
It is pretty low though. Bad times.
-
I know this is absolutely horrible for MP and pretty sad, but I can't lie, I have a giant excited smile on my face from all this dramatic drama going on everywhere what with that other forum turning into a riot. :corn It really looks like everything is crashing down. I can't see this ending in anything but a long hiatus from music for MP.
-
I wish Wey good luck. It's interesting to see that he snapped. This could get interesting/ugly.
maybe MP will try to sue him
-
Sooo... Hey guys.
This looks like a nice place, I think I'll be hanging out here instead of... you know... where I just came from.
Welcome to DTF. Don't piss off Bosk1 and I think you'll be ok! :biggrin:
Yeah, take it from me. He's watching me right now. :lol
-
Sooo... Hey guys.
This looks like a nice place, I think I'll be hanging out here instead of... you know... where I just came from.
Hai.
have some womeng, as a welcoming gift.
I wish Wey good luck. It's interesting to see that he snapped. This could get interesting/ugly.
maybe MP will try to sue him
DarkLord_Lalinc likes this.
-
"They all bought into your contrived sincerity
and how you wore your heart and soul right on your sleeve."
Yeah.
-
Oh boy. MP is digging himself an even deeper hole with his forum breaking down.
-
This just turned into the "Discuss how shitty MP.com is" thread.
-
... from all this dramatic drama going on everywhere what with that other forum turning into a riot. :corn It really looks like everything is crashing down.
Sounds like Outcry... :metal
-
... from all this dramatic drama going on everywhere what with that other forum turning into a riot. :corn It really looks like everything is crashing down.
Sounds like Outcry... :metal
Rise up, be counted!
-
I wish Wey good luck. It's interesting to see that he snapped. This could get interesting/ugly.
maybe MP will try to sue him
I have to admit, this post really made me laugh. :lol
-
"They all bought into your contrived sincerity
and how you wore your heart and soul right on your sleeve."
Yeah.
I was thinking the same thing :-\
DT said that Mike wasn't the guy on the unicycle, but if he was, he just fell off.
-
... from all this dramatic drama going on everywhere what with that other forum turning into a riot. :corn It really looks like everything is crashing down.
Sounds like Outcry... :metal
Resistance...is caaaaaalling tonight!!!!!!
-
So yeah, as a law student, without taking sides...
It's not surprising that people here and elsewhere assume they have all the facts just because they've read every interview by every band member or because they've seen every Blabbermouth headline.
Of course I'm tempted to think "well, he chose to leave so this is stupid," but I'm sure it's more complicated than that.
And, of course, bands sue each other all the time for all sorts of reasons and eventually reconcile. Black Sabbath, Floyd, GN'R (Axl, Duff, and Izzy, at least...), anyone? Some do, some don't. Point is, none of this permanently burns any bridges.
Perhaps some interesting facts will come to light.
-
What in the holy land of fucktown?!
Mike Portnoy :tdwn :tdwn
-
Did MP.com crash? I can't enter.
-
Winter is MPForum users are coming
-
life will go on :metal
-
Oh, go on, as it's a special occasion.
This is kind of a relief. Ever since the split, I've kind of found myself favouring Dream Theater and going off Mike Portnoy, but I didn't like that I was picking favourites. Setting loyalties. It always felt like I was being unfair. I'd wanted to see the good in both, and didn't at all like that I found myself resenting Portnoy, but I couldn't help but pit them against each other, and it was a match that Mike couldn't win.
I'm not torn any more. And I'm trying my utmost hardest not to be delighted that Weymolith walked out, but hey! What can I say, the man's got a good head on his shoulders. Looking forward to seeing a sea of MP.com refugees next I log in. You're all welcome by my mind.
-
Did MP.com crash? I can't enter.
Not yet.
-
Come stay here with me Steph, you know you want to. :heart
-
Sooo... Hey guys.
This looks like a nice place, I think I'll be hanging out here instead of... you know... where I just came from.
Welcome to DTF. Don't piss off Bosk1 and I think you'll be ok! :biggrin:
Yeah, take it from me. He's watching me right now. :lol
Always watching you...
:alwayswatchingyou:
-
Winter is MPForum users are coming
You.... you can stay. I like you.
-
Did MP.com crash? I can't enter.
Um...I'm guessing your lack of access might possibly have something to do with that thread you posted. :lol
I'm not torn any more. And I'm trying my utmost hardest not to be delighted that Weymolith walked out, but hey! What can I say, the man's got a good head on his shoulders.
People can say what they will about him, but he's always tried his best to do what he believes is right. :weymolith:
-
Did MP.com crash? I can't enter.
I don't know if you deliberately mistyped the site name, but porn links are strictly against forum rules. :facepalm:
-
Pretty sad shit. Hopefully Wey resurfaces around here, and/or 5/8.
-
Shouldn't the court papers at least block their addresses out?
-
That sucks.
>:( :censored >:(
:'(
-
so that means the family gets bigger and bigger?! :metal
i like that :metal
-
Twitter: Everyone chill out. I am legally NOT ALLOWED to speak of business matters, but I'm sure you realize there are two sides to every coin...
-
Shouldn't the court papers at least block their addresses out?
Public Domain, bro.
-
Pretty sad shit. Hopefully Wey resurfaces around here, and/or 5/8.
He's already here, but he doesn't post very often.
-
Twitter: Everyone chill out. I am legally NOT ALLOWED to speak of business matters, but I'm sure you realize there are two sides to every coin...
um....yeah........ :\
-
To me the biggest news is the fact that WEY quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rollin :rollin :rollin
-
Mike just tweeted:
"Everyone chill out. I am legally NOT ALLOWED to speak of business matters, but I'm sure you realize there are two sides to every coin..."
jmccon nailed it though:
"Let's try this again. It's not the lawsuit specifically that is pissing people off. It's the past 5 months of deception that is pissing people off. He filed back in April, said nothing about it while complaining that he was being made out to be the bad guy, while all along he knew full well he was suing them. It's the deception that hurts."
We shall see, but I suspect that the MP forum will take a long time to recover from this one, if it does at all.
-
Whatever he says, it's pretty much too late, the wheels are set in motion. He could have a perfectly good explanation, things will never be the same.
-
Twitter: Everyone chill out. I am legally NOT ALLOWED to speak of business matters, but I'm sure you realize there are two sides to every coin...
:loser:
-
He followed that tweet/FB post with another:
"In the meantime, life is bright and positive...I am happy and so are they....so shouldn't YOU be too??? Don't believe the hype...Carpe Diem!"
The tone of the wording does reinforce my belief that he is in a much better emotional state now than he was when he filed the suit. But it still doesn't affect my feelings towards the fact that he filed it in the first place. I really do hope for his sake that he has moved on, and that down the line he can reconcile with the guys in the band.
-
Did MP.com crash? I can't enter.
I don't know if you deliberately mistyped the site name, but porn links are strictly against forum rules. :facepalm:
It was on purpose. I'm like super-hyped with this situation :lol
Oh and, that last tweet just gives us more souls to feast on.
-
Pretty sad shit. Hopefully Wey resurfaces around here, and/or 5/8.
He's already here, but he doesn't post very often.
I know this, my dear friend.
-
Also, does everyone realize that this lawsuit was filed right around the time that the documentary shorts announcing Mike Mangini as the new drummer were being shown?
I was having dinner some 2 hours ago and I also thought of this... Could be a coincidence, though.
He followed that tweet/FB post with another:
"In the meantime, life is bright and positive...I am happy and so are they....so shouldn't YOU be too??? Don't believe the hype...Carpe Diem!"
The tone of the wording does reinforce my belief that he is in a much better emotional state now than he was when he filed the suit. But it still doesn't affect my feelings towards the fact that he filed it in the first place. I really do hope for his sake that he has moved on, and that down the line he can reconcile with the guys in the band.
Yeah, given the lawsuit was filed in April and the last few interviews have been less passive-aggressive... Seems like he's on the right way.
-
What a shame.
-
I know a few people who tweet or FB post all of the time about how happy they are, but they aren't at all. Anyone can word something to sound positive and happy, but that doesn't make it so.
-
Good God, what is this!? This apparently is what I come back from work to. On that note:
JR saying he was the DT Police
What interview was that from?
-
I know a few people who tweet or FB post all of the time about how happy they are, but they aren't at all. Anyone can word something to sound positive and happy, but that doesn't make it so.
You can tell a lot from the tone though. These tweets plus his recent interviews have been completely different from his tone when saying similar things a few months ago.
-
Did MP.com crash? I can't enter.
Um...I'm guessing your lack of access might possibly have something to do with that thread you posted. :lol
I was thinking the same thing!
:lol
-
Mike from the new interview, "Portnoy: "I didn't make the decision to leave DREAM THEATER before [hooking up with] AVENGED SEVENFOLD...."
Mike from the same interview, ""I think so. I think with ADRENALINE MOB it's just about having fun. I know when I left DREAM THEATER I was leaving a lot of security....."
I don't trust Mikes reasoning like this lawsuit.
-
PINK FLOYD
-
bosk should hire wey...
-
So now he locks threads and doesn't delete them. I just LOVE his reply thread. ::)
"Maybe they'll all still love me after my lying! :heart "
What a douche.
-
I know a few people who tweet or FB post all of the time about how happy they are, but they aren't at all. Anyone can word something to sound positive and happy, but that doesn't make it so.
Indeed, if anything he sounds desperate.
-
That is what is going on when it all comes down to money and business... what a crap. :(
-
what a crap. :(
I love you. :lol
-
I know a few people who tweet or FB post all of the time about how happy they are, but they aren't at all. Anyone can word something to sound positive and happy, but that doesn't make it so.
Indeed, if anything he sounds desperate.
See that's the thing, a few weeks back he did. But right now, he doesn't. IMO.
what a crap. :(
I love you. :lol
Such brilliant wording. :lol
-
"In the meantime, life is bright and positive...I am happy and so are they....so shouldn't YOU be too??? Don't believe the hype...Carpe Diem!"
Damn skippy. I'm surprised by how quickly this thing nosedived. This really should have been kind of a non-issue, and it's turned into a level 5 disaster.
(https://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo299/000jesus/a4578abf.jpg)
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Yeah I was thinking that as well. It does imply that, even if the matters themselves are resolved, the lawsuit itself is still open.
-
sigh...
-
I know a few people who tweet or FB post all of the time about how happy they are, but they aren't at all. Anyone can word something to sound positive and happy, but that doesn't make it so.
Indeed, if anything he sounds desperate.
See that's the thing, a few weeks back he did. But right now, he doesn't. IMO.
what a crap. :(
I love you. :lol
Such brilliant wording. :lol
I don't know, I just imagine him kind of sobbing and grinning forcefully and repeating "Think positive... Everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine... right? RIGHT? Carpe diem... CARPE DIEEEMMM!!!", and the blue dye off his beard kind of running with his tears as he scribbles Majesty symbols everywhere and then crosses them off.
-
"In the meantime, life is bright and positive...I am happy and so are they....so shouldn't YOU be too??? Don't believe the hype...Carpe Diem!"
Damn skippy. I'm surprised by how quickly this thing nosedived. This really should have been kind of a non-issue, and it's turned into a level 5 disaster.
(https://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo299/000jesus/a4578abf.jpg)
Hey, I know it's supposed to be a joke, but I never find a passenger plane on fire to be funny.
-
Cody...you rawk!!! My Polish Brotha :hat
-
:chill :chill :chill :chill :chill :chill :chill :chill :chill :chill :chill
-
Wow. What a lunatic.
-
Is Wey the guy who posts here under admin to scare us every now and then? Pretty decent the way he decided to quit and what he posted.
-
I don't know, I just imagine him kind of sobbing and grinning forcefully and repeating "Think positive... Everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine... right? RIGHT? Carpe diem... CARPE DIEEEMMM!!!", and the blue dye off his beard kind of running with his tears as he scribbles Majesty symbols everywhere and then crosses them off.
Ok I'll admit, that's a pretty funny image. :lol
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
I don't think so. I believe it's the difference between a gag order and non-disclosure agreement.
-
Haha, if you go on to MP's facebook and hit refresh every minute or so the number of fans decreases by a few. Either he's banning a load of people or people are leaving or both.
-
Cody...you rawk!!! My Polish Brotha :hat
LET ME INTRODUCE
MYYY BRROOOOOOOOTTTHHHHAAAAAA
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
-
Is Wey the guy who posts here under admin to scare us every now and then? Pretty decent the way he decided to quit and what he posted.
I would respond, but I'm afraid anything I post might be construed as disrespecting Egypt. :walklikeanegyptian:
-
(https://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10113813.jpg)
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
That's true, but you could still say "it's over" if it were. I'm sure he was just advised as you said. Let's put it this way, every time he opens his mouth it just goes down a notch. He's like Obama discussing the economy.
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
Yeah but it can't possibly still be in effect now that it's been publicized by Blabbermouth.
-
I know a few people who tweet or FB post all of the time about how happy they are, but they aren't at all. Anyone can word something to sound positive and happy, but that doesn't make it so.
Indeed, if anything he sounds desperate.
See that's the thing, a few weeks back he did. But right now, he doesn't. IMO.
what a crap. :(
I love you. :lol
Such brilliant wording. :lol
:tup :rollin
-
Now everybody over on his forum is like: We knew there was another side! We got your back.
It's kinda scary how they go back to status quo. I'm not trying to to troll. I'm serious, it's like a cult.
-
bosk, I made a tad too much lasagna, and it's just gonna go to waste. Why don't you come over, I've got some wine, we'll put on an LP, you'll eat this delicious lasagna (sprinkled feta on top, it's amazing) and we'll discuss these past few years. It's been -- well, polarizing.
I even have a sealed box of Cohiba Behike BHK 52. It's been awhile.
-
Is Wey the guy who posts here under admin to scare us every now and then? Pretty decent the way he decided to quit and what he posted.
I would respond, but I'm afraid anything I post might be construed as disrespecting Egypt. :walklikeanegyptian:
I vote funniest smiley ever. This is the second time you post it today and it's the second time I actually laugh loud at work :lol
-
Now everybody over on his forum is like: We knew there was another side! We got your back.
It's kinda scary how they go back to status quo. I'm not trying to to troll. I'm serious, it's like a cult.
Forum: "OH MY GOD MP THERE IS ALL THIS BAD EVIDENCE AND YOU SUED DT, WE HATE YOU MASSIVELY, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY FOR YOURSELF?"
MP: "I'm happy, lol"
Forum: "Oh... okay"
-
:-*
(https://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10113813.jpg)
haha! would be better like "leaves band. sues them"
-
Now everybody over on his forum is like: We knew there was another side! We got your back.
It's kinda scary how they go back to status quo. I'm not trying to to troll. I'm serious, it's like a cult.
what did you expect? it's a fan forum... it's filled with... well, fanboys
-
(https://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10113813.jpg)
I literally spit up my water when I saw this. :rollin :heart
-
(https://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10113813.jpg)
:lol :lol :lol
Can I use this???? PUUULEEAASE!!!!!! ;D
-
Needs the douchebag hat for maximum meme reference appeal.
-
DO IT! true scumbag steve style
-
Heh Charlie Dominici posted on MPs Facebook wall
"Just like in a divorce,everyone has a right to be treated fairly. Sometimes those rights have to be exercised in a legal forum.I hope you all can put it to rest and move on without any animosity. Life is short! \m/"
-
I guess this really has been a dramatic turn of events. Mike Portnoy is really breaking all remaining illusions of respect that anyone really had for him anymore. At first I didn't think there was that much beneath the surface of the lawsuit besides spite, but now I think it's really an outcry to be back in the band. But with the lawsuit he's really burning all the bridges in the sky. Mike left the band and this is the life that he chose. It's his fault he's so far from the heaven that DT is to him. But we all just have to keep in mind that the good, ol' Mike Portnoy era of DT is lost, not forgotten. MP needs to focus on building himself up again without breaking DT down in the process.
On The Backs Of Angels is a pretty good song too.
-
Heh Charlie Dominici posted on MPs Facebook wall
"Just like in a divorce,everyone has a right to be treated fairly. Sometimes those rights have to be exercised in a legal forum.I hope you all can put it to rest and move on without any animosity. Life is short! \m/"
Maybe DS and KM will be next!! well....maybe not KM..... ;D
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
True, but there is also a strong likelihood that the lawsuit is ongoing. There's only one documented file date for anything regarding this case. I would figure it is fairly likely that some form of hearing has been set or that the summons was pushed off by the DT/RR lawyers due to touring and prior commitments. I don't get the feeling that the band is very complicit in MP's demands either... But all speculation! As you say, we do not know. But likelihood doesn't point to this being over.
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
That's true, but you could still say "it's over" if it were. I'm sure he was just advised as you said. Let's put it this way, every time he opens his mouth it just goes down a notch. He's like Obama discussing the economy.
No need to bring politics into this. We already have one shitstorm, let's not create another one.
-
Hypocrite. How could you be so cruel, and expect my faith in return?
In all seriousness, this has saddened me. MP the person is completely out of view for me now.
-
Heh Charlie Dominici posted on MPs Facebook wall
"Just like in a divorce,everyone has a right to be treated fairly. Sometimes those rights have to be exercised in a legal forum.I hope you all can put it to rest and move on without any animosity. Life is short! \m/"
That's really something I never thought I'd see, Charlie Dominici commenting on MP, who quit and sued Dream Theater.
This is weird.
-
Hypocrite. How could you be so cruel, and expect my faith in return?
Just when I thought I believed you...
What are you doing?
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
Yeah but it can't possibly still be in effect now that it's been publicized by Blabbermouth.
Sure it can. And Blabbermouth didn't disclose anything that isn't public record.
-
Blabbermouth. Disclose. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
-
Hypocrite. How could you be so cruel, and expect my faith in return?
:clap: Best quote so far.
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
Yeah but it can't possibly still be in effect now that it's been publicized by Blabbermouth.
Sure it can. And Blabbermouth didn't disclose anything that isn't public record.
I'm sorry, I'm not a law guy, but how can there been an NDA on something that is public record?
-
Also they are still not playing songs that MP wrote the lyrics for. That's probably on the advice of their lawyers and is a loss mitigation technique if anything is not ruled in their favor.
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
Yeah but it can't possibly still be in effect now that it's been publicized by Blabbermouth.
Sure it can. And Blabbermouth didn't disclose anything that isn't public record.
I'm sorry, I'm not a law guy, but how can there been an NDA on something that is public record?
If it's part of a settlement agreement I'd guess.
-
my head is spinning right now. I've only ever had one photo in one frame for ever in my room ,and its me and MP. Unfortunately, now is the time to take that down, maybe get a little less personal about this shit. Man, what fucking drama. I've had a long ass day working and now I realize just staying on top of this drama is keeping me from sleeping haha, its like crack.
-
im glad charlie dominici added his 2 cents lul
-
I posted in a thread earlier today about how despite MP's poor behavior in recent months, I still idolised him as a drummer and to some extent as a person. That is now jeapordised. The guy simply has to let this lie. It's all his own doing. I have no respect for him anymore.
Mike I'llseeyouincourtnoy. I never thought i'd see the day.
-
Also they are still not playing songs that MP wrote the lyrics for. That's probably on the advice of their lawyers and is a loss mitigation technique if anything is not ruled in their favor.
They play songs with lyrics penned by Kevin Moore and Charlie Dominici.
im glad charlie dominici added his 2 cents lul
He should write about that in his forum.
-
Kevin Moore, in an alternate universe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGtWssdauME&feature=player_detailpage#t=9s
-
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
True, but there is also a strong likelihood that the lawsuit is ongoing. There's only one documented file date for anything regarding this case. I would figure it is fairly likely that some form of hearing has been set or that the summons was pushed off by the DT/RR lawyers due to touring and prior commitments. I don't get the feeling that the band is very complicit in MP's demands either... But all speculation! As you say, we do not know. But likelihood doesn't point to this being over.
If the case were still moving forward, wouldn't the temporary injunction have kicked in?
Let's also keep in mind that this isn't the first time they've dealt with a departing founding member. I suspect they probably had their ducks in a row.
-
Mike I'llseeyouincourtnoy.
:lol :lol :rollin
-
Now everybody over on his forum is like: We knew there was another side! We got your back.
It's kinda scary how they go back to status quo. I'm not trying to to troll. I'm serious, it's like a cult.
That's not what's happened. Most of the members who were up in arms or pissed have said their case and moved on (or been banned, in many cases), leaving the fanboys to their... erm... fanboy-ism.
-
Mike I'llseeyouincourtnoy.
:lol :lol :lol
-
I guess this really has been a dramatic turn of events. Mike Portnoy is really breaking all remaining illusions of respect that anyone really had for him anymore. At first I didn't think there was that much beneath the surface of the lawsuit besides spite, but now I think it's really an outcry to be back in the band. But with the lawsuit he's really burning all the bridges in the sky. Mike left the band and this is the life that he chose. It's his fault he's so far from the heaven that DT is to him. But we all just have to keep in mind that the good, ol' Mike Portnoy era of DT is lost, not forgotten. MP needs to focus on building himself up again without breaking DT down in the process.
On The Backs Of Angels is a pretty good song too.
This was actually pretty good. :lol
-
Mike I'llseeyouincourtnoy.
:lol :lol :lol
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
-
If the case were still moving forward, wouldn't the temporary injunction have kicked in?
Let's also keep in mind that this isn't the first time they've dealt with a departing founding member. I suspect they probably had their ducks in a row.
[/quote]
I don't think the injunction would have kicked in if they stayed the summons but idk
-
MEANWHILE, IN ISTANBUL:
*Kevin Moore playing piano*
KM: Whoa, what's up with all the noise? I'm focusing on the new solo album.
Random Dude: Sorry Kevs, Mike Portnoy has sued Dream Theater.
KM: But... He left the band, just like me, didn't he?
RD: Well yeah but he's suing them over not using the name for good or something like that.
KM: ...
RD: ...
KM: ... Douche.
*KM keeps playing piano*
-
If the case were still moving forward, wouldn't the temporary injunction have kicked in?
Only if a preliminary injunction was granted at the outset of the case. And those are almost never granted. Think about it. A preliminary injunction is a judge saying, "There is a lot that needs to happen in the next few months/years before this gets to trial. But the potential harm is so great that even though the evidence isn't in yet, I'm going to order that the defendants can't use the name until years from now when this gets all sorted out." Preliminary injunctions are VERY rarely granted.
Welp, if he LEGALLY can't say anything.. That means his lawsuit is still in effect, and just as I had suspected, everyone is under a gag order. Neat.
Not necessarily. Settlements often have a confidentiality clause that prevents the parties from discussing the lawsuit even after it is over. And even if there is no such thing here, his lawyer likely advised him not to publicly discuss it anyway. We just don't know.
Yeah but it can't possibly still be in effect now that it's been publicized by Blabbermouth.
Sure it can. And Blabbermouth didn't disclose anything that isn't public record.
I'm sorry, I'm not a law guy, but how can there been an NDA on something that is public record?
The lawsuit itself is public record. Each side's opinions, strategies, settlement discussions, and a bunch of other things are not.
-
:-*snip
haha! would be better like "leaves band. sues them"
please do that.
-
Heh Charlie Dominici posted on MPs Facebook wall
"Just like in a divorce,everyone has a right to be treated fairly. Sometimes those rights have to be exercised in a legal forum.I hope you all can put it to rest and move on without any animosity. Life is short! \m/"
That's really something I never thought I'd see, Charlie Dominici commenting on MP, who quit and sued Dream Theater.
This is weird.
-
So let me get this straight......all of this because MP's father came up with the band name? So he thinks he owns it???
I don't mean this comment to be disrespectful, but is it possible that MP's lashing out has been in response to the death of his father?
(https://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10113813.jpg)
:rollin :rollin :rollin
-
Now everybody over on his forum is like: We knew there was another side! We got your back.
It's kinda scary how they go back to status quo. I'm not trying to to troll. I'm serious, it's like a cult.
That's not what's happened. Most of the members who were up in arms or pissed have said their case and moved on (or been banned, in many cases), leaving the fanboys to their... erm... fanboy-ism.
This, but also the thread that has the summons letter link is no longer there, so they probably have no idea why he's suing, and came in after the thread was nuked
Even if they did, he'll still have his fanboys
-
Also they are still not playing songs that MP wrote the lyrics for. That's probably on the advice of their lawyers and is a loss mitigation technique if anything is not ruled in their favor.
They play songs with lyrics penned by Kevin Moore and Charlie Dominici.
Kevin Moore and Charlie Dominici haven't sued Dream Theater (as far as we know).
-
Lovely. My favorite drummer is making it very hard to back him up recently.
-
Heh Charlie Dominici posted on MPs Facebook wall
"Just like in a divorce,everyone has a right to be treated fairly. Sometimes those rights have to be exercised in a legal forum.I hope you all can put it to rest and move on without any animosity. Life is short! \m/"
He's building bridges with Mike so that if he wins the rights to the name, they can form a new Dream Theater.
-
Man,what a year in DT land..
a rollercoaster ride..
It's pity though that the DT news of the day is about a lawsuit and not about music..
-
This'd make a great chapter in Lifting Shadows.
-
Also they are still not playing songs that MP wrote the lyrics for. That's probably on the advice of their lawyers and is a loss mitigation technique if anything is not ruled in their favor.
They play songs with lyrics penned by Kevin Moore and Charlie Dominici.
Kevin Moore and Charlie Dominici haven't sued Dream Theater (as far as we know).
For all we know they have. Back then there was no Twitter or Blabbermouth or any shit to over-inform the public.
-
I'm sorry but Mike, you ballsed up. I lost my respect for him. That being said, I won't forget what you did for the band, but what you've done TO the band afterwards is something I think many people would like to forget years down the road.
-
MEANWHILE, IN ISTANBUL:
*Kevin Moore playing piano*
KM: Whoa, what's up with all the noise? I'm focusing on the new solo album.
Random Dude: Sorry Kevs, Mike Portnoy has sued Dream Theater.
KM: But... He left the band, just like me, didn't he?
RD: Well yeah but he's suing them over not using the name for good or something like that.
KM: ...
RD: ...
KM: ... Douche.
*KM keeps playing piano*
Haha! Love it! :rollin
-
Heh Charlie Dominici posted on MPs Facebook wall
"Just like in a divorce,everyone has a right to be treated fairly. Sometimes those rights have to be exercised in a legal forum.I hope you all can put it to rest and move on without any animosity. Life is short! \m/"
He's building bridges with Mike so that if he wins the rights to the name, they can form a new Dream Theater.
"I helped him kill the baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand..."
-
Never in my life have I seen someone, so ignorant to the damage he has done.
-
Sigh.
MP could really stand to see a therapist.
-
So MP comparing himself to Roger Waters was a massive Freudian slip then?
-
Mike I'llseeyouincourtnoy.
:rollin
-
Never in my life have I seen someone, so ignorant to the damage he has done.
All these MP song lyrics are a lolfest.
-
:-*snip
haha! would be better like "leaves band. sues them"
please do that.
-
Never in my life have I seen someone, so ignorant to the damage he has done.
All these MP song lyrics are a lolfest.
His poor kids. No son should ever have to see his father such a mess.
-
Personally, I am just sick to death of hearing about the guy.
-
I don't understand most people's reaction to this DT's-MP drama. I cannot seriously relate to any of this or get personally involved, I don't give a damn and I don't know why I think people should do the same. You know, it's about people I don't really care for, and whatever their relationships are, it won't affect me or my life in the slightest. I recently bought MP's instructional videos and I enjoy watching them, as I enjoy listening to the good songs on the new DT album, and will enjoy most of the music they or Mike make in the future. I don't see an artist as someone I have respect for, but just someone who I admire for his musical ability and nothing more, and not necessarily like on a personal level, and therefore their personal actions leave me completely indifferent. But this thread reaching 10+ pages so quickly tells me that people love internet drama a little bit too much.
It doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it? Or am I wrong? I don't know.
-
I don't understand most people's reaction to this DT's-MP drama. I cannot seriously relate to any of this or get personally involved, I don't give a damn and I don't know why I think people should do the same. You know, it's about people I don't really care for, and whatever their relationships are, it won't affect me or my life in the slightest. I recently bought MP's instructional videos and I enjoy watching them, as I enjoy listening to the good songs on the new DT album, and will enjoy most of the music they or Mike make in the future. I don't see an artist as someone I have respect for, but just someone who I admire, but not necessarily like on a personal level, and therefore their personal actions leave me completely indifferent. But this thread reaching 10+ pages so quickly tells me that people love internet drama a little bit too much.
It doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it? Or am I wrong? I don't know.
Your overall point is valid, but a lawsuit actually could affect our lives in minor ways, in that it could affect Dream Theater's ability to move forward as a band.
-
I don't understand most people's reaction to this DT's-MP drama. I cannot seriously relate to any of this or get personally involved, I don't give a damn and I don't know why I think people should do the same. You know, it's about people I don't really care for, and whatever their relationships are, it won't affect me or my life in the slightest. I recently bought MP's instructional videos and I enjoy watching them, as I enjoy listening to the good songs on the new DT album, and will enjoy most of the music they or Mike make in the future. I don't see an artist as someone I have respect for, but just someone who I admire, but not necessarily like on a personal level, and therefore their personal actions leave me completely indifferent. But this thread reaching 10+ pages so quickly tells me that people love internet drama a little bit too much.
It doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it? Or am I wrong? I don't know.
It doesn't. But it's a Dream Theater forum, for talking about the band, and that's what we'll do... :corn
-
Mike Portnoy used to be a bucket of lol. Now he's a bucket of lol with two sides and a biscuit.
That's all I have to say on this subject.
-
Meh, I'll just edit it out to stop Bosk having any problems for it being posted on here and just leave the link, also bonus MP response now on page 2.
https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2710667&mpage=1#2710754
-
"In Smirnoff words, very short version. Mike was acting like a jackass all day with a huge (e)go. When his drum tech wasn't going fast enough for him, and when he wasn't getting his attention the second he asked for it, he kicked him in the face casuing injury. His tech is one of Smirnoff's good friends. When he reported that on the forum. Mike sent him a giant email berating Smirnoff for letting that story go public saying it would ruin his career."
-
Finding this out so far from when it actually happens pisses me off. The fact that Portnoy was going around saying, "herp derp the guys won't talk to me unless its through their lawyers herp derp" while hiding the fact that he was suing the band. I mean no shit they weren't talking to you except through lawyers.
I don't know. I'm really disappointed and I've lost so much respect for Portnoy this past year, that this is just the nail in the coffin.
-
That hurts my face.
The kicking thing has nothing at all to do with the lawsuit, but it's interesting that this finally came out now that the moderation is almost gone over there.
-
I didn't read all ten or so pages so far...but I went over to MP's forum to see what Mike had to say about all this, and Wey bouncing on him tells me more than anything anyone in the band could ever say. And I feel like I've given him the benefit of the doubt on every thread I've ever posted in here or there. Wey...I think...and it's purely my opinion here...over-policed that forum, and went above and beyond to support and shelter Mike. Him walking...that right there is the point where I figure something isn't cool on a whole other level. I saw what he posted...and I'm more shocked he quit Mike than Mike quitting DT.
I mean...I didn't like it over there. And I certainly didn't care for how I had to be ultra-careful, but I figured Wey was a stand-up guy for who he needed to be a stand-up guy for...and I joined over here. I really feel for the guy. He put in a ton of time. I'm not completely sure what set it off. If it was that he wasn't aware before the news dropped ONLY...or if this was the culmination of several factors, but as I said, Wey bolting speaks volumes to me.
Sorry about this Wey...if you see this. Really.
-
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-Illseeyouincourtnoy/199034400167562
I lol'd ridiculously hard.
-
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-Illseeyouincourtnoy/199034400167562
I lol'd ridiculously hard.
Lol that caught on fast! Fans of my drunken work!
-
auto-like
-
I don't understand most people's reaction to this DT's-MP drama. I cannot seriously relate to any of this or get personally involved, I don't give a damn and I don't know why I think people should do the same. You know, it's about people I don't really care for, and whatever their relationships are, it won't affect me or my life in the slightest. I recently bought MP's instructional videos and I enjoy watching them, as I enjoy listening to the good songs on the new DT album, and will enjoy most of the music they or Mike make in the future. I don't see an artist as someone I have respect for, but just someone who I admire, but not necessarily like on a personal level, and therefore their personal actions leave me completely indifferent. But this thread reaching 10+ pages so quickly tells me that people love internet drama a little bit too much.
It doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it? Or am I wrong? I don't know.
Your overall point is valid, but a lawsuit actually could affect our lives in minor ways, in that it could affect Dream Theater's ability to move forward as a band.
Ok, but people are not pointing out any of that, but taking everything at a very personal level. They're showing a great deal of disappointment and lost of respect ("there goes the last bit of my respect towards him"...like anybody would give a damn)towards MP, and they seem so affected to the point of making fun of him with offensive jokes (like the ones related to his drinking problem). I don't know, I just can't feel any of that. To me, he's just a guy who makes music I like, not some sort of idol or role model. Otherwise, if I cared for the artist's I like personal lives, my own life would be a hell :lol
-
I always blew off those comments of people saying "Oh look, MP really thinks he is DT" But after reading this, maybe it is true... In Portnoy's mind, does he think "MP = DT"?
-
I don't understand most people's reaction to this DT's-MP drama. I cannot seriously relate to any of this or get personally involved, I don't give a damn and I don't know why I think people should do the same. You know, it's about people I don't really care for, and whatever their relationships are, it won't affect me or my life in the slightest. I recently bought MP's instructional videos and I enjoy watching them, as I enjoy listening to the good songs on the new DT album, and will enjoy most of the music they or Mike make in the future. I don't see an artist as someone I have respect for, but just someone who I admire, but not necessarily like on a personal level, and therefore their personal actions leave me completely indifferent. But this thread reaching 10+ pages so quickly tells me that people love internet drama a little bit too much.
It doesn't matter at the end of the day, does it? Or am I wrong? I don't know.
Your overall point is valid, but a lawsuit actually could affect our lives in minor ways, in that it could affect Dream Theater's ability to move forward as a band.
Ok, but people are not pointing out any of that, but taking everything at a very personal level. They're showing a great deal of disappointment and lost of respect ("there goes the last bit of my respect towards him"...like anybody would give a damn)towards MP, and they seem so affected to the point of making fun of him with offensive jokes (like the ones related to his drinking problem). I don't know, I just can't feel any of that. To me, he's just a guy who makes music I like, not some sort of idol or role model. Otherwise, if I cared for the artist's I like personal life, my own life would be a hell :lol
I don't know about you, but for a lot of us Mike Portnoy and Dream Theater were idols. I went into my current career because of this music, and it defined a lot of my habits and interests around high school and college. It's part of what made me who I am right now. It's like seeing your greatest idol turn from a kind of perfect god to this embarrassment, and then finding out it was like that for a long time before, only you just didn't know (although I started kind of not liking him around SC). So yes, it DOES personally affect me.
And hearing that he kicks his drum techs in the face doesn't help very much, but that probably affects the drum techs personally more than it does me.
-
"In Smirnoff words, very short version. Mike was acting like a jackass all day with a huge (e)go. When his drum tech wasn't going fast enough for him, and when he wasn't getting his attention the second he asked for it, he kicked him in the face casuing injury. His tech is one of Smirnoff's good friends. When he reported that on the forum. Mike sent him a giant email berating Smirnoff for letting that story go public saying it would ruin his career."
"This is COMPLETE BS....I have no idea where this came from....
I am VERY GOOD FRIENDS w Victor Salazar who ran that show and was my drum tech that night...I just saw him about 2 weeks ago and we are VERY CLOSE and he'd be the first person to say so...
Everybody needs to stop this witch hunt immediately....the negativity is absolutely maddening and downright cruel...
I am human being w feelings!!
The internet can be poison and this kind of stuff ruins people's lives...
Go outside and smell the fresh air!
Life is good....let's keep it that way...
I'll still be here giving you 110% if you want it.... "
-
"Some of us choose to live gracefully, some can get caught in the maze, and lose their way home..."
Mike, I think the reason everyone is so disappointed is because we've had a great deal of love and respect for you and you just can't see that you're going down a dark path here. It just seems that there's no objectivity. Doesn't mean you're a bad person, just that you're hurt and confused and how will you know if no one says anything to you?
So sad for everyone involved. :tdwn
-
I can't believe anything MP says anymore. I've lost all respect for the man and the trust has been obliterated. There is nothing left.
"Nothing but ashes."
-
Hey. Remember back when people assumed this was going to happen/was happening and they got shot down for saying that? Yeah. People were like, "MP quit DT to join A7X!" and "MP is probably suing DT about the band name!" And everyone was like, "You're crazy. Stop jumping to conclusions. You're dumb."
And look where we are now.
My first thought as well. :lol In DT land, never say never I guess.
And this isn't really a big surprise to me at all. Nor does it really affect me in any way, shape or form.
-
I can't believe anything MP says anymore. I've lost all respect for the man and the trust has been obliterated. There is nothing left.
"Nothing but ashes."
I'm pretty sure he could pull out a perfectly reasonable explanation that exonerates him, at this point it's too late, the wheels are kind of 'a turnin'.
-
"In Smirnoff words, very short version. Mike was acting like a jackass all day with a huge (e)go. When his drum tech wasn't going fast enough for him, and when he wasn't getting his attention the second he asked for it, he kicked him in the face casuing injury. His tech is one of Smirnoff's good friends. When he reported that on the forum. Mike sent him a giant email berating Smirnoff for letting that story go public saying it would ruin his career."
"This is COMPLETE BS....I have no idea where this came from....
I am VERY GOOD FRIENDS w Victor Salazar who ran that show and was my drum tech that night...I just saw him about 2 weeks ago and we are VERY CLOSE and he'd be the first person to say so...
Everybody needs to stop this witch hunt immediately....the negativity is absolutely maddening and downright cruel...
I am human being w feelings!!
The internet can be poison and this kind of stuff ruins people's lives...
Go outside and smell the fresh air!
Life is good....let's keep it that way...
I'll still be here giving you 110% if you want it.... "
Y'know actually, this is the point at which I begin to feel bad for him.
-
MP is so lucky to have a great dude like JP as a friend. Seriously, all of that and not even saying anything remotely bad against MP? JP, you're one classy man. :tup
-
Geez, mp.com has gone batshit. This is surreal.
-
MP is so lucky to have a great dude like JP as a friend. Seriously, all of that and not even saying anything remotely bad against MP? JP, you're one classy man. :tup
JP is so lucky to be in a band that no longer includes MP :biggrin:
-
Ok, but people are not pointing out any of that, but taking everything at a very personal level. They're showing a great deal of disappointment and lost of respect ("there goes the last bit of my respect towards him"...like anybody would give a damn)towards MP, and they seem so affected to the point of making fun of him with offensive jokes (like the ones related to his drinking problem). I don't know, I just can't feel any of that. To me, he's just a guy who makes music I like, not some sort of idol or role model. Otherwise, if I cared for the artist's I like personal lives, my own life would be a hell :lol
The problem for me is, I NEED to respect the musician's I listen to. Maybe that's just me. Examples for me are Neil Young and Eddie Vedder. I used to love them till they got ultra political with the music. At that point I lost respect and all interest in their music. It doesn't matter whether they're ultra talented or not to me. Another example, yet not music related, is Vick. So I guess it works with more than just music for me.
-
At some point I asked myself how it was possible for a guy to fuck things up so much. After thinking through it a lot, I just feel the guy went through a lot and was not able to handle it properly. Let's start by the fact that he lost his dad recently. I know it's been two years but I don't think that is something you get over easily speacially when you adore your dad the way we know Mike did. After that, he decides to leave DT which is not an easy decission for him no matter what the circumstances behind that decission were. This makes him lose some of his best friends. Shortly after, the guys he was probably relaying on (A7X) tell him that they are not touring with him anymore. When all this shit comes up on you and the people you trust will help you are no longer there you just crack and I think this is exactly what happened to him.
I won't defend what he's done so far because I don't think it's right, but I'm not gonna judge his poor reaction to all of this because i'm sure that if I was in his shoes I would have done a lot of things wrong too.
-
I didn't read all ten or so pages so far...but I went over to MP's forum to see what Mike had to say about all this, and Wey bouncing on him tells me more than anything anyone in the band could ever say. And I feel like I've given him the benefit of the doubt on every thread I've ever posted in here or there. Wey...I think...and it's purely my opinion here...over-policed that forum, and went above and beyond to support and shelter Mike. Him walking...that right there is the point where I figure something isn't cool on a whole other level. I saw what he posted...and I'm more shocked he quit Mike than Mike quitting DT.
I mean...I didn't like it over there. And I certainly didn't care for how I had to be ultra-careful, but I figured Wey was a stand-up guy for who he needed to be a stand-up guy for...and I joined over here. I really feel for the guy. He put in a ton of time. I'm not completely sure what set it off. If it was that he wasn't aware before the news dropped ONLY...or if this was the culmination of several factors, but as I said, Wey bolting speaks volumes to me.
Sorry about this Wey...if you see this. Really.
What did Wey say to Mike?
-
After MP left, I was still supporting him on all of the projects that he was involved in (A7X, Neal Morse, and even AMob). My respect was going down hill when I saw his comment about the new DT album ("desperate attempt of rewriting the past"). The little respect I had now is officially over.
-
Wey is a really nice guy. A little harsh at times, but the guy went through a TON of shit. I don't know if I agree with how fast he made the decision, but he is also employed by Dream Theater. Can't blame him.
A guy from the metal sludge message board I used to frequent was banned from MP.com, for what I later learned was referencing a site that has illegal downloads...but he didn't understand why. I messaged Wey to ask him about that and got a very bitchy response back saying he doesn't have time to be bothered by people like me when he should be having a good time getting dinner with MP and had to explain the problems on the forum. (I guess MP was in town and their conversation turned into business crap). I kinda felt bad for him because it was such an unreasonable response and I was careful not to be accusatory in my initial message. I kinda let him know in a way that was strongly worded but wouldn't get me banned and then he asked me to tell the people at metal sludge to stop flooding the message board with fake account activation requests. I just sorta said, "haha, dude...you expect me to try to put an end to that? that place is like the wild west and I'm not putting my neck out in a gun fight"
Anyway, about a month later I had a stupid technical question about computers (I am freakin' dumb when it comes to these things) and he was the first to answer my question. I guess at that point I considered it water under the bridge and tried to tread lightly.
I hope he's doing well. This whole thing has to be about as much of a headache for him as MP considering Wey doesn't have all the resources and money to back him up.
-
Meanwhile, in MM land:
"The new production and kit adjustments are coming along very well :):) Me happy !! We're working very long days on just gear stuff and the crew made time to drop my riser a bit so I'm closer to the guys now with more level eye contact. I hope all of your coming to see us can feel the vibe and are into this fantastic production that is planned."
-
:):) Awesome news Mr Man Genie :)
-
I haven't been on the MP forum in a long time, but that place feels like it's just been liberated from totalitarian rule or something. Powerful stuff.
-
I didn't read all ten or so pages so far...but I went over to MP's forum to see what Mike had to say about all this, and Wey bouncing on him tells me more than anything anyone in the band could ever say. And I feel like I've given him the benefit of the doubt on every thread I've ever posted in here or there. Wey...I think...and it's purely my opinion here...over-policed that forum, and went above and beyond to support and shelter Mike. Him walking...that right there is the point where I figure something isn't cool on a whole other level. I saw what he posted...and I'm more shocked he quit Mike than Mike quitting DT.
I mean...I didn't like it over there. And I certainly didn't care for how I had to be ultra-careful, but I figured Wey was a stand-up guy for who he needed to be a stand-up guy for...and I joined over here. I really feel for the guy. He put in a ton of time. I'm not completely sure what set it off. If it was that he wasn't aware before the news dropped ONLY...or if this was the culmination of several factors, but as I said, Wey bolting speaks volumes to me.
Sorry about this Wey...if you see this. Really.
What did Wey say to Mike?
https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2710450.aspx
Unless I'm mistaken...and if so I apologize...this is his post as re-posted. If I'm wrong...the general talk over there is that Wey quit. And that's the point behind my post. It's not so much what he said...but if he left...that says a lot.
-
:):) Awesome news Mr Man Genie :)
Half man, half genie. All awesome.
So happy to have such a loveable replacement in dark times like these.
-
I've officially lost all respect for Mike Portnoy.
That means I pretty much can't really post in this thread beyond that initial reaction, because a good bashing is honestly what Mike deserves but I'm not going to put my membership on the line for it.
-
Well, he filed back in April, so a lot has happened since then. Who knows what has happened since then? Since the band released the album and is touring, he obviously wasn't able to get a preliminary injunction (which is about what I would have expected the result to be). But in the mean time, he may have dropped the suit, settled, whatever. There's no way of knowing at the time being (the N.Y.S.C.'s online docket has been acting screwy for awhile now, so can't tell if there are other documents on file from any of the parties).
I believe this is correct. I believe that negotiations are ongoing, but are very difficult because the demands by Mike are patently ridiculous and completely overstatement his contributions.
-
Ok, but people are not pointing out any of that, but taking everything at a very personal level. They're showing a great deal of disappointment and lost of respect ("there goes the last bit of my respect towards him"...like anybody would give a damn)towards MP, and they seem so affected to the point of making fun of him with offensive jokes (like the ones related to his drinking problem). I don't know, I just can't feel any of that. To me, he's just a guy who makes music I like, not some sort of idol or role model. Otherwise, if I cared for the artist's I like personal lives, my own life would be a hell :lol
The problem for me is, I NEED to respect the musician's I listen to. Maybe that's just me. Examples for me are Neil Young and Eddie Vedder. I used to love them till they got ultra political with the music. At that point I lost respect and all interest in their music. It doesn't matter whether they're ultra talented or not to me. Another example, yet not music related, is Vick. So I guess it works with more than just music for me.
Huge difference: Neil Young and Eddie Vedder are guys whose music is influenced by their political leanings; Michael Vick tortured and murdered dogs.
I don't know how long you've been listening to music, but a lot of guys have done a lot of bad things.
"Trust the tale, not the teller".
-
I have a feeling Portnoy was probably waiting for months to file the lawsuit, but had to wait until DT officially launched their first promotion for the new album or tourdates using the DT name. I could be wrong obviously, but that's what I thought when I first read this. I mean, why wait until April otherwise.
-
Well, he filed back in April, so a lot has happened since then. Who knows what has happened since then? Since the band released the album and is touring, he obviously wasn't able to get a preliminary injunction (which is about what I would have expected the result to be). But in the mean time, he may have dropped the suit, settled, whatever. There's no way of knowing at the time being (the N.Y.S.C.'s online docket has been acting screwy for awhile now, so can't tell if there are other documents on file from any of the parties).
I believe this is correct. I believe that negotiations are ongoing, but are very difficult because the demands by Mike are patently ridiculous and completely overstatement his contributions.
M13..Thought of your comments last fall when I heard today's news.
Where you been, man?
-
Must have been a crazy day at Stone Sour rehearsals!
-
When Wey quits the MP forum you know MP crossed a line.
-
I haven't been on the MP forum in a long time, but that place feels like it's just been liberated from totalitarian rule or something. Powerful stuff.
More like the inmates running the asylum....seriously...
I've been a part of the DT community since the Cyber Moon days (was that even the name? It's been so long I've dumped the cache file), so I've known alot of you for a very long time...but I've NEVER seen ANYTHING like this.
I didn't always agree with the way Wey handled things...but I really respected him at every single turn. He did what he felt he had to do to keep the peace, and he never compromised his principles. For that, he has my respectful "bromance" forever. But with him gone...it's just a freakin MESS.
Looks like you guys might be seeing alot more of me here.
-
I haven't been on the MP forum in a long time, but that place feels like it's just been liberated from totalitarian rule or something. Powerful stuff.
More like the inmates running the asylum....seriously...
I've been a part of the DT community since the Cyber Moon days (was that even the name? It's been so long I've dumped the cache file), so I've known alot of you for a very long time...but I've NEVER seen ANYTHING like this.
I didn't always agree with the way Wey handled things...but I really respected him at every single turn. He did what he felt he had to do to keep the peace, and he never compromised his principles. For that, he has my respectful "bromance" forever. But with him gone...it's just a freakin MESS.
Looks like you guys might be seeing alot more of me here.
Welcome :)
-
If the lawsuit was closed, wouldn't that closure be a matter of public record? Not the actual terms of the settlement necessarily, but the fact that it's over.
-
Mike Portnoy raises a child.
Mike Portnoy gives the child away to a new mommy.
Mike Portnoy sues the child.
What.
-
When Wey quits the MP forum you know MP crossed a line.
That's exactly right. Powerful stuff. Like him or not (I did) he was ALWAYS 100% in support of Mike but he tried very
hard IMO to treat everyone equally over there...unless you were a troll. He had integrity.
-
Yeah...lol just wow. :facepalm:
-
Well, he filed back in April, so a lot has happened since then. Who knows what has happened since then? Since the band released the album and is touring, he obviously wasn't able to get a preliminary injunction (which is about what I would have expected the result to be). But in the mean time, he may have dropped the suit, settled, whatever. There's no way of knowing at the time being (the N.Y.S.C.'s online docket has been acting screwy for awhile now, so can't tell if there are other documents on file from any of the parties).
I believe this is correct. I believe that negotiations are ongoing, but are very difficult because the demands by Mike are patently ridiculous and completely overstatement his contributions.
M13..Thought of your comments last fall when I heard today's news.
Where you been, man?
Lurking in the weeds so to speak. I have to be careful how much I post. I have a talent for getting banned.
-
Also, MP is no longer a member of DT. :neverusethis:
Not only is he not a band member, but he sued DT, making him basically an enemy of the band... I don't think there should be any reason not to be negative about him as long as we're not in bad taste.
-
Well, he filed back in April, so a lot has happened since then. Who knows what has happened since then? Since the band released the album and is touring, he obviously wasn't able to get a preliminary injunction (which is about what I would have expected the result to be). But in the mean time, he may have dropped the suit, settled, whatever. There's no way of knowing at the time being (the N.Y.S.C.'s online docket has been acting screwy for awhile now, so can't tell if there are other documents on file from any of the parties).
I believe this is correct. I believe that negotiations are ongoing, but are very difficult because the demands by Mike are patently ridiculous and completely overstatement his contributions.
M13..Thought of your comments last fall when I heard today's news.
Where you been, man?
Lurking in the weeds so to speak. I have to be careful how much I post. I have a talent for getting banned.
Well, whatever you do, do NOT get banned! :D
-
New MP post on Facebook: "I appreciate all of the POSITIVE posts of love & support today...YOU are the reason I do this...the rest can spread their poison elsewhere."
-
Also I love how he pretends to be this positive and happy person. But he obviously not. He seems like a pretty miserable human being.
-
New MP post on Facebook: "I appreciate all of the POSITIVE posts of love & support today...YOU are the reason I do this...the rest can spread their poison elsewhere."
So basically - if people agree with you suing your old band that's fine. Actual Dream theater fans don't count.
-
Remember that guy a while back insisting that he had insider information that there was legal action (specifically, the lawsuit) that took place, and that it was rather ugly?
He was right...
EDIT: This was already brought up previously in this thread... namely, 4 posts above!
-
He sounds pretty broken to me.
-
I didn't read all ten or so pages so far...but I went over to MP's forum to see what Mike had to say about all this, and Wey bouncing on him tells me more than anything anyone in the band could ever say. And I feel like I've given him the benefit of the doubt on every thread I've ever posted in here or there. Wey...I think...and it's purely my opinion here...over-policed that forum, and went above and beyond to support and shelter Mike. Him walking...that right there is the point where I figure something isn't cool on a whole other level. I saw what he posted...and I'm more shocked he quit Mike than Mike quitting DT.
I mean...I didn't like it over there. And I certainly didn't care for how I had to be ultra-careful, but I figured Wey was a stand-up guy for who he needed to be a stand-up guy for...and I joined over here. I really feel for the guy. He put in a ton of time. I'm not completely sure what set it off. If it was that he wasn't aware before the news dropped ONLY...or if this was the culmination of several factors, but as I said, Wey bolting speaks volumes to me.
Sorry about this Wey...if you see this. Really.
What did Wey say to Mike?
https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2710450.aspx
Unless I'm mistaken...and if so I apologize...this is his post as re-posted. If I'm wrong...the general talk over there is that Wey quit. And that's the point behind my post. It's not so much what he said...but if he left...that says a lot.
So wait... is Wey mad at MP for the suing thing, or is he just fed up with trying to handle all the forum bs that comes with it?
-
Also I love how he pretends to be this positive and happy person. But he obviously not. He seems like a pretty miserable human being.
How in the world would you know that?
-
So basically - if people agree with you suing your old band that's fine. Actual Dream theater fans don't count.
Now you're just putting words in his mouth.
-
Dammit, the one day I don't check on DTF or MP's forum and all this goes down. Guess I have a lot of reading to do.
-
New MP post on Facebook: "I appreciate all of the POSITIVE posts of love & support today...YOU are the reason I do this...the rest can spread their poison elsewhere."
So basically - if people agree with you suing your old band that's fine. Actual Dream theater fans don't count.
I think there are very few "MP fans", the majority of them are DT fans who kind of still hung on to him to post "go back 2 dt" and "come to Chile" on his Facebook over and over. This lawsuit is going to change things a bit probably.
-
Waiting
In the calm of desolation
Wanting to break
From this circle of confusion
Sleeping
In the depths of isolation
Trying to wake
From this daydream of illusion
oh btw hello everyone!!! ;D
-
Jordan Rudess from Fb.
What gives one the wings to fly, is the ability and desire to focus on what truly inspires you
-
Wey is back. He apologized. Things are getting back to normal. False alarm.
-
DT doesn't want him back. Avenged didn't want him, now he sues DT and makes little digs and comments all over.
I know who I'd (not) want if I was in a band and looking for a really, really good high profile drummer. Unfortunately he's digging a hole that he can't climb out of with the 10 ft. pole no one will touch him with.
SOLUTION FOR MIKE. APPOLOGIZE! You'd be surprised how many people will accept it if you actually do it and MEAN IT.
It's going to take some real time for this to go away, but everybody has done those same kinds of stupid things themselves (I know I do all the time) so I think our respect level could at least flatten out and stop the dive for now if some effort were made at righting the sinking ship. The SS Portnoy has hit the iceberg and is taking on water. People are bailing out over at SS Portnoy and unless the leak gets plugged it's going to get pretty cold pretty quick.
When I think of what the Band has had to really deal with behind the scenes and can still put out such a fantastic album, I just have to say WOW. That had to be really hard to concentrate and perform at that level through all of that major BS. And the Genie knew what was going on and had to get caught between rabid fans as well.
I think the next words out of MP's mouth need to be conciliatory and then zip the lip for good on the matter.
-
Jordan Rudess from Fb.
What gives one the wings to fly, is the ability and desire to focus on what truly inspires you
Damn that's an amazing quote.
-
We're at ban #1 for the thread. I suggest in the future people report things as opposed to derailing the topic.
-
From Derek Sherinian's twitter:
@MikePortnoy Like the great Reverend Rodney King once said...."Can't we all just get along???" :)
-
Black Country Communion > > > > Adrenaline Mob.
-
I know he really couldn't ever speak to what was going on, but there's still one thing that bugs me:
The babe-of-the-woods routine about why the other guys either wouldn't talk to him, or would do so only thought lawyers, WHEN HE'S SUING THEM!!!!!! That is SERIOUSLY disingenuous, manipulative and completely playing the fans.
If you know why, but can't say it, just don't say anything...don't just start playing the victim.
On another note, I pointed out that JP's wording in the interview last month sounded like it was designed to steer away from the lawsuit topic, but without actually lying (like what one would say under an NDA), I was dead-on. I don't mean this in an "I told you so" way...it think it's more validating that I've developed at least a little legal intuition from being married to an attorney.
-
Wow :tdwn
-
After reading the threads that have been posted since earlier today when I resigned my position as moderator here, and seeing the direction things are going, I need to clear this up before it gets more out of hand than it already is.
Mike has known me now for the better part of 11 years, and during that time, he's come to value my opinion on matters regarding the rules of this site and how they are enforced. We have a trust in place. In that regard, he also knows like many of you, that I have a low tolerance for bullshit, and I hate being lied to.
So today when I saw the Blabbermouth article and the PDF regarding the lawsuit, I like many of you, jumped to a concussion that the entire truth was blurred. As Mike trusts me, I trust him as well and trust that he would not lie to me about things. Especially when those things usually involve me sitting in front of the computer for endless hours every day trying to keep his internet home free of messes and negativity every time he posts, says something in an interview, or tweets.
Now, while some of you may think I have the "inside scoop" on everything going on between DT and MP, that is the farthest thing from the truth. Yes, I work(ed) for MP, and yes I am also an employee of Dream Theater as a contracted internet consultant and manager of a few of their internet properties. However, in regards to all the legal actions taking place, neither party has been at liberty to discuss anything involved in the case with me as I am not directly involved and honestly I won't impose on friendships to ask. I, like you all, only know of rumors and speculations and what has been whispered in dark corners of the internet.
Now, being that I am (was) the one responsible for having to spend my time cleaning up the mess, you can understand my displeasure at the revealing of the information that came to light today and the ensuing mess that is still continuing. I also felt that the faith I had in MP to be as truthful with the fans as he has always been in the past wasn't as concrete as I had envisioned.
I only do (did) this job for as long as I did because I respected MP as both a person and a friend. Over the years I have seen him do countless selfless things for his fans. One thing in particular always comes to mind, he spent hours digging through his basement one night to find an original 1996 ACOS Home For The Holidaze shirt for a fan who had been wearing one the night of The Station fire and had had to have the shirt surgically removed from his skin. So you can imagine my feelings of betrayal when I saw this lawsuit information and jumped to the conclusion that Mike had been lying to all of us fans for the last 6 months. I don't like liars, I don't like feeling stabbed in the back as either a friend or a fan, and that is how I felt, plain and simple.
I went so far as lashing out and being quite snarky to Mike in my resignation letter. So much so that I got a call from Marlene after he sent it to her.
Now Marlene can't go into details about the lawsuit, I respect that. That is something that could cost her and Mike hundreds of thousands of dollars and a lawsuit. As a friend, I do not want to see that happen. I have a lot of trust in Marlene, and when she tells me that I'm wrong about judging Mike this way, I can tell from the sincerity in her voice that she's not just standing up for Mike but that she's being honest. I have to admit I was wrong in my feelings that Mike had betrayed my trust and the trust of the fans. My quitting was not intended to do further damage to Mike, and sadly, that is how most of you have taken it as I was rather blunt with my wording. Those of you who know me well know that that is how I am. I don't pull punches, but I will be the first to admit I was wrong. I was wrong (DebraKadaba is currently calling the Guiness Book Of World Records to get them to put it in writing.)
We will never know the full details of the lawsuit, we aren't entitled to know. Mike doesn't deserve the crap he gets around the internet. I know, I clean the majority of it up here and see it everywhere else. He's a good guy, and a great friend, and any single one of you, having the feeling that a friend lied to you would not sit well. That is where I was coming from with my resignation. That thread was closed and I understand why. It was doing more damage to Mike than the actual Blabbermouth article. But in hindsight and after talking to Marlene, I was wrong in my judgement of the situation, and not knowing the facts, did what the rest of you are currently doing.
Let's put an end to this for all parties involved. No one, not Mike, not Dream Theater, is benefiting from it.
Look, I know you post here, but I'm sorry. I can't get on board with any of this.
Maybe there's a secret side to the story I still don't know about, which is always possible. Maybe the members of DT are in fact enormous assholes and are threatening a disproportionately reactive counter-suit. If MP is to be believed (if that's even possible), DT lawyered up before he did. The whole story has yet to be told (although I have to believe Rich Wilson is going bonkers).
But if what we know about the situation is accurate, I don't know what you're seeing that I'm not. I can read a court document. Mike Portnoy sued DT to gain control over their name. In no way can I respect this. He flat out said it wasn't happening when it was. He tried to make it look like DT was blowing him off when he's the one that filed a lawsuit. At some point, no matter what anyone says, actions speak far louder than words, and MP's actions are especially clear.
I know MP is your friend. I know that, like all people, MP thinks he's the good guy. I thought the ACOS tour story was very touching. But as someone who can affirmatively say I used to be a fan, I think MP needs to get his fucking act together.
You mentioned, in his defense, that his family was in danger of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars? What about MP trying to destroy DT's career? What fact we aren't aware of makes his case even remotely sympathetic?
-
Wey is back. He apologized. Things are getting back to normal. False alarm.
That's lame, because he had nothing to apologize for.
EDIT: I hadn't read the apology, still, he's not the one everyone wants an apology from.
-
Agree that Wey should not have apologized for anything he said. I think he had every right to feel a bit fed up with MP.
-
I know he really couldn't ever speak to what was going on, but there's still one thing that bugs me:
The babe-of-the-woods routine about why the other guys either wouldn't talk to him, or would do so only thought lawyers, WHEN HE'S SUING THEM!!!!!! That is SERIOUSLY disingenuous, manipulative and completely playing the fans.
If you know why, but can't say it, just don't say anything...don't just start playing the victim.
Yup.
Honestly, there's not much crap out there that I wouldn't expect MP to pull now.
It's funny how yesterday all this stuff was rampant speculation that few of us really believed Mike would really do. And now... heh. Talk about completely losing faith in someone's character!
-
From Derek Sherinian's twitter:
@MikePortnoy Like the great Reverend Rodney King once said...."Can't we all just get along???" :)
" @DerekSherinian You're on very thin ice, soon you'll be falling into infinity. I'll see you in Court too. Eat my ass and balls ( and subpoena ) "
-
Wey is back. He apologized. Things are getting back to normal. False alarm.
I do not believe he is back, just clearing the air. But would it not be a conflict of interest if the same person is moderating Mike's forum and the new DT site forum at the same time? And especially in view of the current acrimony? I do. Moderate one or the other, but certainly not both.
-
:( This is absolutely awful, I was such a stark defender of Mike Portnoy as well. I can understand where he coming from but that just makes it worse because the band has evolved into so much more than just him. This is a disastrous way to betray his life-long friends. He's making a mistake and needs to let this go.
-
From Derek Sherinian's twitter:
@MikePortnoy Like the great Reverend Rodney King once said...."Can't we all just get along???" :)
" @DerekSherinian You're on very thin ice, soon you'll be falling into infinity. I'll see you in Court too. Eat my ass and balls ( and subpoena ) "
That can't be real. Link plz.
-
From Derek Sherinian's twitter:
@MikePortnoy Like the great Reverend Rodney King once said...."Can't we all just get along???" :)
" @DerekSherinian You're on very thin ice, soon you'll be falling into infinity. I'll see you in Court too. Eat my ass and balls ( and subpoena ) "
That can't be real. Link plz.
Haha. It's just a joke. Trying to lighten the mood somewhat. :)
p.s. MP can't possibly win. You can't quit a band voluntarily and then expect to sue them. He hasn't got a hope.
-
Well said, ReaP. :tup :tup
There is simply no defense for him leaving the band and then trying to block them from using the band name. Had they kicked him out, it would be a completely different story, but they didn't. He even said this in his farewell message:
I do not want to stand in their way...so I have decided to sacrifice myself and simply leave the band so as to not hold them back against their wishes....
I guess that was just more bull shit from him.
-
We've reached our 2nd ban of the day due to this thread, please don't let more come.
-
Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
>:( >:(
-
So far, he could be an excellent Prime minister here in Italy...
-
You know, there's so much I could say, but I'll leave it at one line.
As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
-
Indeed.
-
I took some more time to read the thread after my initial shock but now I'm a bit more level-headed about the situation so I'm going to reserve any further judgement until we get some real clarification from particularly Portnoy if he chooses to elaborate on the situation since I'm sure he will be asked. Things like this are hardly as black and white as they initially appear.
-
Self confessed control freak doesn't get what he wants. It's a shock to the system. He assumes band will just give up their jobs and wait if he takes a break. They don't. He quits. They carry on. He tries to sue band for carrying on?
-
Mike Portnoy raises a child.
Mike Portnoy gives the child away to a new mommy.
Mike Portnoy sues the child.
What.
This shit really made me laugh!
-
Self confessed control freak doesn't get what he wants. It's a shock to the system. He assumes band will just give up their jobs and wait if he takes a break. They don't. He quits. They carry on. He tries to sue band for carrying on?
I'll be straightforward and honest, I'm pretty certain everyone is AT LEAST disappointed with what has been revealed and his behaviour, but your obsessive attempts at bashing him in any way possible is seriously getting on my nerves. It's not constructive, it's not useful, it doesn't contribute anything. You hate him, cool, you've demonstrated that about 50 times the past week. It's enough, really.
-
What a silly mess! Who would've ever thought Portnoy would have left the band and made Kevin leaving the band look good. This is just a shame that it had to happen to a band that always had such a prestige with the name. Now it's starting to look like an episode of Maury or judge Joe Brown.
-
Something else I don't understand.
There was a 100% chance this lawsuit would eventually be uncovered. It's a matter of public record. Clearly, MP did not anticipate the story blowing up today.
But what was his endgame. Assuming he knew it would come out, under what circumstances did he anticipate the internet finding out about it?
I took some more time to read the thread after my initial shock but now I'm a bit more level-headed about the situation so I'm going to reserve any further judgement until we get some real clarification from particularly Portnoy if he chooses to elaborate on the situation since I'm sure he will be asked. Things like this are hardly as black and white as they initially appear.
Here's what the court document says (I'm leaving the addresses out - obviously):
MIKE PORTNOY,
Plainnff,
-against-
JOHN PETRUCCI, JOHN MYUNG, JAMES
LaBRIE, JORDAN RUDESS, YTSE JAMS,
INC. and INFINITIY TOURS, INC. ,
TO THE ABOVE NAMED DEFENDANTS:
YOU ARE HEREBY SUMMONED to serve a notice of appearance on the
plaintift's attorneys within 20 days after service of this summons, exclusive of the day of service
(or within 30 days after service is complete if this summons is not personally delivered to you
within thc State of New York); and in case of your failure to appear, judgment will be taken
against you by default for the relief demanded below.
Dated: New York, New York
April 19, 2011
NOTICE
The nature of the action is:
Plaintiff is one of the founding members of a rock band (the "Band" ) and one of the
founding and current shareholders of the defendant corporations. Defendants Petrucci and
Myung are the other founding members of the Band and thc other founding and current
shareholders of the defendant corporations. The individual defendants claim to be the current
members of the Band.
In brcach of contract and breach of fiduciary duty, defendants:
(1) Have wrongfully excluded plaintiff from the Band;
(2) Are wrongfully using the name of the Band in connection with thc individual
defendants' recording of an album, without the participation or consent of plaintiff;
and
(3) Are wrongfully using the name of the Band in connection with the promotion of live
performances by the individual defendants, without the participation or consent of
plainnff.
The relief sought is:
l. A judicial declarahon that defendants may not use the name of the Band
(including in connecnon with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintiff s consent;
2. An injunction restraining defendants from using the name of the Band
(including in connection with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintifF s consent; and
3. An awatd of damages in an amount to be determined at trial.
Upon your failure to timely appear, judgment will be taken against you by
default for the declaratory and injunctive relief sought herein, an amount of damages to be
determined (together with interest thereon), and the costs and disbursements of this action.
I know that we don't know everything, but I don't see where the ambiguity here is. Not only is it scummy to sue the band for their name, which we know is happening because it's public record, but I feel particularly slighted by the fact he made every effort to say and indicate the lawsuit wasn't happening when it in fact was.
-
Hey Bosk - can i used the term "legal moves" now?
-
Well... this looks pretty straightforward indeed.
-
What a silly mess! Who would've ever thought Portnoy would have left the band and made Kevin leaving the band look good. This is just a shame that it had to happen to a band that always had such a prestige with the name. Now it's starting to look like an episode of Maury or judge Joe Brown.
I had the best/worst idea of all time. Sequel to The Spirit Carries On? Oh hell yes, and I even have a title:
The Great Debate
-
(1) Have wrongfully excluded plaintiff from the Band;
Nope.
-
What a silly mess! Who would've ever thought Portnoy would have left the band and made Kevin leaving the band look good. This is just a shame that it had to happen to a band that always had such a prestige with the name. Now it's starting to look like an episode of Maury or judge Joe Brown.
I had the best/worst idea of all time. Sequel to The Spirit Carries On? Oh hell yes, and I even have a title:
The Great Debate
The Dream Carries On.
-
So Wey is back? Disappointing. His leaving was actually the most interesting development of all. Nothing else was really surprising.
-
Oh Mike :facepalm:
-
So Wey is back? Disappointing. His leaving was actually the most interesting development of all. Nothing else was really surprising.
His statement was all in PAST tense. I think he has still quit but is just clearing things up.
-
So Wey is back? Disappointing. His leaving was actually the most interesting development of all. Nothing else was really surprising.
I don't know that he is...he was still talking as though him being the admin was something in the past.
CORRECTION: He has "moderator" under his name again.
-
Looks like he's not trying to take the name away, just wants to retain control over it.
Seems odd.
-
I know that we don't know everything, but I don't see where the ambiguity here is. Not only is it scummy to sue the band for their name, which we know is happening because it's public record, but I feel particularly slighted by the fact he made every effort to say and indicate the lawsuit wasn't happening when it in fact was.
Thanks for the information there, what's on the order is very clear-cut I agree but I'm just wondering about the state of affairs now as if Mike is still keeping this up since it's from a few months ago, according to his messages on his fan page however, it seems like it's still going on. Guess all that's left for us is to wait it out and see how everything unfolds.
-
After reading the summons a bunch of times, I think I finally understand what MP's legal argument is, however flimsy:
Basically, I think he's claiming that while he might have left the band in a musical sense, he did not resign from either of the corporations the band relies on to conduct its business. Because the corporations are conducting the band's business without his input even though he's a member, they are unjustly excluding him.
I know less than nothing about how this kind of law works, but isn't 'I'm leaving Dream Theater' a pretty all-inclusive statement? Especially in the context of everything else in the letter about not getting in their way.
Actually, that's a pretty interesting sub-plot of all this. MP's farewell to DT letter has become one of the most important things he ever wrote, given that it's the only written record of his separation from the band that I'm aware of.
Looks like he's not trying to take the name away, just wants to retain control over it.
Seems odd.
Functionally, these are both the same thing. If DT had to get permission to use the name "Dream Theater" from Portnoy, their careers would be in very serious jeopardy.
-
a.) How can you possibly hope to control a band when YOU QUIT.
b.) If the case was filed back in April, surely the band couldn't have been able to record and release under the name Dream Theater and go on tour ?
-
Looks like he's not trying to take the name away, just wants to retain control over it.
Seems odd.
He may want them to have to acknowledge permission to use the name so that if any payment issues came up in the future he'd have additional legal recourse. I'm only guessing, but Lawyers try to get all those kinds of things thrown together so there's something to negotiate in a settlement. Later on they'll give up the claim in exchange for getting what they want on royalties or something like that. Again just speculating.
-
b.) If the case was filed back in April, surely the band couldn't have been able to record and release under the name Dream Theater and go on tour ?
Unless an injunction was issued against the band, there's nothing stopping them.
In fact, I wonder if doing so may have benefited them (Possession is 9/10...)
-
a.) How can you possibly hope to control a band when YOU QUIT.
b.) If the case was filed back in April, surely the band couldn't have been able to record and release under the name Dream Theater and go on tour ?
Filing a suit doesn't do diddly to stop them from using the name as they see fit. That will only happen with a preliminary injunction (which obviously was not granted) or the resolution of the case being in MP's favor. They can continue to spam the name to death until then and there is nothing he can do about it but wait for the court date.
Lawsuits take a LONG time for anything to happen. Usually these things will take years to settle especially if they force it all the way to court and don't settle in mediation.
-
Hey Bosk - can i used the term "legal moves" now?
Yes.
a.) How can you possibly hope to control a band when YOU QUIT.
b.) If the case was filed back in April, surely the band couldn't have been able to record and release under the name Dream Theater and go on tour ?
a) Because he is an owner.
b) Sure they could. The fact that a lawsuit has been filed doesn't prevent them from doing anything if the lawsuit hasn't been decided yet.
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
-
DT should try and get another album out in the interim if that is the case ;D
2013 " You are hereby denied the rights to the name Dream Theater "
:biggrin: Don't care - released two albums already !!
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
I would assume that he only quit superficially. Since it's a corporation, he'd have to sign off control to actually quit, which he may not have ever done. Saying "I quit" might not be enough. Hell, this is too crazy, remember when bands just played music together?
-
[/quote]
Functionally, these are both the same thing. If DT had to get permission to use the name "Dream Theater" from Portnoy, their careers would be in very serious jeopardy.
[/quote]
How would their careers be in serious jeopardy? They could just change their name. We all know who they are and would still buy their records. Who cares about their name, it's what they do that we love.
When Andeson, Bruford,Wakeman and Howe couldn't use Yes's name they called themselves............. Didn't hurt them at all.
4XJ&M. There a new name
-
Gah. I hope that if it reaches court - it goes crushingly in favour of the band.
Embarrassingly so.
:facepalm:
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
I would assume that he only quit superficially. Since it's a corporation, he'd have to sign off control to actually quit, which he may not have ever done. Saying "I quit" might not be enough. Hell, this is too crazy, remember when bands just played music together?
Heh.
Isn't a letter publicly announcing that you're leaving the band pretty much quitting? My mind would be blown, in the worst way possible, if a judge gave him any real control of the name.
-
I vote for Daydream Cinema.
Or something as close to Dream Theater as they possibly can within the law. Juuuust close enough to annoy a certain someone :biggrin:
-
Dream Arena ?
:)
-
Also, JP's statement in that German interview became a lot more important. If I remember correctly, he said the band's name belonged to them, period. I guess they won't be backing down.
-
I just got back from work and haven't read the 12+ pages of discussion of this topic, so sorry if this has been discussed. After having a look at the NY's Supreme Court's website, it looks like Mike has not served the summons to the DT members. Therefore, if he has not served the summons the lawsuit will not develop until he has done so (it can even be dismissed if he doesn't serve summons within the timeframe allowed by NY's law).
Anyways....notwithstanding the fact that I love DT and I hate what Portnoy is doing right now, I'm thinking that legally speaking, Mike could still have the law by his side in some aspects. I'm not an entertainment law attorney but I'm guessing that when a founder member of a band says "i'm quitting the band", he is not relinquishing any rights that he might have on the band's copyrights and trademarks. For that he would have to expressly execute documents and stuff like that.
I'm guessing that a settlement will be the only solution to this case....unless Mike wants blood and nothing else...
I'm drunk right now..sorry for any typos
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
I would assume that he only quit superficially. Since it's a corporation, he'd have to sign off control to actually quit, which he may not have ever done. Saying "I quit" might not be enough. Hell, this is too crazy, remember when bands just played music together?
That resignation letter he dropped when he left is going to hurt his chances in court imo. Stuff like that causes a lot of headaches once you get into the later stages of the case. He even said he would allow the members to continue on without him and not stand in their way to continue the band Dream Theater without him, and that he needed the break and was leaving of his own free will. You'd be amazed of the things people can bring up to use against you in civil lawsuits. Things he said a decade ago may come up to bite him in the rear.
The DT camp has been very smart keeping their mouth shut since this allows MPs camp very little ammunition to use against them. Lawyers really are a special breed and can twist things against you about like how blabbermouth does to make headlines and stir the pot. :lol
-
So he quit superficially, but never rescinded his share of the name, and is now claiming to have been unjustly excluded because he never rescinded legal control.
So he was lying when he said all that stuff about everyone moving on, because if he meant it, he would have sold his share. Apparently his intent was to hamstring them instead.
Not just is that slimy...it's calculated.
-
Also, JP's statement in that German interview became a lot more important. If I remember correctly, he said the band's name belonged to them, period. I guess they won't be backing down.
Seem to remember something about " when a member leaves - he relinquishes all rights ". Dunno where I read that though. Might have been hypothesis. But that sounds feasible.
-
Petrucci and Mangini are of Italian background right?
I'm sure this can be settled "out of court".
-
So he quit superficially, but never rescinded his share of the name, and is now claiming to have been unjustly excluded because he never rescinded legal control.
So he was lying when he said all that stuff about everyone moving on, because if he meant it, he would have sold his share. Apparently his intent was to hamstring them instead.
Not just is that slimy...it's calculated.
Can we be sure about that? Maybe at the time he really thought he was done, and only after stewing for a few months did he decide to file the suit. The timing is really strange.
Another question - If we buy that MP never resigned from the corporate entities that comprise DT, then why couldn't he sue to stop the band from doing everything it does?
-
Petrucci and Mangini are of Italian background right?
I'm sure this can be settled "out of court".
Well... you do remember how John Petrucci looked during the Hall of Fame ceremony right? :hat
-
I'm gonna pick this up in the morning :p
Night all ! :)
-
Something else I don't understand.
There was a 100% chance this lawsuit would eventually be uncovered. It's a matter of public record. Clearly, MP did not anticipate the story blowing up today.
But what was his endgame. Assuming he knew it would come out, under what circumstances did he anticipate the internet finding out about it?
I took some more time to read the thread after my initial shock but now I'm a bit more level-headed about the situation so I'm going to reserve any further judgement until we get some real clarification from particularly Portnoy if he chooses to elaborate on the situation since I'm sure he will be asked. Things like this are hardly as black and white as they initially appear.
Here's what the court document says (I'm leaving the addresses out - obviously):
MIKE PORTNOY,
Plainnff,
-against-
JOHN PETRUCCI, JOHN MYUNG, JAMES
LaBRIE, JORDAN RUDESS, YTSE JAMS,
INC. and INFINITIY TOURS, INC. ,
TO THE ABOVE NAMED DEFENDANTS:
YOU ARE HEREBY SUMMONED to serve a notice of appearance on the
plaintift's attorneys within 20 days after service of this summons, exclusive of the day of service
(or within 30 days after service is complete if this summons is not personally delivered to you
within thc State of New York); and in case of your failure to appear, judgment will be taken
against you by default for the relief demanded below.
Dated: New York, New York
April 19, 2011
NOTICE
The nature of the action is:
Plaintiff is one of the founding members of a rock band (the "Band" ) and one of the
founding and current shareholders of the defendant corporations. Defendants Petrucci and
Myung are the other founding members of the Band and thc other founding and current
shareholders of the defendant corporations. The individual defendants claim to be the current
members of the Band.
In brcach of contract and breach of fiduciary duty, defendants:
(1) Have wrongfully excluded plaintiff from the Band;
(2) Are wrongfully using the name of the Band in connection with thc individual
defendants' recording of an album, without the participation or consent of plaintiff;
and
(3) Are wrongfully using the name of the Band in connection with the promotion of live
performances by the individual defendants, without the participation or consent of
plainnff.
The relief sought is:
l. A judicial declarahon that defendants may not use the name of the Band
(including in connecnon with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintiff s consent;
2. An injunction restraining defendants from using the name of the Band
(including in connection with the making of recordings and the promotion of live performances)
without plaintifF s consent; and
3. An awatd of damages in an amount to be determined at trial.
Upon your failure to timely appear, judgment will be taken against you by
default for the declaratory and injunctive relief sought herein, an amount of damages to be
determined (together with interest thereon), and the costs and disbursements of this action.
I know that we don't know everything, but I don't see where the ambiguity here is. Not only is it scummy to sue the band for their name, which we know is happening because it's public record, but I feel particularly slighted by the fact he made every effort to say and indicate the lawsuit wasn't happening when it in fact was.
Wow I really hope that was transcribed and the actual summons doesn't have that many typos!
The more I read of this thread the more amazed I am that everyone seems to think they know everything based off what they read in the press. Not the poster I've quoted here, but quite a lot of people in this thread. I'm not saying I know either, but for what it's worth I'm in law school/currently taking entertainment law so I'm just having a little fun with an alternative perspective here.
From a reading of this and considering when it was filed, it seems pretty straightforward. Like any band or business that splits up, acrimonious or not, MP and DT must have a lot of legal issues and formalities to clear up. I remember the way DT do their bootlegs was cited as one example early on, but there must be tons of loose ends re: use of the name, entities they entered into together, future earnings, etc.
I'm only speculating obviously, but when MP learned that DT were choosing to record an album and go on tour as "Dream Theater" before working things out legally with him, it's possible he was just advised to file (and not serve) this in order to protect his legal/future interests. These types of things have to be settled regardless. If JP is only contacting MP through his attorney, why is anybody shocked that they're choosing to do this kind of stuff formally and in court? It doesn't mean they're at war with each other, it's just business and they're all just protecting themselves. They're all family men and these issues can involve hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.
Not every lawsuit needs to be read as a war between parties. Ozzy and Tony Iommi were just in a lawsuit against each other last year over legal rights to the name "Black Sabbath" and they're currently working together despite sniping in the press over it. MP even said he's been in recent contact with Jordan.
Bottom line - it's unfortunate this news got out because it's nothing new to the band and only serves to rile everyone up.
-
So he quit superficially, but never rescinded his share of the name, and is now claiming to have been unjustly excluded because he never rescinded legal control.
So he was lying when he said all that stuff about everyone moving on, because if he meant it, he would have sold his share. Apparently his intent was to hamstring them instead.
Not just is that slimy...it's calculated.
Can we be sure about that? Maybe at the time he really thought he was done, and only after stewing for a few months did he decide to file the suit. The timing is really strange.
Maybe, but I can't imagine "forgetting" that his name is on the legal documents and that he has rights with respect to existing songs and the name.
-
Dream Arena ?
:)
Dream Theatre? ;D
-
I'm not an entertainment law attorney but I'm guessing that when a founder member of a band says "i'm quitting the band", he is not relinquishing any rights that he might have on the band's copyrights and trademarks. For that he would have to expressly execute documents and stuff like that.
Why would 'founder' matter in this situation? You've got a band with five full-time members, all of which at least give the impression of being equals. Sure MP did more promos and interviews, etc, but that was voluntary. It wasn't "MP and the Dream Theater's."
Obviously there may be legal things we don't know about which would change things, but that's speaking based on the current info we have.
-
Oh. Obviously I read too much into the post I read over at MP's forum. Wey is not...in fact...quitting. Or he decided not to quit. So I guess I can't use that as a gauge as to how people "close" to Mike feel about all this. Well, that was weird. I could swear there was only one way to read all that...but obviously, there are several and I chose the wrong one. Last post about this guy...right here. Last post with this guy's name or with him as a subject.
I don't think Mike's the scum-of-the-earth because of all this. I don't know that he's been deceptive on purpose. It seems that way, but what do I know? All bands do this? I'm hearing that? All bands that have people split do this? Then I guess they all do it then. He's still St. Mike. Hey...my life is less than interesting, so I come here. Read a few things. Post a thing. I don't want anyone to feel bad. He's a drummer. He's under know legal obligation to be a swell guy. I stuck up for him last week. Sat right here and said I'd find it hard to be cool to people that have said what James and Jordan had said in recent interviews. Maybe I was wrong. It doesn't matter. Mike doesn't care what I think.
Everyone goes off in every direction. I just read a post over there where some guy tells Wey he's the "best guy he's encountered on the internet." Then he says he doesn't know him real good. I can't believe anyone who matters reads what we put out there anyway. It's different over on MP's forum I guess. I can see that. Anyway. This rant is done. Good luck Mike, MP forum, and everyone else associated with all that. I'm done with this subject.
-
I'm not an entertainment law attorney but I'm guessing that when a founder member of a band says "i'm quitting the band", he is not relinquishing any rights that he might have on the band's copyrights and trademarks. For that he would have to expressly execute documents and stuff like that.
Why would 'founder' matter in this situation? You've got a band with five full-time members, all of which at least give the impression of being equals. Sure MP did more promos and interviews, etc, but that was voluntary. It wasn't "MP and the Dream Theater's."
Obviously there may be legal things we don't know about which would change things, but that's speaking based on the current info we have.
Because since he was a founder, he came up (along with Petrucci and Myung) with the Dream Theater name (trademark) and concept.
-
I'm not an entertainment law attorney but I'm guessing that when a founder member of a band says "i'm quitting the band", he is not relinquishing any rights that he might have on the band's copyrights and trademarks. For that he would have to expressly execute documents and stuff like that.
Why would 'founder' matter in this situation? You've got a band with five full-time members, all of which at least give the impression of being equals. Sure MP did more promos and interviews, etc, but that was voluntary. It wasn't "MP and the Dream Theater's."
Obviously there may be legal things we don't know about which would change things, but that's speaking based on the current info we have.
Because since he was a founder, he came up (along with Petrucci and Myung) with the Dream Theater name (trademark) and concept.
So it's just about the words 'Dream Theater'? If JP, JM, JR, JLB, and MM release an album and call themselves anything else MP loses any argument?
Not that I think he's got much argument (then again, I'm not well-versed in legal matters), but if JM left the band instead and sued I feel like they would've just laughed at him.
-
Dick move, Mike...
That's all I'm gonna say.
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
Think of the band as a company, because that's what it is. (specifically, Ytse Jams, Inc.) Because it is a small company, people wear multiple hats within the company. Shareholders own the stock, which means they own the company. And the company owns the assets of the band, whether it be the name, the other intellectual property, etc. So as a shareholder, Mike owns stock in the company, which in turn owns the assets of the band. So assuming the company is owned in equal amounts by the bandmembers and no one else, Mike owns 20% of everything.
As an officer and director, Mike is an employee of the company. So he is also wearing the employee hat. The law says that officers and directors have to run the company for the benefit of the owners. So, one person can't just take over and run the company in a way that privately benefits him and screws over the other owners (unless of course they consent and give him control).
By quitting, it's the same as if you quit your job. You are out. You no longer have a job. You no longer have any rights as an employee. But as an owner, he still owns his stock and, by extension, his share of the assets of the company. As such, he has the ability to take steps to make the company look out for his rights, including filing a lawsuit if he thinks the stuff he owns isn't being taken care of or he isn't getting paid what he deserves when he tries to sell it back to the company. Not saying he is right, but those are his legal rights.
Anyway, that's a really basic overview. Hope it helps.
-
cough. ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/RRvlw.png)
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
*snip*
So you think he has a case?
-
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
Think of the band as a company, because that's what it is. (specifically, Ytse Jams, Inc.) Because it is a small company, people wear multiple hats within the company. Shareholders own the stock, which means they own the company. And the company owns the assets of the band, whether it be the name, the other intellectual property, etc. So as a shareholder, Mike owns stock in the company, which in turn owns the assets of the band. So assuming the company is owned in equal amounts by the bandmembers and no one else, Mike owns 20% of everything.
As an officer and director, Mike is an employee of the company. So he is also wearing the employee hat. The law says that officers and directors have to run the company for the benefit of the owners. So, one person can't just take over and run the company in a way that privately benefits him and screws over the other owners (unless of course they consent and give him control).
By quitting, it's the same as if you quit your job. You are out. You no longer have a job. You no longer have any rights as an employee. But as an owner, he still owns his stock and, by extension, his share of the assets of the company. As such, he has the ability to take steps to make the company look out for his rights, including filing a lawsuit if he thinks the stuff he owns isn't being taken care of or he isn't getting paid what he deserves when he tries to sell it back to the company. Not saying he is right, but those are his legal rights.
Anyway, that's a really basic overview. Hope it helps.
Exceptional explanation. Thank you :)
-
cough. ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/RRvlw.png)
Flawless Victory
-
Let's use the marriage analogy again....
MP cheats on wife, wife moves on and starts banging rich doctor with big pecker, MP wants wife back, wife says go suck an egg, MP sue's for half the house. MP loses and sucks the egg. :loser:
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
Think of the band as a company, because that's what it is. (specifically, Ytse Jams, Inc.) Because it is a small company, people wear multiple hats within the company. Shareholders own the stock, which means they own the company. And the company owns the assets of the band, whether it be the name, the other intellectual property, etc. So as a shareholder, Mike owns stock in the company, which in turn owns the assets of the band. So assuming the company is owned in equal amounts by the bandmembers and no one else, Mike owns 20% of everything.
As an officer and director, Mike is an employee of the company. So he is also wearing the employee hat. The law says that officers and directors have to run the company for the benefit of the owners. So, one person can't just take over and run the company in a way that privately benefits him and screws over the other owners (unless of course they consent and give him control).
By quitting, it's the same as if you quit your job. You are out. You no longer have a job. You no longer have any rights as an employee. But as an owner, he still owns his stock and, by extension, his share of the assets of the company. As such, he has the ability to take steps to make the company look out for his rights, including filing a lawsuit if he thinks the stuff he owns isn't being taken care of or he isn't getting paid what he deserves when he tries to sell it back to the company. Not saying he is right, but those are his legal rights.
Anyway, that's a really basic overview. Hope it helps.
And I believe, as crazy as it sounds, that Mike is still collecting his paycheck as an officer of the corporation. Which begs the question: Is he getting paid more than Mike Mangini to be the "not" drummer of Dream Theater?
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
Think of the band as a company, because that's what it is. (specifically, Ytse Jams, Inc.) Because it is a small company, people wear multiple hats within the company. Shareholders own the stock, which means they own the company. And the company owns the assets of the band, whether it be the name, the other intellectual property, etc. So as a shareholder, Mike owns stock in the company, which in turn owns the assets of the band. So assuming the company is owned in equal amounts by the bandmembers and no one else, Mike owns 20% of everything.
As an officer and director, Mike is an employee of the company. So he is also wearing the employee hat. The law says that officers and directors have to run the company for the benefit of the owners. So, one person can't just take over and run the company in a way that privately benefits him and screws over the other owners (unless of course they consent and give him control).
By quitting, it's the same as if you quit your job. You are out. You no longer have a job. You no longer have any rights as an employee. But as an owner, he still owns his stock and, by extension, his share of the assets of the company. As such, he has the ability to take steps to make the company look out for his rights, including filing a lawsuit if he thinks the stuff he owns isn't being taken care of or he isn't getting paid what he deserves when he tries to sell it back to the company. Not saying he is right, but those are his legal rights.
Anyway, that's a really basic overview. Hope it helps.
Agree 100%. Are you a lawyer? I'm a corporate attorney..your explanation is 100% accurate.
-
cough. ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/RRvlw.png)
:rollin :rollin
-
cough. ;D
*snip*
This thread still hasn't been archived! :omg:
-
Gonna keep this short, but simply put, I'm honestly ashamed of Mike Portnoy. He was my favorite drummer and I thought he was amazing for a long time, and now he's doing this. It's just sad, he has fallen a lot...
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
Think of the band as a company, because that's what it is. (specifically, Ytse Jams, Inc.) Because it is a small company, people wear multiple hats within the company. Shareholders own the stock, which means they own the company. And the company owns the assets of the band, whether it be the name, the other intellectual property, etc. So as a shareholder, Mike owns stock in the company, which in turn owns the assets of the band. So assuming the company is owned in equal amounts by the bandmembers and no one else, Mike owns 20% of everything.
As an officer and director, Mike is an employee of the company. So he is also wearing the employee hat. The law says that officers and directors have to run the company for the benefit of the owners. So, one person can't just take over and run the company in a way that privately benefits him and screws over the other owners (unless of course they consent and give him control).
By quitting, it's the same as if you quit your job. You are out. You no longer have a job. You no longer have any rights as an employee. But as an owner, he still owns his stock and, by extension, his share of the assets of the company. As such, he has the ability to take steps to make the company look out for his rights, including filing a lawsuit if he thinks the stuff he owns isn't being taken care of or he isn't getting paid what he deserves when he tries to sell it back to the company. Not saying he is right, but those are his legal rights.
Anyway, that's a really basic overview. Hope it helps.
Thats a nice synopsis and all, but one would think DTs lawyers would have taken care of these issues before MM was made an official member. I would think that DT's lawyers would hammer out the legalese to give MP royalties on back catalog and also have him relinquish all rights to future monies.
-
Another question for people smarter than me, Why is this just showing up if it's from April? It refers to time frames that have ended by now, so if they did meet why no updates? I assume it's on-going per MP's comments that he can't talk about it. Would this be something that would go on for a while?
-
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
*snip*
Well, okay, but does establishing DT as a small company really have any legal weight? There is no physical "stock" to speak of, right? I obviously trust your explanation due to your credentials, but I'm just challenging Portnoy's case because I have a truly hard time believing the "I basically own stock in what is basically a company, so I basically have stockholders' rights" argument holds water.
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
Think of the band as a company, because that's what it is. (specifically, Ytse Jams, Inc.) Because it is a small company, people wear multiple hats within the company. Shareholders own the stock, which means they own the company. And the company owns the assets of the band, whether it be the name, the other intellectual property, etc. So as a shareholder, Mike owns stock in the company, which in turn owns the assets of the band. So assuming the company is owned in equal amounts by the bandmembers and no one else, Mike owns 20% of everything.
As an officer and director, Mike is an employee of the company. So he is also wearing the employee hat. The law says that officers and directors have to run the company for the benefit of the owners. So, one person can't just take over and run the company in a way that privately benefits him and screws over the other owners (unless of course they consent and give him control).
By quitting, it's the same as if you quit your job. You are out. You no longer have a job. You no longer have any rights as an employee. But as an owner, he still owns his stock and, by extension, his share of the assets of the company. As such, he has the ability to take steps to make the company look out for his rights, including filing a lawsuit if he thinks the stuff he owns isn't being taken care of or he isn't getting paid what he deserves when he tries to sell it back to the company. Not saying he is right, but those are his legal rights.
Anyway, that's a really basic overview. Hope it helps.
Thats a nice synopsis and all, but one would think DTs lawyers would have taken care of these issues before MM was made an official member. I would think that DT's lawyers would hammer out the legalese to give MP royalties on back catalog and also have him relinquish all rights to future monies.
I believe MM is more or less a hired gun for what amounts to a probationary period of time. Same as Jordan when he first joined. Although he is a new member of the band, his legal and financial rights do not extend anywhere close to the existing members. And that will not change for quite some time.
-
Well my statement was more about DT lawyers dotting the i's and crossing the t's. When MP wanted to quit, I would imagine DT's lawyers would draw up all necessary paper work to insure MP couldnt sue in the future. And they may have :)
-
Another question for people smarter than me, Why is this just showing up if it's from April? It refers to time frames that have ended by now, so if they did meet why no updates? I assume it's on-going per MP's comments that he can't talk about it. Would this be something that would go on for a while?
This will definitely take a while if they don't settle before going to court. Sometimes you can be waiting for months just to get a court date, not to mention all the stuff that has to happen BEFORE you get to court like depositions, subpoenas to everyone involved and mediation attempts while each side also builds their cases up.
I'm not lawyer but was involved in a personal lawsuit against a large corporation and trust me these things are slimy and drawn out by nature. You can't be 100% friendly and moral to the other party and still push your case to the max while suing them (I wish I had been slimy because being a stand up person hurt me badly while they were they were quite viscious). I guess that is why lawyers are usually called such bad things is because they have to be ruthless if you want as good of a case as possible.
I could have sworn there was a way famous people could get records of these things suppressed for a while, but looking around on google I can't find anything so maybe not. I'm sure bosk can elaborate.
-
So you think he has a case?
No comment. :biggrin: First off, I don't know N.Y. law. Second, I have no idea what Mike's contract says. But just looking at the claims, and applying my basic knowledge of those areas of the law, it sounds incredibly weak to me. That being said, Mike's lawyer seems to be a heavy hitter, and unless he was doing it as a personal favor to make, probably wouldn't have filed unless he felt he could accomplish something. As pointed out above, it may not be contentious at all, but may possibly just be the necessary process to get things divided up properly. I hate the family law analogies, but I'll use one. Sometimes, people get divorced amicably. But if they've been together for a long time and have a lot of assets, it can still be incredibly tricky to divide everything up fairly. So it may be necessary to have a court involved in dividing everything up even if it isn't contentious. That may be the case here, which is why I hate to jump to conclusions, even though a quick reading of the papers seems to indicate that Mike is being a jerk about it all. He may not be. Or it may just be about leverage (because filing a claim raises the stakes, and increases the "settlement value" of whatever he may be trying to negotiate). There are just so many variables we can't know, that it's almost pointless to guess.
Agree 100%. Are you a lawyer? I'm a corporate attorney..your explanation is 100% accurate.
Yes.
But if you are an attorney, you likely do a lot of work typing documents. And I'm curious as to how you do that if your hand is a dolphin.
:justjen:
Then again, if you have to type everything one-handed, it takes twice as long, which means you generate more billable hours. Okay, never mind. I get it now.
Thats a nice synopsis and all, but one would think DTs lawyers would have taken care of these issues before MM was made an official member. I would think that DT's lawyers would hammer out the legalese to give MP royalties on back catalog and also have him relinquish all rights to future monies.
Nah, that's not an accurate assumption. These things can take months and sometimes years to fully work through. In the mean time, DT has an album to write and a tour to embark on. They can't wait around until all the legal issues are resolved. That takes time, and there's no reason they can't get on with their business while it is being worked out.
-
a) Because he is an owner.
But, since I'm not a lawyer, I don't understand how he can be an owner of a band that he quit.
Good question, and it sometimes doesn't occur to me that not everyone understands how these things work. Here's a quick, really basic overview:
Think of the band as a company, because that's what it is. (specifically, Ytse Jams, Inc.) Because it is a small company, people wear multiple hats within the company. Shareholders own the stock, which means they own the company. And the company owns the assets of the band, whether it be the name, the other intellectual property, etc. So as a shareholder, Mike owns stock in the company, which in turn owns the assets of the band. So assuming the company is owned in equal amounts by the bandmembers and no one else, Mike owns 20% of everything.
As an officer and director, Mike is an employee of the company. So he is also wearing the employee hat. The law says that officers and directors have to run the company for the benefit of the owners. So, one person can't just take over and run the company in a way that privately benefits him and screws over the other owners (unless of course they consent and give him control).
By quitting, it's the same as if you quit your job. You are out. You no longer have a job. You no longer have any rights as an employee. But as an owner, he still owns his stock and, by extension, his share of the assets of the company. As such, he has the ability to take steps to make the company look out for his rights, including filing a lawsuit if he thinks the stuff he owns isn't being taken care of or he isn't getting paid what he deserves when he tries to sell it back to the company. Not saying he is right, but those are his legal rights.
Anyway, that's a really basic overview. Hope it helps.
Well said!
-
Thank you bosk.
-
cough. ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/RRvlw.png)
FUCK! :lol
-
heh. that was my entry on the MSpaint thread. more apropos now, i guess. ;D
-
And I believe, as crazy as it sounds, that Mike is still collecting his paycheck as an officer of the corporation. Which begs the question: Is he getting paid more than Mike Mangini to be the "not" drummer of Dream Theater?
I don't know a lot about these legal issues, but I do know that in Norway (and I'm assuming things work in a quite similar manner in the U.S.), artists earn royalties on record sales which are split 1/3 for the composer, 1/3 for the lyric author, and 1/3 for the artists who plays on each song (or record). For instance, this would mean that JP probably gets by far the most royalties from ADTOEs revenues since he wrote 80% of the lyrics, in addition to being part-composer and artist on all of the songs. Mangini only served as an artist (not composing or writing lyrics), and therefore doesn't get nearly as much (1/3 * 1/5 = 1/15 of the earnings, if it is in fact split like this).
I don't think Portnoy will earn anything from ADTOEs revenues, but he will off course keep his royalty rights for all previous DT material that are still being sold and DT probably still makes a good profit on.
Not 100 % sure here, but I think this is close to how incomes are distributed among band members. Although, it may be (even) more complicated due to naming/brand rights etc.
For touring income, I would think they split the income more evenly among the members that participate on the tour.
-
I think DT will be fine. They definitely have more lawyers than MP. Dream Theater is going to have the full lawyer team of Road Runner Records. One of the benefits to being signed. MP quitting means he is no longer protected under the Road Runner family. DT will not be harmed by this.
MP screwed himself in the eyes of DT fans. If he wins, people will hate him. If he loses, people will still hate him over this.
-
Agree 100%. Are you a lawyer? I'm a corporate attorney..your explanation is 100% accurate.
Yes.
But if you are an attorney, you likely do a lot of work typing documents. And I'm curious as to how you do that if your hand is a dolphin.
:justjen:
Then again, if you have to type everything one-handed, it takes twice as long, which means you generate more billable hours. Okay, never mind. I get it now.
LOL!!
-
I can't lie, after some careful thought on this subject (I have absolutely no idea why I'm thinking carefully about this subject)... I think MP does deserve, after 25 years of helping build the bands popularity and proffesional connections, some residual compensation. No matter what happens as far as lawsuits and settlements, he does deserve some compensation. I think a lawsuit is well within his rights.
I don't appreciate him saying that he isn't standing in the way of the band while simultaneously suing them for the name rights. All he had to say was, "Legal issues need to be settled, and I wish them the best of luck."
Regardless of that, it's really none of my fucking business. I am not a DT fan because of how they split their money or how much money they make. If I gave a shit about how much money a band made I would be the world's biggest Kanye West fan. I'm a fan of DT because I was inspired to pick up a guitar at 12 years old and got this crazy concept to write songs that were 30 minutes long that were unlike anything I had ever heard over the radio. To mix styles and just randomly try out a country blues solo over a distorted jazz riff. I was pitching the idea to some friends on the internet and one of them said, "You mean like Dream Theater or something?" From then on their music inspired me to find the feeling of peace and accomplishment that I could only attain from learning and writing music. I'm 26 now and after 14 years of listening to DT they are the only band that I still musically identify with on every level. That is amazing to me, and that is why it is so hard for me to see a split between them.
Anyway, while that was a bit off topic, I just realized that this is none of my fucking business and therefore I have no interest vested in it. The only interest I have vested in this is to see the band members happy and continue making great music for all of us. Quite frankly, I still would love to see the MP, JP, JR, JM, JLB lineup some day. I look forward to when it happens honestly.
-
Anyway, while that was a bit off topic, I just realized that this is none of my fucking business and therefore I have no interest vested in it. The only interest I have vested in this is to see the band members happy and continue making great music for all of us. Quite frankly, I still would love to see the MP, JP, JR, JM, JLB lineup some day. I look forward to when it happens honestly.
A-fucking-men. Way too much drama around this, and frankly, I'm surprised it was only 2 bans.
-
Anyway, while that was a bit off topic, I just realized that this is none of my fucking business and therefore I have no interest vested in it. The only interest I have vested in this is to see the band members happy and continue making great music for all of us. Quite frankly, I still would love to see the MP, JP, JR, JM, JLB lineup some day. I look forward to when it happens honestly.
A-fucking-men. Way too much drama around this, and frankly, I'm surprised it was only 2 bans.
Eh, no. We're "the fans." Our ex-fearless leader is suing the band for their name. We kinda have a right to be outraged. I get keeping things respectable and all, but Mike Portnoy needs to hear how disappointed his fans are with him over this. Even if he'll just shrug it off as "people turning their backs on him."
-
When this case closes, I wonder if it will ever be open again
-
Wow, this is ridiculous. :tdwn
-
When this case closes, I wonder if it will ever be open again
Part of me wishes this were ban number 3.
But most of me is just angry you thought of it before me. :lol
-
Eh, no. We're "the fans." Our ex-fearless leader is suing the band for their name. We kinda have a right to be outraged. I get keeping things respectable and all, but Mike Portnoy needs to hear how disappointed his fans are with him over this. Even if he'll just shrug it off as "people turning their backs on him."
Be outraged at the global economy. Be outraged at what's happening in the Horn of Africa.
Don't be outraged over a band's name.
-
When this case closes, I wonder if it will ever be open again
Part of me wishes this were ban number 3.
But most of me is just angry you thought of it before me. :lol
Why ban number 3?
-
Eh, no. We're "the fans." Our ex-fearless leader is suing the band for their name. We kinda have a right to be outraged. I get keeping things respectable and all, but Mike Portnoy needs to hear how disappointed his fans are with him over this. Even if he'll just shrug it off as "people turning their backs on him."
Be outraged at the global economy. Be outraged at what's happening in the Horn of Africa.
Don't be outraged over a band's name.
Hm. I'll try.
Nope, still outraged.
RESISTANCE IS CALLING
TONIGHT
-
Petrucci and Mangini are of Italian background right?
I'm sure this can be settled "out of court".
...and James is French-Canadian, so it can be settled on the ice.
...and JM is of Korean background so it can be settled in an underground pit complete with broken glass shards glued to their hands.
...and Kevin Moore is....Irish, so they can have a dance-off, Irish gig style
...and Charlie Dominici is part alien, so he can use a mind melter death ray
-
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
I've defended Mike a lot over the years and given him the benefit of the doubt plenty of times when he's met with accusations from people online, but now I feel like that was completely unwarranted now. I'm doing my best to be as respectful as possible now, but I've gotta say, I won't be fooled again by anything Mike says.
-
You know what? This thread makes me really glad we have a lawyer running the site. :lol
Like most other people, I find it very difficult to understand the logic behind suing a band for moving on without you when you quit. It would support that he was bluffing with quitting, but I don't want to believe that. Maybe it's all about the business side to do with all that legal ramble that bosk said (given that he's a lawyer, I'll trust his assessment on that). If it's more about the money/business side, I think he has every right to compensation, but I would expect that could have been handled before it got to this point, so maybe it's something worse. And if that's the case, I'm disappointed that MP did this.
Given that this was filed months ago, and that MP's recent comments (even including on this topic) are looking more positive and less bitter than he has been in recent months, I'd like to think that this has been settled and that he truly has begun to move on, but the fact he did it obviously looks very bad for any long term reconciliation of the friendships he had with these guys, unfortunately.
-
Lol, someone (Bagelstein) on 5/8 said if MP wins the name DT they should buy the name Majesty for the ultimate troll. Does anyone know the status of the name these days? I can't imagine the band from back then is still around, and if they aren't perhaps the name wouldn't be too hard to get. :lol
-
cough. ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/RRvlw.png)
Flawless Victory
(https://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/HENOCBARRERA_7_photos/BABALITY.gif)
-
MP..oh..MP...out of u'r mind?
Speechless...
-
Wow, 13 pages in six hours, I'm proud of you guys.
-
So what's the worse case scenario if he won? just taking away the band name?
-
I hope DT's lawyer is a clown on a unicycle. Best court entrance ever.
-
DT should walk in the court room with a boombox blasting the beginning of Breaking All Illusions. That intro is winning to the exponential extreme. The judge would automatically have to give DT the win once he hears that.
-
It's a bit ironic that MP is lamenting the grind of 25 years of writing/touring with DT and needing a break while he is working on half a dozen side projects and touring with another band at the time. When MP wrote "Never Enough" to the fans, he should have looked in the mirror and instead wrote "Too Much". He just had too much on his plate and a burn-out was inevitable.
I don't have a horse in this race, but I just hope it all ends quickly.
-
I'm really curious how it will ends... hope it will be soon. If I was Portnoy... I would not want to put DT on a hiatus for sure...
-
These things can take months and sometimes years to fully work through. In the mean time, DT has an album to write and a tour to embark on. They can't wait around until all the legal issues are resolved. That takes time, and there's no reason they can't get on with their business while it is being worked out.
But I do remember DT guys (JP in particular) saying that they had to hold back announcement of the new drummer because there were legal issues to resolve. So the fact is, DT did wait even if it was for a short while and I'm assuming during this wait they got a clear picture from their lawyers about their standing with DT's name and royalties. I also assume this is exactly why JP, JR and JLB sounded more reserved in interviews about communication with Mike as opposed to him saying they "dissed" him.
What I'm saying is that I think/assume that DT did their homework, and while they might've not expected a lawsuit they however were prepared for it. And as people said earlier, from MP's tone in recent interviews we can also assume that the matter has been resolved.
-
As a musician, I have to say that situation like this is heart-broken.
As a lawyer (even though not a U.S. lawyer), I have to admit that MP has the right to do so. Please be noted that I am speaking of his "Legal Right". However, please be noted that we never know actual facts that are substantial for the analysis of the case.
Supposed there is shareholders agreement for shareholding of shares in Ytsejam between the band members. (Those who hold shares in Ytsejam may possibly include others that are not band members.) If the agreement is well-written, there may be Clause concerning the leaving of major shareholders contained in the agreement, of which possibilities are various. The leaving shareholder may have had agreed to offer his portion to the remaining shareholders proportionate to the number of shares they are holding, or to offer to ones nominated by the remaining shareholders, etc. The valuation of shares to be offered may have been mentioned in the agreement. It could be by issuance price, book-value, market price, assessment by third party, etc. What they have agreed in the agreement could be anything, and we never know. If there is nothing in the agreement mentioning of the leaving of shareholders, his right to hold share would remain and if the others would like him to sell his portion, they have no way but to talk business with him. It is understandable, as it is about business. I believe the agreement is quite well-written, as those issues are not raised by MP at all, as presented in the summon.
If it is about business, like the issue mentioned about, it is acceptable for me. However, according to the summon, I cannot see any business issue at all. It does not even sound like claims for damage asserted to be resulted from the breach of agreement. It sounds like a tort claim to me, especially for the word "wrongfully". However, it is not presented in the summon on which grounds such claims is actually based.
For the first point raised by MP, we could only guess from statement publicly released. There may be something more between them that has never been publicly announced. If it is as announced, the possibility to win this point is negative, IMHO. It was explicit that he was lost in the vote, either in aspect of being a shareholder or a director, and then expressed his consent to quit the band, i.e. Ytsejam Inc, as it seems to be. It may not be fair to him in terms of mates or friends, that no one agreed with him that the band should take 5-year break, but he was lost in the vote. IMHO, it could not be regarded as "wrongful" at all, as he was not forced to quit from the band or Ytsejam and it seems that no one was willing to kick him out, that it could be said that he was wrongfully excluded. I believe no one was, as they were all sincerely sad and heart-broken. However, we never know whether any reconcilement was offered to him, such as to make it 1 or 2-year other than 5-year which did not make him having no other choices at all but to quit. Still, I am quite certain that everyone has done their best, and the situation is so reluctant. On one hand, the timings were not so right for all of them, on the other hands, they are all have no choice but to carry one with the right persons that happen to be in the right time and the right place. I cannot see any element of "wrong" at all.
For the point concerning the name "Dream Theater", he did not claim that the band cease using the name "Dream Theater", but it seems like he wanted to claim his present or existence in the name. It could not be copyrighted for the name "Dream Theater", as it is not long or creative enough to possess originality. The possibility I could see is that "Dream Theater" is a registered trademark or service mark, and my guess is that Ytsejam holds the registration, not any individuals. I do not know much about U.S. laws, as I am a lawyer from the different side of the world, but I guess that, in this sense, consent from MP is not required.
At this point, I am so sorry for MP indeed. I can see that the name "Dream Theater" has been so important to him. I believe that it is not damages that he first thought of it as his right to the name of the band, but his relation and contribution to the name "Dream Theater" and as having been a band member for a major part of his life. If he is able to claim damage based on the ground of using it without consent, it means he deems that "Dream Theater" is a part of him forever, until the name does not exist any more. He would like to be recognized as a part of "Dream Theater" for ever, as least to him and current band members.
However, IMHO, as a lawyer, I always views that lawsuit should be the last resort for dispute resolution, when there is no other way that could be adopted. I am so sorry for all of them indeed. :(
-
It's a bit ironic that MP is lamenting the grind of 25 years of writing/touring with DT and needing a break while he is working on half a dozen side projects and touring with another band at the time. When MP wrote "Never Enough" to the fans, he should have looked in the mirror and instead wrote "Too Much". He just had too much on his plate and a burn-out was inevitable.
It's not ironic. From what I gather, it wasn't that he was tired of working at all, it was that he felt DT needed some time to refresh, which seems to have been brought on by playing with other bands and having much more fun with them. There is perhaps some irony in the fact that MP quit because he felt DT needed the break to reinvigorate them, and yet disagreeing and moving forth without him is exactly what achieved it for many people.
As much as I hate to admit it, this would have been the perfect time for the billionth rehash of the wife analogy. :lol
-
I can just see MP in court now...
"But your honor... my dad named the band..." ;)
-
(https://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10121415.jpg)
-
(https://www.esreality.com/files/inlineimages/2010/78195-triple%20face%20palm.jpg)
(https://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/demotivational-posters-quadruple-facepalm.jpg)
(https://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/3/2/1/9/9/9/3rd-55542517996.jpeg)
(https://www.killerhiphop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Chris-Brown-face-palm-300x180.jpg)
(https://img3.lln.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/09172008/6/0/a/8/60a8645e3ecc80_full.jpg)
(https://media.desura.com/cache/images/members/1/262/261341/thumb_940x3000/facepalm_.jpg)
-
Bosk and Kon - Thank you for your legal explanations of this.
I can't lie, after some careful thought on this subject (I have absolutely no idea why I'm thinking carefully about this subject)... I think MP does deserve, after 25 years of helping build the bands popularity and proffesional connections, some residual compensation. No matter what happens as far as lawsuits and settlements, he does deserve some compensation. I think a lawsuit is well within his rights.
I don't appreciate him saying that he isn't standing in the way of the band while simultaneously suing them for the name rights. All he had to say was, "Legal issues need to be settled, and I wish them the best of luck."
More or less. I don't see why MP wouldn't get money from DT. If a lawsuit is what he has to do to get it, business is business. I just hope he doesn't end up getting more money than any of the band members (like, if for some reason we found out MP was making more than a sixth of the band's money, I might scream with frustration about how even people leaving bands has no sense of justice). I like to take Major Thirteenth's posts with a grain of salt (he's right about as often as he's wrong), but a world where Portnoy's paid more than Mangini to not be in Dream Theater does not compute.
Regardless of that, it's really none of my fucking business.
It wouldn't have been except he sued over the name. Money's money. Business is business. Suing over the name for negotiating leverage means you're still acting like a scumbag. Maybe I'm looking at this overly negatively, but MP winning control over the band's name would DESTROY their business. As a fan of the band, the fact that MP even threatened to do this is frightening.
-
cough. ;D
*snip*
you just won the entire internet
-
Considering how much of a gong show this whole situation has turned into I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if MP decided he wanted to sue Avenged Sevenfold for continuing without him. At this point it's so way beyond ridiculous that this insane scenario doesn't even seem far-fetched.
-
Possessive obsessions selfish childish games
Vengeful resentments
Passing all the blame
Living out a life of decadence
Acing without thought of consequence
Spreading all your lies from coast to coast
While spitting on the ones that matter most
Running power mad with no control
Fighting for the credit they once stole
No one can ever tell you what to do
Ruling other's lives while the can't stand the thought of you
The sheer amount of Portnoy's own lyrics which now appear really, really hypocritical is both scary and downright funny.
-
I'm pretty sure that suing Dream Theater over the rights to their name forces a reconsideration of everything that Portnoy has said and done ever.
-
Oh. Obviously I read too much into the post I read over at MP's forum. Wey is not...in fact...quitting. Or he decided not to quit. So I guess I can't use that as a gauge as to how people "close" to Mike feel about all this. Well, that was weird. I could swear there was only one way to read all that...but obviously, there are several and I chose the wrong one. Last post about this guy...right here. Last post with this guy's name or with him as a subject.
I don't think Mike's the scum-of-the-earth because of all this. I don't know that he's been deceptive on purpose. It seems that way, but what do I know? All bands do this? I'm hearing that? All bands that have people split do this? Then I guess they all do it then. He's still St. Mike. Hey...my life is less than interesting, so I come here. Read a few things. Post a thing. I don't want anyone to feel bad. He's a drummer. He's under know legal obligation to be a swell guy. I stuck up for him last week. Sat right here and said I'd find it hard to be cool to people that have said what James and Jordan had said in recent interviews. Maybe I was wrong. It doesn't matter. Mike doesn't care what I think.
Everyone goes off in every direction. I just read a post over there where some guy tells Wey he's the "best guy he's encountered on the internet." Then he says he doesn't know him real good. I can't believe anyone who matters reads what we put out there anyway. It's different over on MP's forum I guess. I can see that. Anyway. This rant is done. Good luck Mike, MP forum, and everyone else associated with all that. I'm done with this subject.
He only came back because Mike's wife made him feel bad... and probably out of pity. This has gone beyond band matters, I think Mike's problems are getting or have gotten pretty personal in nature, and he fears for his career. I think that story of him kicking his tech kind of polarized everyone, it's interesting to see how everyone immediately calmed down about it when someone called it fake.
edit: yeah, just checked, people have gone back to willful ignorance over on the other forum.
-
I find the tech story super dubious. When the person who supposedly knows a story says 'I can't tell everyone anything more than salacious yet vague details' it's probably bullshit.
He only came back because Mike's wife made him feel bad
Heh. Probably.
-
I'm pretty sure that suing Dream Theater over the rights to their name forces a reconsideration of everything that Portnoy has said and done ever.
At least in the last few years.
-
Bosk and others, thanks for the legal insight. I know a little about company law from my accountancy studies, and thinking of the situation in that way makes a lot of sense. I do hope it is just that, but who knows if we'll ever find out.
-
So anyway, how about that Mangini? Damn he's good. :tup
-
I find the tech story super dubious. When the person who supposedly knows a story says 'I can't tell everyone anything more than salacious yet vague details' it's probably bullshit.
He only came back because Mike's wife made him feel bad
Heh. Probably.
I know right, he keeps saying "There's more to it then meets the eye, you're not getting the whole story, etc", but what could the rest of the story be and how can it possibly exonerate him from having sued DT? Is he saying he's NOT the bad guy in this? Because if so, then that can only be a shot at DT.
To me it sounds like he's being intentionally vague and the truth is as simple as we think it is.
You know a while back people were discussing the rumor that he sued DT. I made a post saying "so far the rumors have been completely true, and this is probably true as well" and as usual everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt, and AS USUAL the negative rumors about MP are true, not to mention it brought other stuff to the surface that may or may not be true. I think it's time to stop kissing ass and face that most us like, listen to and respect DT, and he isn't part of that sentiment any more. And as far as I can see this, AM is NOT a substitute for that. It's insane, that band sounds like almost all of the bad stuff from recent DT has been excised and turned into a separate band, and that band is AM. I can only imagine him sitting there and telling Russell Allen how to sing more "metul" to the point that he sounds at his absolute worst (and he's usual a mindblowing singer). It's mothafuckin psychosane.
I'm sorry, I get that it's sad for him and his career is at stake, and that some of this stuff degenerated way too far, but I stopped being a MP fan around SC when it started to become obvious that he was injecting his own idea of what Dream Theater should sound like because he got 'bored' or whatever of what they used to be like. And it wasn't just me, the feeling was widespread at least in my circle of DT fan friends. It became a bit of a joke to all of us, including here on the forum sometimes, although we kept giving him the benefit of the doubt. Now he quit, and not only has he taken the exact same musical style with him, but he's doing this stuff. It's kind of hard to care for him that much now beyond pity. I don't like using the word "respect", because that's an unfair thing to lose over creative differences, but suing the band that you basically "ARE", and the band that you left, is grounds for disrespect, no matter how much you apologize.
Everyone keeps asking why we're taking this so personally. We're taking it personally because a lot of us looked up to him musically, and some of use went into our current careers because at some point in our lives we discovered Dream Theater and him, and said "holy shit, this is nuts", and now we find out this has happened. If you've closed your eyes for the past three years, I get how you'd be dissapointed, but if you saw this coming years ago, there is less impact.
-
I find the tech story super dubious. When the person who supposedly knows a story says 'I can't tell everyone anything more than salacious yet vague details' it's probably bullshit.
He only came back because Mike's wife made him feel bad
Heh. Probably.
I know right, he keeps saying "There's more to it then meets the eye, you're not getting the whole story, etc", but what could the rest of the story be and how can it possibly exonerate him from having sued DT? Is he saying he's NOT the bad guy in this? Because if so, then that can only be a shot at DT.
To me it sounds like he's being intentionally vague and the truth is as simple as we think it is.
You know a while back people were discussing the rumor that he sued DT. I made a post saying "so far the rumors have been completely true, and this is probably true as well" and as usual everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt, and AS USUAL the negative rumors about MP are true, not to mention it brought other stuff to the surface that may or may not be true but is sickening either way. I think it's time to stop kissing ass and face that most us like, listen to and respect DT, and he isn't part of that sentiment any more. And as far as I can see this, AM is NOT a substitute for that. It's insane, that band sounds like almost all of the bad stuff from recent DT has been excised and turned into a separate band, and that band is AM. I can only imagine him sitting there and telling Russell Allen how to sing more "metul" to the point that he sounds at his absolute worst (and he's usual a mindblowing singer). It's mothafuckin psychosane.
I'm sorry, I get that it's sad for him and his career is at stake, and that some of this stuff degenerated way too far, but I stopped being a MP fan around SC when it started to become obvious that he was injecting his own idea of what Dream Theater should sound like because he got 'bored' or whatever of what they used to be like. And it wasn't just me, the feeling was widespread at least in my circle of DT fan friends. It became a bit of a joke to all of us, including here on the forum sometimes, although we kept giving him the benefit of the doubt. Now he quit, and not only has he taken the exact same musical style with him, but he's doing this stuff. It's kind of hard to care for him that much now beyond pity. I don't like using the word "respect", because that's an unfair thing to lose over creative differences, but suing the band that you basically "ARE", and the band that you left, is grounds for disrespect, no matter how much you apologize.
Everyone keeps asking why we're taking this so personally. We're taking it personally because a lot of us looked up to him musically, and some of use went into our current careers because at some point in our lives we discovered Dream Theater and him, and said "holy shit, this is nuts", and now we find out this has happened. If you've closed your eyes for the past three years, I get how you'd be dissapointed, but if you saw this coming years ago, there is less impact.
Trophy-post right here.
As this all unfolds, it's starting to seem like every bad thing anyone's ever dared to utter about Portnoy here was more true than fans at the time would have liked to admit.
-
Everyone keeps asking why we're taking this so personally. We're taking it personally because a lot of us looked up to him musically, and some of use went into our current careers because at some point in our lives we discovered Dream Theater and him, and said "holy shit, this is nuts", and now we find out this has happened. If you've closed your eyes for the past three years, I get how you'd be dissapointed, but if you saw this coming years ago, there is less impact.
This was worded beautifully, and I couldn't agree more.
-
not to mention it brought other stuff to the surface that may or may not be true but is sickening either way
If it's not true, I don't understand how it would be sickening.
I'm disgusted by all this as much as the next guy, but MP never struck me as a particularly violent person. I always take this kind of stories with a lot of caution, especially when they come out at MP's lowest point.
-
I know right, he keeps saying "There's more to it then meets the eye, you're not getting the whole story, etc", but what could the rest of the story be and how can it possibly exonerate him from having sued DT? Is he saying he's NOT the bad guy in this? Because if so, then that can only be a shot at DT.
To me it sounds like he's being intentionally vague and the truth is as simple as we think it is.
Wey said in his return letter that MP and his family were at risk of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars and a lawsuit. Why does this make MP look sympathetic? I know these things can be stressful, but they're also the consequences of filing such a high stakes lawsuit. You reap what you sow.
You know a while back people were discussing the rumor that he sued DT. I made a post saying "so far the rumors have been completely true, and this is probably true as well" and as usual everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt, and AS USUAL the negative rumors about MP are true, not to mention it brought other stuff to the surface that may or may not be true. I think it's time to stop kissing ass and face that most us like, listen to and respect DT, and he isn't part of that sentiment any more.
I... have to kind of agree.
Everyone keeps asking why we're taking this so personally. We're taking it personally because a lot of us looked up to him musically, and some of use went into our current careers because at some point in our lives we discovered Dream Theater and him, and said "holy shit, this is nuts", and now we find out this has happened. If you've closed your eyes for the past three years, I get how you'd be dissapointed, but if you saw this coming years ago, there is less impact.
Yep, 100% know what you mean. I'm in my current college major (Broadcasting) because my cousin gave me a bunch of music, I saw a folder labelled "Dream Theater" and clicked on The Dance of Eternity.mp3.
-
Thinking about it, DT was a band I got into 8 years ago and have more personal musical history with them than any any other band or artist in my collection, so this comes as very disappointing as well. I just read through these pages since I was offline all day and if someone had told me 13 months ago that this would all be going on, I'd have slapped them silly.
-
To quote this: https://www.courthousenews.com/2011/04/28/New_Complaints.htm
Portnoy's Complaint
MANHATTAN - Mike Portnoy claims his former bandmates in the rock band (nonparty) Dream Theater booted him out unfairly and are using the band's name unfairly. Click headline to see defendants.
Here are the defendants: John Petrucci, John Myung, James LaBrie, Jordan Rudess, Ytse Jams Inc., and Infinity Tours.
...And the statement he made in September 2010:
After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater....the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century.
I'm sorry but I just can't help doing this: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
IMO it's obvious that if you leave the band, you give up the rights to the band's name.
-
After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater....the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century.
I'm sorry but I just can't help doing this: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
IMO it's obvious that if you leave the band, you give up the rights to the band's name.
Yes. It would be different if DT disbanded, and then JP, JR, JLB, and JMX tried to reform excluding MP while still using the DT name - That's kinda what happened with Sublime. Brad died, so they broke up. Thirteen years later, Eric and Bud decided they wanted to do Sublime again, so they recruited Rome Ramirez to replace Brad and continue Sublime, but Brad's family bitched about them performing under the name 'Sublime', so they legally had to change their name to 'Sublime With Rome'. Not that anyone cares, just trying to make a connection. You know, give an example. :p
-
I agree with you guys from a moral/ethical/commonsense kind of standpoint. No matter what else happens, this piece of news probably ruined MP's career, or at least set it back by years.
But that's not the same as his legal ability to get the verdict/settlement he wants.
-
Well I'm still going to check out MMPLM, since that was recorded in January 2011, months before this all went down. And I like Neal Morse and Steve Morse.
In fact, I'll still check out MP related things as long as there are players I like, such as Transatlantic. However, MP being on such releases will not be the big draw for me anymore, especially due to his interest in mediocre music.
-
How much do you guys think this revelation is going to hurt Portnoy's future projects, especially in the short term?
He's going to lose some fans, that's for sure.
That will also mean The Mob.... losing some fans.
I said the same thing while talking to my buddy earlier tonight. Mike needs DT fans to support his shit. Alienate them and he has to start over. Dude has a built in audience for almost anything he does, and now he's shitting where he eats.
-
Now that I think of it... "Never enough" makes sense :D
Wow, all those 12 steps RIGHT DOWN THE DRAIN.
You know, I really looked up to Mike, as a mentor, damn I learned those odd times from his videos...
I thought he was this honest, down to earth guy.
But now THIS?!
I mean he's actively RUINING his "child" for nothing!
-
Maybe the members of DT are in fact enormous assholes and are threatening a disproportionately reactive counter-suit. If MP is to be believed (if that's even possible), DT lawyered up before he did. The whole story has yet to be told (although I have to believe Rich Wilson is going bonkers).
DT will have lawyered up as soon as MP formally told them he was quitting, or more likely they will have contacted lawyers that already dealt with the band's business and requested that they begin proceedings to formalise MP's exit. I'd have expected MP to contact his lawyers that early too.
I speculated a long time ago on MP's forum that the reason why members of the band hadn't responded to MP "reaching out" to them was because there were legal issues concerning the split and they'd been advised not to contact him personally and I still suspect it to be the case.
After all, if it were to come down to a court case then any personal emails would become fair game and the lawyers wouldn't want to find out that their case had been damaged by emails they knew nothing of.
I have to admit my first reaction to the lawsuit was one of anger and shock, but I think I need to retain an open mind. I suspect there's simply a disconnect between the two parties perceptions of how much MP should receive from DT's future earnings and they're simply going down the route of letting the courts arbitrate.
To the majority of us, who will only ever be employees of someone else's company, the idea of being sued is quite galling, but I don't think it's anything like as significant to a band that's been around as long as DT has and has already worked its way through a few ex-band members.
You mentioned, in his defense, that his family was in danger of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars? What about MP trying to destroy DT's career? What fact we aren't aware of makes his case even remotely sympathetic?
That bit is hilarious. There's no part of the possibility that he might lose that amount of money that makes me sympathetic to his plight. The mere fact that this point was made is indicative of how disconnected from every day reality he has gotten. I'm happy for him that he can risk blowing that amount of money in the first fecking place!
The first thing Portnoy should have done once he quit was hire a publicist to manage his public image. He's been his own worst enemy over the past year.
-
I have to admit my first reaction to the lawsuit was one of anger and shock, but I think I need to retain an open mind. I suspect there's simply a disconnect between the two parties perceptions of how much MP should receive from DT's future earnings and they're simply going down the route of letting the courts arbitrate.
Most of your post was insightful/informative/awesome, but I don't get this point. If MP only sued them for money, then I'd agree. But he sued them for partial control of the band name, which takes this into different territory entirely.
-
After thinking about it on and off throughout the day, I've come to the conclusion that there's precisely ONE possibility where I might find Mike's acts justified. That is, if the band actually tried to shaft him first, by not wanting to give him what he did actually deserve in terms of publishing and whatnot, and then he used an equally extreme measure in order to meet them halfway. Not a legal expert, though, so I don't know if that actually happens.
-
Most of your post was insightful/informative/awesome, but I don't get this point. If MP only sued them for money, then I'd agree. But he sued them for partial control of the band name, which takes this into different territory entirely.
From the lawyer's point of view he's trying to get the best deal for his client and the starting point for negotiations amounts to: "my client has not yet signed away his vested interest in Dream Theater's affairs and therefore Dream Theater continuing to trade without my client's express permission amounts to a serious breach of contract and thus we request the band to cease and desist trading and provide adequate compensation to my client."
i.e. I think it's the only bargaining chip the lawyers have on which to predicate the lawsuit and secure the best outcome for their client.
It looks really ugly to the fan and looks like he's threatening the future of the band, but I think it's fairly typical for lawyers to take the most extreme starting position possible so that when the negotiations really begin the opposing side will feel relieved when the middle ground that their client was actually aiming for is reached.
And if they do get a settlement that's close to their original demands they get to crow about it to future clients!
Lawyers get paid by the hour so it's always in their own interests to keep law suits dragging on and on. Sociopathic wankers, most of them :tdwn
-
I also wonder if it is what MP really wants that the remaining or current members decide to pay damages for MP to resolve the dispute and decide to change the name to overcome this requirement-of-consent thing which means that there would be no such a band named "Dream Theater" any more, as this is what that could be expected from lawsuit.
According to his earlier statement, he decided to quit as he thought that he did not want to deter other members in carrying on (as "Dream Theater", I supposed ?). Now that he filed lawsuit mentioning of the lack of his consent, as fas as the current members would like to carry on with the name "Dream Theater", it seems to me that he would like to be recognized as a part of "Dream Theater " forever. As according to the claim, the result that could be expected is that 'you can use the name as long as you pay and consent by MP is provided.
However, it could be expected that the current members would decide to change the name of the band, as it is not certain to rely on whether or not MP would provide or withdraw his consent.
The more I think of it, the more I feel so sorry for all of them :(:(
-
After thinking about it on and off throughout the day, I've come to the conclusion that there's precisely ONE possibility where I might find Mike's acts justified. That is, if the band actually tried to shaft him first, by not wanting to give him what he did actually deserve in terms of publishing and whatnot, and then he used an equally extreme measure in order to meet them halfway. Not a legal expert, though, so I don't know if that actually happens.
If he does have entitlement to something, there should be grounds or sources of it, such as agreement or legal provision. Unfortunately that there is none mentioned in the summon document. IMHO, this lawsuit is not about business only. I believe that most of business issues may have already been agreed upon, otherwise, it would have been raised in this lawsuit.
However, this would be just my vague and random guess as a lawyer, as lawyers may have different methods or style of handling the case. This lawsuit may be brought only as incentive for the other parties (the defendants) to consider establishing negotiation. Maybe the story would finally end beautifully through negotiation.... That is all I could hope for all of them.
-
Ok, so... how many lawyers do we have on DTF anyway?
-
If I get what you mean, Kon, it means that MP could be entitled money for ADToE, even if he isn't on it?
B.Lee
-
Ok, so... how many lawyers do we have on DTF anyway?
I was actually under the impression you had to be a lawyer to sign up here. Aren't you?
-
My first thought after reading the summons was that MP really does not want this case to go to a jury trial. The band's attorneys have plenty of ammunition to show MP in a very bad light. Especially if there have been any negotiations about extending the A7X gig or possibly even joining the band as a full member, those details will become public record in the possible trial and will make MP look quite bad. Note that I do not have any information that those negotiations have existed, but as the A7X members referred to MP's high salary, I am assuming that they must have discussed about it at some point.
-
If I get what you mean, Kon, it means that MP could be entitled money for ADToE, even if he isn't on it?
B.Lee
Don't take my opinion seriously, as there are numbers of possibilities because we never know the facts. Please also be noted that I am not a lawyer practicing in the U.S.
I would say it in general. As shareholder, consideration for your investment in form of shares in a company could be dividends distributed by the company from its profit from time to time depending on the class of share and the portion you hold. As long as you are a shareholder, you may be entitled to dividend once it is distributed.
Director may or may not be an employee and/or shareholder of the company. Employees could be shareholder and/or director. For a small or closely-held company, shareholders may also be directors and employees at the same time. There is also possibility that there are separate agreements regarding different issues between members of the company.
So, we never know. Even though we do know the facts, it is still not easy, even for a lawyer, as lots of interpretation and presumption may still be required. It may also depend on the aspect of viewing the case.
As a lawyer, I like it most when every parties to the dispute has a heart to reconcile, as the chance for them to lose relationship is negative, i.e. win-win situation is possible, while the lawsuit is usually about win and lose, it could even be a zero-sum.
-
My first thought after reading the summons was that MP really does not want this case to go to a jury trial. The band's attorneys have plenty of ammunition to show MP in a very bad light. Especially if there have been any negotiations about extending the A7X gig or possibly even joining the band as a full member, those details will become public record in the possible trial and will make MP look quite bad. Note that I do not have any information that those negotiations have existed, but as the A7X members referred to MP's high salary, I am assuming that they must have discussed about it at some point.
I'm no lawyer (unlike everyone else here apparently) but it's apparent to me that the deeper this goes and the longer this goes on, the more MP is going to get destroyed by DT's lawyers or failing that, he'll destroy his own reputation. I don't see how he can win, even if he does win the case he'll always be that guy who sued his own band, his best friends.
Some of us choose to live gracefully
Some can get caught in the maze
And lose their way home
Memories will fade
Time races on
What will they say after you're gone?
- This is The Life, John Petrucci.
-
Thanks for the enlightenment, Kon.
B.Lee
-
Am I the only one that had a wee chuckle at the pun on the Courthouse News Service website? 'Portnoy's Complaint'.
-
If I get what you mean, Kon, it means that MP could be entitled money for ADToE, even if he isn't on it?
B.Lee
Yep. For a key portion of their career he was instrumental in their success (how much so is a matter of debate) and the argument goes that without his prior involvement they wouldn't be in a position to be making a living off the band and thus any future earnings they receive are only possible because of his said prior involvement and therefore he is owed a portion of their future earnings... I think that's the rough argument anyway.
The following is just idle speculation and might be way off... Someone with experience of the kind of contracts bands use will hopefully be able to give us a clearer picture...
[speculation]
I would expect that any settlement would see that portion of earnings reduce over time as the band forges its own identity without MP.
However, I'm still fairly sure that the way bands set themselves up is that the members become the significant shareholders in the corporation that is the band and are paid out dividends from their shares each year rather than just drawing a fixed salary, thus unless they buy MP out then he retains a say in how the band conducts their business and still gets his dividend paid out at the end of the financial term.
I would guess that their contracts will have a clause that defines how much of the share-holdings then can retain if they quit, but I'm not sure if that's even legally possible.
Atm I'd expect MM to have little-to-no holdings in the DT corporation and he'll just be earning a fixed salary but over time he will gain more shares in the business.
[/speculation]
-
The sad part is that Mike Portnoy loses no matter the outcome of his lawsuit. If he wins the lawsuit he will probably be disliked by the majority of Dream Theater fans due to the nature of the recent events, and if he loses the lawsuit he is still the guy that sued Dream Theater.
-
Thanks, Cruithne!
B.Lee
-
to DT:
if we move on to the positive facts, ADTOE is a great peace of music,
they are coming to europe next year, i will be at at least three of the concerts including one m&g, since my SE CD didn't come yet i'm still hoping for the ticket for life and if the boys call themselves DT at the time or portnoys nightmare i don't give a crap.
to MP:
judging from my experiences in life, the moment you let the laywers take care of your business you are selling your soul to the
"Dark Master", sorry bosk nothing personal, in this forum you really do a wonderful job and you have a gift of explaining al these legal matters so everybody gets it, but i would always try to set things straight without lawyers beeing involved.
Suddenly you are not in the driver seat anymore, instead a passenger without much control. :facepalm:
I still wish MP all the best for the future, sooner or later he will be healed( he can always ask Neal Morse to guide hin the way). :loser :smiley:
-
Lol, someone (Bagelstein) on 5/8 said if MP wins the name DT they should buy the name Majesty for the ultimate troll. Does anyone know the status of the name these days? I can't imagine the band from back then is still around, and if they aren't perhaps the name wouldn't be too hard to get. :lol
I would like to know the answer to this as well. :p
-
Well the name Majesty has been free for use a couple years now :metal :metal
-
Kon, those were some really interesting posts, cheers for the insight! While I'm still disappointed by the existence of the lawsuit, there are so many possibilities that I'm not going to make assumptions or jump to conclusions.
-
Kon, those were some really interesting posts, cheers for the insight! While I'm still disappointed by the existence of the lawsuit, there are so many possibilities that I'm not going to make assumptions or jump to conclusions.
Thank you very much, ariich. I always prefer being a musician than a lawyer, or at least a musician that has certain knowledge of laws. However, what I am doing now is vice versa according to family matters. (It is just like what that being illustrated by the song "Far from Heaven". It is absolutely like that.) I am now a lawyer that just knows how to play music. Legal issues always look tragic to me, particularly when it happens to the band I love. :(:(
-
Kon, I've just realised you're a woman. Not that it changes anything, but it's nice to have some more girls on a mostly masculine forum! :tup
B.Lee
-
One question I didn't see asked here:
Remember when MP tried to rejoin DT "for the fans" and DT rejected him? Could that play against DT in this lawsuit? I know DT say they refused him because they already chose a new drummer and "moved on", but I also remember MP in an interview stressing that (from his perspective at least) when he asked to rejoin DT, MM wasn't announced "officially" yet.
I'm throwing the possibility that MP's lawyer could say that MP intended to still stay in the band, but because they refused then they "wrongfully excluded plaintiff from the Band"
Excuse the quotations' madness.
-
MM wasn''t announced yet but the legal procedure of becoming a DT member (f.e. all the contracts he had to sign with the band, the band's management and RoadRunner) was probably done by that time. So MM was an "official" member eventhough the public didn't know about it.
-
There is no way to know all the background to this lawsuit and the strategy behind it.
The only thing that comes to my mind now is that this guy really needs some PR advice!! Soon!!
-
For the record, I'll just say that after reading kon_jakae's posts, while it's clear to me as a lawyer that there are some relevant nuances of the American legal system that she is unaware of, the majority of what she is saying is dead on.
Cruithne, on the other hand, is way off base.
-
But I do remember DT guys (JP in particular) saying that they had to hold back announcement of the new drummer because there were legal issues to resolve.
That's funny, because I remember the band not explaining why they were holding back the announcement, and a bunch of fans speculating about legal issues. In fact, from the interviews I've seen, it seems that they held back on the announcement so that they could finish the documentary. I'd be very curious to see links to these statements you "remember" JP making.
-
" I once thought it better to be right.
But Now I have finally seen the light.
Sometimes You Got to be wrong and learn from mistakes.
I live with serenity now.
Not self righteous hate."
-
For the record, I'll just say that after reading kon_jakae's posts, while it's clear to me as a lawyer that there are some relevant nuances of the American legal system that she is unaware of, the majority of what she is saying is dead on.
Cruithne, on the other hand, is way off base.
Now you are just being a sociopathic wanker :tdwn
-
For the record, I'll just say that after reading kon_jakae's posts, while it's clear to me as a lawyer that there are some relevant nuances of the American legal system that she is unaware of, the majority of what she is saying is dead on.
Cruithne, on the other hand, is way off base.
Now you are just being a sociopathic wanker :tdwn
What do you mean "now?"
-
(https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/forumavatars/avatar_2_1316205131.jpg)
-
I expect to be. I'm British and not a lawyer :)
I've had plenty of personal contract dealings of my own over the years and due to being quite senior in a few companies (one of them a start-up where I was quite close to one of the directors and nearly invested in the company myself) I've had indirect exposure to how Limited companies operate in the UK, and since I have one or two friends who actually run/ran companies I get second hand information from them about contract negotiations, dealings with lawyers and so forth... but I have no direct experience of my own.
So I'm just making semi-educated guesses with no real authority whatsoever :) I hoped I was quite clear that that's what I was doing though, but according to my wife I have a habit of being able to sound quite authoritative about subjects I actually know nothing about :loser:
-
Actually, looking back at your posts, you actually do give some good insight in some areas.
But as far as being wrong in others, yeah, I would just chalk it up to being British. You guys are generally wrong about most things. :ariich:
-
boskowned!
-
I've been waiting for a rule against British English on this forum for a long time.
-
I feel like Mike's departure statement and everything said on social media and internet forums all over will be plenty of evidence against Portnoy.
-
Actually, looking back at your posts, you actually do give some good insight in some areas.
I call it luck :justjen
But as far as being wrong in others, yeah, I would just chalk it up to being British. You guys are generally wrong about most things. :ariich:
But we make up for it by knowing how to make a nice cup of tea :tup
-
Actually, looking back at your posts, you actually do give some good insight in some areas.
But as far as being wrong in others, yeah, I would just chalk it up to being British. You guys are generally wrong about most things. :ariich:
FAIL.
-
But as far as being wrong in others, yeah, I would just chalk it up to being British. You guys are generally wrong about most things. :ariich:
But we make up for it by knowing how to make a nice cup of tea :tup
[/quote]
True. And you have Ribena.
-
I've been waiting for a rule against British English on this forum for a long time.
Why on Earth would you ban correct English? ???
-
I've been waiting for a rule against British English on this forum for a long time.
Why on Earth would you ban correct English? ???
Backed hard.
-
I've been waiting for a rule against British English on this forum for a long time.
Why on Earth would you ban courrect English? ???
FTFY
-
Well, one thing's for sure: MP should have no problem keeping his fan happy. The one that's remaining.
rumborak
-
Well, one thing's for sure: MP should have no problem keeping his fan happy. The one that's remaining.
rumborak
Following MP's forum today has been interesting. In the beginning, every other comment was something negative or respectfully (or direspectfully) critical. Midway through the day, every other common was under that "flagged" status where it can no longer been seen. Now, at the end of the day, nearly every comment is gone but the "we got you Mike you're our guy" types. Mike's facebook has pretty much been handled the same way.
Oddly, someone reposted Smirnoff's accusation that Mike kicked his drum tech in the head for making a mistake during the Drum Clinic. Mike denied it, but then the entire thread was removed shortly after. Thought that was really, really weird. And honestly, smelled of a cover up.
Mike's latest post was something like "thanks for all the positive comments while we weed out the trolls." I guess "trolls" is what rightfully disappointed fans are to him now.
-
Wey quit too? Holy shit.
How the mighty have fallen.
rumborak
-
Ok, but people are not pointing out any of that, but taking everything at a very personal level. They're showing a great deal of disappointment and lost of respect ("there goes the last bit of my respect towards him"...like anybody would give a damn)towards MP, and they seem so affected to the point of making fun of him with offensive jokes (like the ones related to his drinking problem). I don't know, I just can't feel any of that. To me, he's just a guy who makes music I like, not some sort of idol or role model. Otherwise, if I cared for the artist's I like personal lives, my own life would be a hell :lol
The problem for me is, I NEED to respect the musician's I listen to. Maybe that's just me. Examples for me are Neil Young and Eddie Vedder. I used to love them till they got ultra political with the music. At that point I lost respect and all interest in their music. It doesn't matter whether they're ultra talented or not to me. Another example, yet not music related, is Vick. So I guess it works with more than just music for me.
Huge difference: Neil Young and Eddie Vedder are guys whose music is influenced by their political leanings; Michael Vick tortured and murdered dogs.
I don't know how long you've been listening to music, but a lot of guys have done a lot of bad things.
"Trust the tale, not the teller".
Of course there's a difference, The point I was trying to make was that for ME, I need to respect/like the person to listen to their music or root for them in a sporting event.
-
I've thought about the situation a little more and I feel that if you personally make the decision to walk away from something (a group, a company, a band) it is irrelevant how much work you put into it in the past. You should think about the future of the entity without you and how you will feel about not being a part of it prior to leaving. I see people using the "If it was you you would do the same" argument. No, I wouldn't. If you quit your job and the company does really well down the road, you don't make any extra money.
Now, if the guys made some type of agreement (ie 'We'll split, but we'll keep you posted' or something like that) then it's different, but that's not public obviously.
MP winning this essentially gives him control over a band that he isn't in. To what extent he would use it is unknown, but it sounds like he could have final say on anything he wants; which sounds like a horrible way to be a musician (for the band members).
-
Well, one thing's for sure: MP should have no problem keeping his fan happy. The one that's remaining.
rumborak
Following MP's forum today has been interesting. In the beginning, every other comment was something negative or respectfully (or direspectfully) critical. Midway through the day, every other common was under that "flagged" status where it can no longer been seen. Now, at the end of the day, nearly every comment is gone but the "we got you Mike you're our guy" types. Mike's facebook has pretty much been handled the same way.
Oddly, someone reposted Smirnoff's accusation that Mike kicked his drum tech in the head for making a mistake during the Drum Clinic. Mike denied it, but then the entire thread was removed shortly after. Thought that was really, really weird. And honestly, smelled of a cover up.
Mike's latest post was something like "thanks for all the positive comments while we weed out the trolls." I guess "trolls" is what rightfully disappointed fans are to him now.
Anything except taking the blinders off I guess.
-
That's been the biggest disappointment ever since the first wave of fans (according to him) "turning on him" when he got called out on being disrespectful to James LaBrie and apologized not for "being wrong" but for "the fans being upset" or something like that. He really seems to be ducking out of being responsible for his words or actions in any way. As plenty of people have pointed out over the past year, he wrote out the whole 12 Step Suite but you've got to wonder if he really learned anything from it or whether it was really just more chest-pounding.
-
Kon, I've just realised you're a woman. Not that it changes anything, but it's nice to have some more girls on a mostly masculine forum! :tup
B.Lee
This didn't strike you as creepy when you wrote it?
-
Yesterday was s huge rollercoaster ride. Now today after seeing it all in the rear view mirror and questioning what
really happened with Wey, I still don't know who the real Mike Portnoy is. Is he the arrogant, self absorbed, spotlight
seeking guy that so many people have said in years past and that I loyally defended against, or is he a stand up
guy that is being attacked? I really don't know any more.
-
I'm guessing the going price of my copy of A Dramatic Turn of Events signed by Portnoy just skyrocketed.
-
Yesterday was s huge rollercoaster ride. Now today after seeing it all in the rear view mirror and questioning what
really happened with Wey, I still don't know who the real Mike Portnoy is. Is he the arrogant, self absorbed, spotlight
seeking guy that so many people have said in years past and that I loyally defended against, or is he a stand up
guy that is being attacked? I really don't know any more.
A little of both, I'd think.
-
Yesterday was s huge rollercoaster ride. Now today after seeing it all in the rear view mirror and questioning what
really happened with Wey, I still don't know who the real Mike Portnoy is. Is he the arrogant, self absorbed, spotlight
seeking guy that so many people have said in years past and that I loyally defended against, or is he a stand up
guy that is being attacked? I really don't know any more.
He's a person, and none of us are perfect. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
-
I'm guessing the going price of my copy of A Dramatic Turn of Events signed by Portnoy just skyrocketed.
I demand to know the full story behind this.
-
That's been the biggest disappointment ever since the first wave of fans (according to him) "turning on him" when he got called out on being disrespectful to James LaBrie and apologized not for "being wrong" but for "the fans being upset" or something like that. He really seems to be ducking out of being responsible for his words or actions in any way. As plenty of people have pointed out over the past year, he wrote out the whole 12 Step Suite but you've got to wonder if he really learned anything from it or whether it was really just more chest-pounding.
In the same vein, I always wondered from day 1 how fair HTF was to the real situation with his stepfather. All we saw was his version, and as usual there was not an ounce of remorse to be found in the lyrics.
rumborak
-
I'm guessing the going price of my copy of A Dramatic Turn of Events signed by Portnoy just skyrocketed.
I demand to know the full story behind this.
LoL, did he know what he was signing? :D
-
In the same vein, I always wondered from day 1 how fair HTF was to the real situation with his stepfather. All we saw was his version, and as usual there was not an ounce of remorse to be found in the lyrics.
What are you saying? That Mike Portnoy has become the rotted root in the Dream Theater family tree? ;) :P
"Never in my life have I seen someone so blind to the damage he has done."
-
BTW, what did Wey say? Is that still on MP.com? Or was that "cleansed" too?
rumborak
-
https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=163514
-
BTW, what did Wey say? Is that still on MP.com? Or was that "cleansed" too?
rumborak
Can't be bothered digging back, but everything that was said is in this thread somewhere. The key word being "somewhere".
-
I've thought a lot about the TSS in the past year and after all that's happened, it has little to no meaning for me whatsoever. However, the music is great no doubt about that.
-
BTW, what did Wey say? Is that still on MP.com? Or was that "cleansed" too?
rumborak
I did it for you because I'm bored...
From Wey at MP.com forums
I can no longer be a party to cleaning up these messes. After working for Mike for peanuts and perks for 11 and a half years, Todays revealing by Blabbermouth is pretty much the final straw. I feel that I have been lied to after doing all that I can to keep this site peaceful, free of the bullshit drama and going to bat for MP and defending him to the point where I feel sometimes that I am the most hated person in the Dream Theater community. I can no longer feel that my integrity and morals are not compromised.
Those of you that want or need to get ahold of me, know how to find me. If not, a simple check of Google will provide you with 5 other emails you can use to contact me. I'll check in every now and again, but at this time, my post will probably be removed and my IP address banned.
After reading the threads that have been posted since earlier today when I resigned my position as moderator here, and seeing the direction things are going, I need to clear this up before it gets more out of hand than it already is.
Mike has known me now for the better part of 11 years, and during that time, he's come to value my opinion on matters regarding the rules of this site and how they are enforced. We have a trust in place. In that regard, he also knows like many of you, that I have a low tolerance for bullshit, and I hate being lied to.
So today when I saw the Blabbermouth article and the PDF regarding the lawsuit, I like many of you, jumped to a concussion that the entire truth was blurred. As Mike trusts me, I trust him as well and trust that he would not lie to me about things. Especially when those things usually involve me sitting in front of the computer for endless hours every day trying to keep his internet home free of messes and negativity every time he posts, says something in an interview, or tweets.
Now, while some of you may think I have the "inside scoop" on everything going on between DT and MP, that is the farthest thing from the truth. Yes, I work(ed) for MP, and yes I am also an employee of Dream Theater as a contracted internet consultant and manager of a few of their internet properties. However, in regards to all the legal actions taking place, neither party has been at liberty to discuss anything involved in the case with me as I am not directly involved and honestly I won't impose on friendships to ask. I, like you all, only know of rumors and speculations and what has been whispered in dark corners of the internet.
Now, being that I am (was) the one responsible for having to spend my time cleaning up the mess, you can understand my displeasure at the revealing of the information that came to light today and the ensuing mess that is still continuing. I also felt that the faith I had in MP to be as truthful with the fans as he has always been in the past wasn't as concrete as I had envisioned.
I only do (did) this job for as long as I did because I respected MP as both a person and a friend. Over the years I have seen him do countless selfless things for his fans. One thing in particular always comes to mind, he spent hours digging through his basement one night to find an original 1996 ACOS Home For The Holidaze shirt for a fan who had been wearing one the night of The Station fire and had had to have the shirt surgically removed from his skin. So you can imagine my feelings of betrayal when I saw this lawsuit information and jumped to the conclusion that Mike had been lying to all of us fans for the last 6 months. I don't like liars, I don't like feeling stabbed in the back as either a friend or a fan, and that is how I felt, plain and simple.
I went so far as lashing out and being quite snarky to Mike in my resignation letter. So much so that I got a call from Marlene after he sent it to her.
Now Marlene can't go into details about the lawsuit, I respect that. That is something that could cost her and Mike hundreds of thousands of dollars and a lawsuit. As a friend, I do not want to see that happen. I have a lot of trust in Marlene, and when she tells me that I'm wrong about judging Mike this way, I can tell from the sincerity in her voice that she's not just standing up for Mike but that she's being honest. I have to admit I was wrong in my feelings that Mike had betrayed my trust and the trust of the fans. My quitting was not intended to do further damage to Mike, and sadly, that is how most of you have taken it as I was rather blunt with my wording. Those of you who know me well know that that is how I am. I don't pull punches, but I will be the first to admit I was wrong. I was wrong (DebraKadaba is currently calling the Guiness Book Of World Records to get them to put it in writing.)
We will never know the full details of the lawsuit, we aren't entitled to know. Mike doesn't deserve the crap he gets around the internet. I know, I clean the majority of it up here and see it everywhere else. He's a good guy, and a great friend, and any single one of you, having the feeling that a friend lied to you would not sit well. That is where I was coming from with my resignation. That thread was closed and I understand why. It was doing more damage to Mike than the actual Blabbermouth article. But in hindsight and after talking to Marlene, I was wrong in my judgement of the situation, and not knowing the facts, did what the rest of you are currently doing.
Let's put an end to this for all parties involved. No one, not Mike, not Dream Theater, is benefiting from it.
Look, I know you post here, but I'm sorry. I can't get on board with any of this.
Maybe there's a secret side to the story I still don't know about, which is always possible. Maybe the members of DT are in fact enormous assholes and are threatening a disproportionately reactive counter-suit. If MP is to be believed (if that's even possible), DT lawyered up before he did. The whole story has yet to be told (although I have to believe Rich Wilson is going bonkers).
But if what we know about the situation is accurate, I don't know what you're seeing that I'm not. I can read a court document. Mike Portnoy sued DT to gain control over their name. In no way can I respect this. He flat out said it wasn't happening when it was. He tried to make it look like DT was blowing him off when he's the one that filed a lawsuit. At some point, no matter what anyone says, actions speak far louder than words, and MP's actions are especially clear.
I know MP is your friend. I know that, like all people, MP thinks he's the good guy. I thought the ACOS tour story was very touching. But as someone who can affirmatively say I used to be a fan, I think MP needs to get his fucking act together.
You mentioned, in his defense, that his family was in danger of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars? What about MP trying to destroy DT's career? What fact we aren't aware of makes his case even remotely sympathetic?
-
So yesterday he said he couldn't comment on anything because of pending legal issues and today he had
his lawyer contact B-mouth to say there is no pending lawsuit. WTF. I'm more confused than ever. If there
was no pending lawsuit he could hav spilled his guts yesterday. Marlene wouldn't have needed to call Wey
and rope him into apologizing. A big WTF.
-
Petrucci and Mangini are of Italian background right?
I'm sure this can be settled "out of court".
Oh, god, post of the year right here.
-
So yesterday he said he couldn't comment on anything because of pending legal issues and today he had
his lawyer contact B-mouth to say there is no pending lawsuit. WTF. I'm more confused than ever. If there
was no pending lawsuit he could hav spilled his guts yesterday. Marlene wouldn't have needed to call Wey
and rope him into apologizing. A big WTF.
Just because the suit is (may be) over, doesn't mean he can talk about it.
-
So yesterday he said he couldn't comment on anything because of pending legal issues and today he had
his lawyer contact B-mouth to say there is no pending lawsuit. WTF. I'm more confused than ever. If there
was no pending lawsuit he could hav spilled his guts yesterday. Marlene wouldn't have needed to call Wey
and rope him into apologizing. A big WTF.
Just because the suit is (may be) over, doesn't mean he can talk about it.
That doesn't explain how Wey had to be guilt-tripped back into modding the forums over at MP.com. What Marlene told him doesn't tally with there being no impending lawsuit.
-
https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=163514
Take note that it was DT's lawyer that contacted BM not MP's according to the article. Just in case people miss that part.
:corn :corn
-
No lawsuit. https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=28033.0